jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I could post literally - yes, literally - more
> than one thousand studies on the curative powers
> of a large variety of different superfoods and TCM
> herbs. But why would I? To try and convince some
> random, uneducated fool on a message board who's
> entrenched in close-minded, dogmatic beliefs that
> health is more than eating raw fruits and
> vegetables? Who cares what this guy thinks? As far
> as I'm concerned, he's a nobody. He's just some
> random person who eats fruits and vegetables and
> likes to pretend that he has any sort of
> respectable health knowledge.

instead of posting more studies, you could respond to the chinese doctor and his beliefs instead of attacking me. or you could respond to the studies that were already posted. but that would deny you the thrilling privilege of slamming me once again.

>I wouldn't be fussed by it Tai....the world is not ready for people like us yet. Even most alternative people into raw veganism can't handle what we have to say, and they certain;ly are not going to be able to handle our real thoughts we dare not mention publically. Yes, we must be careful what we say publically because people will always be happy to rub our faces in the dirt...it can attract negative energies towards us.

the problem is not people like myself presumably who can't handle what you say.

the problem is not being able to handle any critique or counter information.

nobody is rubbing any faces in dirt. I merely pointed out that those who are attached/identified with their careers or belief system especially when money is involved have difficulty remaining objective. this is nothing new, and it is not an insult, merely a wake up call. you either answer the call or you attack the messenger. I can see that everyone is more comfortable attacking the messenger.

fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >I wouldn't be fussed by it Tai....the world is
> not ready for people like us yet. Even most
> alternative people into raw veganism can't handle
> what we have to say, and they certain;ly are not
> going to be able to handle our real thoughts we
> dare not mention publically. Yes, we must be
> careful what we say publically because people will
> always be happy to rub our faces in the dirt...it
> can attract negative energies towards us.
>
> the problem is not people like myself presumably
> who can't handle what you say.
>
> the problem is not being able to handle any
> critique or counter information.
>
> nobody is rubbing any faces in dirt. I merely
> pointed out that those who are attached/identified
> with their careers or belief system especially
> when money is involved have difficulty remaining
> objective. this is nothing new, and it is not an
> insult, merely a wake up call. you either answer
> the call or you attack the messenger. I can see
> that everyone is more comfortable attacking the
> messenger.


I was going to write a response, but l shall not bother. I will just say that you are doing it again Fresh, you are engaging in monkey chatter. How many bananas have you eaten today, sir?


[www.youtube.com]

Fresh wrote:
you could respond to the chinese doctor and his beliefs instead of attacking me.

Tai:
Where does it even say that he is a Chinese doctor? The article calls him a scholar. These days, you can be a scholar of anything.
Also, I read the whole article and you are incredibly biased by not displaying the whole article.

You conveniently left out the most important part, which says that his supporters were a measly 10 k, while the opposition was 80% against him. You also keep asking for studies but you ignore the study in the very article you quoted which shows that TCM helped SARS patients recover

Back to the article of the link you posted:
"Zhang has reportedly succeeded in getting some 10,000 signatures to support his proposal thanks to the popular use of Internet in China today. Many of the supporters are medical workers. But opponents to Zhang's view also appeared to be in a great number. On the chat room of one of China's popular website, 80% of the views pasted were against him.

The critics pointed out that, as a scholar familiar with the study of history, Zhang should not be blind to the facts meriting TCM as exemplified in the therapy by acupuncture, which has been widely accepted and practiced all over the world and the highly efficient treatment of SARS with combined treatment by Chinese and Western medicine.

Compare the SARS death rates of Hong Kong (using exclusively Western therapy) and Guangzhou (using combined therapy): for Hong Kong the rate was 17% and for Guangzhou only 3.6%.

Thanks to the increasing influence of the blog-on-line, the intensifying dispute has quickly drawn the attention of officials with China's central government who have rushed to defend government policy.

Mao Qun'an, a spokesman for the Ministry of Health, told a press conference in Beijing last week that the campaign to discard Chinese medicine was wrong and stemmed from the advocator's sheer ignorance of Chinese history and total disregard for the important role played by traditional Chinese medicine in real life.

"Traditional Chinese medicine, being among the quintessence and treasures of Chinese culture, represents many of her salient features and superiority. It is the inseparable and indispensable constituent part of China's medical and health care system of today, just as it has contributed so much to the healthy development of our nation during China's long history," Mao said.

Fresh wrote:
you either answer the call or you attack the messenger. I can see that everyone is more comfortable attacking the messenger.

Tai:
In this one example above, you are totally ignoring the other side, even when the deadly SARS info is placed in front of you. You are the messenger of bias.

Tai Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fresh wrote:
> you could respond to the chinese doctor and his
> beliefs instead of attacking me.
>
> Tai:
> Where does it even say that he is a Chinese
> doctor? The article calls him a scholar. These
> days, you can be a scholar of anything.

you are correct, he is not a doctor - i misremembered and didn't verify.

it doesn't really matter.

for example, the best book i ever read, with the best information i have ever seen, on parenting, was written by someone who never had any children.


> Also, I read the whole article and you are
> incredibly biased by not displaying the whole
> article.
>

i am not biased because of that. i merely posted an excerpt, with a link.
no big deal.



> You conveniently left out the most important part,
> which says that his supporters were a measly 10 k,
> while the opposition was 80% against him.

that does not concern me at all. i do not think it wise to make decisions based on majority opinion. i was more concerned about the details of what he claimed, which was actually very interesting.

You
> also keep asking for studies but you ignore the
> study in the very article you quoted which shows
> that TCM helped SARS patients recover

The SARS link based on the two cities is an extremely weak association.
and that's not even getting into what sars is .



>
> Tai:
> In this one example above, you are totally
> ignoring the other side, even when the deadly SARS
> info is placed in front of you. You are the
> messenger of bias.


thanks for your view.
we can each share our view and learn from each other through that sharing.
it is difficult though to do when passion and emotion and attachment is involved.
i understand you believe and you care very much about people and helping them.
that is not in doubt.

it is not my intention to question that - as i said it was merely a counterpoint to the unquestioned acceptance of TCM, so i posted some information as balance, information that also concludes that TCM is not 2000 years old as is commonly stated either.

Fresh wrote:
counterpoint to the unquestioned acceptance of TCM,

Tai:
I haven't sugar coated TCM for anyone. I said that with the 5 senses, there are mistakes and side effects sometimes. I try to give an unbiased view. Even in the best hands, TCM is still only herbs, acupuncture and food and some other therapies. It doesn't replace western medicine. TCM had great, amazing potential, but too many things were lost and not handed down and some things were deliberately destroyed. The amazing physician and surgeon Hua Tuo showed the amazing potential of TCM, of where it could have gone (from 1,800 years ago)...but alas, he was executed and most of his material was lost.

Let me give you an example, Fresh. I took my dad to see my pulse teacher. he took my dad's pulse and said to him, "you have a hiatal hernia, a fatty liver and leaking heart valve." He also said my friend's pulse showed his heart was better than my dad's and my friend is 10 years older than my dad. So my dad went to his MD and the MD confirmed everything he said. Nothing was incorrect. My dad had recently seen his doctor, but his doctor never checked for any of those things, so without the pulse teacher, those problems would still be undiagnosed, unfortunately. But does my pulse teacher replace the MD? No, not at all. But it cuts down on some of the testing sometimes. LIke my mom, my teacher diagnosed my mother as having colon polyps. After my dad's doctor confirmed everything, my mom simply believed my teacher and decided she would do the program instead of having a colonoscopy. She did a rigorous program and later the pulse teacher found her colon was doing better, but still had a long way to go. He also diagnosed her as having gallstones, even though we never said a word to him about anything. We already knew she had that. The pulse doctor never dissuades anyone from seeing their doctor. He doesn't want the liability!!!!! He just has to be good at the pulse to be good with herbs...to be more precise. I have a long road to go in learning from him. Again, it doesn't replace western medicine and no one is asking for unquestioned acceptance. I will share another case. I try to take my tough cases to see my teacher. I was helping a lady who had liver cancer. She was not relying on me and was leaning on western medicine. We were friends and she was moving far away and she was fine taking herbs in the interim before she did anything. So, I took her to see him and he took her pulse and said that her more acute problem was a stomach ulcer and that her liver cancer was very mild. That floored me, because she never mentioned her stomach, but after he said it, she said, "oh yeah, I do." THe herbal formulas were very different based on her ulcer. As my teacher said, patients often lie or withhold information, so the diagnosis is important. Pulse diagnosis doesn't replace any standard medical test but it can be useful. I am not selling TCM to you fresh, just giving you some perspective because you quoted one of the harshest critics I have ever heard.

Fresh wrote:
information that also concludes that TCM is not 2000 years old as is commonly stated either.

Tai:
TCM started roughly around 2700 B.C. with Shen Nong, about 4,700 years ago. The Yellow Emperor's classic book (about acupuncture and Chinese medicine) was written roughly 300 BC (***). Hua Tuo was a very famous acupuncturist, herbalist and surgeon around 200 AD. Zhang Zhongjing was also a very famous herbalist at that same time (I have his 2 great herbal books). So, when people say it's 2,000 years old, it's just a very rough time table. It's actually much older. Many things were passed down orally, so Shen Nong's book was probably written later, but he collected data on hundreds of herbs and taught acupuncture.

I read Harriet Hall's propaganda piece that you are referring to, as if her piece actually refuted the age of TCM. She ignores one of the most famous acupuncture doctors, Hua Tuo.

Harriet Hall wrote this from the link that Fresh posted:
"The earliest Chinese medical texts, from the 3rd century BC, don’t mention it." ["it" meaning acupuncture or needling, which she lays out in the sentences before.]

Tai:
Perhaps she never opened the book. Perhaps she is lying. Perhaps she is putting her name on info that someone else gave her. THe book is about acupuncture theory and how to needle. I said last night that I refuse to refute that article point by point because it would take me all night.

*** (from wikipedia)"
The work is generally dated by scholars to between the late Warring States period (475-221 BC) and the early Han period (206 BCE–220 CE).[1]

Celestial Lancets (1980, by Joseph Needham and Lu Gwei-Djen) states that the consensus of scholarly opinion is that the Suwen belongs to the second century BCE, and cites evidence that the Suwen [of the Huang di Nei Jing] is earlier than the first of the pharmaceutical natural histories, the Shennong Bencao Jing (Divine Husbandman's Classic of the Materia Medica). So suggestive are parallels with third and fourth century BCE literature that doubt arises as to whether the Suwen might be better ascribed to the third century BCE, implying that certain portions may be of that date. The dominant role the theories of yin/yang and the five elements play in the physiology and pathology indicates that these medical theories are not older than about 320 BCE." end quote from wiki



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2015 07:08AM by Tai.

Tai Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
me give you an example, Fresh. I took my dad
> to see my pulse teacher. he took my dad's pulse


I am sure that you can understand that stories like that are difficult to believe without actual evidence.


> I took her to see him and he took her pulse and
> said that her more acute problem was a stomach
> ulcer and that her liver cancer was very mild.

I mean, actually, how specifically does it feel to the person to feel liver cancer in a pulse. i cannot imagine it.

>
> Tai:
> TCM started roughly around 2700 B.C. with Shen
> Nong, about 4,700 years ago.

i think the point was that the current TCM bears little or no resemblance to what it was originally, and has changed so much, often with little reasoning.

quote
as recently as less than 100 years ago, acupuncture involved the insertion of needles that were frequently red-hot and sometimes left in the body for days, as described by Scottish surgeon Dugald Christie, who served as a missionary doctor in northeastern China from 1883 to 1913:

Chinese doctors own that they know nothing at all of surgery. They cannot tie an artery, amputate a finger or perform the simplest operation. The only mode of treatment in vogue which might be called surgical is acupuncture, practised for all kinds of ailments. The needles are of nine forms, and are frequently used red-hot, and occasionally left in the body for days. Having no practical knowledge of anatomy, the practitioners often pass needles into large blood vessels and important organs, and immediate death has sometimes resulted. A little child was carried to the dispensary presenting a pitiable spectacle. The doctor had told the parents that there was an excess of fire in its body, to let out which he must use cold needles, so he had pierced the abdomen deeply in several places. The poor little sufferer died shortly afterwards. For cholera the needling is in the arms. For some children’s diseases, especially convulsions, the needles are inserted under the nails. For eye diseases they are often driven into the back between the shoulders to a depth of several inches. Patients have come to us with large surfaces on their backs sloughing by reason of excessive treatment of this kind with instruments none too clean.


finally the key point from my original reference is this:

Psychologists can list plenty of other things that could explain the apparent response to acupuncture.

Diverting attention from original symptoms to the sensation of needling, expectation,
suggestion,
mutual consensus and compliance demand,
causality error,
classic conditioning,
reciprocal conditioning,
operant conditioning,
operator conditioning,
reinforcement,
group consensus,
economic and emotional investment,
social and political disaffection,
social rewards for believing,
variable course of disease,
regression to the mean –

NOTE : the same applies to western medicine in many cases.


there are many ways human psychology can fool us into thinking ineffective treatments are effective. Then there’s the fact that all placebos are not equal – an elaborate system involving lying down, relaxing, and spending time with a caring authority can be expected to produce a much greater placebo effect than simply taking a sugar pill.

There are plenty of studies showing that acupuncture works for subjective symptoms like pain and nausea. But there are several things that throw serious doubt on their findings. The results are inconsistent, with some studies finding an effect and others not. The higher quality studies are less likely to find an effect. Most of the studies are done by believers in acupuncture. Many subjects would not volunteer for an acupuncture trial unless they had a bias towards believing it might work. The acupuncture studies coming from China and other oriental countries are all positive – but then almost everything coming out of China is positive. It’s not culturally acceptable to publish negative results – researchers would lose face and their jobs. In a recent survey, “No trial published in China or Russia/USSR found a test treatment to be ineffective.” We can’t reach a valid conclusion based on positive published studies if we don’t know about negative studies that never saw the light of day.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2015 07:38AM by fresh.

I tell you about herbal and acupuncture geniuses and you vomit out the worst stories of charlatans that I have never heard of. There have been medical doctors that have butchered patients, amputated the wrong limb and done sordid things. Yes, bad people are everywhere. There are bad apples in every profession, including in the water fasting profession. Assuming your stories are true and they may not be, but that doesn't negate TCM. It just describes some lunatics. Let's not get into how western medicine started with killing more than it helped, with blood letting and heavy metals. Why are you quoting something totally obscure from 1883? Yes, I agree that a crazy person can inflict grave harm with a long needle. There is no doubt. (Guess what? For people are totally needle phobic, there are other ways, like pellet/seed therapy for the ears and hands.)
>
Fresh wrote:

i think the point was that the current TCM bears little or no resemblance to what it was originally, and has changed so much, often with little reasoning.

Tai:
I gave you a very detailed answer to your obvious mistake and you don't own it. Harriet LIED, whether intentionally or unintentionally and you want to gloss over it. You waved her falsehood as fact and then just try to sweep it under the rug, instead of admitting that her whole premise is false; you try to create a haze.

P.S. Fresh, I am not trying to get clients from this board. I told everyone that I am not taking new patients. I haven't given anyone my phone number. I just have been sharing. Go ahead and do your smear campaign on acupuncture. I said in one post, I always encourage people to make sure to buy their raw food equipment before spending money on any kind of treatments. It takes a lot of money to buy a good juicer, blender, etc. I am all for people saving their money and not wasting it. Unless someone is badly in need, I encourage them to try to fix their problems through diet (and herbs if necessary). But sometimes it doesn't work out like that. When my mom was visiting me, she called me down one night. It looked like she was about to have a heart attack. I quickly gave her herbs and did acupuncture. In about an hour, her symptoms subsided. She got better minute by minute, which is why we didn't call 911. The next day, she went to a heart doctor and everything was okay. She continued taking the herbs and diet. Over the next week, she did all the tests and they were all normal. The doctor couldn't give an explanation but said she was lucky that I did what I did for her. The herbs were not enough. I tried the herbs first. They didn't work fast enough. I had to do acupuncture. I have worked on so many emergency cases, like gall stone attacks and really painful things. You make it sound like it's in the mind and ignore the studies that show it's not placebo.

Tai,

in my experience Fresh will always try any argument to rebutt a person's points no matter what, and he won't give up. Believe me, you will wear out before he does. Fresh is on a mission and he is not going to ease off until you call it quits. When he fires up like this he is not going to let go. It doesn't matter what you say Tai, he will find a counter argument to try and make your points sound "moot".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2015 10:51AM by The Sproutarian Man.

I have not followed this thread that much but I think acupuncture may require a lot training for one to be really effective and the chances for mistakes may be high. Isolating the proper nerve endings may not be easy.
We need people who are well trained in acupuncture



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2015 02:17PM by RawPracticalist.

Tai Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I tell you about herbal and acupuncture geniuses
> and you vomit out the worst stories of charlatans
> that I have never heard of. There have been
> medical doctors that have butchered patients,
> amputated the wrong limb and done sordid things.
> Yes, bad people are everywhere. There are bad
> apples in every profession, including in the water
> fasting profession. Assuming your stories are
> true and they may not be, but that doesn't negate
> TCM. It just describes some lunatics. Let's not
> get into how western medicine started with killing
> more than it helped, with blood letting and heavy
> metals. Why are you quoting something totally
> obscure from 1883? Yes, I agree that a crazy
> person can inflict grave harm with a long needle.
> There is no doubt. (Guess what? For people are
> totally needle phobic, there are other ways, like
> pellet/seed therapy for the ears and hands.)
> >

i have already said that i am not a fan of western medicine.

if you will calm down a bit ........ i posted that because it showed how the current acupuncture is quite different from what it used to be. i did not quote it to insult acupuncture. until you can detach yourself from acupuncture you will always feel insulted. you are not an acupuncturist, you are a human being. period.


> Fresh wrote:
>
> i think the point was that the current TCM bears
> little or no resemblance to what it was
> originally, and has changed so much, often with
> little reasoning.
>
> Tai:
> I gave you a very detailed answer to your obvious
> mistake and you don't own it. Harriet LIED,
> whether intentionally or unintentionally and you
> want to gloss over it. You waved her falsehood as
> fact and then just try to sweep it under the rug,
> instead of admitting that her whole premise is
> false; you try to create a haze.
>

i don't think so. see below.

> P.S. Fresh, I am not trying to get clients from
> this board. I told everyone that I am not taking
> new patients. I haven't given anyone my phone
> number. I just have been sharing. Go ahead and
> do your smear campaign on acupuncture. I said in
> one post, I always encourage people to make sure
> to buy their raw food equipment before spending
> money on any kind of treatments. It takes a lot of
> money to buy a good juicer, blender, etc. I am
> all for people saving their money and not wasting
> it. Unless someone is badly in need, I encourage
> them to try to fix their problems through diet
> (and herbs if necessary). But sometimes it
> doesn't work out like that. When my mom was
> visiting me, she called me down one night. It
> looked like she was about to have a heart attack.
> I quickly gave her herbs and did acupuncture. In
> about an hour, her symptoms subsided. She got
> better minute by minute, which is why we didn't
> call 911. The next day, she went to a heart
> doctor and everything was okay. She continued
> taking the herbs and diet. Over the next week,
> she did all the tests and they were all normal.
> The doctor couldn't give an explanation but said
> she was lucky that I did what I did for her. The
> herbs were not enough. I tried the herbs first.
> They didn't work fast enough. I had to do
> acupuncture. I have worked on so many emergency
> cases, like gall stone attacks and really painful
> things. You make it sound like it's in the mind
> and ignore the studies that show it's not placebo.

we are both entitled to our opinion and i thank you for yours.

i have asked you to understand that some of what you have claimed is very difficult to believe - i wonder if you can really see that.

i also asked you for the methodology of pulse diagnostics as you described and you did not tell me.

you can keep trying to make this adversarial if you wish, but that is not my intent. i am merely posting information, some of which i cannot personally verify, and i am also asking questions. you have provided counter information, some of which was excellent on the history, and some other information that i find frankly extremely hard to believe. i asked you for more detail and you have not provided any. so i am left with my non belief on those things.

i am going to ask you again , if you wish to respond, to respond in a non emotional, non defensive way, and stop attacking me for my sincere interest.

fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> jtprindl Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I could post literally - yes, literally - more
> > than one thousand studies on the curative
> powers
> > of a large variety of different superfoods and
> TCM
> > herbs. But why would I? To try and convince
> some
> > random, uneducated fool on a message board
> who's
> > entrenched in close-minded, dogmatic beliefs
> that
> > health is more than eating raw fruits and
> > vegetables? Who cares what this guy thinks? As
> far
> > as I'm concerned, he's a nobody. He's just some
> > random person who eats fruits and vegetables
> and
> > likes to pretend that he has any sort of
> > respectable health knowledge.
>

a note explaining how you again miss the point.

herbs and superfoods are going to have an effect on the human body, if the body is in a state in which it is conducive to it. of course this is so, since they contain many different chemicals that interact with and/or irritate the body.

the point is, these cures that you speak of, are there side effects that you fail to consider (yes), and is the action the best way to attain the result that you wish (usually no).

so you continually screeching that you can post thousands of studies is meaningless without context and evaluation of whether it is the best course of action. and your ridiculous statement of "how are you going to heal on fruits and vegetables" is the epitome of ignorance and an insult to nature and evolution.

The Sproutarian Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tai,
>
> in my experience Fresh will always try any
> argument to rebutt a person's points no matter
> what, and he won't give up. Believe me, you will
> wear out before he does. Fresh is on a mission and
> he is not going to ease off until you call it
> quits. When he fires up like this he is not going
> to let go. It doesn't matter what you say Tai, he
> will find a counter argument to try and make your
> points sound "moot".

you will find, if you wish to look, that i often concede on points as i have in this very thread and am happy to learn new things. but i am not prone to believe something just because so and so says so.

you will also find that you need to take responsibility for saying things that are false and unsupported , like "people throwing dirt on you" or whatever you said. it is false, and you will be called out on it.

"the point is, these cures that you speak of, are there side effects that you fail to consider"

Rarely.

"and is the action the best way to attain the result that you wish"

It's a highly effective way and far better than both pharmaceuticals and your delusional, foolish, completely uneducated stance of "just eat raw fruits and vegetables and all your problems will magically disappear". When you say things like this, you are just showing more and more why conversing with you a major waste of time. You're just some random, mentally unstable forum member with nothing more to offer than dogma and hostility - not worth a second more of my time.

"an insult to nature and evolution."

Not really considering super foods and herbs are apart of nature.

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "the point is, these cures that you speak of, are
> there side effects that you fail to consider"
>
> Rarely.
>

you are responsible for those times, with your recommendations to others.
and you therefore are practicing medicine on this board.

> "and is the action the best way to attain the
> result that you wish"
>
> It's a highly effective way and far better than
> both pharmaceuticals and your delusional, foolish,
> completely uneducated stance of "just eat raw
> fruits and vegetables and all your problems will
> magically disappear".

there are some other words you might consider trying to do without
delusional, foolish, uneducated.

you know, just talk like a normal sane person without emotional issues.

>When you say things like
> this,
"all your problems will magically disappear"

not that you will cease putting words in other people's mouths, but
....
there you go again.
but that's just your control issue raising its ugly head.


you are just showing more and more why
> conversing with you a major waste of time.

the only reason that you do is because you have control issues.
you cannot allow anyone to utter a thought in the blogosphere without you countering it (for egocentric reasons), under the guise of being helpful.


You're
> just some random, mentally unstable forum member
> with nothing more to offer than dogma and
> hostility - not worth a second more of my time.
>

there you go again.
unstable, dogma. is there no end to the adjectives in your quiver?
do you have a thesaurus by your side at all times?
hmm, what insult can i hurl today, let's see.....




> "an insult to nature and evolution."
>
> Not really considering super foods and herbs are
> apart of nature.

define super foods. really. are blueberries superfoods?
that's what i am told. salmon? almonds? my my the list is endless.

give us your definition. your list.

also herb. define and list that too.
but superfood is more interesting.

"and you therefore are practicing medicine on this board."

Not even close.

"there are some other words you might consider trying to do without
delusional, foolish, uneducated."

Nah, they fit perfectly. It's not broke so why fix it?

"not that you will cease putting words in other people's mouths, but"

You mean like how you put words in my mouth when you said "and your ridiculous statement of "how are you going to heal on fruits and vegetables""? Obviously you didn't say those exact words but it was your exact implication. Show me some cases where people healed their cancer on strictly raw fruits and vegetables.

"you cannot allow anyone to utter a thought in the blogosphere without you countering it (for egocentric reasons), under the guise of being helpful."

There's fresh pretending he understands the intentions of other people again even though he completely made up the scenario in his own head.

"also herb. define and list that too.
but superfood is more interesting."

Nah you can do your own research.

Fresh wrote:
i posted that because it showed how the current acupuncture is quite different from what it used to be. i did not quote it to insult acupuncture.

Tai:
How can you say what some crazy people did in 1883 is CURRENT? That is not current and whatever that man witnessed does not represent the wisdom of TCM ever at any point in history. There are so many dialects in China, so many different areas and unique groups of people. Before the traditional characters were offered in simplified form, about 30% of the people were illiterate. Did some illiterate people perform acupuncture, who never read an acupuncture book? Who knows, I wasn't there. But we know humans are capable of anything.

Current acupuncture is 2015, this generation. Current acupuncture is the latest studies showing that it's not placebo.

Fresh wrote:
until you can detach yourself from acupuncture you will always feel insulted

Tai:
You have no idea how detached I am from it, compared to any other acupuncturist I know. I am simply shocked at your cynicism. It's like any person on this board sharing with someone else the power of fresh raw green juice. Are they attached necessarily? Not necessarily...just sharing about a gift from nature. And acupuncture is a gift from nature, Fresh. I grow cacti with very long thin needles. I don't ever needle anyone with them, but I collect them sometimes for use for fine acupressure. I have needled myself with them, because I read that's how some Native Americans did it. I am not encouraging anyone to ever do acupuncture on themselves with any device: any kind of needle or thorn...that's illegal. I am just saying that nature provides the tools and doesn't require high level technology from humans.

Fresh wrote:
i have asked you to understand that some of what you have claimed is very difficult to believe - i wonder if you can really see that.

Tai:
Of course I can see that. If I knew there was this level of skepticism on the board, I would probably never have shared my acupuncturist story, because the basic assumption was that people sort of grasp acupuncture ideas or be open to them that they do work. Then the ESP is an entire other ball game which is completely individual. So, yes, I understand it's hard to believe and through this embarrassment, I finally understand what my very successful teacher was saying to stop talking about meridians and energy to the medical world.

Fresh wrote:
i also asked you for the methodology of pulse diagnostics as you described and you did not tell me.

Tai:
All the details are explained in the classes, from the width, the depth, the force, the location, the subtle feelings, the shapes, etc. It's an enormously complex subject but explained very specifically. It takes years of practice. It is like learning a new language. WIthout constant practice, one forgets. But the technique has been learned by many and works. My own teacher who treated 300k patients basically compared what the classic ancient and modern pulse books said to what he actually experienced and is teaching this pulse system. I met another pulse doctor like him in China and he just blew me away with what he could know (he also had seen 300k patients and was still in his 50s). It is astonishing. But part of it is just seeing tens of thousands of patients and getting really good at it. My current pulse teacher also uses ear and hand microcosm examination and other basic methods like blood pressure and palpation. The pulse system is so good, they are trying to create a machine to mimic it.

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> "not that you will cease putting words in other
> people's mouths, but"
>
> You mean like how you put words in my mouth when
> you said "and your ridiculous statement of "how
> are you going to heal on fruits and vegetables""?
> Obviously you didn't say those exact words but it
> was your exact implication.

that is what you said.
i put no words in your mouth.

in fact just below, you contradict what you just said above.

Show me some cases
> where people healed their cancer on strictly raw
> fruits and vegetables.
>

it's hard to say what exactly people do when they heal themselves but the below stories don't show any indications of specific "superfoods" or "medicinal herbs".

we would need to ask specific questions to be sure.

[wausaunews.wordpress.com]

and if you recall i showed you a study where cancer was cured while fasting.
the principle being that if the body can heal while fasting, why not while eating fruits and vegetables.

[www.rawfamily.com]

[www.thejc.com]


> Nah you can do your own research.

just as i thought.

you proclaim superfoods but you CAN'T even DEFINE what they are !!!!

lol

Tai Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fresh wrote:
> i posted that because it showed how the current
> acupuncture is quite different from what it used
> to be. i did not quote it to insult acupuncture.
>
> Tai:
> How can you say what some crazy people did in 1883
> is CURRENT?

i was not saying that was current.

that would be the middle years, showing exactly what i was trying to say, and that is how much it has changed over the years..


> I am
> simply shocked at your cynicism.

forget about my cynicism - all you would need to do to dispel it to answer my two questions.

It's like any
> person on this board sharing with someone else the
> power of fresh raw green juice. Are they attached
> necessarily? Not necessarily...just sharing about
> a gift from nature. And acupuncture is a gift from
> nature, Fresh. I grow cacti with very long thin
> needles. I don't ever needle anyone with them,
> but I collect them sometimes for use for fine
> acupressure. I have needled myself with them,
> because I read that's how some Native Americans
> did it. I am not encouraging anyone to ever do
> acupuncture on themselves with any device: any
> kind of needle or thorn...that's illegal. I am
> just saying that nature provides the tools and
> doesn't require high level technology from
> humans.
>

ok. thank you. i prefer NH.

> Fresh wrote:
> i have asked you to understand that some of what
> you have claimed is very difficult to believe - i
> wonder if you can really see that.
>
> Tai:
> Of course I can see that. If I knew there was
> this level of skepticism on the board

you can't see it. if you did, you wouldn't be so upset and calling it cynicism and skepticism.

>
> Tai:
> All the details are explained in the classes, from
> the width, the depth, the force, the location, the
> subtle feelings, the shapes, etc.

sorry it doesn't make sense to me to have that level of specifics to diagnose.

i will investigate.

do you know that humans tend to pay attention to what fits their beliefs and ignore what doesn't? so if a pulse reader was wrong, it would be rationalized and explained away in some fashion.

clearly you don't believe that is true, but you might allow me my own thoughts.

in fact let's take a poll to see who here believes in the efficacy of pulse reading, so you can not focus so much of your ire upon me.

"just as i thought."

Just as I imagined* - fixed it for you.

"and if you recall i showed you a study where cancer was cured while fasting.
the principle being that if the body can heal while fasting, why not while eating fruits and vegetables."

No, I do not recall - probably because it never happened. Your fantasy idea of claiming these super foods and herbs are not doing the healing and it's really just the body healing itself is simply that - a fantasy idea with zero evidence behind it. You are portraying your delusional opinion as fact when it's not even close. Superfoods and TCM herbs have over one thousand scientific studies proving their myriad of health benefits. The fact that the body can heal itself in no way means that foods are not healing - and you have no real evidence that fasting cures any chronic disease.

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "just as i thought."
>
> Just as I imagined* - fixed it for you.
>
> "and if you recall i showed you a study where
> cancer was cured while fasting.
> the principle being that if the body can heal
> while fasting, why not while eating fruits and
> vegetables."
>
> No, I do not recall - probably because it never
> happened.

search the archives.

Your fantasy idea of claiming these
> super foods and herbs are not doing the healing
> and it's really just the body healing itself is
> simply that - a fantasy idea with zero evidence
> behind it. You are portraying your delusional
> opinion as fact when it's not even close.
> Superfoods and TCM herbs have over one thousand
> scientific studies proving their myriad of health
> benefits. The fact that the body can heal itself
> in no way means that foods are not healing - and
> you have no real evidence that fasting cures any
> chronic disease.

you just admitted that the body can heal itself.

that is step one.

and so the 3 links that showed people curing themselves on fruits and veggies,
which is exactly what you were asking, with specific foods that they ate and everything,

is IGNORED by you ! or maybe you will come up with some rationalization at some point?

just anecdotal? unless you're posting it? then it's full of value?

and you can't even define SUPERFOOD!

I love it!!!!

keep it coming JTpubmedPRINDL, keep it coming.

Fresh wrote:
in fact let's take a poll to see who here believes in the efficacy of pulse reading, so you can not focus so much of your ire upon me.

Tai:
Why would anyone believe in it, if they never experienced it? THis isn't a fake religion. How many people ever got their pulse read by a pulse master on this board? My guess is only one, me. How many people even know a pulse master? My guess is only me. Of all the acupuncturists I know in my area, I know only two really good pulse readers. My teacher sees 4 patients an hour. He spends maybe 5 minutes on the pulse and diagnosis, then maybe 5 minutes with talking to the person and then 5 minutes writing the formula and communicating to the staff about the formula.

Why did I even share about pulse reading? Because of the propaganda that you shared in your links.
Most acupuncturists are not sufficiently trained in pulses to impress anyone. You actually don't need mastery of pulses to be a good acupuncturist to treat pain and many conditions.
Now there are more classes available to most acupuncturists to master the pulse, but it takes a lot of time and more people are going in that direction.
INside China, there are many pulse masters because of the sheer number they see and the age at which they begin to learn and practice medicine. People start later in life outside of China and see fewer patients in comparison.

hello Tai,

can you provide any information with respect to times when the pulse was read incorrectly?

do you have any statistics as to the accuracy?

thanks!

"search the archives."

It doesn't exist, why would I search the archives?

"you just admitted that the body can heal itself."

Never said it didn't.

"and so the 3 links that showed people curing themselves on fruits and veggies,
which is exactly what you were asking, with specific foods that they ate and everything,"

They didn't give an exact breakdown of everything they were doing - which likely included plenty of herbal, super food, and other remedies.

"keep it coming JTpubmedPRINDL, keep it coming."

I think I'll stop here and never respond to any of your posts ever again because like I said numerous times now, you are a waste of time. Doesn't matter how many times I prove you wrong on various topics, you'll conjure up a pathetic justification, or just ignore it, to make yourself feel better. I have no interest in engaging in conversation with stubborn, delusional individuals with severe cognitive imbalances. Your opinion literally means nothing to me and you certainly haven't earned any respect. Sorry, but I'll choose to not associate myself in any way with individuals who tell other people to kill themselves. Have fun thinking you're accomplishing something here.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2015 09:19PM by jtprindl.

Fresh wrote:

can you provide any information with respect to times when the pulse was read incorrectly?

Tai:
It's not a perfect science. There is nothing absolute about it. I will be completely honest. I go to my pulse teacher for his diagnostic skills but NOT for his nutritional mastery. Sometimes I don't like his herb choices. He is a brilliant herbalist and has made some of the most fantastic formulas that are used for the masses and brought to light many Taiwanese herbs most of us never heard of before. But once in a great while, his individual formulas that he writes have side effects, and that is what I am telling you happens. But when you are taking herb extracts at low doses, the side effects are nothing, because the dosage level is very small. (But he only gives out 100 g at a time, so the formula is easily modified, if a side effect should ever occur.) But when you are trying to cure something quickly and you need to make a fresh tea with a lot of herbs and drink a lot of tea, then mistakes are felt more strongly. I really only see cures in people who watch their diet plus take the herbs. Only if a problem is simple can it be fixed by herbs alone

I can't say that he makes a mistake with diagnosis. What he sometimes fails to do is to articulate in scientific terms what he feels. He said my mom had colon polyps and a breast cyst and kidney and gall stones, but when it came to her head, he didn't give it a specific name. He said it was like she had a knife in her head or something strange like that. No doctor ever diagnosed her for her frequent headaches. Without exactly saying what it was, he could still give her herbs for her head that were helpful. I have not seen him make a mistake, but sometimes he just can't express it with a western diagnosis term.
Pulse diagnosis doesn't take the place of MRIs or CAT scans or blood tests. IT's a quick look and cuts down on a lot of mistakes. Just as he saw 300k patients, there would have to be specialists that would widen the field to add more specific knowledge.

Tai wrote:
He said it was like she had a knife in her head or something strange like that.

Tai:
I realize this sounds confusing. HE said it because I was in the room and he knew I was his student. Describing it that way let me know there was blood stagnation. I should have mentioned that. He didn't really mean that literally. Stabbing knife pain is sometimes used to describe blood stagnation. Plus his first language is Chinese. SO, we knew there was some kind of blood stagnation. Again, the person sits down, the blood pressure is read, the pulse is read, and then he says these things before the patient utters a word. So he knew this before she said anything or revealed her headaches.

Tai,

thank you very much again.

it's clear that you are quite immersed in TCM and
it is a powerful thing for you.
we see things differently and that's ok too.

i looked into pulse diagnosis and it was interesting how complex it was - not that i found it convincing, but interesting nonetheless.

please don't concern yourself with anything I say -
I have been recently been informed that I am
"stubborn"
"delusional"
"cognitive imbalance"
and that's just in this one thread.
there are many more problems that I apparently have.

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "search the archives."
>
> It doesn't exist, why would I search the
> archives?
>

yeah, ok.

> "you just admitted that the body can heal
> itself."
>
> Never said it didn't.


implied as much

>
> "and so the 3 links that showed people curing
> themselves on fruits and veggies,
> which is exactly what you were asking, with
> specific foods that they ate and everything,"
>
> They didn't give an exact breakdown of everything
> they were doing - which likely included plenty of
> herbal, super food, and other remedies.

so if you receive evidence that counters your position,
(they did actually list exactly what they ate )
you just make stuff up?



>
> "keep it coming JTpubmedPRINDL, keep it coming."
>
> I think I'll stop here and never respond to any of
> your posts ever again because like I said numerous
> times now, you are a waste of time. Doesn't matter
> how many times I prove you wrong on various
> topics,

if proving me wrong is that much of a high priority for you,
i would think you have some skewed priorities.


you'll conjure up a pathetic
> justification, or just ignore it, to make yourself
> feel better. I have no interest in engaging in
> conversation with stubborn, delusional individuals
> with severe cognitive imbalances. Your opinion
> literally means nothing to me and you certainly
> haven't earned any respect.


on the other hand, i have learned several things from you, as i have from everyone here, and i am grateful for it.



Sorry, but I'll choose
> to not associate myself in any way with
> individuals who tell other people to kill
> themselves. Have fun thinking you're accomplishing
> something here.

i debate facts and ideas.

when your primary goal is to be an enemy to someone
from a personality perspective,
you will need to distort reality and ignore facts like
"storm said he wanted to kill himself multiple times"
and claim that this is irrelevant.
which is a rather absurd retort that only serves
to continue to allow storm to have no integrity with his words
and remove any responsibility.


now back to superfoods.

one definition is that it is just a marketing term.

i suspect that is not one you would agree with.

here is another.
By definition they are calorie sparse and nutrient dense meaning they pack a lot of punch for their weight as far as goodness goes. They are superior sources of anti-oxidants and essential nutrients

i am still at a loss as to where one would draw a line at what is a superfood and what is not.

> They didn't give an exact breakdown of everything
> they were doing - which likely included plenty of
> herbal, super food, and other remedies.

now i am not partial to specific foods and cures, but....

Here, above, you continue to insist by implication that there is no value in a "simple" fruit and vegetable diet.

and that there must be herbal, superfood or "remedy", whatever that is

below is the first article that came up, not cherry picked:

cancer curing foods:
"cancer fighting phytonutrients"

[www.health.com]


broccoli, berries, tomatoes, walnuts


my question: is broccoli a superfood or herb?
are berries superfood or herb?
tomatoes?
walnuts?

or would you instead claim that they have no effect on cancer?
which is it?

your insistence upon superfoods/herbs/pubmed studies
seems rather bizarre in this light.

of course this post is not for you, it is for other people.

sincerely,

your delusional little buddy

Fresh wrote:
please don't concern yourself with anything I say -

Tai
Well, Fresh, it looks like we made peace. Good, because I thought we were forum friends.