A young girl about 5, was next door at our neighbors house who are doctors and she showed them her butterfly catcher and it was this wooden box with ascreen and the doctor said, OH NO, YOU HAVE TO LET THEM GO and the girl felt really bad and I thought to myself...is that vegan? I am asking you guys, the experts!

There is no such thing as vegan (especially with the status quo of modern day society), the entire concept inevitably collapses because it is contradictory.

That is an out of the box statement JTPRINDL. I like hearing new ideas. My friend thanks for your honest opinion

Vegans shouldn't be worrying so much about little details.

Vegans are still destroying animals big time. Habitat destruction is destroying animals and plants (they're important too!!!) big time, many to extinction. And if you are part of modern society you are a big part of the destruction of habitat. The house you live in, the roads you drive on, the goods you buy in stores, the stores themselves, the mines, factories, ships, trucks, banks, businesses, all modern things are destroying habitat and all the animals and plants that lived on it. And destroying habitat is worse than killing because the animals and plants can not repopulate. Eating bananas destroys habitat (and hence plants and animals) big time (gasp!) The orchard they were grown in has destroyed the native plants and animals. Plus they need to keep the wild animals from coming back and eating the fruit which means killing them. The trucks, ships, roads, warehouses, stores, parking lots, that bring bananas to consumers have destroyed much habitat (and the animals and plants therein) And the ships that carry them run over and kill whales big time (as all ships do). Being vegan probably only reduces one's nature destroying footprint by about 30% so the modern vegan isn't all that much better than a meat eater. But 30% is a big step in the right direction.

Nature lovers of the future will be very sad with the vegan of today. Today's vegan is focusing their efforts on the welfare of pets and domestic animals while nature is being destroyed big time and millions of species of plants and animals are threatened with extinction (or are already extinct). A 100 years from now there will still be plenty of dogs and cats but the millions of extinct animals and plants will never return. Preventing extinction in nature is a trillion trillion - infinitely more important than a few dogs and cats or even the treatment of livestock or even the consumption of meat.

If you love nature, animals and plants and wilderness, being vegan isn't the most important thing one can do. The most important thing to do is to be an environmentalist saving habitat to save whole species of plants and animals from extinction. There are plenty of meat eating environmentalists that are doing far more for the animals and plants than a typical vegan.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/12/2015 10:59PM by brome.

You do understand that it's possible to concern oneself with both little and big details, right? I agree with you in many ways, but thinking that we can't concern ourselves with the so-called "little details" because there are more macro issues at hand is wrong.


brome Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Vegans shouldn't be worrying so much about little
> details.
>
> Vegans are still destroying animals big time.
> Habitat destruction is destroying animals and
> plants (they're important too!!!) big time, many
> to extinction. And if you are part of modern
> society you are a big part of the destruction of
> habitat. The house you live in, the roads you
> drive on, the goods you buy in stores, the stores
> themselves, the mines, factories, ships, trucks,
> banks, businesses, all modern things are
> destroying habitat and all the animals and plants
> that lived on it. And destroying habitat is worse
> than killing because the animals and plants can
> not repopulate. Eating bananas destroys habitat
> (and hence plants and animals) big time (gasp!)
> The orchard they were grown in has destroyed the
> native plants and animals. Plus they need to keep
> the wild animals from coming back and eating the
> fruit which means killing them. The trucks, ships,
> roads, warehouses, stores, parking lots, that
> bring bananas to consumers have destroyed much
> habitat (and the animals and plants therein) And
> the ships that carry them run over and kill whales
> big time (as all ships do). Being vegan probably
> only reduces one's nature destroying footprint by
> about 30% so the modern vegan isn't all that much
> better than a meat eater. But 30% is a big step
> in the right direction.
>
> Nature lovers of the future will be very sad with
> the vegan of today. Today's vegan is focusing
> their efforts on the welfare of pets and domestic
> animals while nature is being destroyed big time
> and millions of species of plants and animals are
> threatened with extinction (or are already
> extinct). A 100 years from now there will still
> be plenty of dogs and cats but the millions of
> extinct animals and plants will never return.
> Preventing extinction in nature is a trillion
> trillion - infinitely more important than a few
> dogs and cats or even the treatment of livestock
> or even the consumption of meat.
>
> If you love nature, animals and plants and
> wilderness, being vegan isn't the most important
> thing one can do. The most important thing to do
> is to be an environmentalist saving habitat to
> save whole species of plants and animals from
> extinction. There are plenty of meat eating
> environmentalists that are doing far more for the
> animals and plants than a typical vegan.

The little brat with the butterfly should be taught to appreciate living beings when they are free, not when she's accosted and caged them. People who love animals in bondage tend to also prefer people in bondage. She'll probably grow up to be jealous and controlling, the type of woman who tells people what they should and shouldn't eat and who they can and can not like. What a drag. I'm so glad that I was raised to appreciate life when it's free.


"There is no fundamental difference between man and animals in their ability to feel pleasure and pain, happiness, and misery."

--Darwin

Brome- Yes, we should worry about the little details. If something living dies or gets injured because of our decision to manhandle it in some way because we feel entitled to do so, then we should care.

Yep, most people won't give a toss and ultimately it doesn't impact you personally or have any real impact on the world but I'm sure the butterfly would have preferred to have been left alone.

I saw a massive flying stag beetle on my walk earlier. It was stunning. I enjoyed watching it and felt no urge to catch it in a net and stare at it in a jar.

Well first she is not a demented brat. The demented one here is HH. She is a beautiful innocent 5 year old little girl who is enchanted with seeing a beautiful butterfly close up. This is a great opportunity to teach her the beauty of the butterfly. Praise her and help her observe it closely, get a magnifying glass and after minutes or hours get her to set it free so it can go out and forage. She'll be delighted to see it fly off. She'll learn to love butterflys and love to see them free. With HH accosting her she would learn to hate vegans, dislike butterflys, and avoid animal rights.

Plant a butterfly garden with plants for the caterpillars to eat and plants for the butterflys to sip nectar at.

However not all butterflys should be set free. Some are crop pests, even to organic growers. One pest butterfly can lay 100s of eggs which hatch into crop destroying caterpillars. Or how about grain moths or wool moths? What if she had cockroaches or ticks or mosquitoes in her jar? In this modern, out of balance world even vegans have to face up to some problem insects when the natural controls (birds, beneficial insects...) are not present.

Plus keep in mind how many butterflys and insects you kill everyday driving your car. Or the number killed everyday by the trucks and trains bringing the food and other goods to the stores you shop in. Or the number killed by the habitat destruction your modern lifestyle entails.

Plus modern humans, including vegans, need captured, enslaved animals - (the dogs, cats, horses,.... all the pets are all very enslaved no matter how pampered) - because they need a very close relationship to learn about them and develop empathy for them. The enslaved animals are ambassadors for the animal world, teaching humans about how beautiful they are both physically and spiritually. If you free all these animals, humans would never learn deeply about animals and overall animals would then be far worse off.

I never said that she's "demented." I don't care if you call me names but don't put words in my mouth. By calling her a brat I meant that she's been raised questionably. A lot of kids are brats. This includes those who abuse nature. Besides, not all children are these perfect little angels. When I was 5 I knew some kids who were complete sociopaths.

I would be very gentle with her, but I would definitely never teach her that placing a butterfly under bondage is okay.

Yes, nature is complex and so is our relationship with it, but we're talking about a butterfly here, not some rabies infested predator. I also believe that our relationship with nature is completely out of whack because we've used and abused it so much. That abuse starts with little kids thinking that it's okay to take living beings from their natural habitats.


brome Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well first she is not a demented brat. The
> demented one here is HH. She is a beautiful
> innocent 5 year old little girl who is enchanted
> with seeing a beautiful butterfly close up. This
> is a great opportunity to teach her the beauty of
> the butterfly. Praise her and help her observe it
> closely, get a magnifying glass and after minutes
> or hours get her to set it free so it can go out
> and forage. She'll be delighted to see it fly
> off. She'll learn to love butterflys and love to
> see them free. With HH accosting her she would
> learn to hate vegans, dislike butterflys, and
> avoid animal rights.
>
> Plant a butterfly garden with plants for the
> caterpillars to eat and plants for the butterflys
> to sip nectar at.
>
> However not all butterflys should be set free.
> Some are crop pests, even to organic growers. One
> pest butterfly can lay 100s of eggs which hatch
> into crop destroying caterpillars. Or how about
> grain moths or wool moths? What if she had
> cockroaches or ticks or mosquitoes in her jar? In
> this modern, out of balance world even vegans have
> to face up to some problem insects when the
> natural controls (birds, beneficial insects...)
> are not present.
>
> Plus keep in mind how many butterflys and insects
> you kill everyday driving your car. Or the number
> killed everyday by the trucks and trains bringing
> the food and other goods to the stores you shop
> in. Or the number killed by the habitat
> destruction your modern lifestyle entails.
>
> Plus modern humans, including vegans, need
> captured, enslaved animals - (the dogs, cats,
> horses,.... all the pets are all very enslaved no
> matter how pampered) - because they need a very
> close relationship to learn about them and develop
> empathy for them. The enslaved animals are
> ambassadors for the animal world, teaching humans
> about how beautiful they are both physically and
> spiritually. If you free all these animals,
> humans would never learn deeply about animals and
> overall animals would then be far worse off.

brome Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well first she is not a demented brat. The
> demented one here is HH. She is a beautiful
> innocent 5 year old little girl who is enchanted
> with seeing a beautiful butterfly close up. This
> is a great opportunity to teach her the beauty of
> the butterfly. Praise her and help her observe it
> closely, get a magnifying glass and after minutes
> or hours get her to set it free so it can go out
> and forage. She'll be delighted to see it fly
> off. She'll learn to love butterflys and love to
> see them free. With HH accosting her she would
> learn to hate vegans, dislike butterflys, and
> avoid animal rights.
>
> Plant a butterfly garden with plants for the
> caterpillars to eat and plants for the butterflys
> to sip nectar at.
>
> However not all butterflys should be set free.
> Some are crop pests, even to organic growers. One
> pest butterfly can lay 100s of eggs which hatch
> into crop destroying caterpillars. Or how about
> grain moths or wool moths? What if she had
> cockroaches or ticks or mosquitoes in her jar? In
> this modern, out of balance world even vegans have
> to face up to some problem insects when the
> natural controls (birds, beneficial insects...)
> are not present.
>
> Plus keep in mind how many butterflys and insects
> you kill everyday driving your car. Or the number
> killed everyday by the trucks and trains bringing
> the food and other goods to the stores you shop
> in. Or the number killed by the habitat
> destruction your modern lifestyle entails.
>
> Plus modern humans, including vegans, need
> captured, enslaved animals - (the dogs, cats,
> horses,.... all the pets are all very enslaved no
> matter how pampered) - because they need a very
> close relationship to learn about them and develop
> empathy for them. The enslaved animals are
> ambassadors for the animal world, teaching humans
> about how beautiful they are both physically and
> spiritually. If you free all these animals,
> humans would never learn deeply about animals and
> overall animals would then be far worse off.

Excellent post.

It seems the demented "Heavy Hitter" has spiraled off hard into the left field vegan Twilight Zone abyss that so many long term vegans do. Spooky.

Yes, it's an excellent post as long as you ignore the irrelevant tangents and logical fallacies. Let's hope he/she is smart enough to observe butterflies with a magnifying glass when the sun isn't out!


SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> brome Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Well first she is not a demented brat. The
> > demented one here is HH. She is a beautiful
> > innocent 5 year old little girl who is
> enchanted
> > with seeing a beautiful butterfly close up.
> This
> > is a great opportunity to teach her the beauty
> of
> > the butterfly. Praise her and help her observe
> it
> > closely, get a magnifying glass and after
> minutes
> > or hours get her to set it free so it can go
> out
> > and forage. She'll be delighted to see it fly
> > off. She'll learn to love butterflys and love
> to
> > see them free. With HH accosting her she would
> > learn to hate vegans, dislike butterflys, and
> > avoid animal rights.
> >
> > Plant a butterfly garden with plants for the
> > caterpillars to eat and plants for the
> butterflys
> > to sip nectar at.
> >
> > However not all butterflys should be set free.
> > Some are crop pests, even to organic growers.
> One
> > pest butterfly can lay 100s of eggs which hatch
> > into crop destroying caterpillars. Or how about
> > grain moths or wool moths? What if she had
> > cockroaches or ticks or mosquitoes in her jar?
> In
> > this modern, out of balance world even vegans
> have
> > to face up to some problem insects when the
> > natural controls (birds, beneficial insects...)
> > are not present.
> >
> > Plus keep in mind how many butterflys and
> insects
> > you kill everyday driving your car. Or the
> number
> > killed everyday by the trucks and trains
> bringing
> > the food and other goods to the stores you shop
> > in. Or the number killed by the habitat
> > destruction your modern lifestyle entails.
> >
> > Plus modern humans, including vegans, need
> > captured, enslaved animals - (the dogs, cats,
> > horses,.... all the pets are all very enslaved
> no
> > matter how pampered) - because they need a very
> > close relationship to learn about them and
> develop
> > empathy for them. The enslaved animals are
> > ambassadors for the animal world, teaching
> humans
> > about how beautiful they are both physically
> and
> > spiritually. If you free all these animals,
> > humans would never learn deeply about animals
> and
> > overall animals would then be far worse off.
>
> Excellent post.
>
> It seems the demented "Heavy Hitter" has spiraled
> off hard into the left field vegan Twilight Zone
> abyss that so many long term vegans do. Spooky.

I don't find it relevant whether it's vegan or not. Just let the butterflies be would be my preference.

Totally agree.

Utopian Life Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't find it relevant whether it's vegan or
> not. Just let the butterflies be would be my
> preference.

brome Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The enslaved animals are
> ambassadors for the animal world, teaching humans
> about how beautiful they are both physically and
> spiritually. If you free all these animals,
> humans would never learn deeply about animals and
> overall animals would then be far worse off.

On that logic, would you say the enslaved humans in the past were ambassadors for their race/religions etc? :|

The idea of having to teach empathy makes me quite sad. I'd like to think it was an instinct for most people by now.

Good points, bluespixie. What's really weird is that (IMO) they seem to resent empathy in others.

bluespixie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> brome Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The enslaved animals are
> > ambassadors for the animal world, teaching
> humans
> > about how beautiful they are both physically
> and
> > spiritually. If you free all these animals,
> > humans would never learn deeply about animals
> and
> > overall animals would then be far worse off.
>
> On that logic, would you say the enslaved humans
> in the past were ambassadors for their
> race/religions etc? :|
>
> The idea of having to teach empathy makes me quite
> sad. I'd like to think it was an instinct for most
> people by now.

Brome that was an amazing post, very intelligent.

I am sure in our past lives we were killed on accident- by other people. Many times.

Who are we without our thoughts, are we not like the butterfly? The moth, the ugly duck who is ugly and fat and sleeps a deep sleep and awakens to be a peacock.
Have we not all died a horrible deaths. By animals killing us too?
So we spend our life not hurting any animals lest they become upset, we all are vegetarians and we even ban the killing of other animals by other animals so we have to feed the wild lions carrot burgers.

Man has a dark side. The myth of the fallen angels. Thats called free will. You cannot stop mans free will. If you can do it, man will. Animal man has to dibble dabble in eating small animals for survival. But Alien ET HYBRID future human may just get to pop pills for dinner! So maybe that is where we are headed.

Ancient Egypt made it a death sentence to kill a cat. You could always do that, but that is a law by force, and is a man's life worth that of a cat's to us? Is it worth it to watch a man die? How do you make a vegan world?

I think just by what we are doing FREE WILL> Leading by example. Positive behavior.

All that energy you are freeing up in the body, if you dont have someone to mate with, you may get all tangled up emotionally. SO be careful, and express your raw love energies creatively, hopefully in lovemaking.

BLUESPIXIE IT IS AN INSTINCT IN ME





Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 06/18/2015 02:43AM by suvine.

I'm gonna be straight with you...I have no idea what the hell you're talking about!



suvine Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Brome that was an amazing post, very intelligent.
>
> I am sure in our past lives we were killed on
> accident- by other people. Many times.
>
> Who are we without our thoughts, are we not like
> the butterfly? The moth, the ugly duck who is ugly
> and fat and sleeps a deep sleep and awakens to be
> a peacock.
> Have we not all died a horrible deaths. By animals
> killing us too?
> So we spend our life not hurting any animals lest
> they become upset, we all are vegetarians and we
> even ban the killing of other animals by other
> animals so we have to feed the wild lions carrot
> burgers.
>
> Man has a dark side. The myth of the fallen
> angels. Thats called free will. You cannot stop
> mans free will. If you can do it, man will. Animal
> man has to dibble dabble in eating small animals
> for survival. But Alien ET HYBRID future human may
> just get to pop pills for dinner! So maybe that is
> where we are headed.
>
> Ancient Egypt made it a death sentence to kill a
> cat. You could always do that, but that is a law
> by force, and is a man's life worth that of a
> cat's to us? Is it worth it to watch a man die?
> How do you make a vegan world?
>
> I think just by what we are doing FREE WILL>
> Leading by example. Positive behavior.
>
> All that energy you are freeing up in the body, if
> you dont have someone to mate with, you may get
> all tangled up emotionally. SO be careful, and
> express your raw love energies creatively,
> hopefully in lovemaking.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/18/2015 02:53AM by HH.

When contemplating difficult topics it's always good to have some great music and pictures:

Sean and Sara Watkins play "You and Me" on a Colorado mountain gondola.

[www.youtube.com]


Monarch Butterflys on Red Milkweed, their favorite for both the caterpillar and the butterfly.

brome Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When contemplating difficult topics it's always
> good to have some great music and pictures:
>


Yes, and it's also good to have some great seeds from "Save Our Monarchs" to plant while doing so ...

[www.saveourmonarchs.org]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/18/2015 06:12PM by SueZ.

That milkweed thing
is actually useful
since I'm building
a habitat on my
property. Thanks.

Almost forgot. Prana
asked me to ID myself
(as if it isn't obvious)
as HH lest a member
of the peanut gallery
feels deceived and
potentially
butt-hurt.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/18/2015 07:16PM by HeavyHitter.

HeavyHitter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------


> Almost forgot. Prana
> asked me to ID myself
> (as if it isn't obvious)
> as HH lest a member
> of the peanut gallery
> feels deceived and
> potentially
> butt-hurt.

Prana was maybe thinking more along the lines of being embarrassed for you than butt-hurt by your puffed up hubris.

Why do I read your comments
in HelloRodney's voice?


SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HeavyHitter Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
>
> > Almost forgot. Prana
> > asked me to ID myself
> > (as if it isn't obvious)
> > as HH lest a member
> > of the peanut gallery
> > feels deceived and
> > potentially
> > butt-hurt.
>
> Prana was maybe thinking more along the lines of
> being embarrassed for you than butt-hurt by your
> puffed up hubris.

HeavyHitter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why do I read your comments
> in HelloRodney's voice?

Because you want readers to associate me with Hellorodney and that's how you do it.

Why would I want readers
to associate you with HelloRodney?
Why would I care? What I meant
to imply is that you and
Rodney, the grand artiste,
have similar world views.

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HeavyHitter Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Why do I read your comments
> > in HelloRodney's voice?
>
> Because you want readers to associate me with
> Hellorodney and that's how you do it.

HeavyHitter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

What I meant
> to imply is that you and
> Rodney, the grand artiste,
> have similar world views.

Only in your head do hellorodney and I have similar world views. You're just making things up and you know it.

LOL. If you don't have
similar world views,
why do you post his videos?
He, IN MY OPINION,
is basically speaking for you.


SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HeavyHitter Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> What I meant
> > to imply is that you and
> > Rodney, the grand artiste,
> > have similar world views.
>
> Only in your head do hellorodney and I have
> similar world views. You're just making things up
> and you know it.

HeavyHitter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> He, IN MY OPINION,
> is basically speaking for you.

Your opinion on my world views is less than worthless, in my opinion. I agree with HelloRodney's opinions on a few bat @#$%& crazy rabid vegan activists - hardly a world view.

No, you share more
than that.

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HeavyHitter Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > He, IN MY OPINION,
> > is basically speaking for you.
>
> Your opinion on my world views is less than
> worthless, in my opinion. I agree with
> HelloRodney's opinions on a few bat @#$%& crazy
> rabid vegan activists - hardly a world view.

brome

super deliriously surreal photo
wings..colors leaping off the pages
did you take that photo?

funny thing is, that name "brome" sounds familiar

but why?

wasn't there another person that used to be here named brome as well?

maybe i'm just mixing two people up or are you the same "brome"

seems like the "other" brome also took photos

then disappeared..or something

now reappeared

i don't know...

maybe i'm just feeling delirious

not much sleep


did you ever take a photo of something that looked like an icy fjord

or glacier? blueish.. white...

or was it also an aurora borealis?



distant recall

but not sure

just seem to remember something like that

Hi la_veronique,

No just one brome. I found all the pictures on the web - most from Astronomy Picture of the Day, [apod.nasa.gov] - a good picture every day. I just googled beautiful butterflies to find the monarchs:

[www.google.com]

some videos of auroras:

[apod.nasa.gov]