[www.youtube.com]

so you are "flow" on VegSource. You're more prolific than JR lately...

NuNativs on YouTube...

I was only thinking about this much misunderstood issue last night.

Fortunately the body has a balancing mechanism whereby one can absorb more of various nutrients when they are in short supply and absorb less of nutrients that are in greater supply. This will help keep the nutrient balances smoothed out somewhat, none-the-less this is not an ideal situation to be in imo. I feel it is best to try to smooth out the diet as best as we possibly can so the body isn't forced to absorb certain nutrients in an emergency situation to survive.

If you do analysis of various vegan diets you can see some diets with 60% zinc rda, 60% iron rda, 500% copper rda and 550% manganese rda. This type of unbalanced diet is reasonably common in raw vegan diets and forces one's survival mechanisms to kick in to be able to survive on such an unbalanced diet in order to get enough zinc. None-the-less, even Gabriel Cousens has said that vegans can still be on the low side of normal for zinc.

Once again....why put yourself in that survival situation when you don't need to? Why not balance the nutrition better so we get more nutritional synergy? Extreme hardcore diets is not the way to go imo....we want good nutrient levels and good balance.

And lets not forget the rda's don't mean too much because people have different individual nutrient requirements, so relying on the typical vegan diet with it's highly unbalanced nutrient levels is playing with fire imo, and you are placing a ceiling over what the diet can achieve for various individual needs because the amount of nutrients you bring in is limited and unbalanced in most cases,so this is NOT going to serve everyone well, and we see this in real life where various people become deficient in vegan diets where-as others don't. See...we can't be so haphazard in our thinking if we wish for higher success rates in raw veganism, we must learn to teach responsibly and stop the raw food 101 ideas.

www.thesproutarian.com

NuNativs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> so you are "flow" on VegSource. You're more
> prolific than JR lately...


no, i referred to something posted there and "temp" tends to invent things.

Another issue l wanted to bring up is increasing our ability to customise our diets to unique individual situations. The average raw vegan diet is not allowing us to do this. For eg, what happens if a vegan is prone to copper toxicity, how can the average vegan diet that is taught fix this? I don't think it can, well, certainly in theory it can't. We must be able to employ strategy when teaching diet in order to tailor a diet to the individual. So what happens if a vegan is prone to copper toxicity, well, l suppose we could start by re-adjusting the nutrient ratios to keep copper more in check (we could probably do other things also and seek expertise in other areas), but the thing is that we need to go beyond raw food 101 because we aren't all robots.

When we promote limited thinking such as in this video, of course many people will get limited results following this thinking because it is not dealing with the much bigger picture, nor are many of the ideas brought up nothing more than fairy tale thinking.

www.thesproutarian.com

Another issue l wanted to bring up is increasing our ability to customise our diets to unique individual situations. The average raw vegan diet is not allowing us to do this. For eg, what happens if a vegan is prone to copper toxicity, how can the average vegan diet that is taught fix this? I don't think it can, well, certainly in theory it can't. We must be able to employ strategy when teaching diet in order to tailor a diet to the individual. So what happens if a vegan is prone to copper toxicity, well, l suppose we could start by re-adjusting the nutrient ratios to keep copper more in check (we could probably do other things also and seek expertise in other areas), but the thing is that we need to go beyond raw food 101 because we aren't all robots.

When we promote limited thinking such as in this video, of course many people will get limited results following this thinking because it is not dealing with the much bigger picture, nor are many of the ideas brought up nothing more than fairy tale thinking.

www.thesproutarian.com

People talk about copper toxicity a lot so it would be interesting to see actual evidence of it in a raw eater.

people like to frame other people inside molds. This is propably because they don't know much. Most problems are not from diets but from genes. Genes control everything and are behind the making of proteins that make things flow. As we age, the genes shift. Age changes genes (information) and that brings problems that we like to attribute to other fields easier to understand and frame under like diet. A little change can make a huge difference. As you can see, I don't buy the "nutritionist" frame of health. Instead I do buy the "genetic" frame. It underlies everything. The good news is that there is a relation between foods and genetics. With some foods, we can make changes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/28/2015 02:38AM by Panchito.

The issue is...how can such a diet promoted in the video deal with someone who has copper toxicity problems etc? See how such thinking is very limited? See how creating and tailoring nutrient ratios to the individual can be more useful in the real world?

We can't continue to talk like we live in fantasy land, so we must be able to tailor things to the real world.

I shall post this thread in the lady's youtube because we don't won't people falling for the poppycock talk. In this day and age there is no need for such monkey chatter and high level poppycock. When l hear such talk l puff up my cheeks and go "pthhh". Such inanity will simply not do...we can do so much better, so lets get down to business.

www.thesproutarian.com

>The issue is...how can such a diet promoted in the video deal with someone who has copper toxicity problems etc? See how such thinking is very limited? See how creating and tailoring nutrient ratios to the individual can be more useful in the real world?

not that i am going to convince you otherwise, but no, i don't see why it cannot be.

one can make adjustments to any diet.

fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> one can make adjustments to any diet.

Yes, but l am not talking about the raw food 101 adjustments on a superficial level that are often spoken about/. I am talking about using nutritional tools to make `real' and `meaningful' adjustments.

The adjustments go deeper than just on the surface. We can change foods, but so what,lets go deeper than that and change the nutrient interactions in meaningful ways sowe have more tools in our raw food kit so we can customise things better.

Too many raw vegans throw out most of their tools, and it is silly. No wonder so many fail. You won't see me throwing out my tools Fresh, nooo wayyyy. All my tools are bright and shiney, and if l need more tools l am humble enough to ask others for help because l am not the hero here, l only try to find solutions and will combine knowledge when out of my depth.

Lets not be the hero my dear brothers and sisters, lets combine knowledge and find solutions. Two good brains are better than one, but two deluded brains are not much good for anyone.

Lets not get proud my dear brothers and sisters, lets get real,and lets get down to the business of doing the business.

www.thesproutarian.com

well, you better finish that book then.

fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> well, you better finish that book then.

Oh yes, it will be a very important contribution to the vegan literature in helping the movement move into the 21st century in it's thinking. 5 years of intensive research has gone into it and years of practical experience too. It will be my finest contribution to mankind and my lifelong calling, so it needs to be of very high standard and a landmark book.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 04/28/2015 04:20AM by The Sproutarian Man.

There is something wrong with this.

Why is that eating regular raw fruits and vegetables is not enough to sustain us?

Either there is something wrong with the food or something wrong with us or both.

Local food should be enough without resorting to exotic far away supplements.

To be a successful raw vegan, I may need funegreek and chia seeds otherwise I will fail, we are told.

Something is wrong in this picture, especially that these seeds are not available in other parts of the world.

More data and more research is needed to reveal what is going on.

RawPracticalist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Something is wrong in this picture, especially
> that these seeds are not available in other parts
> of the world.



I think the problem is the environment we now live in, the individual and the diet. Where do we get the good balance of omega 3's to combat the stress factors in this modern world? Can we sustain a 3:1 omega 6 - 3 ratio on a fruit and vegetable diet while doing low fat in this world?....doesn't look like many people can. No real recorded vegan cultures in any detail, and no raw vegan cultures, so how do we deal with the high manganese and copper in the diets?

See, everything is un-natural now, so we need to employ extreme un-natural methods for dealing with the problems we face imo. It might not sound natural and right, and that is because we are not living natural and right. What other solutions are there that cover all the pitfalls for an average person?

If you have got other solutions l would love to hear them. How can we get around the raw vegan diet inbalances, and how can we re-adjust the balances to cater for various people?

www.thesproutarian.com

I am not saying that everyone must have chia seeds and fenugreek. What l am saying is that many will fail on the raw vegan diet, and because it is so unbalanced, lets try to smooth it out and provide nutrients in better quantities so we can make up for the lack of meat in the diet and have things nice and balanced.

We can't do much worse than what we are doing on the vegan diet...most fall off the wagon, many get cravings, many get agressive and have all types of issues. This simply will not do. What are the common issues, and how can we fix them? Well,if one struggles with the vegan diet we could try many things as an experiment. Some people need more omega 3, some do better on higher fat, some need higher iron, some need high B vitamins, some need more B12, some need more zinc etc etc. When you bring in various foods l talk about we can fix all of the common inbalances in the raw vegan diet, that is why l talk about them. I am not saying they are essential for everyone, but given the high failure rate we would be wise to be open to the ideas.

Bringing up all these philosophical arguments about this and that not being natural has not served the vegan community well at all. We are not in a position to be making these types of airy fairy arguments until we get more people doing well on these plant diets.

I say to people.... eat a diet you chose to, BUT if you fail lets look at doing things slightly different. We always want back-up solutions just in case....this is where a failed N.H person might be advised to bring out the fenugreek sprouts and chia sprouts to smooth out the diet better etc.

www.thesproutarian.com

I am not saying that your recommendations are invalid, no you are correct in getting us to be on the safer side and have all that is necessary to be healthy.

My problem is on why the normal regular raw food does not have enough source nutrients for zinc and to avoid copper toxicity problem?

Or our bodies are inadequate to produce these from the food we eat

Yes, it is amazing how so few human beings are able to thrive on fruit and vegetable diets. Why aren't we made so we can live like on these diets.

I am convinced there are spiritual reasons on this low level planet why so many seem to need meat, and the spiritual reason is not a good one, rather it is a dark spiritual reason via manipulation by entities on this low level planet. I bet you the spiritual reasons even goes much further than that, but l dare not talk about it here because people are likely not ready to hear it.

A lot of stuff has been filtering through to me from the cosmos of late, and l am not about to share any of it. I refuse to blow minds too far out any longer. The human mind is very fragile and truths must NOT be forthcoming.

One thing l will say is that l think the various entites controlling mankind want us to kill the animals, and most people are too powerless to resist because their life and future is set for this life. Sound fullon? Well, l can get more full on than that, but l refuse to push human minds to the limit here because they are too fragile as it is. Best to keep human beings in a complete illusion on this prison planet, because it is much better this way for the time being. I say to keep mankind blind and don't let heir see.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/28/2015 09:10AM by The Sproutarian Man.

- that's like saying, why can't so many people quit cigarettes?

- you can talk about imbalances all day, but without showing any actual data of these imbalances, it doesn't mean anything. you're just hypothesizing.

- all i see is a b12 issue that is easily solved, and people struggling to cleanse their body and drop addictions.

- i have not seen any examples of a raw eater with copper excess. temp claims this happened to him, but show me the info?

>all i see is a b12 issue that is easily solved, and people struggling to cleanse their body and drop addictions.

Yes the problem is the vehicle, the engine, not the quality of the fuel. Tune up the car and you can drive with unleaded gas. You do not necessarily need super.

The body is polluted with bad thoughts and addictions. It cannot process the local foods.

RP wrote:
"The body is polluted with bad thoughts and addictions. It cannot process the local foods."

Local foods? I think the main problem is that the diet is removed from the landscape. Agriculture is only 10,000 years old. Most of the foods that rawists are subsisting on are weak hybrids that don't occur in nature.

Wheat, sunflower, romaine, cauliflower, peppers, cucumbers, peas etc. I know I bring this up a lot but the book "Tending the Wild" illustrates how the Native Americans in California cultivated WILD foods on a mass scale, expanding what naturally grew WILD.

Of course they ate most of their food cooked also. But listening to you debate the inadequacies of the raw vegan diet, though fresh is convinced he can trot off into the WILD and be fine, makes one pause and ask, "Are we better off trying to maintain a raw vegan diet under artificial conditions, or were we healthier, stronger and more robust on acorns, berries, and fish, cooked or not?!?"

As TSM stated their were no vegan cultures found. Is that because without artificial agriculture a vegan diet is an anomaly in WILD nature? That's the reason I advocate Permaculture food development as at least WE can plant the WILD landscape with foods that are more robust as they can eventually exist without OUR pampering hands...

NuNativs on YouTube...

TSM/Brian wrote:

<<<All my tools are bright and shiney>>>

Thanks for the chuckle.

<<<Lets not be the hero my dear brothers and sisters>>>

So now you're saying that we should NOT take Responsibility and Correct our Mistakes or do you just NOT understand the Hero's Journey?

RP wrote:

<<<[fresh wrote:]
>all i see is a b12 issue that is easily solved, and people struggling to cleanse their body and drop addictions.

Yes the problem is the vehicle, the engine, not the quality of the fuel. Tune up the car and you can drive with unleaded gas. You do not necessarily need super.

The body is polluted with bad thoughts and addictions. It cannot process the local foods.>>>

Yes, way to go fresh and RP!!!

TSM/Brian wrote:

<<<No real recorded vegan cultures in any detail, and no raw vegan cultures>>>

[www.thehealersjournal.com]
Veganism: History, Health and Spirituality
THE HISTORY AND FUTURE OF VEGANISM
By Dr. Gabriel Cousens

A small group of people argue that human beings were originally hunter-gatherers who evolved eating the flesh of animals. This is a self-serving myth that is simply historically inaccurate. This mythical view implies that human evolution began with the ice age (20,000 years ago), when meat-eating became temporarily essential for survival. This relatively recent time period is not the point of historical origin for humans on the planet, but it was a dark passage, in which our survival needs eclipsed our compassion and empathy.

...

Plant-source nutrition, however, has still been the primary diet of humanity during the last 10,000 years of recorded history. And there are many examples of cultures that thrived on plant-source-only nutrition, including Herodotus’ Pelagasians, who existed 5,000 years ago and had an average age of 200 years on close to a 100% live food plant-source-only diet. (I actually visited Greece to verify their existence and where they lived.) Herodotus, the father of history, also pointed out that plant-source-only cultures were less war-like, and more spiritually and culturally evolved.

...

A plant-source-only diet is both our ancient heritage, the optimal diet to support the spiritual evolution of human consciousness, and our predestined future as we travel along our collective evolutionary spiritual continuum toward the Messianic time of God-consciousness.
[www.thehealersjournal.com]

NuNativs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Local foods? I think the main problem is that the
> diet is removed from the landscape. Agriculture is
> only 10,000 years old. Most of the foods that
> rawists are subsisting on are weak hybrids that
> don't occur in nature.

and yet it is working for many people.

>
> Wheat, sunflower, romaine, cauliflower, peppers,
> cucumbers, peas etc. I know I bring this up a lot
> but the book "Tending the Wild" illustrates how
> the Native Americans in California cultivated WILD
> foods on a mass scale, expanding what naturally
> grew WILD.
>
> Of course they ate most of their food cooked also.
> But listening to you debate the inadequacies of
> the raw vegan diet, though fresh is convinced he
> can trot off into the WILD and be fine,

depends on the environment.

we are not efficient raw eaters in most environments. then again, if you can climb like the 70+ year old robert lockhart raw vegan high fruit that is supposedly unbalanced and deficient.....

we have evolved away from physical attributes that make us efficient raw eating primates like bonobos who can thrive on the same diet we are only able to eat due to cultivation and food transport unless you're living in some ideal tropical fruit paradise.


makes one
> pause and ask, "Are we better off trying to
> maintain a raw vegan diet under artificial
> conditions, or were we healthier, stronger and
> more robust on acorns, berries, and fish, cooked
> or not?!?"
>

proof is in doing it.

i feel best on non animal non cooked.

you?

> As TSM stated their were no vegan cultures found.
> Is that because without artificial agriculture a
> vegan diet is an anomaly in WILD nature?

yes. doesn't mean you can't do it where you are.

your choice. if you're saying we can't eat locally raw and that therefore we should eat cooked, then go ahead, that's what most do. i want high energy.

That's
> the reason I advocate Permaculture food
> development as at least WE can plant the WILD
> landscape with foods that are more robust as they
> can eventually exist without OUR pampering
> hands...

true

John Rose Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> So now you're saying that we should NOT take
> Responsibility and Correct our Mistakes or do you
> just NOT understand the Hero's Journey?



No no, l am saying that we should stop acting like gurus and be prepared to work with other people if needed in order to help a person properly. Too many want all the credit, but l say we need to move beyond that thinking. For eg, if l need advice with helping a person l am happy to reach out to someone and ask, l am not here to be the guru and hero. Being humble is something we need to become more of.

www.thesproutarian.com

<<<l am not here to be the guru and hero.>>>

Brian,

Since you used the words "tools" and "hero" in the same post, it sounded like you making reference to my latest Videos and if so, you obviously are NOT familiar with the Hero's Journey, otherwise, you would know that YOU or ME or ANYONE ELSE CAN NOT BE SOMEONE ELSE'S HERO.

“Joseph Campbell has done much to teach us about the truth that resides in myths. One of the great myths of the world which Campbell has been particularly effective in elucidating is called “The Myth of the Birth of the Hero,” from his book The Quest of the Hero.” M. Scott Peck, "Further Along The Road Less Traveled" p. 110

“A HERO is defined as the person who can solve a problem or problems that other people can’t.” M. Scott Peck, "Further Along The Road Less Traveled" p. 110

So by definition, a Hero is a person that can Solve a Problem or Problems that no one else can Solve and since most of our Problems are Self-Inflicted, that means that each and every one of us are our own Heroes because no one else can Correct the Mistakes that we are making except ourselves.

The Origin of Evil:

Why is there a greater impulse to do the wrong thing than the right thing for most of us?

What that built into our design on purpose so that we can save ourselves?

The Origin of Evil:

Why is there a greater impulse to do the wrong thing than the right thing for most of us?

What that built into our design on purpose so that we can save ourselves?


Two similar posts, another example of evil.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/28/2015 09:50PM by RawPracticalist.

RawPracticalist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Origin of Evil:
>
> Why is there a greater impulse to do the wrong
> thing than the right thing for most of us?
>
> What that built into our design on purpose so that
> we can save ourselves?


I think that none of U.S, no matter how strong can distance OURselves from the masses as the mass conciousness/thought-forms have pull.

If the group were moving towards the positive/LIFE, then it would be easier, what JR calls critical mass.

That is the reason I always refer to U.S., WE, OUR, in any discussion of health or how WE roam the Earth and Live upon it.

ANY decision needs to be multiplied by 7,000,000,000+ and counting. Trying to ignore "them" is OUR peril...

NuNativs on YouTube...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/29/2015 03:50AM by NuNativs.

There is too much evil in the world.
The beheading
Throwing Christians from top of building to their death
The killings by the jihadists of children of women who have done nothing.
We have a long way to go, few good people can change the world but it will take a lot of concentration.