I don't like the taste but it can be a good source of B-vitamins (mostly fortified), selenium, zinc and umami.

Some vegans thinks it mimics the taste of cheese.

It is a highly processed food.

I think fungi are very interesting. We are more closely related to fungi than to plants.

I'd rather eat mushrooms than nutritional yeast, though.

I do not agree with Cousens. Those yeasties will not survive passage through the GI tract.

tezcal Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've always wondered what raw folks think of
> nutritional yeast. Hear conflicting things.

Thumbs down from me on eating cooked by-products of the GMO infested alcohol industry. No thanks.

I have a question for arugula, what about THAT GUY! The bad relationship you left behind!





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2015 05:08PM by coconutcream.

Oh, that. I answered in the other thread. I can't find it, so here's the gist:

The more I got to know him, the less I wanted him. He had announced that I was going to have his baby. But the more I knew him, the less I wanted that.

He also kept announcing how lucky I was to have him. But it did not feel that way! After a while I no longer noticed his looks, only the way I felt around him, which was generally restless and bored and amazed at the enormity of his ego.

Looks are only the hook. If the rest of it isn't there, there isn't really anything there.

The end!

Now I am in a place where there are so many beautiful, brilliant men that it makes my head spin. I am usually inwardly drooling. But they have to convince me that they are nice and kind before I will spend time with them. Usually they don't!

Arugula wrote:

We have data from Luigi Fontana suggesting that those
who try to optimize every calorie have the best
biomarkers--better than the typical raw foodists
in his study.

Tai:
I did a search on this forum and I couldn't find this study. can you provide a link to it and any website or book you recommend of his? Thanks. Was he the one involved in the study of low bone mass in raw vegans?

Question to anyone/everyone:
What do you think of this b-vitamin product from Premier Research labs? I found it on Gabriels's website and I called the company and they said the product is vegan and it naturally fermented, meaning no synthetic vitamins. What other fermented B-vitamin products are available beside the B-12 forte from HHI? Thanks

[www.prlabs.com]

Tai, yes, he investigated bone mass. He has done more with raw vegans than anyone else lately.

The paper I referred to was a discussion, not a trial. Many of his papers are free. There is one focusing on raw foodists that is not free. PM me for details.

This is the paper I had previously cited.
What are the roles of calorie restriction and diet quality in promoting
healthy longevity?
Rizza W, Veronese N, Fontana L.
Ageing Res Rev. 2013 Nov 27. doi:pii: S1568-1637(13)00090-1.
10.1016/j.arr.2013.11.002. [Epub ahead of print]
PMID:24291541

Tai,

There is more data here from the 2004 CR Society conference presentation that Dr. Fontana made. Dean Pomerleau took the notes in the link below

[arc.crsociety.org]

A summary:


VO2Max:

Exercisers have it best


BMI:

Raw and CR equally best



Body Fat:

CR is better than raw



Trunk Fat:

CR is better than raw


Leptin:

CR is better than raw


Apidonectin:

CR is better than raw



Systolic BP

CR and Raw are best



Diastolic BP:
CR and Raw are best



Total Chol:

Raw is best



LDLc:

Raw is best


HDLc:

Raw, CR, and high exercise are tied



Trig:

Raw, CR, and high exercise are tied


Tg/HDLc:


Raw, CR, and high exercise are tied



Fasting glucose:

CR is better than Raw



Insulin:

CR is better than Raw



IR resistance:

CR is better than Raw



CRP:

CR is better than Raw



Artery wall thickness:

CR is better than Raw

unless one defines the specific raw diet, I don't know how much value the above has.

it's like saying vegan diet.

Exactly.

Just because it's raw does not mean it's ideal. The people who take pains to make sure they get all their vitamins and minerals (using the RDAs, gasp!) maintain high intakes of dietary fiber, and limit saturated fats, trans fats, maintain optimal O3:O6 ratios, etc. have better biomarkers than people who just do the raw thing with high fat diets, coconut oil, and juice.

Raw can be very healthy if it's done appropriately. But cooked people can do better than a typical generic raw foodist if they do it appropriately, too.

The RF vegetarians ate a variety of raw vegetables,
fruits, nuts, seeds, sprouted grains, and cereals,
dressed with olive oil (1285-2432 kcal/d; approximately
9.1% of calories from protein, 43.2% from fat,
and 47.7% from complex carbohydrates). All of them
strictly avoided cooked and processed foods containing
trans-fatty acids, highly glycemic foods, and foods of
animal origin. Their mean daily dietary intakes of calcium
and vitamin D (calciferol) were low, 579±260
mg/d and 16±36 U/d, respectively.

>RF vegetarians.

right. so not a healthy raw food diet, imo, and therefore not a fair comparison to CR.

and I do not believe there is any data comparing raw fooders getting the RDA and those not getting the RDA.

I think we can learn something from these people.

1. They did not mind their RDAs.
2. They did not supplement with B12
3. They were relatively high in fat

They were outperformed by CR types in several measures. So
one might say that these particular raw choices might perhaps
not be ideal.

On the other hand, Fontana says the CR and Raw have many
similarities and in some papers he lumps them together.

Fontana himself does not describe himself as raw. He used
to be macrobiotic which means limited fruit. He eats lots
of vegetables, some fish, but never sweets.

"have better biomarkers than people who just do the raw thing with high fat diets, coconut oil, and juice."


This was never shown, but if it was, please answer these questions:

1.) Were those on raw high-fat diets maintaining healthy omega-3 to omega-6 ratios?

2.) What kind of juice and how much were they drinking?

3.) What is defined as "high-fat" and what is defined as "low-fat"?

4.) We're any of the people on this raw high-fat diet using any herbs or super foods?

5.) What kind of coconut oil and how much were they eating?

6.) What were the physical activity levels of both groups?

You can read the paper here. There are more details in his other studies. You should read those, too, instead of LEF propaganda.

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Did you know that the rise in coconut oil's popularity coincided exactly with the fall of trans fat? Under pressure to reformulate their products, food manufacturers needed to find an alternative. At that time marketers quickly started promoting coconut oil as a health food. It's all nonsense.

You should read what Jeff Novick, MS, RD has to say about it.
[www.drmcdougall.com]

Regarding superfoods, the only thing they do is make their sellers rich. Some CR types take the latest supplement of the day for a while but they usually drop them when they realize nothing positive is to be gained.

I think you would be better served by figuring how to incorporate even more fresh fruits and vegetables into your diet than by giving these people your money.

"You can read the paper here. There are more details in his other studies."

They didn't really detail anything I asked.

"Regarding superfoods, the only thing they do is make their sellers rich."

Evidence?

"Some CR types take the latest supplement of the day for a while but they usually drop them when they realize nothing positive is to be gained."

What about all the people taking superfoods or supplements that report highly positive results?

"I think you would be better served by figuring how to incorporate even more fresh fruits and vegetables into your diet than by giving these people your money."

I eat plenty of fruits and vegetables.

European consensus
[www.eufic.org]

Australian:
[www.smh.com.au]

Profits:
[financialpress.com]

A lot of people claim to eat plenty of fruits and vegetables, but it's usually not several kg worth. I can't say I know what is optimum but from DAJ Jenkins' papers on very high fiber diets, it's probably > 5 kg/day (none of which is juiced or blended) for a healthy medium tall active male.

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> What about all the people taking superfoods or
> supplements that report highly positive results?
>

gee, i don't know, delusion? stimulation? justification for money spent?

etc

again, are blueberries a superfood?
list superfood and non superfood

how am i going to know what to eat unless you tell me?

"European consensus
[www.eufic.org]

Australian:
[www.smh.com.au]

Profits:
[financialpress.com]"

It's not a surprise that some companies are strictly in it for the profit, but that doesn't mean super foods don't exist. Personally, I don't rely on super foods for anything, they are merely an addition to my already highly nutritious diet. Vitamins and minerals are easy to obtain, I'm more interested in phytochemicals and enzymes.

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
I'm more
> interested in phytochemicals and enzymes.

ohhhhh! you mean those things that are Already available in fruits and veg?

>I'm more interested in phytochemicals

So why do you not tell us about the enormous plant-based salads you are eating daily or several times per day? The salad should be the main dish. There's the real magic.

I'm not going to tell you it is cheap to eat like this if you have to pay for your produce. It isn't. But it is super and it is food and it is tried and tested.

"gee, i don't know, delusion? stimulation? justification for money spent?"

So let me understand this, people who see no result are seeing no result because the product is useless, but those who see positive results are just imagining things? It couldn't possibly be that some people take lower-quality supplements and others take higher-quality ones?


"again, are blueberries a superfood?
list superfood and non superfood"

I would consider blueberries to be a super food, yes. Others I would give that label include medicinal mushrooms (chaga, reishi, lions mane, etc.), goji, turmeric, algae's, ginseng, raw cannabis leaf juice, etc.

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "gee, i don't know, delusion? stimulation?
> justification for money spent?"
>
> So let me understand this, people who see no
> result are seeing no result because the product is
> useless,

yes

but those who see positive results are
> just imagining things? It couldn't possibly be
> that some people take lower-quality supplements
> and others take higher-quality ones?

pay attention. not just imagining. stimulation as well.

>
>
> "again, are blueberries a superfood?
> list superfood and non superfood"
>
> I would consider blueberries to be a super food,
> yes. Others I would give that label include
> medicinal mushrooms (chaga, reishi, lions mane,
> etc.), goji, turmeric, algae's, ginseng, raw
> cannabis leaf juice, etc.

thank you. I am now a superfood freak.
should have told me a long time ago.

of course try as you might, the definition is not logical or consistent.

"pay attention. not just imagining. stimulation as well."

Stimulated from what? There is nothing stimulating in any of the foods I just mentioned.

concentrated foods are often mildly stimulating as well as powders/algaes/ginseng, imo. i know you don't feel that, that's fine.

"Ginseng, Before guarana became popular, ginseng was the most common herbal stimulant. Korean ginseng (Panax"


whole food for the win

Arugula wrote:
There is one focusing on raw foodists that is not free. PM me for details.

Tai:
I tried twice, but both times, your mailbox was full.

Arugula wrote:
IR resistance:

CR is better than Raw

Artery wall thickness:

CR is better than Raw

Tai:
Can you explain why you think this is so? Who has better calcium and mineral absorption, CR or Raw? What in the raw diet makes the blood sugar and IR resistance worse than CR? Regarding artery wall thickness, do you think Esselstyn's suggestions would improve that? Esselstyn recommends to cook the greens, like chard, but what about blending them raw and just drinking/chewing the liquid greens? What if someon juiced those greens that Esselstyn recommends istead? Romaine cannot substitute for the greens he is talking about like Chard and Kale.

Tai, so sorry, I did not realize my mailbox would be full with only 5 messages. I cleaned them out. I will need an email address to send you the paper.

The CR people had higher calcium intakes than raw.

If I had to put my finger on it I would chalk it up to a few things:

1. They are very conscientious about meeting or exceeding RDAs for everything
2. They weigh and measure to the gram.
3. Some of them do crazy things, like eat the peel but throw away the apple
4. They get many more calories from greens and other vegetables
5. They eat less fat. They tend to eat more vegetables. Many of them cook their vegetables. One couple refuses to eat anything raw because they are afraid of bacterial contamination.
6. They mind their o3/o6 ratios.
7. They read and discuss papers obsessively. They don't always agree with everything, or even each other, but they are constantly looking for better ways, ways to sneak in more improvement. They are relentless as a whole. One of them visited me several years back. We went to the market together and he would hold up two items and we would discuss the pros and cons of each. It was fun.

They are not necessarily 100% vegan but almost all of them are pretty close to it.

I like Esselstyn's suggesting of eating more greens.

I think cooked greens are a fine addition to a mostly raw diet. I don't think we lose anything but consuming modest quantities of lightly steamed greens. I think we gain!

Blending is to me something in between raw and cooked. You are not using heat but you are spinning the blade and breaking down the fibrous matrix. If it helps you to get more greens in, go for it. But don't forget that there are limits to what you can take in with the goosefoot and crucifer family.

I once tried to eat 12 oz of raw spinach (close relative of chard) in one sitting. It was a mistake I will never make again. On the other hand I have no problems with 18 oz of romaine or other lettuces, which are mild.

I am not a fan of juicing but if you are already getting 50 or more g of fiber from your food per day, and it helps you to get more greens in, it should not be a bad thing. I would not make it a major part of the diet, though.

fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> concentrated foods are often mildly stimulating as
> well as powders/algaes/ginseng, imo. i know you
> don't feel that, that's fine.
>
> "Ginseng, Before guarana became popular, ginseng
> was the most common herbal stimulant. Korean
> ginseng (Panax"
>
>
> whole food for the win

That's just your opinion, though, it's not validated by anything.

Ginseng is an adaptogen, not a stimulant, although it is popularly believed to be a stimulant. Maybe some varieties of ginseng have true stimulatory effects but I haven't seen any evidence of it.

fair enough, although the efficacy is debatable and mechanism undetermined from what i can tell.

we still get back to - why does one need things to mediate stress, for example.
eliminate the cause of stress. it's only because the cause is unknown (might be cayenne for example, or low calories, or dehyration, etc), that one reaches for herbal medicines imo.

but everyone is different in their philosophy. some wish to tinker and feel in control, taking an active role.

i've never had any issue that i felt needed something to modulate some aspect of my health .

Okay, so when it comes to the major disagreements, can we all at least understand the importance of maintaining healthy O3:O6 ratios and avoiding animal products? I will give you an example of what one day of eating may be like for myself (one day, fat percentages aren't always as high):

2 TBS AFA, 5 grams of chlorella and 5 grams of spirulina (~50 calories but tons of vitamins, minerals, and phytochemicals)

10 TBS of sprouted flax seeds (~550 calories, 23.5 grams of ALA compared to 6.1 grams of omega-6's, 28.1 grams of fiber, lots of minerals)

1/2 cup of sprouted sunflower seeds (~420 calories, 6.2 grams of fiber)

10 ounces of blueberries (~160 calories, 6.8 grams of fiber)

1 cup of fresh pomegranate seeds (~144 calories, 7 grams of fiber)

5 blood oranges (nutrient info unavailable)

2 grapefruit (~200 calories, 7.9 grams of fiber)

6 oz. of raspberries (~90 calories, 11.1 grams of fiber)

3 large red bell peppers (~152 calories, 10.7 grams of fiber)

1/2 cup hemp seeds (~420 calories, 22.1 grams of fiber)

Various other foods such as curcumin powder, garlic, royal jelly, green juices (mainly sunflower greens, wheatgrass, broccoli sprouts or dandelion greens), etc.


Total fiber = 99.9 grams (not including blood oranges)
O3:O6 ratio = 30.2:37.3 (very close to 1:1)
46% fat, 42% carb, 12% protein

Even with fat percentages considered, that's not the type of diet that's going to promote heart disease. Lots of phytochemicals, enzymes, and foods that are great for cardiovascular functioning.


We can have different opinions on coconut, though at the end of the day that doesn't really matter because I don't think coconut makes up a major part of anyone's diet here anyways. We're probably never going to agree on super foods, that's fine. I, for one, happen to think that you must source out very high-quality products and that the science/history behind many of these superfoods is valuable.

looks good to me. i think arugula is still convinced of the detriment of higher fat intake from the studies... but i don't know.

it's just a philosophical debate regarding all those "other things" and their value - no big deal.

interesting that i just put a couple samples of my typical days in cron and my fat intake ranged from 5% up to 25% - huge range - probably in the teens on average- but hard to say exactly unless i actually run the numbers for a while.