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Supplements
Posted by: Stormyone66 ()
Date: December 21, 2006 08:57PM

Hello everyone,

I'm not new to raw, but I've fallen off the proverbial path pretty much every year. I have the willpower of a creampuff, and frankly I'm gonna start looking like one (and feeling like one) if I don't toughen up and deal with the first 30 days of the sucky detox period. Anyway, I've revisted my old raw guru website favorites..Dave Wolfe, Paul Nisson, Shazzie, blah, blah...and I've noticed they are all pushing supplements. That leads me to believe that one cannot survive on all raw without shoving a pill in there here and there.

Unfortunately, I've never been on this diet for more than 3 mos. but can't seem to get the idea out of my head that it's the right one. Anyway, just want to know if there are any longer terms raw foodies here that have thrived without the aid of the supplements. Guess this is kind of the last of the worries that seems to have a hold on me...well, other than my lousy will power smiling smiley

Thanks for your help!

Shannon

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Re: Supplements
Posted by: arugula ()
Date: December 21, 2006 09:19PM

You do need B12 and D. These are dirt cheap, or free, depending on your source and scruples.

But the rest of it: they are just trying to make a buck.

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Re: Supplements
Posted by: Stormyone66 ()
Date: December 21, 2006 10:25PM

Thank you smiling smiley

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Re: Supplements
Posted by: Bryan ()
Date: December 22, 2006 03:17AM

Shannon,

If you are interested in a raw diet that does not require supplements, check out the 80/10/10 diet. You can get this book on Dr Doug Graham's website foodnsport.com. I have been eating this diet for the last 4 years, and I feel great, and I don't take supplements or superfoods. All I eat you can buy at any organic supermarket in the produce section (except for durian, which you have to get at an Asian market).

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Re: Supplements
Posted by: arugula ()
Date: December 22, 2006 09:34AM

"Dr." Graham gets a B12 injection from a real doctor when he develops symptoms. You can ask him about this.

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Re: Supplements
Posted by: Bryan ()
Date: December 22, 2006 09:58AM

Not anymore. Not since he developed 80/10/10. You can ask him about this too smiling smiley

The occurance of B12 deficiency in vegans (in terms of percentages) is no different that the non-vegan population. This must mean the dietary b12 is not a consideration to whether one becomes deficient since the problem stems from malabsorption of b12.

What is true is that certain raw diets are more likely to result in b12 absorption problems. To discover which of these diets have this issue, just see if the diet proponent recommends b12 supplementation as part of the diet.

Dr Graham is a real doctor. He is not a medical doctor, which make sense since he doesn't use medicines. He is (or was) a licensed chiropractor, and in our society, we call them doctors. A dentist is not a medical doctor either, but do you omit the Dr title when you address your dentist?

I've done lots of things in my past for my health that I would not recommend to other people. I did the Arise and Shine cleanse, which I thought was a great idea at the time, but I would not recommend it to anyone now after I have had my healing from the 80/10/10 diet. Just because Dr Graham at one time took a B12 supplement, does that mean he hasn't since figured out a way to not need that supplementation? I think not!

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Re: Supplements
Posted by: Bryan ()
Date: December 22, 2006 10:01AM

Experiments were done on baboons (or some other ape) removing their dietary b12, to see if they would develop b12 deficiencies. No deficiencies developed. What they did discover was that if they increased the fat intake of fat to 30% of their diet, the b12 levels did drop, though they never became deficient.

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Re: Supplements
Posted by: arugula ()
Date: December 22, 2006 10:25AM

Bryan, can you please provide references? AFAIK Doug Grahmam does not actually read papers so I am not sure where this is coming from.

Baboons do indeed develop B12 deficiences when their diets are deficient. These deficiences may be partially masked by high folate intakes.

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Re: Supplements
Posted by: Bryan ()
Date: December 22, 2006 07:38PM

Here are the baboon references and various B12 references and notes
Quote

1) It's impossible to cause a B12 deficiency in animals (primate especially) , even when they're fed for several years in a purified diet without B12
"Siddons, F. Jacob et al. Vitamin B12 nutrition and metabolism in the baboon"
"Siddons, R.C at al. The experimental production of vitamin B12 deficiency in the baboon"
"F. Jacob et al. Vitamin B12 nutrition and metabolism in the baboon"

2) It's possible to lower the level of B12 in chimps and other animals fed in a purified diet without B12 sources when they're injected with ampicillin and other antibiotics
"Siddons, F. Jacob et al. Vitamin B12 nutrition and metabolism in the baboon"
"Siddons, R.C at al. The experimental production of vitamin B12 deficiency in the baboon"
"F. Jacob et al. Vitamin B12 nutrition and metabolism in the baboon"

3) Studied vegetarian men have more hemoglobin than meat eaters, and vegan had even more than vegetarian as they had lower values for erythrocyte and higher values for corpuscular volume.

4) No serious study in medicine literatures showed that there were B12 deficiency in non-smoker that has been vegan for more than 15 years.

5) No serious scientific studies in medicine literature showed that vegan children had lower vitamin B12 (while the wrong misleading conclusions showed this)

6) All the vegan has higher erythrocyte folate concentration and normal vitamin B12 level.

7) The non supplementing vegan showed no macrocytosis or microcytosis, no poly-segmented neutrophils and the level was 180 ng/l were deficiency is seen only under 85 ng/l.
"Shane B, Stokstad et al. Vitamin B12-folate interrelationships"
"Ellis,Montegriffo et al. Veganism, clinical findings and investigations. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition"
"Ellis, F.R.; Mumford, P. ~ The nutritional status of vegans and vegetarians"

8) The time studied people had been on the vegan diet range from several years to 35 years.

9) Ten vegan subjects that showed normal or higher level of B12 had been breast fed by vegan mothers.

10) The B12 level of those taking B12 supplements was not much more higher than those that has never taking supplements (321M + 60SE ng/l > 253M + 19SE ng/l)
"Chanarin et al. Vitamin B12 studies in total vegetarians"
"Shane B, Stokstad et al. Vitamin B12-folate interrelationships"
"Ellis,Montegriffo et al. Veganism, clinical findings and investigations. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition"
"Ellis, F.R.; Mumford, P. The nutritional status of vegans and vegetarians"
"JE Cotes, JM Dabbs, AM Hall et al. possible effect of a vegan diet upon lung function and the cardio-respiratory response to submaximal exercise in healthy women"

10b) They failed to find any clinical or hematological evidence of vitamin BI2 deficiency in their studies none of the vegan people studied had vitamin B12 deficient. The studies found no lack of B12 in vegans. The studies found no deficiency of B12 in vegans = 80 ng/dl after 5 years of monitoring

11) There have been few cases in which B12 deficiency in a vegan caused damage to the nerves and spinal cords and they were showed to be due to gastro-enteritis and other pathological conditions, some meat eater relatives showed the same problem and the same low B12 level.

12) Gastric, intestinal, liver organic substances of both primates animals fed for more than three years in a diet without source of vitamin B12 and vegan human had been extracted and showed high content of vitamin B12 and in vitro the extracted organisms showed to manufacture vitamin B12. Both the men and the primate animals had high/normal level of B12.

13) Primates animals fed with a purified diet with B12 supplements showed no differences in folate, and B12 level from chimps fed without B12 sources.
"Siddons, F. Jacob et al. Vitamin B12 nutrition and metabolism in the baboon"
"Siddons, R.C at al. The experimental production of vitamin B12 deficiency in the baboon"
"F. Jacob et al. Vitamin B12 nutrition and metabolism in the baboon"

14) Cow and other mammals don't take B12 from the soil. Experiments conducts on these animals showed that their B12 level was still high after three years on a purified diet without B12 sources. Their intestinal compounds showed to contain organisms that in vitro produced B12.

15) Both in man and animals not eating vitamin b12 sources microorganisms able to produce B12 had been isolated.

16) Those not taking B12 supplements showed more micro-organism concentration able to produce in their stomachs and intestines than those taking B12 supplement.
"Mickelsen et al - Intestinal synthesis of vitamins in the nonruminant"
"F. Jacob et al. Vitamin B12 nutrition and metabolism in the baboon"
Albert, M.J et al. - Vitamin B12 synthesis by human small intestinal bacteria"

17) Experiments carried out on vegans showed that B12 manufactured by bacterial flora in the stomach and intestines (not colon) are highly absorbed in the ileum
"Albert, M.J.; Mathan, V.I.; Baker, S.J. ~ Vitamin B12 synthesis by human small intestinal bacteria"

18) Anaerobic Ci perfringens produced the highest level of B12.

18a)Only 10% of yeast microorganisms produce 1.0 ng/ml of B12.

18b)49% of anaerobic bacteria produce 10ng/ml of B12.

19) Anaerobic bacteria in the mouth produce high level of B12 also.

20) Cobamides cultures have been isolated from the liver of primates.

21) Specker Radioessay is known to be ineffective when need to individuate the TRUE B12 from ANALOGUE USELESS B12.

22) All the studies that showed that meat, eggs, milk and cheese are high source of absorbable vitamin B12 have been carried out using Specker Radioessay method.

23) Ochromonas malhamensis is the most precise and accurate method to trace B12 in food and individuate the analogue from the human utilizable.

24) Laboratory head Dr Fukuoca and H Barker, found that B12 content of meat, liver, eggs, cheese, milk was 99% less than what SP showed and found zero human utilizable B12 in all these foods once they were tested with Ochromonas malhamensis instead of Specker Radioessay.

Ochromonas malhamensis is rarely used because it's not easy to manage and it costs too much, that's why every food composition table of utilizable by man B12 in food is wrong and false.

25) Vegetables and many fruits (even when washed) show to contain B12.
Usually plant foods have cobamides ATCC 9614 cultures producing this vitamin.

25a) When tested, these food are processed in acid, added cyanide and exposed to heat, doing so all the anaerobic bacteria are destroyed. That's why we are told that plants food do not contain B12 wile they do contain it.

25b) As G Ruth stated the medium becomes too acid for accurate resulting when testing B12 content of plants food.

26) It's impossible to find B vitamins in isolation. Where there's vitamin B1, there also vitamin B6 and B12. All plants containing vitamin B contain B12 as well.

27) The B12 found on vegetables when proper methods of finding are used is not analogue, but utilizable by man.

28) Mt. Sinai showed that when a diet is too high in fat and protein the B12 need is tripled.

29) It was possible to induce mild vitamin B12 deficiency in primate animals, by raising their fatty acid level over 30%.

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Re: Supplements
Posted by: Bryan ()
Date: December 22, 2006 07:42PM

arugula,

The 80/10/10 Diet book has 9 pages of references and notes in a very small font, for a total of 82 references/footnotes. If you read the book, you will see that his material does include published research.

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Re: Supplements
Posted by: arugula ()
Date: December 22, 2006 07:56PM

>1) It's impossible to cause a B12 deficiency in animals (primate especially) , even when they're fed for several years in a purified diet without B12

Siddons has indeed performed studies causing B12 deficiency in baboons merely by failing to provide adequate B12. But it's probably irrelevant: his studies were old, performed in the 70s and he did not use the more accurate MMA assays that are used today. High folate intake can mask a B12 deficiency. In fact we learned it from his experiments.

2) It's possible to lower the level of B12 in chimps and other animals fed in a purified diet without B12 sources when they're injected with ampicillin and other antibiotics

Yes, this is true. But irrelevant.

3) Studied vegetarian men have more hemoglobin than meat eaters, and vegan had even more than vegetarian as they had lower values for erythrocyte and higher values for corpuscular volume.

No ref provided for this, irrelevant to the bigger issue of B12 deficiency.

4) No serious study in medicine literatures showed that there were B12 deficiency in non-smoker that has been vegan for more than 15 years.

I think with this arbitrary 15 year qualifier you will run into trouble. I have never seen studies with such a criterion. But, most studies do exclude smokers.

5) No serious scientific studies in medicine literature showed that vegan children had lower vitamin B12 (while the wrong misleading conclusions showed this)

This is not true, there are a number of studies on deficiencies in vegan children.

6) All the vegan has higher erythrocyte folate concentration and normal vitamin B12 level.

No reference here.

--

That's enough, I can see where this is going, nothing relevant is cited, just ancient irrelevancies and unsupported claims. Whoever put this together has ignored the mountain of more relevant information.

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Re: Supplements
Posted by: Bryan ()
Date: December 23, 2006 01:41AM

Shannon,

In response to your original question, when I first went raw I tried supplements like Nature's First Food. It tasted horrible, but I forced myself to drink it. That was the last supplement I used, and that was about 5 years ago. After going to a high fruit low fat diet, I felt so great that I didn't feel like I needed supplements any longer. I've been 100% raw for 5 years, so I guess its possible to go at least 5 years (based on my current experience) and feel great without supplements.

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Re: Supplements
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: December 23, 2006 05:26PM

All supplements cause disease. Vegetables, sprouts, sea vegetables, herbs, and sauerkraut also cause disease. The only food that does not cause disease is sweet fruit, so I have decided to eat only dates, oranges, and bananas.

I once ate a supplement and it made me puke. Therefore, all supplements are toxins

Jimmy

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Re: Supplements
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: December 23, 2006 07:17PM

Mike Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> All supplements cause disease. Vegetables,
> sprouts, sea vegetables, herbs, and sauerkraut
> also cause disease. The only food that does not
> cause disease is sweet fruit, so I have decided to
> eat only dates, oranges, and bananas.
>
> I once ate a supplement and it made me puke.
> Therefore, all supplements are toxins
>
> Jimmy

Vegetables, sprouts cause disease?
What is the evidence?

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Re: Supplements
Posted by: Bryan ()
Date: December 23, 2006 07:49PM

djatchi,

Mike forgot to logout out of his "Mike" account and into his "jimmyjoe" account before he wrote that last message grinning smiley

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Re: Supplements
Posted by: Stormyone66 ()
Date: December 26, 2006 03:18AM

Hi Bryan...

Thanks for the input. I'm going to pick up a copy of Dr. Graham's book. smiling smiley

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Re: Supplements
Posted by: James Smith ()
Date: December 26, 2006 04:19AM

I am new to raw and, for what it's worth, I do take supplements. I do not know if I will stop in the future, but for now I do take them. I know that they are not raw and probably not even vegetarian. For anyone interested in supplements, here are excellent recommendations:

[lpi.oregonstate.edu]

Also, if you do take supplements, be sure that they have been verified by a third party, such as USP:

[www.usp.org]

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