Dear Suncloud,
all your points about veganism in this thread were excellent. I love mercy for animals, too. Every time I play a video from them on youtube to a meat eater, they usually can't finish watching a second video.

Banana who wrote:
Please respond if you are a vegan for a long time and don't supplement with B-12. I don't want to take supplements.

Tai:
I have never been tested for b-12, but I have taken it off and on over the years.

Lou Corona said he participated in a test once. A doctor was measuring vegans for their B-12 status. Lou was one of the few vegans that were normal and Lou had not supplemented with B-12. One day, I will get the particulars of the story. I think what set Lou apart was his liberal use of nut and seed yogurts using a lactobacillus strain, which might have produced b-12. Also, he was unique in that he did major cleansings early on and got his colon very clean and practiced deep breathing and loving kindness towards everyone.

Also, TSM shared a great article that showed some Koreans having good B-12 status through their liberal intake of fermented soy products that had fermented for like 9 months and were rich in B-12. Those products were homemade.

Hello Tai,

I appreciate your comments.

There is a "gold standard" for determining whether or not any item can be considered a reliable source of B12 in the diet:

If the item is capable of reversing pernicious anemia (anemia due to B12 deficiency) in an individual with healthy B12 absorption capacity, it can be considered a reliable source.

Although there may be anecdotal reports of effective B12 sources, unless the item has met the above "gold standard", it cannot be considered a reliable source. Hopefully further studies will be forthcoming, if warranted. Until then, although discussion is always helpful, the safest advice for vegans will be to include a B12 supplement.

THANKS for showing those Mercy For Animals videos to your clients!!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2015 09:01PM by suncloud.

John Rose Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Raw Vegan Diet is our Ideal Diet in an Ideal
> World. Unfortunately, we have DAMAGED ourselves
> and the Environment and now, we have another Group
> of Needs we must Satisfy. I have gone over this
> many times in the past, so if anyone has any
> questions, do a search on this website and you
> shouldn't have any trouble finding some of those
> old posts.


Sorry but the search function sucks.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2015 10:22PM by banana who.

Panchito Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> banana who Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > That seems unnatural to me.
>
> Why cherry pick whats natural? Look to see if
> other animals take showers every day. That looks
> unnatural to me. I remember reading about a vegan
> Iranian village that did not take b12 but they did
> not took showers either.

Because meat-eaters never talk about supplementing with B12 (even though they have a fair number of deficiency cases). So it seems to be a particular obsession with vegans and I cannot go for the notion that an adequate diet needs us to pop pills or wear patches. Especially since isolating vitamins seems risky at best!I just read a post where folic acid supplement supposedly increased cancer risk.

suncloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> banana who Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I don't buy that stuff about the soil. B-12 is
> > needed in very small amounts. From what I
> > understand, it is produced in the gut so one's
> gut
> > needs to be on point. I have also heard that
> > fermented veggies can help with all this. I
> don't
> > want to wear a patch or pop a pill. That seems
> > unnatural to me.
>
> AHEM! "Unnatural"?
>
> The fact is, we can CHOOSE between:
>
> (1) What we've been taught is "natural".
>
> and
>
> (2) A personal code of ethics.
>
> Most of us were TAUGHT that it's "natural" to
> drink milk from another species' breasts, although
> no other mature animal in the wild does this.
> Additionally, milking another species requires
> separating the young from their mothers. Many of
> us either don't know of this requirement, or we
> don't care. Can this behavior be defined as
> "natural"? Only human non-vegans do this. And
> many human cultures around the world have
> traditionally rejected this.
>
> Our concept of "natural" is influenced by how we
> were raised, what we want to hear at the time, and
> who we listen to.
>
> SO, when it comes to making a choice between a
> supplement and an animal source of B12:
>
> If taking a B12 supplement bothers us more than
> separating babies from their mothers or taking
> honey away from bees (and replacing it with
> sugar), we will find it "natural" to choose the
> animal product over the supplement.
>
> On the other hand, if exploiting animals to the
> point of inflicting physical and emotional harm
> bothers us more than taking a supplement, we will
> find it absolutely "natural" to choose the
> supplement.
>
> __________________________________________________
> ___________________
>
> Please read Diet for a New America, by John
> Robbins. If you've already read the book, and
> your choices were not affected, then OK. Maybe
> next year, or the year after, or sometime later
> you will change your mind. For the animals' sake,
> I'm hopeful. For yours, you must do what you
> believe.
>
> __________________________________________________
> ___________________
>
> Banana who, you are correct that B12 is needed in
> only very small amounts and also that it's
> produced in the human gut.
>
> Production is not the issue. It's where the B12
> is produced, and it's produced past the point in
> the gut where it can meet up with "intrinsic
> factor". Intrinsic factor is required for
> absorption.
>
> Some people have compromised guts that can't
> absorb B12, even when it's eaten (This includes
> B12 from both animal products and supplements).
> If a person is in that category, a supplement
> won't help them. They require B12 shots or a
> patch. Most of these people are elderly. But for
> the vast majority of us, eating foods containing
> B12 or taking a supplement is sufficient.
>
> Humans do recycle most of what we've stored up,
> but this supply gradually dwindles, because we
> don't recycle all of it. That's why it usually
> takes a pretty long time to become deficient.
>
> (It took me 15 years, but I was also working with
> a lot of chicken manures.)
>
> __________________________________________________
> _______________
>
> A word about methylcobalamin: it is more easily
> assimilated than cyanocobalamin. However, it's
> also less stable, which is why the recommended
> daily dose is much higher.

Wow, that was a pretty awesome, informative post, Suncloud! Thanks! I like the part about it taking possibly YEARS to deplete my B12 supply because I consider what I am about to embark upon as an experiment. In addition to eating animal products (most organic, of course and I have been buying "certified humane" eggs recently after discovering that "free range" was a bee ess term of sorts), I have had some soymilk that is fortified with B12. I don't like to buy it this way because it also has crushed rock (calcium carbonate) in it, but again, I have built up a surplus of B-12.

I never said I would eat animal products instead. I might just "risk" the deficiency. What I don't like to do is take supplements, as I have stated. It doesn't resonate with me. I've done it in the past and don't like it. Besides, isolating vitamins and minerals seems counterintuitive from a holistic, synergistic perspective.

I want to thank everyone for their input and not accusing me of trolling (LOL--did I read every response? ). I am sincere in my questions and I do believe that veganism is a clean way of eating and living.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2015 10:33PM by banana who.

Banana Who,

Best wishes as you embark on your vegan experiment!

I would just caution that people have different experiences with B12, and some become deficient within a relatively short period of time. Also, sometimes there are warning symptoms, and sometimes not.

On the other hand, my husband has been vegan for as long as me (since 1986), and he never takes a B12 supplement. He DOES include the Red Star B12-fortified nutritional yeast just about everyday. He puts it on popcorn, in soup, sprinkled over toast with avocado, fried tofu, etc. We do a special order for it from our local health food store, because the nutritional yeast available in the bin is not fortified. Red Star sells both.

Anyway, that's another vegan option if you'd rather not have the fortified soy milk. The yeast is not raw, but whatever! I think you're making a great move. IMO, vegan diet is the PRIORITY and MOST significant to the health of the planet and the beings who share it.

I'm very happy about your decision!

TAKE CARE!

>soymilk that is fortified with B12
>fried tofu
Is soy or tofu good for our health?

My reservation against veganism is this. (Are we really better off than the primitive tribes of the recent past?)...

Vegan Diet Dangers

NuNativs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My reservation against veganism is this. (Are we
> really better off than the primitive tribes of the
> recent past?)...
>
> Vegan Diet Dangers

Take B12, D, flax seed, and a few drops of fulvic acid each day as cheap safe minimal insurance against deficiencies. Throw in a yearly professional checkup with lab tests. No big deal.


So hell yes we are WAY better off than primitive tribals of EVERY past that we know of. Have you forgotten that even your tent has wheels, an engine, and internet access? You can sit there and complain about the times and diets without getting out of your bed. Ingrate.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/2015 02:05PM by SueZ.

Doctors do not associate the hospitals being full of people with non vegan diets. But if a vegan has a problem, they think it is the diet for sure. Therefore, the comparison between vegan/nonvegan problems is not fair and many people are not aware that they don't know. People that say that they do not take supplements may take medications but they see that as normal and acceptable as they are mentally categorized differently. Just take a look at the leading causes of death. Being vegan prevents most all when the vegan diet is well planned.

Cause of death by raping cows and later slaughtering them.



This is what non vegans think health should look like:





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/2015 02:11PM by Panchito.

THeSt0rm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> it's really talking about a trade of being
> socially acceptable vs actually physically
> healthy.

No, it is not. No one really cares about what anyone else is eating. Vegans can live socially acceptably in health.

Panchito wrote:

<<<Doctors do not associate the hospitals being full of people with non vegan diets. But if a vegan has a problem, they think it is the diet for sure.>>>

Well said!

John Rose Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Panchito wrote:
>
> <<>>
>
> Well said!

Maybe but so what? It's simply not true. Panchito is probably basing his statement on some bad doctors he found in a doc in a box establisment. There are good doctors. They can be found if you do your homework.

Suez said:
"So hell yes we are WAY better off than primitive tribals of EVERY past that we know of. Have you forgotten that even your tent has wheels, an engine, and internet access? You can sit there and complain about the times and diets without getting out of your bed. Ingrate."

You should watch The Wonder Lists latest episode "The Island Where People Forget to Die" to understand where I'm coming from.

I'm well aware of the benefits of tech, thus NEW NATIVES with the emphasis on NEW best of the past with the best of the present, minimalized and streamlined, nature AND high tech.

Thing is I keenly watch longevity, and no the new vegans are not breaking the century mark hardly at all which I consider minimum Lifespan. I am not complaining, merely observing.The vegan heart surgeon was featured at the end of the above episode BTW and he passed 100.

I've been out of bed for a couple of hours mind you and have done 50 SunSalutations and am working on my internet based businesses. I will soon lift weights, and then go for a run out at the lake behind the RV park, where I will jump in nude though it's cold. I appreciate my LIFE...

"Ingrate", got a stick up your ass?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/2015 03:01PM by NuNativs.

Panchito said:
"Doctors do not associate the hospitals being full of people with non vegan diets. But if a vegan has a problem, they think it is the diet for sure."

There is a BIG difference though, the hospitals are full of people who are supposedly ignorant of their health, diet implications and sick thereof.

The vegan deaths and poor Lifespan illustrated above are people who CONCIOUSLY ate what they deemed the healthiest diet available, they should be immune to all the diseases they got, unless the theory is incorrect.

I'm not saying something either way, just observing the results as we go along...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/2015 03:01PM by NuNativs.

> i shd be dead I guess.


you are already dead.

you LOVE your story, you LOVE your poor me story. you love it!

you love talking about how the world is against you.

feeds your insatiable ego. makes you one of the GOOD people.

actually there is not one person in the world who is more violent to you than you.

not one.

you are the bully.

what's worse than that is that you constantly bombard other people with your poor me story here. and you commit violence here. you are bullying people here to wade through your BS to get through to other people who are actually saying something of value. people who are living, striving, moving.

let me guess, do you have another poor me response ready?

do you have another "you are mean to me" story ready?

fresh that was very poetic, hope he can hear...

NuNativs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The vegan deaths and poor Lifespan illustrated
> above are people who CONCIOUSLY ate what they
> deemed the healthiest diet available, they should
> be immune to all the diseases they got, unless the
> theory is incorrect.

And how do you know they were doing a well planed diet? There many ways to make any diet unhealthy when being not aware of dietary necessities. My guess is that the cases of your argument where carefully cherry picked to be presented as a convincing general trend. Being vegan does not cure ignorance.

NuNativs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Suez said:
> "So hell yes we are WAY better off than primitive
> tribals of EVERY past that we know of. Have you
> forgotten that even your tent has wheels, an
> engine, and internet access? You can sit there and
> complain about the times and diets without getting
> out of your bed. Ingrate."
>
> You should watch The Wonder Lists latest episode
> "The Island Where People Forget to Die" to
> understand where I'm coming from.
>
> I'm well aware of the benefits of tech, thus NEW
> NATIVES with the emphasis on NEW best of the past
> with the best of the present, minimalized and
> streamlined, nature AND high tech.
>
> Thing is I keenly watch longevity, and no the new
> vegans are not breaking the century mark hardly at
> all which I consider minimum Lifespan. I am not
> complaining, merely observing.The vegan heart
> surgeon was featured at the end of the above
> episode BTW and he passed 100.
>
> I've been out of bed for a couple of hours mind
> you and have done 50 SunSalutations and am working
> on my internet based businesses. I will soon lift
> weights, and then go for a run out at the lake
> behind the RV park, where I will jump in nude
> though it's cold. I appreciate my LIFE...
>
> "Ingrate", got a stick up your ass?

Hahaha. I have to get a TV and watch a TV show to understand where you're coming from, lol. You've made us quite well aware that you've learned how to work and milk the system while giving it the finger and contributing nothing of value, putz. Just don't know your snake in the grass angle yet on why you're trolling a raw vegan website. Not that it really matters.

Suez says:
"You've made us quite well aware that you've learned how to work and milk the system while giving it the finger and contributing nothing of value, putz. Just don't know your snake in the grass angle yet on why you're trolling a raw vegan website."

My value is that I continually point towards Nature. I use the tools of the time as a way to be in the Matrix, and yet out of it as much as possible as Nature (Sun/Light, Air, Water, Earth) is where true fullfillment and joy exist. I'm not pointing a finger AT, I'm pointing a finger TOWARDS.

Exactly what are you contributing to humans that is of such great value? You seem to contribute a healthy amount of venom and anger at least on this board.

I'm not trolling, I am a health and longevity enthusiast and this forum is supposedly one avenue towards that aim. Paul Bragg said make health your hobby, don't take it too seriously, which I don't.

(Health Nutz...t.m.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/2015 03:34PM by NuNativs.

Panchito wrote:
"And how do you know they were doing a well planed diet?"

Let's just take the often quoted and admired Shelton and TC Fry for example.

Herbert M. Shelton was the most influential Natural Hygienist of the 20th century. For six decades he preached the superiority of a raw vegan diet of fruits, vegetables and nuts. Did he enjoy a long and vigorous life? No! He was in a declining state of health in his sixties, and was bedridden for the final 13 years of his life due to Parkinson’s disease. He died at just 89.

His protégé, T.C. Fry, taught the infallibility of a raw vegan diet for 26 years, yet he died at the ridiculously young age of 70!! However, even more disturbing is the fact that he suffered from numerous health problems long before his death. According to Dr Bernarr Zovluck, a close friend for 30 years, Fry died from coronary embolism. He also had multiple atherosclerotic thrombi of his lower legs, edema, a lesion on his left lung, anemia, high acid blood pH, breathing problems, constipation, osteoporosis, teeth and gum problems, etc.

Doesn't it give you a bit of pause, the results obtained?

suncloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Banana Who,
>
> Best wishes as you embark on your vegan
> experiment!
>
> I would just caution that people have different
> experiences with B12, and some become deficient
> within a relatively short period of time. Also,
> sometimes there are warning symptoms, and
> sometimes not.
>
> On the other hand, my husband has been vegan for
> as long as me (since 1986), and he never takes a
> B12 supplement. He DOES include the Red Star
> B12-fortified nutritional yeast just about
> everyday. He puts it on popcorn, in soup,
> sprinkled over toast with avocado, fried tofu,
> etc. We do a special order for it from our local
> health food store, because the nutritional yeast
> available in the bin is not fortified. Red Star
> sells both.
>
> Anyway, that's another vegan option if you'd
> rather not have the fortified soy milk. The yeast
> is not raw, but whatever! I think you're making a
> great move. IMO, vegan diet is the PRIORITY and
> MOST significant to the health of the planet and
> the beings who share it.
>
> I'm very happy about your decision!
>
> TAKE CARE!

Wow! Thanks again! I do use nutritional yeast. And my goal is to be high-raw so I will be using "nootch" regularly.

NuNativs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Suez says:
> "You've made us quite well aware that you've
> learned how to work and milk the system while
> giving it the finger and contributing nothing of
> value, putz. Just don't know your snake in the
> grass angle yet on why you're trolling a raw vegan
> website."
>
> My value is that I continually point towards
> Nature. I use the tools of the time as a way to be
> in the Matrix, and yet out of it as much as
> possible as Nature (Sun/Light, Air, Water, Earth)
> is where true fullfillment and joy exist. I'm not
> pointing a finger AT, I'm pointing a finger
> TOWARDS


Nothing wrong with romanticizing living in a trailer park I guess if that's where you want to be.


edit


> I'm not trolling, I am a health and longevity
> enthusiast and this forum is supposedly one avenue
> towards that aim. Paul Bragg said make health your
> hobby, don't take it too seriously, which I
> don't.
>
> (Health Nutz...t.m.)


Who are you trying to fool? Your trolling.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/2015 03:43PM by SueZ.

NuNativs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Panchito wrote:
> "And how do you know they were doing a well planed
> diet?"
>
> Let's just take the often quoted and admired
> Shelton and TC Fry for example.

again, you seem to be cherry picking cases. Why don't you draw conclusions from this one instead?

[www.youtube.com]

Suez said:
"Exactly what are you contributing to humans that is of such great value?

As expected you avoided the question, so what does the mighty knoble Suez contribute???

Panchito wrote:
"again, you seem to be cherry picking cases. Why don't you draw conclusions from this one instead? "

I mentioned him above, he was on the show and has cracked 100, that's great, yet that's one.

I'm not cherry picking, there is a lot of what I consider failure to thrive, (past 100).

My great gramndma lived to 103, cracked walnuts with her teeth, hardy, stronger than anyone except maybe my grandpa...

Suez was asked repeatedly:
"Exactly what are you contributing to humans that is of such great value?

Registered nurse???
RealEstate???
Parking Ticket Cop???
Secretary at a Law Firm???
Customer service rep???
Waitress at a greasy spoon???
Beautician for senior women???
DMV Clerk???

I know...
Divorced recieving alimony???

(Something is making you bitter...)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/2015 04:12PM by NuNativs.

NuNativs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I mentioned him above, he was on the show and has
> cracked 100, that's great, yet that's one.

In your arguments, you omit the people that die from not-being-vegan causes, which is a huge number, and correspondingly, more relevant since you were the one saying that being vegan is unhealthy (and then justifying it with some non vegan people living over 100). Therefore, you incorrectly associate living over 100 to a healthy non-vegan diet, but ignoring the other 99.999% of the population. It is as if you want people to believe that the trick of longetivity is about not being vegan, which is a mistake probably derived from you projecting your own personal choices. You have failed to explain why are the hospitals full of non vegans if being non vegan is healthy.

A more appropiate question would be what is the life expectancy of non vegans compared to vegans?

[nutritionfacts.org]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/2015 04:38PM by Panchito.

NuNativs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Suez was asked repeatedly:
> "Exactly what are you contributing to humans that
> is of such great value?
>
> Registered nurse???
> RealEstate???
> Parking Ticket Cop???
> Secretary at a Law Firm???
> Customer service rep???
> Waitress at a greasy spoon???
> Beautician for senior women???
> DMV Clerk???
>
> I know...
> Divorced recieving alimony???
>
> (Something is making you bitter...)

Lol, none of the above but, hey, if you want to be king of the NuHippyHobos, and can make a living off of pied pipering them off the streets and willingly into remote trailer parks, more power to you. You will make many people happy even though they won't know how or why, exactly, their streets got cleaned up.

Suez says:
"Lol, none of the above"

Then what is it love that makes your "profession" so superior??? Come on, don't counter with another lame attempt at an insult, put it out there for us to bow and revere...

(I'd put up a photo essay of the "trailer parks" I've been in of late, but I have things to do at the moment to secure my FREEDOM)

"You can line a CAGE with gold, but it's still a CAGE" Kay Peterson founder of the Escapees



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/2015 05:29PM by NuNativs.