Arugula wrote:
There is significantly less evidence for sea vegetables

Tai:
So where do you/the literature recommend to get iodine from a food source? What test do you recommend to check levels? Do you eat seaweed, and if so, what kind?

Arugula wrote:
sprouts can provide profound benefits in the context of a balanced diet. By balanced, I mean no deficiencies are present and energy balance is as desired.

Tai:
Didn't you say you ate beans? What is the difference between regular beans and sprouted beans? Aren't sprouted beans also just considered sprouts, as well?

Arugula wrote:
Pablo J, Banack SA, Cox PA, Johnson TE, Papapetropoulos S, Bradley WG, Buck A, Mash DC. Cyanobacterial neurotoxin BMAA in ALS and Alzheimer's disease. Acta Neurol Scand. 2009 Oct;120(4):216-25. Epub 2009 Feb 26.

Tai:
Since we can't read that for free, how did those people get exposed to those neurotoxins? Swimming? Do you know the most economical way to read papers like that? Sometimes I want to read some papers and they cost a lot $$. I always wondered if there was a bundle package or something.

It seems some people like blue green algae for B-12. What do you think about certain probiotics as a source? Lou Corona said he was one of the few vegans that tested normal for B-12, even though he didn't ingest it for years, but just consumed probiotics regularly.

What source of b12 do you commonly recommend to vegans? What is the best test do you recommend for checking levels?

Arugula wrote:
Let's not forget the Gerson therapy included injections of animal liver. People died from these injections.

Tai:
Ooh. Gruesome. That was before my time of being exposed to it. WHere can you read about that? What was up with Max creating a vegan program and then including raw liver? And what do you think about Charlotte following the Gerson program all these decades (she's like 92 or something) and including some non-fat milk or yogurt? Besides the abandoned injections, do you have any good things to say about the Gerson therapy? What do you think about his book, The Cancer Therapy: Results of Fifty Cases and the Cure of Advanced Cancer by Diet Therapy. People always want the evidence from HHI, and here Gerson put out a book so many decades ago about his cases.

Lastly, do you think vegans can have too low cholesterol (that's what my functional medicine teachers say), if they are otherwise healthy? What do you think about raising cholesterol with coconut oil? I heard it is possible. Last time I checked my cholesterol was like 126. I don't like coconut oil, but I like fresh coconut milk, which is pretty oily. ANd then there is coconut manna, which is just creamed mature coconut in a dried state. IT's like peanut butter, just with pure coconut. The oil separates to the top.

You mentioned flax before...what about flax oil? What is the best omega 3 source? By the way, I just saw conventional chia seed for sale at the MExican market for $2.50 a lb (people claim chia is not sprayed. I don't know). I bought organic chia seed for $5/lb and really stocked up. Buying in bulk and sharing with friends lowers the costs.

Thank you very much!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2015 06:38AM by Tai.

P.S. What do you think about Esselstyn saying to avoid oil and fruit juice? Is that only if you have heart disease? What do you think about his message?

Did he mean that absolutely? Doesn't fruit juice become something else, when it is blended with green leaves or similar things to make a smoothie?

I wrote this quickly. I didn't mean this exclusively for Arugula. Anyone is welcome to share.

Has anyone seen their cholesterol go up by eating coconut oil or whole mature coconut products?

What are people's experiences with the different B-12 products out there, including the patches?

What do people think of Esselstyn and his diet recommendation?

"What are people's experiences with the different B-12 products out there, including the patches?"

I used 'LifeGive B12 Forte' from HHI and found it was a great product - one bottle lasts about six and a half months. When I stopped taking it, I had a noticeable mood drop with increased irritability, but then I started taking higher doses of AFA blue-green algae and that disappeared. This was over six months ago and I haven't supplemented with B12 ever since.

Are there any non supplementing vegan?

Tai wrote:

"It seems some people like blue green algae for B-12. What do you think about certain probiotics as a source? Lou Corona said he was one of the few vegans that tested normal for B-12, even though he didn't ingest it for years, but just consumed probiotics regularly".


Various studies have shown that chlorella and ferments do have B12, and a vegan can double the levels using these foods, but one study also showed that people consuming these foods were still short on B12. However, everyone is different and it appears some people do get enough B12 to get by when doing ferments and algaes. Viktoras Kulvinskas claims he was hopelessly deficient in B12 desoite doing ferments, sprouts and alges, but after deep cleansing he was able to manufacture B12 himself.


Hydrilla algae is supposed to work for some people in maintaining enough B12 to function according to jtprindl. In fact the analysis shows that it contains 7,750 the rda for B12, but what B12 are analogues v's the real B12??

Now...John Rose brought up an very VERY interesting point when he seriously questioned the work of Victor Herbert when he said that the body has mainly B12 analogues so it shouldn't matter if the foods have analogues because the body may be able to use analogues (I think that's what John was getting at). Now...l brought this point up to someone and they said that this is not the case at all because those analogues reside in different areas and the effect is different. He gave a good technical answer but l can't remember exactly what he said, nor can l find the notes l took on this.


Tai wrote:


" What source of b12 do you commonly recommend to vegans?"

Certainly not the cooked synthetic source via injections, l recommend a unique bacterial soil based B12 from HHI. It hit the b12 wall and could barely get off the couch, but as soon as l got onto HHI b12 l was fine.

Dr Gabreil Cousens says in the modern world of stress we burn up B12 faster than ever so we need high levels of B12, and he says that lots of people get good benefit when they exceed the rda. Personally l think we should be consuming well in excess of the rda for B12.


Tai wrote:

" What is the best test do you recommend for checking levels?"

Definitely a blood spectra test which also tests for homocysteine, 2-methylcitric acid, and Methylmalonic acid levels (MMA). Why? Because testing for B12 levels is pretty much meaningless because all people have various levels of need for B12 in order to be effective in comating various health conditions such as high homocysteine. BUT, this is not enough either because various body disfunctioning can also mask other symptoms that can make B12 give a reading which is accurate so it means that the certain level of B12 may not be doing it'sjob as effectively as people think, so we must also check against Methylmalonic acid levels, BUT these levels are also not fail proof indicators or real B12 needs because other health concerns can also give us a false conclusion so we must also check against 2-methylcitric acid to make sure B12 is doing it's job in protecting the body properly. I have written quite a bit about B12 in the past....took months of research and about 40 hours to write the paper....still isn't perfect.

Sorry l can't write anymore and find all my notes and really nailthis post, but l haven't the time right now...just writing a quick lunch time post.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2015 01:55AM by The Sproutarian Man.

Quote

Viktoras Kulvinskas claims he was hopelessly deficient in B12 desoite doing ferments, sprouts and alges, but after deep cleansing he was able to manufacture B12 himself.

I believe he credits enemas and wheatgrass implants as playing a very important role.

Living Food Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Viktoras Kulvinskas claims he was hopelessly
> deficient in B12 desoite doing ferments, sprouts
> and alges, but after deep cleansing he was able to
> manufacture B12 himself.
>
> I believe he credits enemas and wheatgrass
> implants as playing a very important role.

Yes, and probiotc ferments. He talks about it in this excellent 6 part series somewhere.

Viktoras Kulvinskas @ Raw Spirit Festival DC 8/30/09 Part 1/6
[www.youtube.com]

Vik really sees the big picture.

Brian Clement's ideas on B12 are also very interesting. His ideas run contrary to those of Vik's.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2015 03:04AM by The Sproutarian Man.

Thanks Sprouty.
I never got into Vik. I kind of got turned off by his book and also by his way of speaking. But you have introduced him in an important way to me and I will revisit him.
Thanks for the B-12 info. I am going to compare prices with my current lab and spectracell and I will share later.
I also read that aloe has B-12.
What strains of ferments produce more B-12?

Nori can also be a good source of B12, but the real B12 converts to analogues sometimes in dried Nori. The B12 seems to be inside the Nori rather than just on the surface, same goes with chlorella.

I'll get back to the ferment stuff with some B12 studies later.

www.thesproutarian.com

The Sproutarian Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nori can also be a good source of B12, but the
> real B12 converts to analogues sometimes in dried
> Nori. The B12 seems to be inside the Nori rather
> than just on the surface, same goes with
> chlorella.
>
> I'll get back to the ferment stuff with some B12
> studies later.

I have read that it is located 5 atom deep in the nori. I read so many studies that I was convinced if I ate enough raw sun dried nori I would be ok in the vitamin B12 department - I actually thought I could up my B12 level, which was fine already, to Japanese levels. I was wrong. Not only was I unable to raise my B12 but I became deficient in it! This is not the first time I've reported this here.

The Sproutarian Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Tai wrote:
>
> " What is the best test do you recommend for
> checking levels?"
>
> Definitely a blood spectra test which also tests
> for homocysteine, 2-methylcitric acid, and
> Methylmalonic acid levels (MMA). Why? Because
> testing for B12 levels is pretty much meaningless
> because all people have various levels of need for
> B12 in order to be effective in comating various
> health conditions such as high homocysteine. BUT,
> this is not enough either because various body
> disfunctioning can also mask other symptoms that
> can make B12 give a reading which is accurate so
> it means that the certain level of B12 may not be
> doing it'sjob as effectively as people think, so
> we must also check against Methylmalonic acid
> levels, BUT these levels are also not fail proof
> indicators or real B12 needs because other health
> concerns can also give us a false conclusion so we
> must also check against 2-methylcitric acid to
> make sure B12 is doing it's job in protecting the
> body properly. I have written quite a bit about
> B12 in the past....took months of research and
> about 40 hours to write the paper....still isn't
> perfect.
>
> Sorry l can't write anymore and find all my notes
> and really nailthis post, but l haven't the time
> right now...just writing a quick lunch time post.

TSM, what are your results from your recommended tests results? Let's get down to it.

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Sproutarian Man Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> > Tai wrote:
> >
> > " What is the best test do you recommend for
> > checking levels?"
> >
> > Definitely a blood spectra test which also
> tests
> > for homocysteine, 2-methylcitric acid, and
> > Methylmalonic acid levels (MMA). Why? Because
> > testing for B12 levels is pretty much
> meaningless
> > because all people have various levels of need
> for
> > B12 in order to be effective in comating
> various
> > health conditions such as high homocysteine.
> BUT,
> > this is not enough either because various body
> > disfunctioning can also mask other symptoms
> that
> > can make B12 give a reading which is accurate
> so
> > it means that the certain level of B12 may not
> be
> > doing it'sjob as effectively as people think,
> so
> > we must also check against Methylmalonic acid
> > levels, BUT these levels are also not fail
> proof
> > indicators or real B12 needs because other
> health
> > concerns can also give us a false conclusion so
> we
> > must also check against 2-methylcitric acid to
> > make sure B12 is doing it's job in protecting
> the
> > body properly. I have written quite a bit about
> > B12 in the past....took months of research and
> > about 40 hours to write the paper....still
> isn't
> > perfect.
> >
> > Sorry l can't write anymore and find all my
> notes
> > and really nailthis post, but l haven't the
> time
> > right now...just writing a quick lunch time
> post.
>
> TSM, what are your results from your recommended
> tests results? Let's get down to it.

I'd really like to know.

Tai, here are some responses. I hope I addressed all of your questions.

Neurotoxins in cyanobacteria
------------------------------------------------------------

Here are some free papers:

[archive.org]
[kops.uni-konstanz.de]
[archimer.ifremer.fr]


Some people got ALS from eating cycads and/or animals that ate cycads.
Others can be exposed from bathing in infected waters and eating contaminated
foodstuff. Others will get it from eating contaminated fish and mollusks
or aersolized toxins.


B12
-----------------------------------------------------------------
in plants:
"It cannot be emphasized enough that until a particular food, obtained from multiple regions, consistently improves vitamin B12 status (via lowering MMA levels), it should not be relied upon as a source of vitamin B12."
[www.veganhealth.org]


There are traces of B12-like analogues in some alage and cyanobacteria
that are inactive. Do not count on them as appreciable sources, or as
sources at all for that matter.

I use NOW Foods Methylcobalamin or Cyanocobalamin. I can't say anything
about regular testing. I think people should take it if there is any doubt.


Iodine
---------------------------------------------------------------
Tai, I use iodized salt. It is maybe $0.37/lb.

Beans
------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, I eat cooked and raw legumes. I feel that they help me strike a balance
between not too much fruit and not too much fat. The difference between sprouted and unsprouted is that the sprouted version becomes more green-like with fewer
calories and more water. The nutrient profile depends on the length
of the sprout.

Gerson
----------------------------------------------------------------
[www.quackwatch.org]
Between 1980 and 1986 at least 13 patients treated with Gerson therapy were admitted to San Diego area hospitals with Campylobacter fetus sepsis attributable to the liver injections. None of the patients was cancer-free, and one died of his malignancy within a week.

Ref:
Ginsberg MM and others. Campylobacter sepsis associated with "nutritional therapy"—California. MMWR 30:294-295, 1981.

I think eating lots of fresh f+v is always a great idea and there is a lot of support for that part. The liver injections and enemas are not supported at all.


Lastly, do you think vegans can have too low cholesterol (that's what my functional medicine teachers say), if they are otherwise healthy?
-----------------------------------------------

No. One study found that typical young Sicilian boys on their traditional veg-like diet had 120 mg/dL. It went up as they age. Higher is not better. You don't need high HDL if your LDL is low.

What do you think about raising cholesterol with coconut oil?
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Very bad idea. Coconut oil is not a health food. It should be an occasional treat, used sparingly. It is atherogenic. Not as much as cooked but still more so than a PUFA like canola oil.

what about flax oil?
----------------------------
Too expensive. You can get ground flax from the bulk bin for $2/lb. Grind 1 tbsp fresh in the coffee grinder just before eating. But I believe the ideal way to get a good O6:O3 balance is to rely on whole plant foods emphasizing a lot of greens, a lot of variety, and not too much fat is ideal.

Oils of any kind
-----------------------------------------------------------
Generally to be avoided but I still use EVOO sparingly. Oils that we eat in appreciable quantities (say more than 2 g/day) are never health foods. They are just relatively empty extra calories that make food taste good. Might make an exception for vegan DHA+EPA but the quantities taken are small.

Probiotics
--------------------------------------------------------------------
I do not believe that a mostly or completely raw vegan eating copious quantitites of unprocessed f+v has any need for them. We have the healthiest populations of friendly gut bacteria of anyone! But if you are relying mostly on juices and fats, maybe you should take them.

JMHO.

Effect of a Klamath algae product ("AFA-B12" on blood levels of vitamin B12 and homocysteine in vegan subjects: a pilot study - "Compared to the control period, in the intervention period participants improved their vitamin B12 status, significantly reducing Hcy blood concentration (p=0.003). In conclusion, the Klamath algae product AFA-B12 appears to be, in a preliminary study, an adequate and reliable source of vitamin B12 in humans". - [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Vitamin B-12 status of long-term adherents of a strict uncooked vegan diet ("living food diet" is compromised - "The vegans consuming Nori and/or Chlorella seaweeds (n = 16) had serum vitamin B-12 concentrations twice as high as those not using these seaweeds (n = 5) (mean 221 pmol/L, range 75-408, vs. 105, 35-252, P = 0.025). In the longitudinal study, six of nine vegans showed slow, but consistent deterioration of vitamin B-12 status over a 2-y observation period. On the basis of these results we conclude that some seaweeds consumed in large amounts can supply adequate amounts of bioavailable vitamin B-12". - [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Characterization of vitamin B12 compounds from Korean purple laver (Porphyra sp.) products - "These results suggest that Korean purple laver products would be excellent vitamin B(12) sources for humans, especially vegetarians". - [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]



"The liver injections and enemas are not supported at all."

I would recommend you become familiar with Dr. Nick Gonzalez's work and his vast success with coffee enema's.

"It is atherogenic."

Maybe cooked or refined or heavily processed coconut oil is - but not raw extra-virgin coconut oil. We've already discussed this and I've shown you why this was incorrect. I'll explain it to you again - Fats in general are not atherogenic and do not cause heart disease - inflammation causes heart disease. Cooked fats and excessive omega-6's are highly inflammatory, but it's not the fat, it's the inflammation caused by poor dietary factors (eating highly cooked fats and low omega-3's).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/06/2015 10:17PM by jtprindl.

Meta-analysis of prospective cohort studies evaluating the association of saturated fat with cardiovascular disease - "During 5–23 y of follow-up of 347,747 subjects, 11,006 developed CHD or stroke. Intake of saturated fat was not associated with an increased risk of CHD, stroke, or CVD. The pooled relative risk estimates that compared extreme quantiles of saturated fat intake were 1.07 (95% CI: 0.96, 1.19; P = 0.22) for CHD, 0.81 (95% CI: 0.62, 1.05; P = 0.11) for stroke, and 1.00 (95% CI: 0.89, 1.11; P = 0.95) for CVD. Consideration of age, sex, and study quality did not change the results... A meta-analysis of prospective epidemiologic studies showed that there is no significant evidence for concluding that dietary saturated fat is associated with an increased risk of CHD or CVD. More data are needed to elucidate whether CVD risks are likely to be influenced by the specific nutrients used to replace saturated fat". - [ajcn.nutrition.org]


Association of Dietary, Circulating, and Supplement Fatty Acids With Coronary Risk: A Systematic Review and Meta-analysis - "There were 32 observational studies (512 420 participants) of fatty acids from dietary intake; 17 observational studies (25 721 participants) of fatty acid biomarkers; and 27 randomized, controlled trials (105 085 participants) of fatty acid supplementation. In observational studies, relative risks for coronary disease were 1.03 (95% CI, 0.98 to 1.07) for saturated, 1.00 (CI, 0.91 to 1.10) for monounsaturated, 0.87 (CI, 0.78 to 0.97) for long-chain ?-3 polyunsaturated, 0.98 (CI, 0.90 to 1.06) for ?-6 polyunsaturated, and 1.16 (CI, 1.06 to 1.27) for trans fatty acids when the top and bottom thirds of baseline dietary fatty acid intake were compared. Corresponding estimates for circulating fatty acids were 1.06 (CI, 0.86 to 1.30), 1.06 (CI, 0.97 to 1.17), 0.84 (CI, 0.63 to 1.11), 0.94 (CI, 0.84 to 1.06), and 1.05 (CI, 0.76 to 1.44), respectively. There was heterogeneity of the associations among individual circulating fatty acids and coronary disease. In randomized, controlled trials, relative risks for coronary disease were 0.97 (CI, 0.69 to 1.36) for a-linolenic, 0.94 (CI, 0.86 to 1.03)for long-chain ?-3 polyunsaturated, and 0.86 (CI, 0.69 to 1.07) for ?-6 polyunsaturated fatty acid supplementations... Current evidence does not clearly support cardiovascular guidelines that encourage high consumption of polyunsaturated fatty acids and low consumption of total saturated fats". - [annals.org]


Dietary intake of saturated fat by food source and incident cardiovascular disease: the Multi-Ethnic Study of Atherosclerosis - "Although dietary recommendations have focused on restricting saturated fat (SF) consumption to reduce cardiovascular disease (CVD) risk, evidence from prospective studies has not supported a strong link between total SF intake and CVD events... A higher intake of dairy SF was associated with LOWER CVD risk. In contrast, a higher intake of meat SF was associated with GREATER CVD risk. The substitution of 2% of energy from meat SF with energy from dairy SF was associated with a 25% lower CVD risk. No associations were observed plant or butter SF and CVD risk". - [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]


Cholesterol, coconuts, and diet on Polynesian atolls: a natural experiment: the Pukapuka and Tokelau island studies - "Two populations of Polynesians living on atolls near the equator provide an opportunity to investigate the relative effects of saturated fat and dietary cholesterol in determining serum cholesterol levels. The habitual diets of the toll dwellers from both Pukapuka and Tokelau are high in saturated fat but low in dietary cholesterol and sucrose. Coconut is the chief source of energy for both groups. Tokelauans obtain a much higher percentage of energy from coconut than the Pukapukans, 63% compared with 34%, so their intake of saturated fat is higher. The serum cholesterol levels are 35 to 40 mg higher in Tokelauans than in Pukapukans. These major differences in serum cholesterol levels are considered to be due to the higher saturated fat intake of the Tokelauans. Analysis of a variety of food samples, and human fat biopsies show a high lauric (12:0) and myristic (14:0) content. Vascular disease is uncommon in both populations and there is no evidence of the high saturated fat intake having a harmful effect in these populations". - [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]


Dietary intake and the risk of coronary heart disease among the coconut-consuming Minangkabau in West Sumatra, Indonesia - "Similar intakes of saturated and unsaturated fatty acids between the cases and controls indicated that the consumption of total fat or saturated fat, including that from coconut, was not a predictor for CHD in this food culture. However, the intakes of animal foods, total protein, dietary cholesterol and less plant derived carbohydrates were predictors of CHD". - [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]


Beneficial effects of virgin coconut oil on lipid parameters and in vitro LDL oxidation - "RESULTS: VCO obtained by wet process has a beneficial effect in lowering lipid components compared to CO. It reduced total cholesterol, triglycerides, phospholipids, LDL, and VLDL cholesterol levels and increased HDL cholesterol in serum and tissues. The PF of virgin coconut oil was also found to be capable of preventing in vitro LDL oxidation with reduced carbonyl formation". - [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Arugula wrote:
EVOO

Tai:
What is that?

Thanks for your responses. THe liver injections seemed retarded to me in the Gerson therapy.

JTP:
I believe you that blue green algae raises B-12 level. But the bigger issue is the toxicity issue.

Thanks for the coconut info. I can digest raw fresh coconut milk just fine (plus feeling full), but I can always tell when chefs put coconut oil in raw vegan food and desserts. IT sits in my stomach.

"I believe you that blue green algae raises B-12 level. But the bigger issue is the toxicity issue."

Personally, I think concerns are way overblown, then again I have never used a brand other than E3 Live. It's key to buy from a company that does extensive testing to ensure quality and safety. Strawberries can be toxic too if you buy from a farmer who used dirty water laced with chemicals and/or heavy metals.

Tai Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Arugula wrote:
> EVOO
>
> Tai:
> What is that?
>
extra virgin olive oil

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Effect of a Klamath algae product ("AFA-B12" on
> blood levels of vitamin B12 and homocysteine in
> vegan subjects: a pilot study - "Compared to the
> control period, in the intervention period
> participants improved their vitamin B12 status,
> significantly reducing Hcy blood concentration
> (p=0.003). In conclusion, the Klamath algae
> product AFA-B12 appears to be, in a preliminary
> study, an adequate and reliable source of vitamin
> B12 in humans". -
> [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]
>

(source:jack norris below)

Here are some problems with the study:

The authors state in the paper that homocysteine is the most reliable marker for B12 activity, but it is not. Homocysteine levels can be affected by folate intake and, to a lesser extent, vitamin B6. Methylmalonic acid levels are the most reliable marker for B12 activity. This is well known and uncontroversial, so it is odd that the researchers did not know this.
The authors noted that vitamin B6 could not have reduced the homocysteine levels because the algae has very little. They also said that folate levels could not have affected them, but in looking at the results, folate levels did increase (even though the difference was not statistically signifcant).
The homocysteine levels of these vegans started out pretty high, and when the study ended they were still much too high. A safer level is closer to 6 - 8 µmol/l.
One subject's homocysteine level increased, and one subject's homocysteine level that was about 10 µmol/l did not respond to the aglae supplementation.
The researchers obtained the algae directly from a company that produces it. It would have been more reassuring if the algae were purchased in a store where the company didn't realize it was going to be tested.
In another study from Italy (2002) (12), vegetarians had really high homocysteine levels (25 µmol/l). This is much higher than almost all other studies, which makes one wonder what's going on in Italy.

In conclusion, it appears that Aphanizomenon flos-aquae might provide some vitamin B12 activity in humans. On the other hand, it did not succeed in lowering homocysteine to an ideal level whereas vitamin B12 supplements do succeed at doing so. At this time, it would be prudent not to rely on it for optimal health.

SueZ Wrote:

>
> I'd really like to know.

Sure Suez, l will get onto it first thing in the morning. Been busy and haven't had time to focus in the way that needs to be done. Will do so.




fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> >
>
> (source:jack norris below)
>
> Here are some problems with the study:
>
> The authors state in the paper that homocysteine
> is the most reliable marker for B12 activity, but
> it is not. Homocysteine levels can be affected by
> folate intake and, to a lesser extent, vitamin B6.
> Methylmalonic acid levels are the most reliable
> marker for B12 activity. This is well known and
> uncontroversial, so it is odd that the researchers
> did not know this.
> The authors noted that vitamin B6 could not have
> reduced the homocysteine levels because the algae
> has very little. They also said that folate levels
> could not have affected them, but in looking at
> the results, folate levels did increase (even
> though the difference was not statistically
> signifcant).
> The homocysteine levels of these vegans started
> out pretty high, and when the study ended they
> were still much too high. A safer level is closer
> to 6 - 8 µmol/l.
> One subject's homocysteine level increased, and
> one subject's homocysteine level that was about 10
> µmol/l did not respond to the aglae
> supplementation.
> The researchers obtained the algae directly from a
> company that produces it. It would have been more
> reassuring if the algae were purchased in a store
> where the company didn't realize it was going to
> be tested.
> In another study from Italy (2002) (12),
> vegetarians had really high homocysteine levels
> (25 µmol/l). This is much higher than almost all
> other studies, which makes one wonder what's going
> on in Italy.
>
> In conclusion, it appears that Aphanizomenon
> flos-aquae might provide some vitamin B12 activity
> in humans. On the other hand, it did not succeed
> in lowering homocysteine to an ideal level whereas
> vitamin B12 supplements do succeed at doing so. At
> this time, it would be prudent not to rely on it
> for optimal health.


Fresh actually got this post mainly correct...a few things were left out, but his quoting of Jack is largely correct.

Looking forward to getting stuck into this B12 topic first thing in the morning.

www.thesproutarian.com

fermentation does not create B12 unless caused by bacteria. Fermentation foods are usually man made by yeast, a fungus in single cellular mode (life form able to transform into multicellular like mushrooms). Fugus is a scavenger and it lacks the availability to produce B12. Only bacteria can make b12. If fermented food has b12 in it, it was made by bacteria. Bacteria needs cobalt in order to make b12. The difference between fungus and bacteria is big. Bacteria lacks nucleous while fungus has one and they are more complex. Nucleus cells were made by swallowing bacteria and sharing roles.

Panchito Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Fermentation foods are usually man made
> by yeast,

You are confusing alcohol fermentation with food fermentation.

The Sproutarian Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> So, all you want to know is my blood results, is
> that right? O.k, that is easy to write and won't
> take long. I haven't done a blood spectra test for
> quite a while due to the cost, but after
> supplementing my MMA, homocystine and B12 levels
> were all good. Can't remember exact figures.
>
> An all raw diet with ferments did not help me.

So for all the glowing B12 seaweed studies it seemed to have worked for neither of us then - unless you've painted an incomplete picture here. Had you been taking a lot of seaweeds before you got your tests or not?

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Sproutarian Man Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > So, all you want to know is my blood results,
> is
> > that right? O.k, that is easy to write and
> won't
> > take long. I haven't done a blood spectra test
> for
> > quite a while due to the cost, but after
> > supplementing my MMA, homocystine and B12
> levels
> > were all good. Can't remember exact figures.
> >
> > An all raw diet with ferments did not help me.
>
> So for all the glowing B12 seaweed studies it
> seemed to have worked for neither of us then -
> unless you've painted an incomplete picture here.
> Had you been taking a lot of seaweeds before you
> got your tests or not?


I was taking dried powdered kelp everyday before my tests, but no other seaweeds.

Some people do get B12 increases from dried Nori where-as other people don't. Why? Could be a bunch of things, but maybe the dried nori which has been hanging around a while in packets may have lost it's real B12 and converted over to analogues, or, maybe some people don't have the enzymes to properly absorb the B12 from seaweeds like stated in my above post.

If people are getting locally harvested dried seaweeds in local markets there may be a much better chance of getting the real B12, but if people are getting dried seaweeds in packets from thousands of miles away they may not be getting much B12 because it is older.

Currently l get my wakami and some kelp locally. As for Nori, l don't have it often because it is so hard to chew. Wakami is easier to chew in it's natural dried state. Kelp takes the longest to chew...1 hour for 3 teaspoons, so l mainly have kelp poweder (fermenting and blending doesn't help much).

Relying on food for B12 is too risky. Why? Regardless of whether you get enough or not, it cannot always be guaranteed we will get enough all the time when relying on dried foods for B12. We don't just want to get the rda, we want to exceed it.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2015 01:09AM by The Sproutarian Man.

TSM, for the record the nori I was taking was freshly sun dried.

Most Wakame, and most other Asian seaweeds, are steamed before packing. As a rule of thumb - if they are dark olive green they probably are not raw.

I leave chewing seaweeds up to my VitaMix and would suggest you try it that way. Some seaweeds, such as Alaria especially, are way too much for teeth to handle properly in their soaked raw state.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2015 01:29AM by SueZ.

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TSM, for the record the nori I was taking was
> freshly sun dried.


maybe it is old, or maybe you aren't absorbing the B12 from the seaweed??


>
> Most Wakame, and most other Asian seaweeds, are
> steamed before packing. As a rule of thumb - if
> they are dark olive green they probably are not
> raw.


Never knew that. Fortunately my wakami is brown, l strongly feel it is raw but l will need to check.


>
> I leave chewing seaweeds up to my VitaMix and
> would suggest you try it that way. Some seaweeds,
> such as Alaria especially, are way too much for
> teeth to handle properly in their soaked raw
> state.


Yes, l may need to blend certain seaweeds like nori and kelp on their own,otherwise l rarely eat them because they are tough.

wakami, kelp powder and dulse are easy to eat.

www.thesproutarian.com

The Sproutarian Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SueZ Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > TSM, for the record the nori I was taking was
> > freshly sun dried.
>
>
> maybe it is old,

I bought it from the collector fresh that season of harvest.


or maybe you aren't absorbing the
> B12 from the seaweed??

or maybe it wasn't really anything but analog and the studies are bogus.


> > Most Wakame, and most other Asian seaweeds, are
> > steamed before packing. As a rule of thumb - if
> > they are dark olive green they probably are not
> > raw.
>
>
> Never knew that. Fortunately my wakami is brown,

Oh oh - the only color more cooked than olive green is brown. The color doesn't lie.


l
> strongly feel it is raw but l will need to check.
>
>
>
> >
> > I leave chewing seaweeds up to my VitaMix and
> > would suggest you try it that way. Some
> seaweeds,
> > such as Alaria especially, are way too much for
> > teeth to handle properly in their soaked raw
> > state.
>
>
> Yes, l may need to blend certain seaweeds like
> nori and kelp on their own,otherwise l rarely eat
> them because they are tough.
>
> wakami, kelp powder and dulse are easy to eat.

Wakame and kelp are every bit as tough to chew, if not tougher, than nori unless they are "steamed". "Steamed", a term used interchangeably with "cleaned" is a way to get around saying "cooked" in such things as sea weed and frozen fruits. I don't think it's done deceptively I just think the parameters of the raw food community aren't in their frame of reference yet.

TSM,
thanks so much for your generous sharing.
I looked at one study you posted...tHe korean fermented soy products that have really high b-12 levels sounds intriguing, except for the many months that it takes to make. I will ask my korean friends about it.

WHat do you all think about nutritional yeast? Most strict rawists can't eat it, because it's pasteurized.
I have a certified organic brand from Europe called Bioengevita with no added synthetics and also a regular one (I believe it's a red star product with a private label) with added B-12 produced by natural fermentation (not from animal source)--8 mcg B-12 per 16g yeast. Any comments? Just best to go with the HHI brand of B-12, right?

I know people that were cured of cancer while undergoing intensive juicing and cleansing protocols, while taking Dr. Schulze's herbal products and one of them is called superfood, which is 50% nutritional yeast. In addition to herbs and food, everyone was taking "superfood" for all their vitamins and minerals (I believe Shulze used the REd star brand at least in the early years). This is what Schulze says on his current website: I have been using this type of Non-Fermentable Nutritional Yeast in my clinic with my patients, and on myself, for well over 30 years. It has created tremendous, almost miraculous, successes in healing and health-building. Now, I have formulated my own more powerful, custom-made yeast." end quote
Red star can add minerals, etc to the yeast, so my guess is that is what Schulze orders to boost his nutritional profile.
SOme people are really against nutritional yeast. I understand that, that is why I mentioned the people that I have met who were cured of cancer while taking the products. I am not really recommending his superfood, as there are superior products out there, but just mentioning it as something to compare to.

I've always wondered what raw folks think of nutritional yeast. Hear conflicting things. Gabriel Cousens for example used to recommend it, then later recommended against it as he said it promotes yeast in the body. I've heard numerous other people say this isn't so since its not active yeast or something.