"jtprindl, anybody can see now who you believe and where your ideas came from. His picture is right above ja ja ja it made my day I'll have a smoothy to celebrate"

I can see his picture but where are yours?

Also, none of the claims in his article are his original ideas, they are all referenced. He didn't invent human physiology, a la dietary ketosis not causing acidosis in healthy individuals.

suncloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> First though: Only about 10% of fat can be used
> for producing glucose - in a process call
> gluconeogenesis - whereas 58% of protein produces
> glucose in that same process. The 10% comes from
> the glycerol portion of fat, which is kind of like
> the fat backbone. About 90% of fat never converts
> to glucose, and this conversion is not necessary
> for fat to produce energy.
>
> Fats, carbs, and proteins all break down into
> Acetyl CoA, which is the component that enters the
> Krebs Cycle and produces energy. Krebs Cycle is a
> function of the mitochondria.
>
> Glucose is unique in that it can produce energy
> via another procedure as well, called anaerobic
> glycolysis, meaning that unlike the Krebs cycle,
> it doesn't require oxygen and it doesn't require
> mitochondria. Anaerobic glycolysis doesn't pump
> out as much energy, but it pumps out energy faster
> and comes in handy for that reason. Plus it
> provides energy for cells that lack mitochondria
> like red blood cells (RBC). So for instance, when
> we first begin to exercise, Krebs Cycle takes a
> while to get moving, so we rely on anaerobic
> glycolysis - glucose fed - to supply that first
> round of energy and the energy needed to kickstart
> the Krebs Cycle. Also, say we're on a run,
> running steady, running mostly from energy
> supplied by Krebs Cycle, and then we start up a
> steep hill. Now we're suddenly using maximum
> oxygen, breathing hard, pumping Krebs Cycle to the
> max. That's when anaerobic glycolysis kicks in to
> supply the extra energy we need without using up
> extra oxygen.
>
> The recommended minimum carbs per day as an
> average sustainable dietary regime is 130 grams,
> which is about 520 Calories per day (130g X 4).
> That's close to about 25% of the caloric ratio for
> someone consuming 2000 Calories a day.
>
> Multiply protein grams by 4 to get # of Calories.
>
> Multiply fat grams by 9 to get # of Calories.
>
> Specifically, I don't know how many of those 520
> carb Calories are required just to maintain the
> function of RBC, but according to
> [www.nature.com]
> daptation-of-nutrient-utilization-in-humans-142328
> 07 , "Although not highly metabolically active,
> RBC are abundant, resulting in the continual
> uptake of glucose molecules from the bloodstream."
> Plus, as mentioned above, only glucose can
> provide energy through anaerobic glycolysis, which
> is a very necessary function for overall
> homeostatic maintenance, and not just during
> exercise.
>
> If we don't have enough stored glucose, our bodies
> break down protein to supply the glucose needed.
> Ketones spare both protein and glucose, but they
> cannot run anaerobic glycolysis, which is why we
> move s-l-o-w-l-y when we fast.
>
> Those 130 grams (520 Calories) cited above most
> likely include glucose as the preferred energy
> source for the brain, i.e. not during
> fasting/ketosis. Fat molecules cannot pass
> through the blood brain barrier, which is why the
> brain normally relies on glucose for energy.
> However, as you know, the brain and most other
> cells can substitute ketones for glucose during
> fasting or ketogenic diet. Ketones however cannot
> replace all fuel necessary for the body, and there
> are some known side effects of ketogenic diet over
> time, due in part to chronic acidosis. One of the
> most serious side effects can be acute
> pancreatitis, which can have some serious hormonal
> and digestive consequences.
>
> [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]
> 5/
>
> This is not an endorsement of a low fat raw food
> diet. But as you might have noticed, it's also
> not an endorsement of a low carb raw food diet.
>
> I personally like fats and carbs and proteins; or
> more specifically, I like food - a lot.
>
> I'm also in favor of an occasional and even
> regular water fast. It seems to me (and this is
> just opinion) that whereas ketogenic diet may have
> the potential to mess with normal homeostasis, a
> good water fast balances molecular consitituents
> and thereby assists in homeostasis. That's just a
> personal perception and not intended at all to be
> presented as fact.
>
> > It would probably be a different story if red
> > blood cells had no mitochondria from the get go
> > but they do when they are forming.
>
> Well yes, but energy produced by mitochondria
> during RBC formation is used for RBC formation.
>
> > Here's a cool photo of red blood cells ejecting
> > their nuclei, where their mitochondria, etc,
> live
> > before the cells mature.
> >
> >
> [wi.mit.edu]-
>
> > cells-nuke-their-nuclei
>
> Yes, cool photo! And thank you for your presence
> here on the forum!

Thanks suncloud! I haven't yet, but will, read the nature link thoroughly .

Even if only 10% of our fat is available for producing glucose that should be more than adequate for such passive operations as red blood cell O2 transport, etc,, shouldn't it? I recognize that for life threatening situations, like being chased by a lion across the savannah, as StephanieKetoPerson puts it, anaerobic glycolysis is important but that, thank goodness, doesn't happened all that often or our species would probably have big adrenal problems, (Yes I'm being facetious - I know our species does have big adrenal problems.) In any case, there are even runners who are on at least keto adapted diets that eat way less than the "recommended" 130 carbs a day. I don't think that number has much to do with anything I know of for high fat diets at least.

It is my understanding that the "chronic acidosis" and acute pancreatitis problems are not applicable to dietary ketogenic diets of people who are not diabetics and don't have underlying metabolic disorders. If you know differently I would love to read about it if you have some links you could share. In fact, it is my understanding that when insulin is brought into lower, and steady, levels the pancreas is spared all the drama and has energy to produce more human growth hormones which slow the aging process.

Yeah, I know the fetal red blood cells mitochondria probably use all their energy for their own growth but it seems to me they have a pretty easy sail from there on out, energy expenditure wise, lol.

I'm not really endorsing anyone go on the diet I'm on but I am happy to report that my blood sugar, lipid panel, and digestion problems that stemmed from My 11 month hclf diet experiment have completely turned around for the better after being on a 65% fat and 100 carb a day diet for a year and a half.

I don't have a problem with doing water fasts now and then. It just makes sense, to me, to give the body a break from digesting especially at change of season times.

And thank YOU for YOUR presence on this forum! I really appreciate it!

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Thanks suncloud! I haven't yet, but will, read the
> nature link thoroughly .
>
> Even if only 10% of our fat is available for
> producing glucose that should be more than
> adequate for such passive operations as red blood
> cell O2 transport, etc,, shouldn't it?

Sorry SueZ, I don't really know.

>I
> recognize that for life threatening situations,
> like being chased by a lion across the savannah,
> as StephanieKetoPerson puts it, anaerobic
> glycolysis is important but that, thank goodness,
> doesn't happened all that often or our species
> would probably have big adrenal problems, (Yes I'm
> being facetious - I know our species does have big
> adrenal problems.) In any case, there are even
> runners who are on at least keto adapted diets
> that eat way less than the "recommended" 130 carbs
> a day. I don't think that number has much to do
> with anything I know of for high fat diets at
> least.
>
> It is my understanding that the "chronic acidosis"
> and acute pancreatitis problems are not
> applicable to dietary ketogenic diets of people
> who are not diabetics and don't have underlying
> metabolic disorders.
>
>If you know differently I
> would love to read about it if you have some links
> you could share.

Since I'm out of school now, I don't (yet) have the same access to studies that I had previously; but from what I was able to find, most of the longer-term studies have been on children with epilepsy. I couldn't find any long-term studies on adults. This link is a 6-year study on epileptic children:

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Children often provide reliable results because they are healthier than many adults. Out of 129 subjects, 22 subjects (17%) had serious complications and had to stop the diet. 4 children died - 2 of sepsis, 1 of cardiomyopathy, and one of lipoid pneumonia. Others experienced a variety of conditions and complications.

Besides this, I can only relate that I personally know of one case where a young man with epilepsy was on a ketogenic diet for 12 years (from age 17 - 29), and recently went off it after his health began to radically decline. He is of medium height and weighed around 110 pounds last I heard.

He was on the classic very high fat ketogenic diet though, with a ratio of 4:1 fat to non-fat grams (grams, not Calories).

>In fact, it is my understanding
> that when insulin is brought into lower, and
> steady, levels the pancreas is spared all the
> drama and has energy to produce more human growth
> hormones which slow the aging process.

I hadn't heard that about the pancreas being spared and producing more human growth hormones that slow the aging process. Sounds a little suspicious - especially the part about slowing the aging process ($$$$$) - but I can't say that I know about this.

Something to consider is that the pancreas secretes both endocrine (hormone) cells and exocrine cells (digestive enzymes). Pancreatic enzymes digest approximately 50% of carbs/proteins and 80% - 90% of all ingested fat, so a diet very high in fat will have the pancreas working pretty hard to secrete adequate pancreatic lipase, colipase, bicarbonate, etc. plus water. Water is very important for producing "pancreatic juice".

So drink lots!

> Yeah, I know the fetal red blood cells
> mitochondria probably use all their energy for
> their own growth but it seems to me they have a
> pretty easy sail from there on out, energy
> expenditure wise, lol.
>
> I'm not really endorsing anyone go on the diet I'm
> on but I am happy to report that my blood sugar,
> lipid panel, and digestion problems that stemmed
> from My 11 month hclf diet experiment have
> completely turned around for the better after
> being on a 65% fat and 100 carb a day diet for a
> year and a half.

If you're feeling good and enjoying this diet, that's what counts! Do you mean 100 carb grams or 100 carb Calories?

IMO, an advantage you have is that you are vegan.

It's good you're checking labs. For monitoring pancreatic health: AST and ALT.

> I don't have a problem with doing water fasts now
> and then. It just makes sense, to me, to give the
> body a break from digesting especially at change
> of season times.
>
> And thank YOU for YOUR presence on this forum! I
> really appreciate it!

Take care SueZ!

suncloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SueZ Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]
> 5/

Thanks, that gave me a list of things to keep an eye out for. I'm pretty sure there aren't too many people in studies that eat raw vegan fats so I agree with you on it being at the very least an advantage. Do you think these studie people will ever come to know to make the distinction between such things as raw and vegan fats and GMO vs. organically grown heirloom produce? It's such a major built in flaw!



>
> I hadn't heard that about the pancreas being
> spared and producing more human growth hormones
> that slow the aging process. Sounds a little
> suspicious - especially the part about slowing the
> aging process ($$$$$) - but I can't say that I
> know about this.

I don't know either but I'll be watching Stephanie on youtube to see what happens with her. I'm not on a ketogenic diet myself although I think I do slip in and out of ketosis sometimes.

> Something to consider is that the pancreas
> secretes both endocrine (hormone) cells and
> exocrine cells (digestive enzymes). Pancreatic
> enzymes digest approximately 50% of carbs/proteins
> and 80% - 90% of all ingested fat, so a diet very
> high in fat will have the pancreas working pretty
> hard to secrete adequate pancreatic lipase,
> colipase, bicarbonate, etc. plus water. Water is
> very important for producing "pancreatic juice".
>
> So drink lots!

I do drink at least a gallon of liquids a day. I have in the past needed to supplement with digestive enzymes but am doing very well without them now.


> If you're feeling good and enjoying this diet,
> that's what counts! Do you mean 100 carb grams or
> 100 carb Calories?

I meant 100 carb grams.



> It's good you're checking labs. For monitoring
> pancreatic health: AST and ALT.

My AST and ALT have always been ok. After the 11 months on hclf raw diet, in addition to blood sugar, tryglyceride, some other lipid readings out of normal range, my lipid panel is now good again after a year and a half of 65% fat.

> Take care SueZ!

I will, and you too! I get blood tests done every year to monitor. I wish everyone would. Things can go wrong without giving signals sometimes.

Various doctors say that in order for ketosis to happen the body needs to consume less than 100 grams of carb per day, and if one consumes nuts and seeds each day along with plenty greens, it going to be difficult for a vegan to get into ketosis. Not that l think ketosis is harmful or undesirable.

As for the acidosis idea....obviously it can occur in the long term if one's diet is poor or one is in poor health, but there is no reason for it to occur if one eats a healthy diet (non processed or chemical food) with all the nutrients provided in good amounts. The kidneys and the lungs regulate the acid/alkaline balance, so acidosis should not occur if one eats properly and has good health.


The big question - what fuels do people in ketosis use....looks like they still have adequate glucose and also use ketones

Here is one peer reviewed paper that sheds question over everything Suncloud has been claiming. People might want to read it. The paper claims ketosis is not harmful for healthy people and the body, but it also runs contrary to Suncloud's idea when the paper states:

"Contrary to popular belief supported by the leading physiology and biochemistry textbooks, there is sufficient population of glucose transporters in all cell membranes at all times to ensure enough glucose uptake to satisfy the cell's respiration, even in the absence of insulin"

Suncloud stated:

"the brain and most other cells can substitute ketones for glucose during fasting or ketogenic diet. Ketones however cannot replace all fuel necessary for the body"


I say that it does not look like the body has to run on mainly keytones and be starved of glucose, it still looks like the body can run on sufficient glucose and ketones during ketosis. Please let me know your thoughts Suncloud.


Metabolic Effects of the Very-Low-Carbohydrate Diets: Misunderstood "Villains" of Human Metabolism

Anssi H Manninen
[www.jissn.com]


From the various doctors l have also listened to, they seem to say ketosis is not a problem for health people either. I think there is more going on than most people think in regards to ketosis. If youy google for research papers on the dangers of ketosis, it is all positive [for healthy people]. .

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/30/2014 09:52PM by The Sproutarian Man.

Here is a man l resonate with despite his preference for animal products. Dr. Jeff Volek clears up the many confusions on ketogenic diets.

[www.ketogenic-diet-resource.com]

Some quotes from Dr Volek:


"The process of gluconeogenesis can make all the glucose the brain needs, once the body is keto-adapted (good at burning ketones for fuel). So although glucose is essential for the brain, eating carbohydrates to make glucose is NOT essential, especially if you are in ketosis"

Other quotes worthy of reading:


"Some people, including doctors, get the dangerous condition of ketoacidosis confused with normal benign dietary ketosis but they are different conditions".

"Also, carbohydrate intake levels have to be lowered enough (below 60 grams per day or lower depending on insulin resistance levels) for ketone bodies to be made at a level that the brain can use. If you only lower carbohydrate intake a little, then the ketotic process gets short circuited, and can't do its job of taking over as a fuel source.

Most unfavorable low carb studies which reported the "unhealthy effects" of a low carb diet were actually poorly designed, in that they weren't long enough to account for the "keto-adaptation" period, and they didn't cut carbohydrate intake low enough to ramp up ketosis to the protective amounts needed by the brain"


I am no expert in this type of stuff so l mainly go on intuition with this and try to understand the subject as best as l can by reading the science. Something tells me Suncloud is off with this subject, but if he can prove me and these links wrong l am happy for him to do so. I only want to try and get to the truth if l can.

www.thesproutarian.com

The Sproutarian Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Various doctors say that in order for ketosis to
> happen the body needs to consume less than 100
> grams of carb per day, and if one consumes nuts
> and seeds each day along with plenty greens, it
> going to be difficult for a vegan to get into
> ketosis. Not that l think ketosis is harmful or
> undesirable.
>
> As for the acidosis idea....obviously it can occur
> in the long term if one's diet is poor or one is
> in poor health, but there is no reason for it to
> occur if one eats a healthy diet (non processed or
> chemical food) with all the nutrients provided in
> good amounts. The kidneys and the lungs regulate
> the acid/alkaline balance, so acidosis should not
> occur if one eats properly and has good health.
>
>
> The big question - what fuels do people in ketosis
> use....looks like they still have adequate glucose
> and also use ketones
>
> Here is one peer reviewed paper that sheds
> question over everything Suncloud has been
> claiming. People might want to read it. The paper
> claims ketosis is not harmful for healthy people
> and the body, but it also runs contrary to
> Suncloud's idea when the paper states:
>
> "Contrary to popular belief supported by the
> leading physiology and biochemistry textbooks,
> there is sufficient population of glucose
> transporters in all cell membranes at all times to
> ensure enough glucose uptake to satisfy the cell's
> respiration, even in the absence of insulin"
>
> Suncloud stated:
>
> "the brain and most other cells can substitute
> ketones for glucose during fasting or ketogenic
> diet. Ketones however cannot replace all fuel
> necessary for the body"
>
>
> I say that it does not look like the body has to
> run on mainly keytones and be starved of glucose,
> it still looks like the body can run on sufficient
> glucose and ketones during ketosis. Please let me
> know your thoughts Suncloud.
>
>
> Metabolic Effects of the Very-Low-Carbohydrate
> Diets: Misunderstood "Villains" of Human
> Metabolism
>
> Anssi H Manninen
> [www.jissn.com]
>
>
> From the various doctors l have also listened to,
> they seem to say ketosis is not a problem for
> health people either. I think there is more going
> on than most people think in regards to ketosis.
> If youy google for research papers on the dangers
> of ketosis, it is all positive . .


TSM, if you want to know more about nutritional ketosis I would highly recommend you read this book...

[www.amazon.com]

Wow, another book added to my wish list, that makes 12 all up. I'll need to place my order soon. I always do bulk orders because l live overseas so it is cheaper to do it that way.

All the books on my list are low carb books, the cholsterol myth, the Western Price book, the parasite book and a Dr Blaylock book. I will mainly use these books as a basis to do more research in the literature. I only use books for ideas for future study, and l NEVER accept any books as authority on anything. As you know, l am no fan of books because it goes into the devil's world.

www.thesproutarian.com

The Sproutarian Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
As you know, l am
> no fan of books because it goes into the devil's
> world.


Lol. So if it's written online or in unbound studies it goes into God's heaven?


Some of the things I read online of the raw food world's beliefs and intuitions are just jaw dropping and mind numbing. Whatever...

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Sproutarian Man Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> As you know, l am
> > no fan of books because it goes into the
> devil's
> > world.
>
>
> Lol. So if it's written online or in unbound
> studies it goes into God's heaven?


Of course not.


>
>
> Some of the things I read online of the raw food
> world's beliefs and intuitions are just jaw
> dropping and mind numbing.


Agreed.

The key is to read studies for and against and to use common sense. Books and websites can be used as a starting piont to do further research.

The Sproutarian Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Various doctors say that in order for ketosis to
> happen the body needs to consume less than 100
> grams of carb per day, and if one consumes nuts
> and seeds each day along with plenty greens, it
> going to be difficult for a vegan to get into
> ketosis.

I agree. So why is ketosis a vegan issue?

Question: Do you eat meat?

I thought you ate mostly sprouts.

>Not that l think ketosis is harmful or
> undesirable.

> As for the acidosis idea....obviously it can occur
> in the long term if one's diet is poor or one is
> in poor health, but there is no reason for it to
> occur if one eats a healthy diet (non processed or
> chemical food) with all the nutrients provided in
> good amounts. The kidneys and the lungs regulate
> the acid/alkaline balance, so acidosis should not
> occur if one eats properly and has good health.

Agree that acidosis should not occur if one eats a healthy diet.

> The big question - what fuels do people in ketosis
> use....looks like they still have adequate glucose
> and also use ketones

Adequate for what? I haven't seen meta-studies (studies that summarize a collection of previous studies) supporting a reduction in heart disease or diabetes or an increase in the lifespan. Ketosis is adequate to sustain life (except in the case of excessive starvation, when people eventually die).

> Here is one peer reviewed paper that sheds
> question over everything Suncloud has been
> claiming. People might want to read it. The paper
> claims ketosis is not harmful for healthy people
> and the body, but it also runs contrary to
> Suncloud's idea when the paper states:
>
> "Contrary to popular belief supported by the
> leading physiology and biochemistry textbooks,
> there is sufficient population of glucose
> transporters in all cell membranes at all times to
> ensure enough glucose uptake to satisfy the cell's
> respiration, even in the absence of insulin"

Sproutarian Man, I think you're putting words in my mouth.

I never addressed this specific issue of the interaction between ketones and insulin, and I don't have time to address it now. If you're interested, I suggest that you look up the author's reference for this statement and see if you think the author's view is well-supported.

But just for the heck of it, let's read that again: "Contrary to popular belief supported by the leading physiology and biochemistry textbooks..." So basically, this author is saying he is a lone wolf on this specific issue, and most other leading physiology and biochemistry textbook authors disagree with him. OK.

> Suncloud stated:
>
> "the brain and most other cells can substitute
> ketones for glucose during fasting or ketogenic
> diet. Ketones however cannot replace all fuel
> necessary for the body"

Sproutarian Man, my statement above and your statement below do not contradict each other. Ketones cannot replace glucose for fuel for red blood cells and or any other cell that does not have mitochondria.

> I say that it does not look like the body has to
> run on mainly keytones and be starved of glucose,
> it still looks like the body can run on sufficient
> glucose and ketones during ketosis. Please let me
> know your thoughts Suncloud.

Your statement is correct Sproutarian Man. The body can still run on sufficient glucose and ketones during ketosis - unless/until the person starves to death. Ketones are the main fuel for survival during fasting. Ketones spare both proteins and glucose, although all three are used for fuel. This is well-established in all the scientific literature. Ketones are not the enemy.

Regarding ketosis in the fed state: to me, the question is not whether this is "sufficient", but whether a long-term state of ketosis outside of fasting is a preferred healthy state that has benefits for the general population. Evidence to support that hypothesis would come in the form of lowered disease risk or increased lifespan - not in studies like the one you have presented.

On the other hand, individuals can do what they like, and that's just fine with me. I have no problem with it whatsoever.
>
>
> Metabolic Effects of the Very-Low-Carbohydrate
> Diets: Misunderstood "Villains" of Human
> Metabolism
>
> Anssi H Manninen
> [www.jissn.com]
>
>
> From the various doctors l have also listened to,
> they seem to say ketosis is not a problem for
> health people either. I think there is more going
> on than most people think in regards to ketosis.
> If youy google for research papers on the dangers
> of ketosis, it is all positive . .



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/31/2014 12:15AM by suncloud.

I'll get back to your post another day, but let me address one question you asked me:

"Do you eat meat?"

Um, no Suncloud, l most certainly do not. I am surprised you would even need to ask me that question given what l have been writing for years. Maybe you have never read much of what l have written in the past.

Anyway, l will get back to this when l have some time to spare.

All right Sproutarian Man.

And it's certainly OK to agree to disagree.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/31/2014 12:20AM by suncloud.

Sproutarian Man, since you're gathering books, here's another one to add to your list if you like:

[www.amazon.com]

This is going for the gold in basic medical biochemistry... Good stuff about ketones, insulin, fasting and fed states. Plus all the major pathways and how they work together, including info on how our bodies detox. Fascinating!

Oh, oops. I just read your whole post above. At first I only read that you had 12 books on your "wish list". I just now read the rest of your post where you seemed to think books were evil.

Well, maybe you'll change your mind. I didn't mean for this to be a sarcastic post.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/31/2014 12:37AM by suncloud.

Not sure if I'll ever be in ketosis (nor is it a goal), but I can acknowledge that this natural metabolic state is harmless in healthy individuals. Also, in the same sense that not all vegan diets are equal, not all ketogenic diets are equal. You cannot follow people who are eating a toxic, inflammatory ketogenic diet and then blame their health issues on ketosis, much like you cannot follow vegans eating cupcakes, vegan pizza's, and drinking soda and blame their health issues on being vegan. There may not even be "preferred" state of metabolism for all of humanity, I think most people can adapt to either eat high-carb or low-carb. If they can't, perhaps previous dietary/toxic habits have damaged the body to the point where they can only do one or the other (or at least temporarily)?

Referring to suncloud's post... ketogenic diets have in fact been linked to decreased risks of disease.

[www.nature.com]

[cancerres.aacrjournals.org] - A Low Carbohydrate, High Protein Diet Slows Tumor Growth and Prevents Cancer Initiation - "Our study, herein, shows that a high amylose containing low CHO, high protein diet reduces BG, insulin, and glycolysis, slows tumor growth, reduces tumor incidence, and works additively with existing therapies without weight loss or kidney failure. Such a diet, therefore, has the potential of being both a novel cancer prophylactic and treatment, warranting further investigation of its applicability in the clinic, especially in combination with existing therapies"

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - A ketogenic diet favorably affects serum biomarkers for cardiovascular disease in normal-weight men - "To our knowledge this is the first study to document the effects of a ketogenic diet on fasting and postprandial CVD biomarkers independent of weight loss. The results suggest that a short-term ketogenic diet does not have a deleterious effect on CVD risk profile and may improve the lipid disorders characteristic of atherogenic dyslipidemia"

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - Low carbohydrate ketogenic diet enhances cardiac tolerance to global ischaemia - "This is a unique study showing ultrastructural variation in cardiac muscle in relation to cardio-protective function in rats fed a low carbohydrate ketogenic diet. This study suggests that the LCKD is cardio-protective functionally. The underlying mechanism of the cardio-protective effect of an LCKD needs to be elucidated"

aorta of rabbit when fed zero, 15%, and 26% coconut oil: [www.cadiresearch.org]

Quote

Coconut oil has the unique distinction of having the highest proportion of saturated fat (92%) and cholesterol-raising (12-16 carbons) SAFA (74%) compared to 53% in butter fat and 24-29% in the beef, pork, lamb, and chicken fat.2, 4-6 Specifically, coconut oil contains 47% lauric (C12), 18% myristic (C14), and 9% palmitic (C16) acid.2, 4-6

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/31/2014 01:17AM by Panchito.

They should've given those rats the good stuff (virgin coconut oil) instead of the garbage refined/processed coconut oil.

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - "RESULTS: VCO obtained by wet process has a beneficial effect in lowering lipid components compared to CO. It reduced total cholesterol, triglycerides, phospholipids, LDL, and VLDL cholesterol levels and increased HDL cholesterol in serum and tissues. The PF of virgin coconut oil was also found to be capable of preventing in vitro LDL oxidation with reduced carbonyl formation".

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - "This study showed that VCO supplementation is capable of preventing elevation in blood pressure and also decreasing deactivation of nitric oxide in male rats fed with repeatedly heated palm oil. In addition, VCO does not influence relaxation but DECREASES vasoconstriction of the endothelium".

whole nuts are better than olive oil: [nutritionfacts.org]

Quote

Recently researchers in Spain wondered what would happen if they replaced much of the refined olive oil in people’s diets with extra virgin olive oil or walnuts, or almonds. What were the effects on people’s cardio vascular risk factors after a month on each of the different diets. Same people, but three different months diets different only by the main source of fat. And this is what they found The people in the nut groups did significantly better, dropping their total cholesterol about 7%, knocking about 20 points off their bad cholesterol, however the extra-virgin olive oil did do somewhat better than the refined olive oil, presumably because it retains a few more phytosterols, but nuts—and seeds—remain the best source of fat.Whole food sources of fats, like everything else, tend to be preferable. One can think of extra virgin olive oil like fruit juice—it’s got nutrients, but the calories you get are relatively empty compared to the whole fruit. Olives are, after all, fruits. You fresh squeeze them and you get olive juice, less nutrition than the whole fruit, but then it gets even worse, they throw away what’s called the olive wastewater, which contains all of the water soluble nutrients in olives so you’re really just getting a small fraction of the nutrition of the whole fruit. So why not just eat the olives? Well the problem is that they’re soaked in brine such that a dozen olives could take up half your sodium intake for the day, so I suggest eating them only in moderation.

Lots of things could be corrected in Panchito's post/link above. Insulin resistance in higher fat diets can be overcome when omega 3 long chain fats are had, and aortic atherosclerosis is also avoidable when anti oxidant rich foods are had. Besides...we don'tknow exactly what they were feeding these rabbits to get such poor results.

Panchito's story is only partially told because most of the important factors are not taken into account. In other words, Panchito's post does not tell us anything of significance.

Also, remember Panchito....we need to be specific in what type of cholesterol and whether it is inflamed cholesterol particles, and the particle numbers present. Using LDL-C and HDL-C and total cholesterol will simply not do Panchito. And we need to look at exactly what type of cholesterol saturated fat is effecting, this is very very important. No doctors have been doing this, and this is why so many people with high LDL and total cholesterol have been shown to live longer and have no heart disease...because it is NOT relevant to anything of interest regarding vascular health. Looking at LDL-P is the key...and to see if it is inflamed and in high numbers.

www.thesproutarian.com

More virgin coconut oil benefits:

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - Effect of virgin coconut oil enriched diet on the antioxidant status and paraoxonase 1 activity in ameliorating the oxidative stress in rats - a comparative study - "Results revealed that dietary VCO improved the antioxidant status compared to other three oil fed groups (P < 0.05), which is evident from the increased activities of catalase, superoxide dismutase, glutathione peroxidase and glutathione reductase in tissues. Concentration of reduced glutathione was also found to be increased significantly in liver (532.97 mM per 100 g liver), heart (15.77 mM per 100 g heart) and kidney (1.58 mM per 100 g kidney) of VCO fed rats compared to those fed with CO, OO and SFO (P < 0.05). In addition, the activity of paraoxonase 1 was significantly increased in VCO fed rats compared to other oil fed groups (P < 0.05). Furthermore, VCO administration prevented the oxidative stress, which is indicated by the decreased formation of lipid peroxidation and protein oxidation products like malondialdehyde, hydroperoxides, conjugated dienes and protein carbonyls in serum and tissues compared to other oil fed rats (P < 0.05). Wet processing of VCO retains higher amounts of biologically active unsaponifiable components like polyphenols (84 mg per 100 g oil) and tocopherols (33.12 ?g per 100 g oil) etc. compared to other oils (P < 0.05). From these observations, it is concluded that VCO has a beneficial role in improving antioxidant status and hence preventing lipid and protein oxidation"

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - The effects of virgin coconut oil (VCO) as supplementation on quality of life (QOL) among breast cancer patients - "VCO consumption during chemotherapy helped improve the functional status and global QOL of breast cancer patients. In addition, it reduced the symptoms related to side effects of chemotherapy"

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - Polyphenolics isolated from virgin coconut oil inhibits adjuvant induced arthritis in rats through antioxidant and anti-inflammatory action - "The expression of inflammatory genes such as COX-2, iNOS, TNF-? and IL-6 and the concentration of thiobarbituric acid reactive substance were decreased by treatment with PV. Antioxidant enzymes were increased and on treatment with PV. The increased level of total WBC count and C-reactive protein in the arthritic animals was reduced in PV treated rats. Synovial cytology showed that inflammatory cells and reactive mesothelial cells were suppressed by PV. Histopathology of paw tissue showed less edema formation and cellular infiltration on supplementation with PV. Thus the results demonstrated the potential beneficiary effect of PV on adjuvant induced arthritis in rats and the mechanism behind this action is due to its antioxidant and anti-inflammatory effects"

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - Antimicrobial effects of virgin coconut oil and its medium-chain fatty acids on Clostridium difficile - "This study demonstrates the growth inhibition of C. difficile mediated by medium-chain fatty acids derived from VCO"

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - Virgin coconut oil supplementation prevents bone loss in osteoporosis rat model - "Rats supplemented with VCO had a significantly greater bone volume and trabecular number while trabecular separation was lower than the Ovx group. In conclusion, VCO was effective in maintaining bone structure and preventing bone loss in estrogen-deficient rat model"

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - Anti-inflammatory, analgesic, and antipyretic activities of virgin coconut oil - "The anti-inflammatory, analgesic, and antipyretic effects of VCO were assessed. In acute inflammatory models, VCO showed moderate anti-inflammatory effects on ethyl phenylpropiolate-induced ear edema in rats, and carrageenin- and arachidonic acid-induced paw edema. VCO exhibited an inhibitory effect on chronic inflammation by reducing the transudative weight, granuloma formation, and serum alkaline phosphatase activity. VCO also showed a moderate analgesic effect on the acetic acid-induced writhing response as well as an antipyretic effect in yeast-induced hyperthermia. The results obtained suggest anti-inflammatory, analgesic, and antipyretic properties of VCO"



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/31/2014 02:00AM by jtprindl.

suncloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sproutarian Man, since you're gathering books,
> here's another one to add to your list if you
> like:
>
> [www.amazon.com]
> ieberman-Markss/dp/160831572X
>
> This is going for the gold in basic medical
> biochemistry... Good stuff about ketones,
> insulin, fasting and fed states. Plus all the
> major pathways and how they work together,
> including info on how our bodies detox.
> Fascinating!
>
> Oh, oops. I just read your whole post above. At
> first I only read that you had 12 books on your
> "wish list". I just now read the rest of your
> post where you seemed to think books were evil.
>
> Well, maybe you'll change your mind. I didn't
> mean for this to be a sarcastic post.

Thanks for the book recommendation, suncloud! One really nice thing about textbooks for sale on Amazon is that there is often a huge number of pages they allow you to read for free such as this one does. I'm starting to read it - all my old hand me down med textbooks are really outdated so this will be a good refresher.

Many years ago, way before I knew what the internet was, I used to have to sneak into the doctor's medical library at the local hospital to do my research and reading. It sure is a lot easier these days!

olive oil causes endothelial cell inflammation and reduced brachial flow

walnuts are better than olive oil: [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Quote

Compared with a Mediterranean diet, a walnut diet has been shown to improve endothelial function in hypercholesterolemic patients. We hypothesized that walnuts would reverse postprandial endothelial dysfunction associated with consumption of a fatty meal.

We randomized in a crossover design 12 healthy subjects and 12 patients with hypercholesterolemia to 2 high-fat meal sequences to which 25 g olive oil or 40 g walnuts had been added. Both test meals contained 80 g fat and 35% saturated fatty acids, and consumption of each meal was separated by 1 week. Venipunctures and ultrasound measurements of brachial artery endothelial function were performed after fasting and 4 h after test meals.

RESULTS:In both study groups, flow-mediated dilation (FMD) was worse after the olive oil meal than after the walnut meal.

CONCLUSIONS: Adding walnuts to a high-fat meal acutely improves FMD independently of changes in oxidation, inflammation, or ADMA.

Panchito Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> olive oil causes endothelial cell inflammation and
> reduced brachial flow
>
> walnuts are better than olive oil:
> [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]
>
> Compared with a Mediterranean diet, a walnut diet
> has been shown to improve endothelial function in
> hypercholesterolemic patients. We hypothesized
> that walnuts would reverse postprandial
> endothelial dysfunction associated with
> consumption of a fatty meal.
>
> We randomized in a crossover design 12 healthy
> subjects and 12 patients with hypercholesterolemia
> to 2 high-fat meal sequences to which 25 g olive
> oil or 40 g walnuts had been added. Both test
> meals contained 80 g fat and 35% saturated fatty
> acids, and consumption of each meal was separated
> by 1 week. Venipunctures and ultrasound
> measurements of brachial artery endothelial
> function were performed after fasting and 4 h
> after test meals.
>
> RESULTS:In both study groups, flow-mediated
> dilation (FMD) was worse after the olive oil meal
> than after the walnut meal.
>
> CONCLUSIONS: Adding walnuts to a high-fat meal
> acutely improves FMD independently of changes in
> oxidation, inflammation, or ADMA.

I like to combine walnuts and olive oil with other anti-inflammatory foods in delicious recipes designed for overall health and keeping the blood flowing optimally. It's an art and a science for those who are interested and are up for the task.

And lets not forget that the glucosinolates in broccoli sprouts has a far more powerful and longer lasting effect than regular antioxidant vitamins (they power along for upto 72 hours), and we know that this greatly optimises FMD, greatly reduces chances of plaques and also has recently been shown to offer powerful protection against AGE's. Alges and seaweeds also offer protection from high fat diets, and this is exactly why l promote sprouted greens as essential for a high fat diet, and the inflammatory factor is exactly why l promote chia and coconut fat.

Incidently, the Vogel study which first showed the damage caused by fats also provided solutions to the problem via the antioxidant solution, but low fat promotors always conveniently leave that part of the study out. As soon as l read Vogel's various studies the light bulb went on and l immediately smelled a rat. And when l read the high fat cover-ups l smelled one of the foulest smelling rats ever.

So yes, it looks like one of the most powerful things we can do to protect against high fat diets is to:
- take broccoli/radish sprouts (long lasting protection)
- take chia seed sprouts with coconut fat.

I don't say these things without very good reasons. I have read lots of studies on antioxidants and l believe the sprout/algae/seaweed/coconut-fat method is as good as it gets. Wish l could talk about it all day because the powerful concept blows my mind sky high. Soon l am going to document this in very fine detail.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/31/2014 03:37AM by The Sproutarian Man.

"So yes, it looks like one of the most powerful things we can do to protect against high fat diets is to:
- take broccoli/radish sprouts (long lasting protection)
- take chia seed sprouts with coconut fat."

I juice the broccoli/radish sprouts all the time but I still need to buy myself a dehydrator so I can make sprouted chia crackers and then lather (1-1.5 TBS) those bad boys with extra-virgin coconut oil and a little bit of sea salt. I have so many dietary aspirations and idea's lined out but I need to sort out the financial aspects first and foremost. I still make it a priority to consume chlorella and AFA blue-green algae everyday on top of sprout/grass juices most days. In the future hopefully when I am growing much of my own food I can increase fruit intake because it will be high-quality truly fresh fruit. I would like to grow cannabis and juice the leaves as well, maybe combine it with aloe vera and/or stevia leaf (all fresh and grown by me). I think a large green juice (around 64 oz) of sunflower greens, chia greens, broccoli sprouts and wheatgrass at least 5x per week would be extremely beneficial as well.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/31/2014 03:45AM by jtprindl.

"olive oil causes endothelial cell inflammation and reduced brachial flow"

Not extra-virgin olive oil.

[www.biomedcentral.com] (more than 7,200 people) - Olive oil intake and risk of cardiovascular disease and mortality in the PREDIMED Study - "Olive oil consumption, specifically the extra-virgin variety, is associated with reduced risks of cardiovascular disease and mortality in individuals at high cardiovascular risk".

[www.biomedcentral.com] - Gene expression changes in mononuclear cells in patients with metabolic syndrome after acute intake of phenol-rich virgin olive oil - "This study shows that intake of virgin olive oil based breakfast, which is rich in phenol compounds is able to repress in vivo expression of several pro-inflammatory genes, thereby switching activity of peripheral blood mononuclear cells to a less deleterious inflammatory profile. These results provide at least a partial molecular basis for reduced risk of cardiovascular disease observed in Mediterranean countries, where virgin olive oil represents a main source of dietary fat".

[www.lipidworld.com] - Monounsaturated fatty acids, olive oil and health status: a systematic review and meta-analysis of cohort studies - "Following subgroup analyses, significant associations could only be found between higher intakes of olive oil and reduced risk of all-cause mortality, cardiovascular events, and stroke, respectively. The MUFA subgroup analyses did not reveal any significant risk reduction".

[www.translational-medicine.com] - Beneficial effects of the olive oil phenolic components oleuropein and hydroxytyrosol: focus on protection against cardiovascular and metabolic diseases - "Several studies have emphasized the importance of a regular use of olive oil in the benefits of traditional mediterranean diet on cardiovascular diseases [6],[45]-[47]. In particular, beside the antioxidant activity, vasodilatatory, anti-platelet aggregation and anti-inflammatory effects have been assigned to olive oil phenolic compounds such as OL and HT [5],[22],[23],[48]".

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - Cardiovascular mortality: how can it be prevented? - "This trial included 7447 high vascular risk individuals who were randomly divided into three dietary intervention groups: Mediterranean diet supplemented with extra-virgin olive oil, Mediterranean diet supplemented with nuts, and a control diet (low in all types of fat). Analyses of intermediate markers demonstrated beneficial effects of the Mediterranean diet on blood pressure, lipid profile, lipoprotein particles, oxidative stress and inflammation markers and carotid atherosclerosis. However, the most important finding was the 30% reduction in the relative risk of major cardiovascular complications (heart attack, stroke and cardiovascular mortality) in both Mediterranean diet groups COMPARED TO THOSE WHO FOLLOWED A LOW-FAT DIET".



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/31/2014 04:00AM by jtprindl.

Sounds good jtprindl.

And what is also great about this diet plan is that we can eat all the high nutrient seeds with the beneficial fatty acids and remain safe from adverse effects such as plaques, negative effects on FMD, excessive inflammation, AGE's, oxidative stress etc, and it also creates nutrient synergy.

I challenge anyone to find a diet that can come close to touching that. This sprout/algae/seaweed/salt/coconut fat/ferment diet looks to provide solutions for everything. I look for faults all the time in this diet and others and l feel the one l promote is as good as it gets. It's not my diet because the higher powers have lead me too it to share with mankind (it's the diet they shared with me to share with the world), so l cannot take credit because the brilliance was already there, it is just that the higher powers had to make me understand it's brilliance so l could come out and deliver the message. I am just a mere messenger...the brilliance comes from the higher powers.

www.thesproutarian.com

More extra-virgin olive oil studies:

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - Tyrosol, the major extra virgin olive oil compound, restored intracellular antioxidant defences in spite of its weak antioxidative effectiveness - "In spite of its weak antioxidant activity, tyrosol was effective in preserving cellular antioxidant defences, probably by intracellular accumulation. These findings give further evidence in favour of olive oil consumption to counteract cardiovascular diseases".

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - Effects of olive oil and its minor constituents on serum lipids, oxidative stress, and energy metabolism in cardiac muscle - "Olive oil induced decreased antioxidant Mn-superoxide dismutase activity and diminished protein carbonyl concentration, indicating that olive oil may exert direct antioxidant effect on myocardium".

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - Antioxidant effect of virgin olive oil in patients with stable coronary heart disease: a randomized, crossover, controlled, clinical trial - "Lower plasma oxidized LDL (p < 0.001) and lipid peroxide levels (p = 0.003), together with higher activities of glutathione peroxidase (p = 0.033), were observed after VOO intervention. Systolic blood pressure decreased after intake of VOO (p = 0.001) in hypertensive patients. No changes were observed in diastolic blood pressure, glucose, lipids, and antibodies against oxidized LDL. Consumption of VOO, rich in PC, could provide beneficial effects in CHD patients as an additional and complementary intervention to the pharmacological treatment".

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - Are olive oil diets antithrombotic? Diets enriched with olive, rapeseed, or sunflower oil affect postprandial factor VII differently - "A background diet rich in olive oil may attenuate the acute procoagulant effects of fatty meals, which might contribute to the low incidence of IHD in Mediterranean areas".

So when animals are fed coconut oil, is it raw? They get clogged sewer looking arteries? Is that what you are saying Sproutarian man? Is that what those photos mean? Why are some arteries speckled with red?

the effects of saturated fat are visible only over long periods. Feeling good (TSM meter) is not a good indicator of its health effects. For example, people feel good after eating brownies, candy, or junk. Actually, junk makes you feel good. Generally, if you exercise regularly, you can measure how foods affect you in the long term. But just sitting and fantasizing about how you feel may not be a good strategy. Overweight people in the hospitals are still in the illusion and not willing to give up their failed diets. They see from inside their brains. There is a clear brain/body dichotomy in food. Foods for the brain are generally bad for the rest of the body and viceversa.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/31/2014 07:00PM by Panchito.