jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> You know you're at a loss for a credible argument
> when you're rebuttal turns into "I can read those
> papers for free but you can't", "I have a couple
> of STEM degrees and enjoy current employment at a
> respected University. In addition, I have read
> over several thousand papers. I have sufficient
> background in statistics, mathematics, biology,
> chemistry, photobiology, biochemistry, and
> nutrition", and "I've written some books". All
> egotistical and irrelevant - an appeal to
> authority fallacy. Unfortunately, this person is
> no one's authority, though I'm sure it makes them
> feel better about themselves by thinking they are.


My dear boy, you become more aware of your ignorance
when you understand science, when you have read tens
of thousands of papers, and you also become more skeptical.

As a matter of fact, yes, people have given me money for
providing advice. But I stopped accepting money because I
do not have a Ph.D. in the appropriate field. I did work
my butt off for my books but I also appealed to higher
authorities (MDs and Ph.Ds) to make sure that they what I
wrote was sound.

What I do have is a healthy dose of skepticism. I earned
that. I estimate that it took maybe 10,000 hours of hard
work. I do not believe in magical thinking but I do believe in
organic chemistry. I suggest you visit your local CC and take
it. Maybe then you will not be so harsh. It will also enhance
your ability to understand journal articles and place less
credence on the utterances of gurus. Sometimes they say good
things, sometimes bad, but wouldn't you rather be in a better
position to reject that which is bad? Education can give you
that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/03/2015 04:02AM by arugula.

"Sometimes they say good
things, sometimes bad, but wouldn't you rather be in a better
position to reject that which is bad?"

I can - and all signs point towards super foods being extremely beneficial. No I do not believe thousands or even hundreds of scientific studies which have proven major health benefits are all inaccurate or unreliable, especially when combined with the countless testimonials. I'm also not going to disregard a 2,000+ year old medicine system. Even if we wanted to say all those studies were unreliable, science isn't everything. Something can be true and not have a scientific study behind it. Given that TCM has been practiced for a long time, they have their different remedies for different diseases and plenty of very positive testimonials behind them. Anecdotal evidence is evidence too.

There is some good science on E3 live, chlorella and spirulina that has been published. They certainly have helped me as top ups to the diet. Some interesting stuff on wheatgrass too.

>I can - and all signs point towards super foods being extremely beneficial.



That is completely not the point, whether they are "beneficial" or not.

The point is, is there something Special and unique that is better than non"superfoods", not available with non superfoods.


you would still claim yes, no doubt. i would definitely claim no, taking what i know into consideration.

which is fine and leads to the logical result that you eat them and i don't

"The point is, is there something Special and unique that is better than non"superfoods", not available with non superfoods."

There is, try fighting a severely depleted immune system with blueberries or lettuce - not happening. However, you add high doses of medicinal mushrooms to the equation and then you'll start seeing some progress. The reasoning is very simple - medicinal mushrooms contain very high levels of polysaccharides (mainly Beta-glucans) which work by activating powerful immune responses that increase the production of T-cells, B-cells and NK cell activity. You also miss out on an abundance of phytochemicals when you only opt for common foods.

To JTP:
IN this world, you will meet many different kinds of people who will not want to take herbs and supplements. You need to learn to accept that and not strain relationships over a different opinion. Sometimes there will be NO meeting of the minds and NO agreement on the subject. BEst to focus on what you do agree on and have in common.

Before I begin, I just want to say that there is a ton of research in China about Chinese medicine. It is not anecdotal. THe latest herb books reference the studies and also even some western herb books do too, now. But even with tons of data and research, there is no need to argue, JTP! Be at peace with those you commune with.

The following stories do not reflect on Arugula. I am just sharing them for JTP to help avoid a lot of frustration in his youth.

One of my closest friends doesn't get excited about "alternative" foods and supplements. Once she broke her vertebrae in a bad fall. I came over to put an herbal poultice on her. I mixed it up and put it on. IN about an hour, she took it off and threw it away. She told me the smell bothered her boyfriend. THe smell was of WHEAT GERM OIL!!!. She healed very slowly after that and it tooks months to heal, but she didn't want to stink in front of her new, younger boyfriend. She never got into eating like me. She eventually became a maternity nurse. She is very science based and just doesn't care about many things I am into. But we remain good friends. We never argue.

I never try to talk about herbs around my supplement teachers in functional medicine. They are working with different parameters. Why go there?

Some people are science based and don't want to get involved and then others just don't believe in it for other reasons, like religion.

Once I was called out to a Christian compound to help an older lady. IT looked to me like she had a stroke but they didn't take her to the hospital. They believed in faith healing. IF done within 24 hours, acupuncture can greatly relieve stroke symptoms after a stroke. Every day after that initial day, the success will be less. I was called in a week after her incident. I got ready everything to do acupuncture on her. Right before I was about to begin, she said, "I am going to trust God. God will heal me. Only God will heal me." I said, "God sent me to you, mam" (God didn't whisper in my ear, but enough good fortune has come into my life the last 20 years to get me to a certain skill level, that I interpreted it that way.) I walked to her kitchen and I said, "look at what you have been eating all these years. God didn't make this food (it was filled with nasty processed stuff from grocery aisles that healthy people would never walk down.). Why are you putting this on God?"
She insisted that she would only pray and that is the only way she would accept a healing. SO I ended up treating someone else at the compound and left. They finally took her to the hospital and yes, she had a stroke and after that, she was permanently paralyzed.

You have to be at peace, JTP! Another main reason people will never want to go along is because of their current diet. Some people are really attached to meat and dairy and hence they tend to rely on doctors and drugs. Eventually you learn to just accept that. I tried arguing for years until i learned to detach. I played Dr. Klapper's video of pulling the fat out of an artery to my grandfather. I think the tape was called DIet for A new America by JOhn Robbins. I begged my grandfather to change his diet, because of his heart. HE didn't change his diet. He had quadruple bypass. I can't remember how many years the surgery lasted. Maybe 15-18 years? Towards the end, he told me he regretted his decision. Oh, the misery of dying from that procedure. Anyway, you have to detach JTP and respect other people's right to their opinion.

And lastly, JTP, some people have found other ways that are just as good as supplements and herbs. i won't talk about them here, but the point is that everyone does not have to agree.

Also, the bottom line is that the world is not set up for everyone to agree. If everyone decided to take western herbs, Chinese medicine, blue green algae, high qualtiy seaweed right now, there wouldn't be ENOUGH for everyone to share. Look at what happened in Bolivia. They were exporting too much quinoa to America and there wasn't enough for the locals to eat, because the price increased. The same with CHinese medicine. SOme of the best CHinse medicine is sent OUT of China, to the detriment of the mainland CHinese, because the locals can't afford the high prices.
Then some of our BEST ginseng in America is taken by the rich Asians and now prices have skyrocketed and now they are illegally stealing protected ginseng in America.
The most disgusting part of HERB GREED is that many herbs are grown with pesticides and fungicides. like ginseng to keep up with the demand. It's a big mess.
We have to have more herb farms. WE have to get people thinking of the next generation when it comes to cultivating slow growing plants.

So I honestly like Arugula's message. It's nice to get people self-sufficient as much as possible and get their priorities straight. I am swimming in supplements, western and Chinese herbs in my pharmacy. They are all excellent and helpful. But what am I going to tell someone who has no money for any of it? It's nice to share Arugula's message with them.

Thanks for the post, Tai, I agree. Some people seem like they will never change, regardless of anything, for whatever reason - could be many. I just wish people were more open-minded. For example, you don't have to use herbs or super foods, but at least respect their healing abilities and benefits. I use both whenever possible but I still acknowledge that they are not needed to be healthy. Arugula's message could potentially be dangerous to those with a serious disease because she could tell this person that TCM herbs or super foods only serve to make companies money and therefore would not help, taking a major healing opportunity away from a person in desperate need. That's mainly where the frustration is - I really couldn't care less if she personally believes that and refuses to take them, doesn't bother me one bit. I guess there shouldn't be any frustration anyways, though, as this is just a forum and isn't being read by the vast majority of people on the planet.

JTP wrote:
Arugula's message could potentially be dangerous to those with a serious disease because she could tell this person that TCM herbs or super foods only serve to make companies money and therefore would not help, taking a major healing opportunity away from a person in desperate need.

Tai:
I just joined this forum, so I have no idea of the interactions you all have had in the past. TO this point, I have not read anything potentially dangerous from Arugula, and of course, I haven't read everything.

LEt's take this quote from her post on this thread:
"If it's a specific vitamin (like D or B12) it's very important. Everything else should be gotten from food. Real food, like with seeds, or stems/leaves/roots/nuts/seeds. "

Tai:
It turns out...this is what herbal medicine IS. It is seeds, stems, leaves, roots, nuts and seeds, legumes, too and berries and a few other funny things like mushrooms, tree bark, etc. I have these items in mason jars and my Chinese drawer herb cabinet. The only label is the name in latin, chinese and pinyin. Minimal labeling (or no Chinese if it's western). I mix up these dried herbs and put them in a ziplock bag and hand it to the person with their name on it and instructions. Minimal labeling. I am a VEGAN herbalist, so I weed out the non-vegan stuff in Chinese medicine, that it is notorious for. I only have so much space, so most of my formulas are pre-made and the only label is the name of the formula and ingredients. A person needs a textbook to look up the data on them.

Anyway, from Arugula's comments, I just don't see someone running away scared from the dried herbs in jars at their health food store.

She has every right to bring up studies that show toxicity in superfoods, such as the microcystins. That is her right and she might even feel, her duty. MIke Adams, the health ranger, has done it too...showing heavy metals in protein powder. NOthing wrong in trying to help people that way. SOmetimes less is more. LIke the story I shared about a man whose fresh raw green juice from Whole Foods was making him sick, because it was SPRAYED greens and his body was poisoned by the pesticides. Also, she seems very open-minded. She asked to see the studies. I would present them, but I would have to mail her a giant textbook of studies, which is too expensive. Let her keep her focus on American foods. I like that. WE need specialists in everything.

Tai Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> JTP wrote:
> Arugula's message could potentially be dangerous
> to those with a serious disease because she could
> tell this person that TCM herbs or super foods
> only serve to make companies money and therefore
> would not help, taking a major healing opportunity
> away from a person in desperate need.
>
> Tai:
> I just joined this forum, so I have no idea of the
> interactions you all have had in the past. TO
> this point, I have not read anything potentially
> dangerous from Arugula, and of course, I haven't
> read everything.
>
> LEt's take this quote from her post on this
> thread:
> "If it's a specific vitamin (like D or B12) it's
> very important. Everything else should be gotten
> from food. Real food, like with seeds, or
> stems/leaves/roots/nuts/seeds. "
>
> Tai:
> It turns out...this is what herbal medicine IS.
> It is seeds, stems, leaves, roots, nuts and seeds,
> legumes, too and berries and a few other funny
> things like mushrooms, tree bark, etc. I have
> these items in mason jars and my Chinese drawer
> herb cabinet. The only label is the name in latin,
> chinese and pinyin. Minimal labeling (or no
> Chinese if it's western). I mix up these dried
> herbs and put them in a ziplock bag and hand it to
> the person with their name on it and instructions.
> Minimal labeling. I am a VEGAN herbalist, so I
> weed out the non-vegan stuff in Chinese medicine,
> that it is notorious for. I only have so much
> space, so most of my formulas are pre-made and the
> only label is the name of the formula and
> ingredients. A person needs a textbook to look up
> the data on them.
>
> Anyway, from Arugula's comments, I just don't see
> someone running away scared from the dried herbs
> in jars at their health food store.
>
> She has every right to bring up studies that show
> toxicity in superfoods, such as the microcystins.
> That is her right and she might even feel, her
> duty. MIke Adams, the health ranger, has done it
> too...showing heavy metals in protein powder.
> NOthing wrong in trying to help people that way.
> SOmetimes less is more. LIke the story I shared
> about a man whose fresh raw green juice from Whole
> Foods was making him sick, because it was SPRAYED
> greens and his body was poisoned by the
> pesticides. Also, she seems very open-minded. She
> asked to see the studies. I would present them,
> but I would have to mail her a giant textbook of
> studies, which is too expensive. Let her keep her
> focus on American foods. I like that. WE need
> specialists in everything.


I was referring strictly to her comments on super foods and TCM, which you're right, they are also stems, leaves, roots, berries, etc., which is partly why I find it odd that people have a hard time believing they are medicinal. What I meant could be dangerous was is if someone wanted her advice for a particular condition and read that some type of super food or TCM remedy was very beneficial and consulted with her about it, and she said it was all a bogus marketing scam, it takes away a healing opportunity. Yes, it's important to know the potential downsides of certain foods - I was pointing out that it's also important to be able to differentiate high-quality from low-quality.

Tai Wrote:


> And lastly, JTP, some people have found other ways
> that are just as good as supplements and herbs. i
> won't talk about them here, but the point is that
> everyone does not have to agree.



this i am interested in! make another thread perhaps?

To remind everyone about the difference between "alternative" medicine and allopathic medicine:

When an alternative therapy is tested and found to work, it becomes mainstream.

If it is not mainstream,

A. you are experimenting

B. It might work.

C. It might not work.

Pointing out the facts of a relatively high probability that a particular therapy is experimentation and potentially a failure is not doing harm in any way, shape, or form.

Let's not forget the Gerson therapy included injections of animal liver. People died from these injections.

Gerson - animal liver? I have seen several videos, read some stuff...and never ever heard of any injections, let alone 'animal liver'.

I would say that if you use official medicine, you are gambling with your life. I would say that official medicine is not made to cure anything. I would also say that a lot of 'official' food is made to kill you. And a lot of official medicine also has murderous side effects.

Nothing official is good. Nothing. Turn off your TV forever.

"When an alternative therapy is tested and found to work, it becomes mainstream.

If it is not mainstream,

A. you are experimenting

B. It might work.

C. It might not work.?


1.) Many mainstream therapies and drugs not only do not work but come with tons of harsh side effects.

2.) Drugs go mainstream when the FDA and big pharma stand to make a large profit - it has nothing to do with curing, safety, or effectiveness.

3.) Because of #2, many natural cures will never go mainstream because they don't result in profits for the FDA and pharmaceutical industry. If it cannot be patented and turned into a drug, it's useless to them.

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "The point is, is there something Special and
> unique that is better than non"superfoods", not
> available with non superfoods."
>
> There is, try fighting a severely depleted immune
> system with blueberries or lettuce - not
> happening.

that is a false choice.

try and get it through your head that some people do not agree with you and have very good reasons to do so.


However, you add high doses of
> medicinal mushrooms to the equation and then
> you'll start seeing some progress. The reasoning
> is very simple - medicinal mushrooms contain very
> high levels of polysaccharides (mainly
> Beta-glucans) which work by activating powerful
> immune responses that increase the production of
> T-cells, B-cells and NK cell activity. You also
> miss out on an abundance of phytochemicals when
> you only opt for common foods.

you have shown that you have no idea of the body's many healing capabilities , therefore you ignore them. then you overstate or misrepresent cures by outside agents.

Tai Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To JTP:
> IN this world, you will meet many different kinds

> One of my closest friends doesn't get excited
> about "alternative" foods and supplements. Once
> she broke her vertebrae in a bad fall. I came
> over to put an herbal poultice on her. I mixed it
> up and put it on. IN about an hour, she took it
> off and threw it away. She told me the smell
> bothered her boyfriend. THe smell was of WHEAT
> GERM OIL!!!. She healed very slowly after that
> and it tooks months to heal, but she didn't want
> to stink in front of her new, younger boyfriend.


Tai,

i like everything you shared in this post.

however, above you are trying to imply something, that with the poultice she would have healed faster and there is no evidence to support that implication.

this is likely akin to much of the evidence that leads you to "know that herbs work", and you are simply believing that which you want to believe. your identity/money is tied to it. you do not have a valid control to compare to.

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for the post, Tai, I agree. Some people
> seem like they will never change, regardless of
> anything, for whatever reason - could be many. I
> just wish people were more open-minded. For
> example, you don't have to use herbs or super
> foods, but at least respect their healing
> abilities and benefits.

you still don't get it.

I (and many other intelligent people) do not respect their alleged healing abilities and alleged benefits.

i am not less smart than you , I am not less scientific than you , i am not more dogmatic than you.

I use both whenever
> possible but I still acknowledge that they are not
> needed to be healthy. Arugula's message could
> potentially be dangerous to those with a serious
> disease because she could tell this person that
> TCM herbs or super foods only serve to make
> companies money and therefore would not help,
> taking a major healing opportunity away from a
> person in desperate need.
That's mainly where the
> frustration is

and that frustration is INVALID.

And YOUR recommendations may DAMAGE people should they decide to do what you recommend.

*Sigh*

Here comes fresh with one of his irritated, dogmatic tangents again. Hope you're having fun buddy

Fresh wrote:
however, above you are trying to imply something, that with the poultice she would have healed faster and there is no evidence to support that implication.

Tai:
Freshy, I have used this poultice on broken bones, spinal stenosis, herniated discs, all kinds of injuries and a RUPTURED disc with SUCCESS. This poultice has decades of success with tons of people (the evidence is overwhelming). It does work, in fact, my own mother said that it soothed her bones after she felt really hard and hit her face and leg. the aloe was soothing to the skin, but the poultice soothed the bones very quickly. It really would have helped. The problem with my friend is that her boyfriend was like 22 years old and was probably used to the smells of artifical everything. Also, FYI poultices are just the icing on the cake, to a regimen of internal herbs and/or raw juices, super nutrition when healing a serious injury. LIke when my finger was crushed in the trunk of a car (stuck there). I used the poultice, but my focus was on more powerful things for its healing. The worst injury I helped to "Cure" was a ruptured disc that needed surgery. I shared the story under Jeremy Safron thread. Again the poultice was a small percentage of the fix, but most of the healing came from treatments and internal herbs. I am not saying a poultice is the end all be all, but they are useful.

You talk about money. Haha. I am rarely ever paid extra for any extras I do. People only want to pay for acupuncture and that's it. They don't want to pay for herb consultations, except if that's all they come for. But to get the job done, I have to employ many, many things and since they never heard of it, they don't really want to pay for it or simply can't for it. If it didn't work, trust me, I would not use it and that would save me a ton of time and money. It has been a huge sacrifice to maintain a herb pharmacy and have the space to do it compared to my colleagues who don't have one.
You talk about my money/identity. Not so. It's called compassion. How many times have I treated/helped people for free? Many more times than I ever was paid for.

You talk about controlled tests. WHat do you think they do in China? They have a billion more people there than in America and two thousand years of extensive herb use. Let me share something with you Fresh. They have words in Chinese that describe things in the human body that most westerners don't understand, don't have a clue about. I can have more of an interesting talk with Russians who respect Chinese medicine, because the smart Russians have been making machines that align with Chinese medicine and they are ahead of the game. ANyway, just because it hasn't been stamped by the american seal of approval doesn't mean it's not valid.

At least ethnic culture medicine doesn't pollute the planet's water supply and landfills with pharmaceuticals and chemicals.

Peace



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/06/2015 08:59PM by Tai.

Tai,

thanks for sharing all that.

a real study with controls would be nice.

I'm not saying poultice does nothing but it seems you're extending it into realms beyond its ken.