Today I watched this video by Andrew Perlot:

[www.youtube.com]

He presents some studies saying that fermented veggies are related to stomach cancer. I've been into fermented veggies myself and enjoying my homemade raw salt-free sauerkraut.

What do you think?

Some say fermented veggies are rotted and dangerous, others say they are beneficial. I know John Kohler makes his own raw sauerkraut as well.

Also read the comments on this video, Victor Van Rambutan says some interesting things there.

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Raw vegan for life. Vegan for the animals. Raw for my health.

Yes, I think there is some correlation. But I think you can still enjoy your fermented foods if a. you have them only occasionally and b. the bulk of your calories are from fresh, unprocessed foods.

I doubt those Asian people who got cancers were doing high raw with the rest of their calories.

24 or so refs showing raw f+v protective for stomach cancer are below, just up until 2007 or so when I stopped looking for them. I don't think fermented foods now and then will be harmful if you eat lots of raw f+v

Jedrychowski W.,Contribution of Epidemiology in Poland for better understanding of the natural history of diseases in gastrointestinal tract, J Physiol Pharmacol. 2003 Dec;54 Suppl 3:245-61.PMID: 15075477

Hoshiyama Y, Sasaba T., A case-control study of stomach cancer and its relation to diet, cigarettes, and alcohol consumption in Saitama Prefecture, Japan, Cancer Causes Control. 1992 Sep;3(5):441-8, PMID: 1525325

Lee SA, Kang D, Shim KN, Choe JW, Hong WS, Choi H., Effect of diet and Helicobacter pylori infection to the risk of early gastric cancer.,J Epidemiol. 2003 May;13(3):162-8.,PMID: 12749604

Takezaki T, Gao CM, Wu JZ, Ding JH, Liu YT, Zhang Y, Li SP, Su P, Liu TK, Tajima K., Dietary protective and risk factors for esophageal and stomach cancers in a low-epidemic area for stomach cancer in Jiangsu Province, China: comparison with those in a high-epidemic area., Jpn J Cancer Res. 2001 Nov;92(11):1157-65., PMID: 11714439

Huang XE, Tajima K, Hamajima N, Kodera Y, Yamamura Y, Xiang J, Tominaga S,Tokudome S.,Effects of dietary, drinking, and smoking habits on the prognosis of gastric cancer.,Nutr Cancer. 2000;38(1):30-6,PMID: 11341041


Fedriga R, Calistri D, Nanni O, Cortesi L, Saragoni L, Amadori D, Relation between food habits and p53 mutational spectrum in gastric cancer patients, Int J Oncol. 2000 Jul;17(1):127-33,PMID: 10853029

Palli D., Epidemiology of gastric cancer: an evaluation of available evidence.,J Gastroenterol. 2000;35 Suppl 12:84-9, PMID: 10779225

Huang XE, Tajima K, Hamajima N, Xiang J, Inoue M, Hirose K, Tominaga S, Takezaki T, Kuroishi T, Tokudome S.,Comparison of lifestyle and risk factors among Japanese with and without gastric cancer family history, Int J Cancer. 2000 May 1;86(3):421-4,PMID: 10760832

Franceschi S, Favero A,The role of energy and fat in cancers of the breast and colon-rectum in a southern European population.,Ann Oncol. 1999;10 Suppl 6:61-3,PMID: 10676554

Takezaki T, Gao CM, Ding JH, Liu TK, Li MS, Tajima K.,Comparative study of lifestyles of residents in high and low risk areas for gastric cancer in Jiangsu Province, China; with special reference to allium vegetables, J Epidemiol. 1999 Nov;9(5):297-305,PMID: 10616262

Galanis DJ, Kolonel LN, Lee J, Nomura A., Intakes of selected foods and beverages and the incidence of gastric cancer among the Japanese residents of Hawaii: a prospective study,Int J Epidemiol. 1998 Apr;27(2):173-80,PMID: 9602395

Franceschi S, Parpinel M, La Vecchia C, Favero A, Talamini R, Negri E.,Role of different types of vegetables and fruit in the prevention of cancer of the colon, rectum, and breast,Epidemiology. 1998 May;9(3):338-41,PMID: 9583427

Palli D, Caporaso NE, Shiao YH, Saieva C, Amorosi A, Masala G, Rice JM, Fraumeni JF Jr., Diet, Helicobacter pylori, and p53 mutations in gastric cancer: a molecular epidemiology study in Ital,Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev. 1997 Dec;6(12):1065-9, PMID: 9419404

Palli D., Epidemiology of gastric cancer, Ann Ist Super Sanita. 1996;32(1):85-99, PMID: 8967726

Cornee J, Pobel D, Riboli E, Guyader M, Hemon B, A case-control study of gastric cancer and nutritional factors in Marseille, France, Eur J Epidemiol. 1995 Feb;11(1):55-65, PMID: 7489774

Hoshiyama Y, Sasaba T, A case-control study of stomach cancer and its relation to diet, cigarettes, and alcohol consumption in Saitama Prefecture, Japan,Cancer Causes Control. 1992 Sep;3(5):441-8,PMID: 1525325

Palli D, Bianchi S, Decarli A, Cipriani F, Avellini C, Cocco P, Falcini F, Puntoni R, Russo A, Vindigni C, et al., A case-control study of cancers of the gastric cardia in Italy, Br J Cancer. 1992 Feb;65(2):263-6, PMID: 1739627

Cipriani F, Buiatti E, Palli D., Gastric cancer in Italy, Ital J Gastroenterol. 1991 Sep-Oct;23(7):429-35,PMID: 1742542

Boeing H, Frentzel-Beyme R, Berger M, Berndt V, Gores W, Korner M, Lohmeier R, Menarcher A, Mannl HF, Meinhardt M, et al., Case-control study on stomach cancer in Germany, Int J Cancer. 1991 Apr 1;47(6):858-64,PMID: 2010228.

Boeing H., Epidemiological research in stomach cancer: progress over the last ten years,J Cancer Res Clin Oncol. 1991;117(2):133-43, PMID: 2036128

Moller H, Landt J, Pedersen E, Jensen P, Autrup H, Jensen OM., Urinary excretion of N-nitrosoproline in relation to consumption of raw and cooked vegetables in a Danish rural population,IARC Sci Publ. 1991;(105):168-71,PMID: 1855843

Kato I, Tominaga S, Ito Y, Kobayashi S, Yoshii Y, Matsuura A, Kameya A, Kano T., A comparative case-control analysis of stomach cancer and atrophic gastritis,Cancer Res. 1990 Oct 15;50(20):6559-64, PMID: 2208116

Graham S, Haughey B, Marshall J, Brasure J, Zielezny M, Freudenheim J, West D, Nolan J, Wilkinson G., Diet in the epidemiology of gastric cancer, Nutr Cancer. 1990;13(1-2):19-34, PMID: 2300492

Buiatti E, Palli D, Decarli A, Amadori D, Avellini C, Bianchi S, Biserni R, Cipriani F, Cocco P, Giacosa A, et al., A case-control study of gastric cancer and diet in Italy,Int J Cancer. 1989 Oct 15;44(4):611-6,PMID: 2793233

I watched the video. It seems Andrew wasn't sure if there would be a risk, if no salt was added to the sauerkraut. I have made sauerkraut a lot without any salt. I have a German crock, which I like to use also to make rejuvelac in.

After making sauerkraut both with salt and without, my favorite is to use miso and no other salt, and only to let the sauerkraut/kimchee go a few days--any longer than that and it gets mushy.

I think salt allows the sauerkraut to be preserved, which could be important for people with long winters. But for people, like me with access to fresh greens year round, there is no need to add so much salt. I like the miso because it hastens the sofening process, because it has a natural probiotic and the salt inside encourages the water to come out of the veggies. Technically miso is not a raw product, but it has living probiotics in it. I know many raw foodists use miso made from chickpea and not soy.

Thank you so much, Arugula and Tai, for sharing your opinions.

I've only made salt-free raw sauerkraut, as I eat a salt-free diet, and I've been very happy with the way it turned out. I like it in the stage when it's sour and a bit tangy, but still crunchy. I believe it helped me with the good bacteria and with digestion, though I sometimes experimented some cramps after eating it (I must admit I did eat quite a lot of it in one sitting, it was so good). But I'll be making sauerkraut only in winter (that is if I decide to make it again, if I'm craving it), so that's only 3 months/year.

I wonder if the same concern applies for fermented sprouts (or other fermented plant-based foods). Andrew Perlot has an article on the dangers of Kombucha:

[www.raw-food-health.net]

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Raw vegan for life. Vegan for the animals. Raw for my health.

All I know is that once I went on the Conductivity Diet I can no longer stand anything fermented although I could before and made a lot of fermented food which I ate daily before I went raw.

I have no idea what he really knows but Tavis says his specialty is parasites and that parasites love fermented food so he does not recommend eating them.

Ann Wigmore doesnt agree, She is rolling in her grave.

Robert O Young says they are bad too.

But you know what I crave them after I get xrays at the dentist. Twice it happened.

I think it was invented so the poor starving people of russia would have veggies in the winter.

I am watching this video now

Here I am making kraut:


He is a little Cute, what do you think SUez, would you date him?

I cannot look at any raw man at the moment. I get too excited. He is making a video on youtube, of answering an email.

He is sitting at the desk.

The result of him eating kraut once is that his tummy ached, after his first time eating it. So that means its bad.

Now he is talking about Hemlock. I made essential oils out of hemlock once, I didnt know it was poisonous.

Now he is talking abut science. Studies. Great, get to his analysis...and statistics and correlations...his well rounded view, high quality one, 60 studies he read, and he found one linking pickled foods to cancer...

Were they raw?

NOOO

He says its concentrated in Eastern asia.

SO because they eat lots of fermented foods, that means fermented foods is bad

Hmm



" NOOOOOOOOOOO NOOOOOOOO"






Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2015 06:13AM by coconutcream.

@coconutcream did you see the one in which he said there are guys i Australia OD'n on bananas?

Wonderful post as always, Coconutcream.

I experienced stomach pain after sauerkraut, but I ate too much then, so that's the reason. If I eat moderate amounts, I'm fine. But this goes for any fruit/veg. It's all about knowing when to stop.

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Raw vegan for life. Vegan for the animals. Raw for my health.

I searched some more on the internet and found these links:

[www.slate.com]

[www.paleohacks.com]

[www.paleohacks.com]

[www.idigmygarden.com]

They do have a point.

And in this article, after stating all the benefits of sauerkraut, there's a warning about the risk of cancer:

[www.herbs2000.com]

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Raw vegan for life. Vegan for the animals. Raw for my health.

Dont they serve sauerkraut all over in raw healing retreats as a daily anti cancer food staple?





Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/20/2015 08:20AM by coconutcream.

How do they now its the saurcraut causing it?

Cassar would be screwed then, and the fact he get's so much Sun/Light, he's a dead man

Coconutcream, I love that pic

Yes, it's kinda mixed up. First they say sauerkraut is an anti-cancer superfood, then they warn about sauerkraut causing cancer.

They associate it mostly with the salt used to produce the brine, and with the other spices, they mention the chilli used for the kimchi. Possibly, the persons getting cancer were not raw vegan. Also, they maybe ate the sauerkraut along with oily, fried foods. And they blame the vinegar used for pickled veggies (and the acetic acid in the vinegar).

Anyway, I decided to take a break from making sauerkraut until next winter, and focus more on the fresh veggies, instead of the fermented ones. And to search more on this subject.

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Raw vegan for life. Vegan for the animals. Raw for my health.

I have some info on ferments and cancer in my ferment file somewhere, and it was discussed here in relation to certain ferments, but the file is far too large to be looking it up (over 1,000 pages). I think it was related to soy, and there was a particular explanation as to why it could be cancer causing. Pity l can't remember.

Yes, salt does slow the fermentation process down and stabilise it so things don't rot.

Ela2013 Wrote:
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> I wonder if the same concern applies for fermented
> sprouts


No, l did a good check of the data a few years ago....read the fermentation literature for 12 months straight.

www.thesproutarian.com

To do a really highly quality nutrition packed sauerkraut it is highly advised to add the following:

- quinoa sprouts
- sunflower seed sprouts


Viktoras Kilvinskas looks great in this video, like a boy again. That's what faithful committment to the living foods lifestyle does. 75 going on 20.


Viktoras Kulvinskas: How to make raw sauerkraut
[www.youtube.com]

www.thesproutarian.com

Thank you, The Sproutarian Man, for taking the time to post here, I really apreciate it, you always have such interesting things to share

Yes, that file on fermenting would be great to read. I keep searching myself to find out more about this subject. I'm glad that fermented sprouts present no risk.

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Raw vegan for life. Vegan for the animals. Raw for my health.

sauerkraut is lactic acid and bacteria, right?

Ela2013 Wrote:
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> Thank you, The Sproutarian Man, for taking the
> time to post here, I really apreciate it, you
> always have such interesting things to share


I now recall that some Japanese men suffered stomach cancer who ate fermented soy beans for some reason l can't remember. Never mind, on a high or all raw vegan diet with lots of sprouts one doesn't need to worry about such things imo. Store bought kombucha has also had problems in regards to poisening.


>
> Yes, that file on fermenting would be great to
> read. I keep searching myself to find out more
> about this subject. I'm glad that fermented
> sprouts present no risk.
>


This thread has now inspired me to do a special section on femrnting on my website. It won't be an essay, but l will post links to the science on fermenting so it can be referred to as a general info guide.

Btw, fermenting sprouted grains can increase zinc bioavailability by up to 600% and iron up to 1,000% or slightly more. But the problem with many of these fermentation studies on improving bioavailability is that they are all short term studies and don't take into account the bodies natural ability to overcome anti nutrients over the long term, + they don't measure the effect of having high bacteria levels to naturally break anti nutrients down. Anti nutrients are very beneficial, but we need to be able to manage them effectively. Animal studies are also interesting. More will be spoken about these things in time.

And yes, fermented foods can cause stomach pain under certain conditions. Reading about eating too much ferment causing stomach pain was very very interesting. I ate a highly acid 100% fermented diet for 4 months straight (all algaes, seaweeds and sprouts were fermented,and green juices also had fermented rejuvalic in them)...it greatly improved my health to another level and l thrived on it. However, if we undergo great detox the ferments can also hurt our stomach.





fresh Wrote:
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> sauerkraut is lactic acid and bacteria, right?

Oh yes. Many say it is a waste product, but there are good benefits to these things. I won't talk about fermenting too much at the moment until l refresh my memory by reading my notes.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2015 10:29PM by The Sproutarian Man.

I'll definitely be very interested to read the section about fermented foods on your website once it's ready, I find fermentation to be very interesting to search and study, I find the whole transformation fascinating.

Here are some links I found useful:

[www.foodrenegade.com] (there are a lot of useful comments as well)

Here is a link about making kombucha, and it has a lot of useful comments as well: [www.foodrenegade.com]

This website too: [betterraw.com]

[realfoodoutlaws.com]

This one uses honey, but maybe it can be replaced with another sweetener: [www.rebeccawood.com]

There is this Youtube channel with lots of fermented veggies videos (especially those down the page, among her first videos), I really enjoyed Lauren's videos, she is a lot into fermentation and has good knowledge: [www.youtube.com]

[sweethealthyliving.com]

This is a very complete article about sauerkraut, and down the page, after the comments, there are sections about sauerkraut: [www.nourishingtreasures.com]

This is a very complete website about sauerkraut: [www.wildfermentation.com]

About salt-free sauerkraut: [bodyecology.com]

Down this page, about no salt sauerkraut: [www.examiner.com]

The Wild Fermentation forum: [www.wildfermentation.com]...

John Kohler also has a video on raw sauerkraut:

[www.youtube.com]

He also has a video on Kombucha:

[www.youtube.com]

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Raw vegan for life. Vegan for the animals. Raw for my health.

I found here on this site some great info about fermented foods. Sauerkraut is considered a "living food" only because of the good bacteria living on a dead base, the cabbage. Once the good bacteria eventually dies off, the fermented cabbage is no longer a living food. Pickled carrots aren't considered living food because they won't sprout if planted in the ground. Also, fermented food is considered acid-forming and thus avoided by yogis.

[www.rawfoods.com]

[www.rawfoods.com]

I can't believe I haven't checked the article section on this website before, and also the related links and resources. This website is a real treasure.

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Raw vegan for life. Vegan for the animals. Raw for my health.

Ela2013 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I found here on this site some great info about
> fermented foods. Sauerkraut is considered a
> "living food" only because of the good bacteria
> living on a dead base, the cabbage. Once the good
> bacteria eventually dies off, the fermented
> cabbage is no longer a living food. Pickled
> carrots aren't considered living food because they
> won't sprout if planted in the ground. Also,
> fermented food is considered acid-forming and thus
> avoided by yogis.
>
> [www.rawfoods.com]
>
> [www.rawfoods.com]
>
>
> I can't believe I haven't checked the article
> section on this website before, and also the
> related links and resources. This website is a
> real treasure.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ela. I have said several times on this site that the only living thing in fermented foods is the bacteria but I don't think anyone paid any attention. I'm glad you posted this. Perhaps it will allow more people to catch on.

Ok Suez I get it. Its true it is dead. But its not cooked its just rotten. But how come it is preserved? Good questions.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2015 04:13PM by coconutcream.

Thank you, SueZ, for your reply, indeed it's true, I'm sorry I haven't read when you said this same thing, but I'm glad you share this opinion. As much as I'm still tempted to make sauerkraut again and as much as I do miss the taste, I think it's a good idea to stich with fresh fruits and veggies.

Coconutcream, that's a very good question. I guess it's kept alive by those good bacteria, just like a person in coma is kept alive by the machines.

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Raw vegan for life. Vegan for the animals. Raw for my health.

>fermented food is considered acid-forming and thus avoided by yogis.
Even if fermented food when properly done can improve digestive health?
That should make the system less acidic

Yes, I thought about that too, that's one of the reasons I started making my own sauerkraut, I saw some videos saying fermented veggies are great for digestion.

I guess there are/will always be different opinions on this subject of fermented veggies...

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Raw vegan for life. Vegan for the animals. Raw for my health.

One can clean a clogged sewage system at once.
Maybe the cancer comes in when the cleansing is too drastic for a clogged digestive system.