fruit bats healthy eating just fruit in the wild

b12 deficient eating cultivated washed fruit in captivity

:evidence for human vegan potential in the wild.


[books.google.com]

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Did you read the article or just the abstract?


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"the lesson is vigorous washing of fruit in some situations may lead to b12 deficiency"

who washes their fruit, or their vegies for that matter...?

NuNativs on YouTube...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2015 02:55AM by NuNativs.

Aren't we getting desperate when we need to look at studies on fruit bats?

There is a simple solution to all the questions being posed for human veganism in the wild. There is a simple way to answer all the doubters. All we need are a few volunteers willing to take the challenge - as opposed to keyboard warriors, or shopping warriors. Here is the challenge.

All we need are a couple of volunteers willing to go to the Congo in tropical equatorial Africa and live with the chimps and bonobos deep in the jungle for 1 or 2 years. All the conditions are ideal - perfect weather and all the natural fresh unwashed fruit full of B12 straight from the trees. No need to worry about B12 or iodine or anything else.

None of this fruit has ever been tampered with, and it's all free so no excuses about organic fruit being to expensive or lacking fibre or whatever.

Then the volunteers can come back and tell us if they needed to: eat 1500 or 3500 calories, if they were satisfied with the natural fruit, if they needed salt, how they felt and everything else. Anyone up for the challenge?

BJ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Aren't we getting desperate when we need to look
> at studies on fruit bats?
>
> There is a simple solution to all the questions
> being posed for human veganism in the wild. There
> is a simple way to answer all the doubters. All we
> need are a few volunteers willing to take the
> challenge - as opposed to keyboard warriors, or
> shopping warriors. Here is the challenge.
>
> All we need are a couple of volunteers willing to
> go to the Congo in tropical equatorial Africa and
> live with the chimps and bonobos deep in the
> jungle for 1 or 2 years. All the conditions are
> ideal - perfect weather and all the natural fresh
> unwashed fruit full of B12 straight from the
> trees. No need to worry about B12 or iodine or
> anything else.
>
> None of this fruit has ever been tampered with,
> and it's all free so no excuses about organic
> fruit being to expensive or lacking fibre or
> whatever.
>
> Then the volunteers can come back and tell us if
> they needed to: eat 1500 or 3500 calories, if they
> were satisfied with the natural fruit, if they
> needed salt, how they felt and everything else.
> Anyone up for the challenge?

Great idea. That would also be a great idea for a tv documentary.

Quotes from inside that article:

"The natural dietary source of vitamin B12 for these animals is unknown, but they probably obtain their vitamin B12 either by the inadvertent ingestion of insects present in or on the fruit they eat, or by drinking stagnant water contaminated with vitamin B12-producing micro-organisms."

"These figs contain large numbers of insects such as fruit flies and ants which would contain vitamin B12 and presumably are ingested by the bats."

( Vitamin B12 metabolism in the fruit bat (Rousettus aegyptiacus). The induction of vitamin B12 deficiency and its effect on folate levels. Van Tonder S.V., Metz J., Green R. (1975) British Journal of Nutrition, 34 (3) , pp. 397-410. )

There is no word "vegan" anywhere in the article.


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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2015 12:17PM by rawgosia.

Also, the authors report the finding that the B12 levels of the fruitbats living in the wild would decline during the periods they fed on cultivated fruit, and increase during the periods they fed on uncultivated fruit that contains lots of insects.

So the article is in fact suggesting that it is the consumption of insects that might be making the difference. I do not believe that eating insects falls in the category of a vegan diet. Does it?


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unknown

probably

presumably

these are the words you are quoting to claim that the source is insects.

I volunteer fresh...

marina chapman already did it.

i am going to live with lois instead.

no need to interact with yucky nature or other yucky "people"

yuckity yuck.

fresh, do you believe that the bats would pick the insects out of the figs?

They tested the bats and the connection between what they ate and their B12 levels was indicative.

Did you actually read the article? If you did you would know that the first quote was from someone else's work being quoted. Why would you draw conclusions from article you did not read? Why would you quote the article while making claims contrary to its content in the first place? And why would you make claims about the article having anything to do with veganism when the authors clearly do not. The bats ate cultivated fruit with no insects, their B12 were dropping, they ate figs with insects, the levels were going up.


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Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2015 02:19PM by rawgosia.

BJ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Aren't we getting desperate when we need to look
> at studies on fruit bats?
>
> There is a simple solution to all the questions
> being posed for human veganism in the wild. There
> is a simple way to answer all the doubters. All we
> need are a few volunteers willing to take the
> challenge - as opposed to keyboard warriors, or
> shopping warriors. Here is the challenge.
>
> All we need are a couple of volunteers willing to
> go to the Congo in tropical equatorial Africa and
> live with the chimps and bonobos deep in the
> jungle for 1 or 2 years. All the conditions are
> ideal - perfect weather and all the natural fresh
> unwashed fruit full of B12 straight from the
> trees. No need to worry about B12 or iodine or
> anything else.
>
> None of this fruit has ever been tampered with,
> and it's all free so no excuses about organic
> fruit being to expensive or lacking fibre or
> whatever.
>
> Then the volunteers can come back and tell us if
> they needed to: eat 1500 or 3500 calories, if they
> were satisfied with the natural fruit, if they
> needed salt, how they felt and everything else.
> Anyone up for the challenge?

If we all go into the wild Congo it will cease to be wild

rawgosia Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> fresh, do you believe that the bats would pick the
> insects out of the figs?
>
> They tested the bats and the connection between
> what they ate and their B12 levels was
> indicative.
>
> Did you actually read the article? If you did you
> would know that the first quote was from someone
> else's work being quoted. Why would you draw
> conclusions from article you did not read? Why
> would you quote the article while making claims
> contrary to its content in the first place? And
> why would you make claims about the article having
> anything to do with veganism when the authors
> clearly do not. The bats ate cultivated fruit with
> no insects, their B12 were dropping, they ate figs
> with insects, they were going up.

lighten up gosia. i wasn't really offering the study of proof of anything.

the heading of the topic was just drama/wishful/conjecture

the study is possibly supportive of the b12/sterile food/environment theory.

that's all.

as far as your comments about insects

b12 status does not require that insects to be ingested and there is absolutely no indication to support your insistence regarding insects being the source, as b12 potentially exists everywhere, dirt, water, surface of fruits, inside fruits, etc.

Lighten up fresh. I only insist on correct reporting and reading the source. The study talks about insects not veganism, or other imagined factors. Their B12 levels were dropping IN THE WILD when they were eating fruit with no insects. So nothing to do with sterile environment.


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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2015 02:41PM by rawgosia.

rawgosia Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lighten up fresh. I only insist on correct
> reporting and reading the source. The study talks
> about insects not veganism, or other imagined
> factors.

>Their B12 levels were dropping IN THE
> WILD when they were eating fruit with no insects.
> So nothing to do with sterile environment.

show me where it says that.

fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> marina chapman already did it.
>
> i am going to live with lois instead.
>
> no need to interact with yucky nature or other
> yucky "people"
>
> yuckity yuck.


You're gonna be bored there man. Get in your trailer and let's go guerilla plant figs and goji berries across the Southern U.S....

NuNativs on YouTube...

>You're gonna be bored there man. Get in your trailer and let's go guerilla plant figs and goji berries across the Southern U.S....

right on.



[www.dailymail.co.uk]

> rawgosia Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------

> >Their B12 levels were dropping IN THE
> > WILD when they were eating fruit with no
> insects.
> > So nothing to do with sterile environment.
>


show me where it says that.

fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> i am going to live with lois instead.

You're not invited.

> no need to interact with yucky nature or other
> yucky "people"

> yuckity yuck.

Your words, not mine. You're characterizing.

Lois, could WE just use "your" land to start the trees and bushes so that WE could plant the surrounding landscape that's not "owned" yet?!?

NuNativs on YouTube...

I thought all land in the US was 'owned' - either by individuals or the government.

You just want to go around planting trees and bushes for the beauty, food, environment, sustainability? Do you want to do that even on land that's 'owned'? Or do you mean in your perfect world, no one would own any land and people like you would landscape the planet for food and sustainability for everyone - permaculture - permaculture the world - and you would tend to Gaia?

I think it is all "owned", I am refering to "public land" but if the agencies get a wiff of non-native species, they're gone.

I would prefer the latter, I think that is Paradise/Eden but that would take a whole different global mindset whereby WE could look at the landscape and plant that which would grow best according to the lay of the land, climate/micro-climate, elevation etc.

For instance where I am right now the food belt is 1000-3000 feet but ya, every square inch is "owned, fenced, barb wired and signed "NO TRESPASSING". My fantasy is it's all public and the "tribe is working it cooperatively and seasonally like the Native Americans did detailed in "Tending the Wild" though they focused on native wild species.

Oh well, I'll keep dreaming...

fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > rawgosia Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
>
> > >Their B12 levels were dropping IN THE
> > > WILD when they were eating fruit with no
> > insects.
> > > So nothing to do with sterile environment.
> >
>
>
> show me where it says that.


Now gosia is holding JR to a scientific standard over on vegsource, yet repeatedly ignores my requests to support her statement above.

it's just a simple question.

you have asserted that the difference was insects. based on this...

"The natural dietary source of vitamin B12 for these animals is unknown, but they probably obtain their vitamin B12 either by the inadvertent ingestion of insects present in or on the fruit they eat, or by drinking stagnant water contaminated with vitamin B12-producing micro-organisms."

"These figs contain large numbers of insects such as fruit flies and ants which would contain vitamin B12 and presumably are ingested by the bats."

Is this what you call conclusive proof to support your statement? probably? presumably?

I would say that we don't know the source of the b12.
could be insect or non insect source.

I merely said that it is possible evidence for viable human veganism in the wild - i said nothing conclusive.

So support your statement, or alternatively, refrain from holding others to a standard that you don't adhere to.

fresh, I am not sure why you are asking this. I just read the article that YOU are quoting, and all I said was coming from there.

Those scientists who wrote it, were making experiments on the bats, in order to learn about B12 deficiency (because the symptoms of deficiency are similar to those in humans, and they were hoping to infer from it), and while they were doing it,

1) they found that the captured (and then murdered) bats had lower B12 levels in the season they were feeding on cultivated fruit with less insects, and more in the season when they ate wild figs that have insects in them
2) in order to induce B12 deficiency, they washed the fruit they gave to the captured bats to ensure there was no insects on it, and the bats would quickly get B12 deficient.


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rawgosia Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> fresh, I am not sure why you are asking this. I
> just read the article that YOU are quoting, and
> all I said was coming from there.
>
> Those scientists who wrote it, were making
> experiments on the bats, in order to learn about
> B12 deficiency (because the symptoms of deficiency
> are similar to those in humans, and they were
> hoping to infer from it), and while they were
> doing it,
>
> 1) they found that the captured (and then
> murdered) bats had lower B12 levels in the season
> they were feeding on cultivated fruit with less
> insects, and more in the season when they ate wild
> figs that have insects in them
> 2) in order to induce B12 deficiency, they washed
> the fruit they gave to the captured bats to ensure
> there was no insects on it, and the bats would
> quickly get B12 deficient.

you are editorializing. I am asking you WHERE in the study text it quantifies anything or provides ANY DATA with respect to insects that would enable them to confidently conclude that it was the INSECTS as you have stated . in fact they even mention water with bacteria, hence nothing to do with insects.

"These figs contain large numbers of insects such as fruit flies and ants which would contain vitamin B12 and presumably are ingested by the bats."

This statement above is not scientific in the least. if this is your basis or their basis, that's fine with me but it is not even close to being cause to make your statement that is must be the insects.

"you are editorializing"
No, I have simply summarized the key points, which point out that you have not provided the evidence of your claim.


Note that this is a logical fallacy that you are applying here. In order to support the claim of "evidence for human vegan potential in the wild", you need to show that evidence, not spend your time arguing that you cannot disprove it.

The question that I am asking is:

WHERE in the study text it quantifies anything or provides ANY DATA that would enable to confidently conclude that the bats were vegan? WHERE in the study text it quantifies anything or provides ANY DATA that would enable to confidently conclude that there is "evidence for human vegan potential in the wild"?

Clearly there is NO evidence of human veganism potential in the article. There is NO evidence of bat veganism in there even. The word vegan is not even mentioned there. This is a wrong article to quote in support of such claim.

I am done with this discussion, and look forward to you sharing a more suitable article that you HAVE READ.


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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/08/2015 12:09AM by rawgosia.

... that you cannot disprove it because you can't prove its negation, I meant, of course.

rawgosia Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "you are editorializing"
> No, I have simply summarized the key points, which
> point out that you have not provided the evidence
> of your claim.
>

you HAVE not, and apparently WILL not show the text from the study that supports your confident statement that the b12 status change was caused by a difference in insect consumption. and that is why you are "summarizing".

>
> Note that this is a logical fallacy that you are
> applying here. In order to support the claim of
> "evidence for human vegan potential in the wild",
> you need to show that evidence, not spend your
> time arguing that you cannot disprove it.
>
> The question that I am asking is:
>
> WHERE in the study text it quantifies anything or
> provides ANY DATA that would enable to confidently
> conclude that the bats were vegan?

i never said that.


WHERE in the
> study text it quantifies anything or provides ANY
> DATA that would enable to confidently conclude
> that there is "evidence for human vegan potential
> in the wild"?
>

If we accept that those bats (who are known to NOT eat insects - although they may of course ingest them unintentionally) in the wild have acceptable b12 status, and when eating "cleaned" fruit (and i do not know the source of the "cleaned fruit", whether it was store bought , or wild and cleaned), the difference in their b12 status suggests that humans eating a fruit based diet in the wild MAY be ok b12-wise, just as the bats are. the source of the b12 is unknown, and is not necessarily insects, although it may be, which is why i am asking you to support your statement, which you have not done.

> Clearly there is NO evidence of human veganism
> potential in the article. There is NO evidence of
> bat veganism in there even. The word vegan is not
> even mentioned there. This is a wrong article to
> quote in support of such claim.
>

if you think you know the source of the b12, i cannot persuade you otherwise.

that source is not determined. i merely pointed out the possibility, to explain the potential, although unproven, ability of an animal with similar b12 metabolism/needs to do so.


> I am done with this discussion, and look forward
> to you sharing a more suitable article that you
> HAVE READ.

if you at some point in time wish TO SHARE the relevant parts of the article or the WHOLE article, that may be enlightening. as of now, you are just failing to share the article in full.

Even if the bats were vegans they did not know they were vegans
They were just happy to be bats
I do not think there are fruits in the wild so clean for them to eat.
There must have been some dirt, tiny insects they could not shake off.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/08/2015 02:51PM by RawPracticalist.