There is no valid science whatsoever to support claims that raw vegan foods containing "overt" fats are less than ideal.

I disagree with this, see these


[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]
This reference shows that overt fats, even when raw, contain significantly more advanced glycation end products per gram than carbohydrates or proteins. This also applies to uncooked fat sources. But yes, there are even more when you cook them.

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]
This study shows that monounsaturated fats are atherogenic in monkeys. They are atherogenic in humans as well, but not as atherogenic as most saturated fats.

And a reason to not go overboard on PUFA is that it is too easy to mess up the omega6mega3 ratio that is optimal (1:1 to 4:1) for conversion of ALA to EPA and DHA.

Finally there are the Ornish studies that reverse heart disease, reversed the progression of prostate cancer, and lengthened telomeres on very low fat diets.

I am not saying that extra raw fat constitutes an appreciable health hazard, for that I do not know.

But I do consider there to be strong evidence to support the idea that extra fat is not ideal.

We need enough EFAs and a little more to promote uptake of the fat-soluble nutrients.

The only reasons to take in more than that are palatability and costs.

If moderate fat is the only way you can stay raw, that has to be balanced with the potential risks.

Those are personal decisions because nobody really knows.

My tolerable risk level is 20-25% fat. 10% is too hard for me. But I would be afraid to do a 60% fat diet.

"This reference shows that overt fats, even when raw, contain significantly more advanced glycation end products per gram than carbohydrates or proteins. This also applies to uncooked fat sources. But yes, there are even more when you cook them."

Not a quality study because it doesn't give any information about the nuts being used. These could be processed and/or pasteurized nuts for all we know, which would give unreliable and inaccurate information. Also, advanced glycation end products form when a carbohydrate is added to protein without the involvement of an enzyme, which could be explain why unsprouted nuts, rich in enzyme inhibitors, are sometimes found to be high in AGE's. Sprouting, which activates enzymes, may negate or significantly reduce AGE formation.

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - "In a protein-reducing sugar model, the sunflower sprout Helianthus annuus exhibited the strongest inhibitory effects against the formation of advanced glycation end products (AGEs)".

"This study shows that monounsaturated fats are atherogenic in monkeys. They are atherogenic in humans as well, but not as atherogenic as most saturated fats."

Also not a quality study because it doesn't specify the source of fats, which could be cooked animal products, non-organic, processed, etc. Olive oil is rich in monounsaturated fats and has lots of documented heart health benefits. Again, fats are not the bad guy when it comes to heart health - inflammation is. Cooked animal fats and excessive omega-6's are highly inflammatory.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/2015 12:47AM by jtprindl.

First, to anyone who might happen to have symptoms of a vaginal yeast infection (vaginal candidiasis): Calendula gel applied to the area works wonders. It's available at health food stores.

arugula Wrote (see post above for complete quote):
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is no valid science whatsoever to support
> claims that raw vegan foods containing "overt"
> fats are less than ideal.
>
> I disagree with this, see these
>
> [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]
> 4/
> This reference shows that overt fats, even when
> raw, contain significantly more advanced glycation
> end products per gram than carbohydrates or
> proteins. This also applies to uncooked fat
> sources. But yes, there are even more when you
> cook them.
> [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]
> /
> This study shows that monounsaturated fats are
> atherogenic in monkeys. They are atherogenic in
> humans as well, but not as atherogenic as most
> saturated fats.

>I am not saying that extra raw fat constitutes an appreciable health hazard, for that I do not know.

>But I do consider there to be strong evidence to support the idea that extra fat is not ideal.

I was the one who entered the quote in bold above, and I'd like to clarify briefly: We are in agreement. The statement was not intended to refer to "extra raw fat" in the diet.

And in fact, there does seem to be plenty of evidence all around that extra anything is less than ideal!

Regarding moderation, I'm not aware of any evidence whatsoever that inclusion of moderate quantities of healthy fats from whole food overt fat sources - nuts, seeds, avocados, coconut, etc. - constitutes a health hazard at all.

There is however, considerable evidence to the contrary. For example, here's a 2010 study on the health benefits of nut consumption (check the side panel to the right of the page for additional studies): [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

>> My tolerable risk level is 20-25% fat. 10% is too
> hard for me. But I would be afraid to do a 60% fat
> diet.

I would consider 20-25% fat in an otherwise adequate raw food diet to be a very healthy level of intake, especially if most (or even all) of the fat comes from whole food sources.

I think it's possible that in a cooked vegan diet, a smaller quantity of overt fats may be required, since grains and beans would supply some of the same non-fat nutrients as whole food raw overt fats.

For myself, I prefer the all-raw option; but of course, it's a personal choice for each of us.

jprindtl wrote

[Not a quality study because it doesn't give any information about the nuts being used. These could be processed and/or pasteurized nuts for all we know, which would give unreliable and inaccurate information.]

They tested avocado, too, which is almost assuredly raw.


[Also, advanced glycation end products form when a carbohydrate is added to protein without the involvement of an enzyme, which could be explain why unsprouted nuts, rich in enzyme inhibitors, are sometimes found to be high in AGE's. Sprouting, which activates enzymes, may negate or significantly reduce AGE formation.]

Sprouting also changes the macronutrient ratio towards more carbohydrates and proteins. So yes, I would not expect the same AGE load as from unsprouted.

[Also not a quality study because it doesn't specify the source of fats, which could be cooked animal products, non-organic, processed, etc. Olive oil is rich in monounsaturated fats and has lots of documented heart health benefits.]

Here we disagree. Olive oil is not a health food. It is merely not as bad as most saturated fats. It is indeed atherogenic, whether virgin or not. The length and position of the carbon chain is what matters here, and that stays the same cooked or raw. In addition it has an omega6mega3 ratio of 11:1 and if you use it liberally, you will mess up your ratio.

I use olive oil myself. But I don't tell myself it's a healthy thing to do. It just makes the salad go down easier.

These are Dr. Klaper's references:

The postprandial effect of components of the Mediterranean diet on endothelial function. New Window Vogel RA, Corretti MC, Plotnick GD. Department of Medicine, University of Maryland School of Medicine. J Am Coll Cardiol. 2000 Nov 1;36(5):1455-60.

The influence of diet on the appearance of new lesions in human coronary arteries. New Window Blankenhorn DH, Johnson RL, Mack WJ, el Zein HA, Vailas LI. Atherosclerosis Research Institute, University of Southern California School of Medicine. JAMA. 1990 Mar 23-30;263(12):1646-52.

Effects of dietary fat quality and quantity on postprandial activation of blood coagulation factor VII. New Window Larsen LF, Bladbjerg EM, Jespersen J, Marckmann P. Research Dept of Human Nutrition, Royal Veterinary and Agricultural University, Frederiksberg, Denmark. Arterioscler Thromb Vasc Biol. 1997 Nov;17(11):2904-9.

The high-fat Greek diet: a recipe for all? New Window Ferro-Luzzi A, James WP, Kafatos A. National Institute for Food and Nutrition Research, Rome, Italy. Eur J Clin Nutr. 2002 Sep;56(9):796-809.

Changes in nutritional pattern, insulin sensitivity and glucose tolerance during weight loss in obese patients from a Mediterranean area. New Window Calle-Pascual AL, Saavedra A, Benedi A, Martin-Alvarez PJ, Garcia-Honduvilla J, Calle JR, Maranes JP. Servicio de Endocrinologia y Nutricion, Hospital Universitario San Carlos, Madrid, Spain. Horm Metab Res. 1995 Nov;27(11):499-502.

Mediterranean diet and public health: personal reflections. New Window Keys A. Division of Epidemiology, School of Public Health, University of Minnesota, Minneapolis 55454-1015, USA. Am J Clin Nutr. 1995 Jun;61(6 Suppl):1321S-1323S.

He also has a video here:

[doctorklaper.com]

The NEJM and Harvard tell people olive oil is "heart healthy" because they know it's not as bad as animal fat and they also know that if they tell people to eat a whole-foods plant-based diet <10% fat hardly anybody will comply. \

I guess there is a similar way of thinking with raw vegan diets. A moderate fat raw vegan diet that uses olive oil is probably healthy. But I think it could be bettered by lowering the fat.

I won't argue with you anymore because I don't have all the answers but I hope that you will consider these references.

"Olive oil is not a health food. It is merely not as bad as most saturated fats."

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - "An inverse association between increasing consumption of leafy vegetables and olive oil and CHD risk emerged in this large cohort of Italian women".

[www.biomedcentral.com] - "Olive oil consumption, specifically the extra-virgin variety, is associated with reduced risks of cardiovascular disease and mortality in individuals at high cardiovascular risk".

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - "Olive oil polyphenols promote the main HDL antiatherogenic function, its cholesterol efflux capacity. These polyphenols increased HDL size, promoted a greater HDL stability reflected as a triglyceride-poor core, and enhanced the HDL oxidative status, through an increase in the olive oil polyphenol metabolites content in the lipoprotein. Our results provide for the first time a first-level evidence of an enhancement in HDL function by polyphenol-rich olive oil".

[www.biomedcentral.com] - "Olive oil consumption, specifically the extra-virgin variety, is associated with reduced risks of cardiovascular disease and mortality in individuals at high cardiovascular risk".

Compared to saturated animal fat.


[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - "Olive oil polyphenols promote the main HDL antiatherogenic function, its cholesterol efflux capacity. These polyphenols increased HDL size, promoted a greater HDL stability reflected as a triglyceride-poor core, and enhanced the HDL oxidative status, through an increase in the olive oil polyphenol metabolites content in the lipoprotein. Our results provide for the first time a first-level evidence of an enhancement in HDL function by polyphenol-rich olive oil".

You don't need extra HDL if your LDL is low. CVD/CHD risks are essentially zero it total cholesterol is less than 150 mg/dl.

Certain things do not make sense and you do not need a scientific study to figure that out.
There are many choices available as food, why would anyone drink olive oil?
Why not just eat olive?
When was the last time a family enjoyed a meal of olive oil?

"Compared to saturated animal fat."

Where do you see that? And this is the background...

"Evidence suggests that olive oil intake is inversely associated with cardiovascular disease (CVD) in the Spanish general population [3] and in a cohort of Italian women [4]. In the Spanish cohort of the European Prospective Investigation into Cancer and Nutrition (EPIC) study, total olive oil intake has been associated with a decreased risk of coronary heart disease, and also all-cause and cardiovascular mortality [5,6]. Similarly, a lower risk of mortality was associated with regular consumption of olive oil in an Italian population after myocardial infarction [7] and also in an elderly population [8]. A recent meta-analysis concluded that epidemiologic studies consistently found an inverse association between olive oil consumption and stroke, but there were inconsistencies between studies assessing coronary heart disease (CHD) as the end-point [9]. Of note, most of the previous studies made no distinction among the different varieties of olive oil [4,7,8]. Except for the EPIC-Spanish cohort that found a greater beneficial effect in CHD for the virgin olive oil variety than for the common variety [5] and similar effects for both varieties on all-cause mortality [6]. This distinction is important because EVOO contains much higher amounts of polyphenols than common olive oil. These polyphenols may have cardiovascular benefits beyond the lipid profile. It has also been reported that olive oil intake could be beneficial in the prevention of certain cancers, such as breast cancer [10], but the evidence is weaker."


"You don't need extra HDL if your LDL is low. CVD/CHD risks are essentially zero it total cholesterol is less than 150 mg/dl."

Psychological health issues can start to kick in when total cholesterol gets too low. It's not simply about total cholesterol for heart disease risk anyways, total cholesterol to HDL ratio is far more important. You can have what is considered a very high total cholesterol but if your HDL is high enough to give a healthy ratio, you are at no more risk for heart disease.

Ya'll go excuse me while I bang my head against the table...

(I jest, I jest. Just alot of information.)

And I am in the process of diagnosis, btw. Though symptoms seem fairly obvious, as they are almost strictly an issue of chronic genital yeast.

Manta, in case you missed it above, a topical treatment you might consider is Calendula Gel. Immediately removes the itch, and resolves the infection within a few days at most.

It's available at most health food stores.

Ah, I was responding to a post by Arugula, who inquired about a diagnosis. Symptoms are pretty much under control, I'm finding lately, if I stick to fruits, greens, and some steamed vegetables a couple nights a week.