[www.youtube.com]

Well presented, very interesting.

RawPracticalist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well presented, very interesting.


Not in reality.


"Fasting
Nothing per oral (NPO) after dinner. Subject is not allowed to eat or drink before the test.

• Fasting Blood Sugar (FBS) 8 to 12 hours fasting
• Uric Acid 8 hours fasting
• Bilirubin (TB, B1, B2) 4 hours fasting
• Lipid Profile 9 to 12 hours fasting
(total cholesterol, triglycerides, HDL, LDL, VLDL)"



[ww35.medical.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2015 02:37AM by SueZ.

Andrew Perlot's experiment was sort of OK, but absolutely NOT OK for providing evidence of his claims.

The sort of OK part:

An oral glucose tolerance test that involves testing blood glucose 2 hours after a meal IS one method for diagnosing diabetes. It's also a way for people with diabetes to check their glucose response to meal.

But here's the absolutely NOT OK glitch: Andrew Perlot doesn't have diabetes! If a person doesn't have diabetes (or prediabetes), blood glucose will remain within the normal range - no matter how much sugar is consumed. It's only when a person actually has diabetes, that blood sugar will rise in response to carbs in a meal.

So basically, the only thing that Andrew Perlot proved was that he doesn't have diabetes.

The demonstration does NOT provide any evidence that a person with diabetes can eat that many bananas without an excessive rise in blood sugar.

And since this was just one event with just one person and no control group for comparison, the demonstration does NOT provide any evidence of the effect of following this eating pattern consistently over time.

My understanding from Andrew Perlot's website is that he is only 29, and his YouTube text says,"For almost eight years now, I've been dumping huge amounts of sugar into my blood stream with almost every meal." Although we are now seeing Type 2 diabetes at a younger age, it still most commonly occurs after age 30.

All that said, the more important point IMO is that we don't currently have evidence that a high sugar diet can CAUSE diabetes. We do have evidence that a diet high in SATURATED fat promotes insulin resistance, which is the marker for Type 2 diabetes.

Contrary to Perlot's claims though, we also don't have evidence that plant-based mono- and polyunsaturated fats have the same effect as animal-based saturated fats. It's true that Dr. Barnard's research involved a group following a low fat, high carb vegan diet, but his research compared this with diets that included animal fats. The low-fat vegan diet was never compared with a higher-fat vegan diet. And Dr. Barnard's high carbs came mostly from starches.

There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that a person with diabetes can transition safely off their meds and avoid severe hypoglycemic risk on a raw food 80-10-10 diet without qualified assistance.

Andrew Perlot is not qualified, and his book would not be an adequate resource for providing that assistance.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2015 10:27AM by suncloud.

Andrew did not set out to make a point regarding diabetes although people have healed diabetes on raw diets.

he was responding to people who claim (as brian clement and others do) that fruit spikes your blood sugar dangerously or that eating fruit makes your blood sugar go too high.

in this he succeeded brilliantly.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2015 02:13PM by fresh.

The only thing succeeded at brilliantly was demonstrating that any ignorant can write a book and make a video.

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The only thing succeeded at brilliantly was
> demonstrating that any ignorant can write a book
> and make a video.

suez, you are so sweet.

fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Andrew did not set out to make a point regarding
> diabetes although people have healed diabetes on
> raw diets.
>
> he was responding to people who claim (as brian
> clement and others do) that fruit spikes your
> blood sugar dangerously or that eating fruit makes
> your blood sugar go too high.
>
> in this he succeeded brilliantly.

I wasn't aware that Brian Clement and others make the claim that fruit spikes blood sugar in people who don't have diabetes (or prediabetes)! If so, yes, Andrew Perlot provided evidence that this claim is false, and it's an accurate and important point to make.

However, during the first few seconds into the tape, Andrew Perlot very clearly addressed people with diabetes. His reference to people without diabetes is probable, but not quite as clear. The exact quote is below. Reference to people with diabetes, and that could only apply to people with diabetes is highlighted in red:

"…and today we’re going to bust a particularly persistent myth, and that is that if your blood sugar is rising, if you’ve got Type 2 diabetes, or if you’ve got prediabetes, or if you just think oh you know I ate too much sugar, it was too much sugar and my blood sugar spiked, that really that sugar is the factor to blame…”

Andrew Perlot's demonstration provided no evidence whatsoever regarding the relationship between blood sugar spikes and sugar consumed for a person with Type 2 diabetes or prediabetes - because Andrew Perlot does not have diabetes.

Unfortunately, by claiming his demonstration applied to everyone - with or without diabetes, Andrew Perlot may have actually succeeded in perpetuating the myth that people without diabetes have the same response to carbs as people with diabetes. OOPS!

right, he is extrapolating to diabetics and claiming it is not about the sugar, but the fat, and if they change their diet they will over time be able to eat as he does and heal.

this is not news and stated by many diabetic authorities now.

in other words you are claiming that diabetics will respond differently. yes they will. TODAY. so what? that's the whole point of a transition . he is saying the blood sugar response is caused by fat in the diabetic and the non diabetic. there is a continuum. just because someone is labeled diabetic doesn't make the mechanism different.

[www.youtube.com]

fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> right, he is extrapolating to diabetics and
> claiming it is not about the sugar, but the fat,
> and if they change their diet they will over time
> be able to eat as he does and heal.
>
> this is not news and stated by many diabetic
> authorities now.
>
> in other words you are claiming that diabetics
> will respond differently. yes they will. TODAY.
> so what? that's the whole point of a transition .
> he is saying the blood sugar response is caused
> by fat in the diabetic and the non diabetic. there
> is a continuum. just because someone is labeled
> diabetic doesn't make the mechanism different.
>
> [www.youtube.com]

Yes, my point is that his demonstration did not apply to people with diabetes, as he claimed.

Also, his conclusions regarding ALL fats (both animal AND plant-based) are not warranted by the evidence presented.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2015 06:56PM by suncloud.

IMO, it's noteworthy that at 2:50, Andrew Perlot says he "had two bananas and a persimmon after that, still a little hungry..."

Unfortunately, I've been there (long time ago); and probably everyone else on the raw version of 80-10-10 for more than a week or two has been there also.

This is a major flaw in Doug Graham's 80-10-10 diet; and no, it's not an emotion thing. IMO, a diet that's not satisfying even after stuffing oneself will not be a sustainable diet; and therefore, it is less than ideal.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2015 07:34PM by suncloud.

yet if his blood sugar HAD risen it would have shown that fruit/sugar is the cause of blood sugar spikes in general. it's a proof by what did not happen, regardless of whether he is labeled diabetic or not. by implication it shows organic dysfunction or dietary issues with diabetics.

suncloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> IMO, it's noteworthy that at 2:50, Andrew Perlot
> says he "had two bananas and a persimmon after
> that, still a little hungry..."
>
> Unfortunately, I've been there (long time ago);
> and probably everyone else on the raw version of
> 80-10-10 for more than a week or two has been
> there also.
>
> This is a major flaw in Doug Graham's 80-10-10
> diet; and no, it's not an emotion thing. IMO, a
> diet that's not satisfying even after stuffing
> oneself will not be a sustainable diet; and
> therefore, it is less than ideal.

depends on what you're eating.
and i don't experience what he said there so it's not inherent to 811

fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> yet if his blood sugar HAD risen it would have
> shown that fruit/sugar is the cause of blood sugar
> spikes in general. it's a proof by what did not
> happen, regardless of whether he is labeled
> diabetic or not. by implication it shows organic
> dysfunction or dietary issues with diabetics.

No, it doesn't. I'm sure Spock would agree.

fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> suncloud Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > IMO, it's noteworthy that at 2:50, Andrew
> Perlot
> > says he "had two bananas and a persimmon after
> > that, still a little hungry..."
> >
> > Unfortunately, I've been there (long time ago);
> > and probably everyone else on the raw version
> of
> > 80-10-10 for more than a week or two has been
> > there also.
> >
> > This is a major flaw in Doug Graham's 80-10-10
> > diet; and no, it's not an emotion thing. IMO,
> a
> > diet that's not satisfying even after stuffing
> > oneself will not be a sustainable diet; and
> > therefore, it is less than ideal.
>
> depends on what you're eating.
> and i don't experience what he said there so it's
> not inherent to 811

I'm glad if you don't experience this, and sad if you do.

I'm open to the possibility that a sustainable raw vegan diet may reverse diabetes long-term. As far as we now know, this could include a high carb raw food diet - and/or possibly a low carb raw food diet. Currently there is no verifiable evidence to support either. Any claims to the contrary are inaccurate.

Anecdotal internet claims are interesting, but don't qualify as evidence, and certainly would never qualify as "proof".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2015 07:47PM by suncloud.

if it were you, it would qualify as evidence to you.

kirt tyson claims to not use insulin anymore. type 1.
he was one of the rawfor30 participants with cousens.

anecdote!

[www.youtube.com]

not high fruit

fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> if it were you, it would qualify as evidence to
> you.

Yes, agreed. But that's as far as it could go. Strong evidence involves an experimental group, a control group, appropriate methodology, and replication. Anecdotal (case history) evidence is considered the weakest form of evidence. Andrew Perlot's demonstration involving himself doesn't even meet that weakest standard as a case history involving diabetes, since Andrew Perlot doesn't have diabetes.

In contrast, Dr. Barnard's research cited by Andrew Perlot in the same video has a Class A rating for methodology, but the research involves starch as the main carb, not fruit. And Barnard's control group consumed highly-saturated animal fats, not nuts, seeds or avocados.

And despite the Class A rating for Dr. Barnard's research, the evidence remains "limited", because it has so far not been replicated - which is required for verification of the evidence.

At the same time, there is ALSO limited evidence of a positive relationship between the intake of animal protein products and Type 2 diabetes, so to attribute anything to avocados, nuts, and seeds (as Perlot did) is extremely premature.

> kirt tyson claims to not use insulin anymore. type
> 1.
> he was one of the rawfor30 participants with
> cousens.

So we are told. However, Cousens no longer claims to reverse Type 1 diabetes with raw food diet, and no longer even accepts people with Type 1 diabetes into his group program.

And, the Cousens diet - though raw - is NOT low fat. Nor has the research ever been published, rated for methodology, or verified through replication.

As I mentioned before, I'm open to all of it regarding a raw vegan approach. But we don't have verifiable evidence for any of it. Case histories will hopefully increase interest and someday help motivate further studies.

fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> anecdote!
>
> [www.youtube.com]
>
> not high fruit


Good for Dr. Tyson for getting a real degree from a real university (Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine and Health Sciences, accredited by Council on Naturopathic Medical Education)!

Noteworthy: Dr. Tyson endorses a raw vegan diet - not specifically the same diet promoted by Doug Graham. It could be there are many diets capable of reversing diabetes.

do you know what fuhrman's program is?

[www.amazon.com]

Hi fresh, I wasn't aware of the book you cited by Dr. Fuhrman. I'd like to have it! I've read his book on fasting, which does include cases of people with diabetes.

I'm assuming the diet is vegan and includes cooked foods, not necessarily very low fat, and with fasting also included as an aid to recovery; but this would be just a guess.

Thanks for the link (wish I could get it today)!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2015 11:18PM by suncloud.

suncloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> fresh Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > anecdote!
> >
> > [www.youtube.com]
> >
> > not high fruit
>
>
> Good for Dr. Tyson for getting a real degree from
> a real university (Southwest College of
> Naturopathic Medicine and Health Sciences,
> accredited by Council on Naturopathic Medical
> Education)!
>
> Noteworthy: Dr. Tyson endorses a raw vegan diet -
> not specifically the same diet promoted by Doug


> Graham. It could be there are many diets capable
> of reversing diabetes.

very likely.
interesting how much nuts tyson ate.

fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...interesting how much nuts tyson ate.

How much nuts did he eat?

[www.naturalnews.com]

not sure of his status today

[www.facebook.com]


i don't know...seems like minimizing meat and/or cooked is a common thread, not necessarily fat.

[www.chewfo.com]

1300 calories for B, L and dinner?

fresh Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> i don't know...seems like minimizing meat and/or
> cooked is a common thread, not necessarily fat.

Agreed.

fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> [www.chewfo.com]
> -joel-fuhrman-md-2013-what-to-eat-and-foods-to-avo
> id-food-list/
>
> 1300 calories for B, L and dinner?


Thanks for the Fuhrman link. Wow, that's very low, and it seems like both fats and fruits are restricted. Probably this diet would lead to major weight loss if a person sticks to it. This by itself is known to increase insulin sensitivity, resulting in lowering blood glucose.

[www.drfuhrman.com]

i doubt these people stick to 1100-1300 calories - not enough details, but whatever they did worked.

amazing that people can make careers around saying eat fruits and veggies

[fruit-powered.com]

Health is the single most important issue.
When we are not feeling well life is miserable.
In most cases conventional medicine cannot save us.
So there are many looking for solutions.
There is a huge demand for that kind of information