just want to thank you for your post. i am very suspicious of the b12 supplements,something does not seem right to me.and my body does not feel right when i take them .NO WONDER!!! i read all the posts /arguments on this thread,guess i'll just trust my body and know this article is right. also,people often do not consider they may be deficcient in some other way,not b12.

Cows also have two stomachs. Apparently the bacteria from one of the stomachs can make B12 from cobalt compounds found in the ground.

Wow, greeat long read for Me as i will try to catch up with all,
What i know from My studies on human health, parasitology.. provides me with every possible proof, and confirmation of my dietary choices.

About 600 microbes(bacteria, funghis...) exist in human environment, about 150 of them ARE Deadly and cause a various illness related symptoms.

As many people are afraid of bacteria: In general it is a part of our daily life, and we all should concentrate on doing best as we can to keep hygienic environment, and not to digest parasites/ excessive amounts of bacteria with our food.. with everything else.. our body takes care of it.

Important: our internal bacterial flora id very delicate, and only improper rotting food inside of us keeps it from REBUILDING.

Some people make lots of money selling supplements for rebuilding microflora in us, telling even than it takes 6 years to rebuild it..
which IS true for "meat eater" using "other supplements"..

On that scale there is Water fastening. It is THE FASTEST, SAFEST and CHEAPEST way to rebuild our internal microflora.
BEST in short

I DO TO. I do not deny NEED OR FUNCTION of b12 Vitamin. I Simply advocate/ support view, that makes most sense, and had been checked through thousands of years.
And try to provide every and all facts that support and confirm that view that proved to be true in my life.

While being cautionous and advising choice of experienced doctor over "doctor" to watch over our health.. versus curing it Constantly..

..as far as 20 years..
I have followed through from deficiencies that develop after 3 days , to claims stating that in 8 months from not eating meat: "following" may develop...
NOT finding a SINGLE Claim to be TRUE.

I believe by the time i get to see the 20 year claim somebody may say: ONLY AFTER 30, 40 years You do develop(....) such and such..
it is a way of marketing, and selling "health" in a bottle, Yet: There are doctors, and people EVERY DAY proving wrong RDA Values, as well as "Doctors" claims, so does Dr Vetrano.

..One important question..:
Are YOU Fear driven or Faith..?

Free, Open source.Healthy
F.E.A.R. is
an acronym that stands for, False Evidence Appearing Real
F.A.I.T.H. - the First Attribute IN Thoughtful
Health

I am curious about something ....

I get a B12 shot from my naturopath when he recommends it.

How does a shot (usually about once a year in my case) compare with taking supplements - would that make it more available or not - or about the same. It seems to me that my naturopath has referred to it as a "B-12 cocktail", which I think means that there are also some of the other B Vitamins included as well.

I don't know if a shot would be a good thing for everyone, or just someone with a compromised immune system. It is definately more cost-effective - he charges me about $10. (compared to taking supplements all year round). I hate needles, but not as much as I hate pills.

What do you think?

>On that scale there is Water fastening. It is THE FASTEST, SAFEST and CHEAPEST way to rebuild our internal microflora.
BEST in short

Please provide some real scientific proof for this. Natural hygiene religious beliefs are unscientific and don't count. Water fasting starves the internal microflora and can disrupt the flora. Why is that good?

In case it has not been noticed, science does not claim that veganism causes B12 deficiency.

Gosia


RawGosia channel
RawGosia streams

Here's an old post by a previous member of this board, Robert Rust. Its a bit long, but it demonstrates the politics and various tools used to promote the B-12 fear in the community. It also demonstrates that the "science" used to test and measure B-12 is quite questionable.

--------------------------
"VITAMIN B12: ACHILLES' HEEL OF VEGANISM?
by Robert Rust

Since our nutrients that we use normally come in complete packages, and our bodies require them in that form, it is the case that nutritional deficiencies never occur alone. B12 is part of the B-vitamin complex, and is found wherever those vitamins are found. Our bodies have low needs for b12. Our stomach secretes Intrinsic Factor which is required to join with b12 for absorption purposes lower down in the intestines where it is normally produced by bacteria in our guts. When we are not entirely healthy and our stomach’s function is compromised we may have troubles creating enough Intrinsic Factor (IF) for b12 absorption. Acids in the stomach can inhibit the secretion of IF as well. Of course, IF is also dependent on other substances produced within the body, and if these are lacking, then it may show up as a b12 problem as well.

The solution, of course, is to resolve the underlying habits that give rise to the metabolism problems that predispose oneself to the symptoms supposedly associated with b12 lack. To correctly diagnose oneself as b12 deficient, one would have to test our systems for their abilities to properly digest, absorb, and assimilate b12, and we would have to determine and eliminate as possibilities all those other shortages and bodily conditions that predispose a person to not being able to use b12 within themselves. Very few people in the country bother to do this, yet they are quick to agree that they have b12 deficiencies if it so suits them.

By and large, a person who goes onto a raw food diet will often experience many difficult changes in their body, many of which are aggravated by the continuance in such simple bad habits as overeating, eating frozen foods, eating spices, miscombining foods, drinking stimulative substances such as coffee and teas and alcohol from time to time, eating too many dried foods, binging, and many others. On top of this, the body will have difficulties obtaining enough nutrients at first from raw foods due to the low concentration of nutrients in raw foods and the protective membranes the body has built up in various locations of the body (such as in the intestines, stomach, blood vessels) that were necessary when the person ate predominantly of over-rich and concentrated cooked foods, with all their high levels of toxic matter. It takes time for a body to reassert normalcy of function.

In going raw, many people have to acknowledge this compromised state of their bodies by eating a transition diet that does not so drastically change the conditions under which their body has adapted itself to get its needed nutrients from the food it is given. So some people will still eat a bit of meat from time to time, others will continue eating some cooked starches, others steamed veggies. Over time, as these people slowly improve their overall health, and as they persevere in steadily improving their diet, they will find that they can free themselves from all poor eating habits, which includes the eating of meat and dairy. It is the case that meat eaters are the main ones diagnosed as having b12 "deficiencies". B12 is needed in only extremely low doses by the body, measured in less than micrograms, and it’s very easy for us to store reserves that can last us for years.

It is not at all obvious from your descriptions of what you were doing that b12 was your problem. There are so many things to consider, some of which I already mentioned above, and more of which include the amount of time one has been raw, how much one follows other healthy habits in their life (such as getting adequate sleep, sunshine, fresh air, water, etc), how many years one has eaten a cooked food diet, the predominance of various types of foods in their former diet, what other types of supplements one takes, what types of drugs one takes if they do, the type of other ingredients that are in supplements containing b12, the amount of exercise one gets, and many more. Sometimes it just takes a little perseverance to allow a body to get over a certain stage of adjustment, and the problems sort themselves out on their own. This may or not be the case with you.

As is always the case, it is sometimes best to proceed cautiously, while ever slowly striving for improvement and this, as others suggested, may be the best thing for you in terms of your diet. I would not be in any great rush to blame your symptoms on a b12 deficiency when it has not yet been adequately shown that other factors were not responsible for your problems. To do so would be to lay blame where it is not due, which leads to misleading conclusions about causes symptoms. It is only wise to conclude that something is true, such as b12 deficiency, when all other factors have been considered and eliminated as causes.

There are innumerable substances that have not yet been isolated in foods due to their low concentrations in foods, especially raw foods, and to the difficulty in developing techniques to isolate them. There are no doubt many substances in our foods that our bodies have very little need for, even less need than for b12, and so these substances will undoubtedly occur in minute quantities in our foods and in our selves. There have been no tests conducted to determine the effects of so-called deficiencies of these substances and how the levels of these unknown substances relate to the b12 and other nutrient issues.

For this reason and the others addressed, plus others that I haven't discussed here, it is wiser to say, if one has not properly addressed all the considerations that would allow a true determination of b12 deficiency, that one DOES NOT KNOW the true or complete reason for their symptoms, symptoms which may or may not be consistent with a true vitamin b12 deficiency (if that can be determined), instead of just assuming they are correct in concluding it was a b12 issue.

In reply, in general, to testing for b12 and other substances, I offer the following observations, and possible conclusions.

The current tests that are supposed to establish b12 deficiency are incapable of establishing b12 deficiency because the tests are not conducted in a wholly scientific manner. Of all the common and popular b12 tests that are currently used, there is not one that can fully and truly establish, on its own or in its conjunction with other popular tests, the presence of a b12 deficiency. Specifically, these tests are often for substances that can't (such as certain b12 analogues), or that can't be used on their own (any b12 substance), to establish a b12 deficiency. Thusly, if one uses the tests to determine whether they have a b12 deficiency, they will be making a mistake.

To determine whether a person has a b12 deficiency, a scientific experiment would have to be designed. This experiment would necessarily have to include a series of tests consisting of many different types of tests carried out over a period of time, such as a week or a month, and the results would have to be exposed to critical scrutiny or cross-examination to be sure the entire experiment and its actual result was: 1. really capable of indicating a b12 deficiency at all, and 2. whether, if it could do this, could it do it in any one particular individual with all his/her unique habits, indulgences, and predispositions.

Of the commonly used tests for b12 deficiency that are currently used by the medical belief system and other delusional and self-promoting interests, none are capable of showing clearly and undoubtedly that the person given the test has a b12 deficiency. The tests used are individual tests, not groups of tests, and are not carried out over periods of time. The tests only test for one particular item that the users of the test BELIEVE might indicate a b12 deficiency. These tests are then sold to us by their unscientific promoters as TRULY indicating a b12 deficiency, and as scientific (just because they were using a test), when in reality the tests are not scientific (they do not follow well-established rules and procedures of scientific discovery).

People who commonly use these tests do not understand the scientific process. Subsequently, most, if not all, everyday people, including even a large majority of so-called scientific experts, are not capable of determining what a scientific process is or how it is that only a correct scientific process, (which includes as ONE part of it a series of various time-based well-run tests), could establish any idea as true, such as a vitamin b12 deficiency causing someone’s symptoms. Thusly, these people are EASILY lead into making false assumptions and drawing false conclusions and thereby blaming something that was not conclusively shown to be the cause of their problem. This means, that in the b12 case, if they decided to blame b12 and then use b12 supplements, they will have just been "conned" (con being the abbreviation of confidence) into paying a con-artist ( a con-artist is someone who displays a talent at using fear, uncertainty, conniving, persuasion, common gullibility of people, doubt, confusion, illusion, deceit, speciousness, charisma, pomp, and other tools of the advertising industry to convince others that the con-artists unsubstantiated BELIEFS are meritorious or valid) some money for a dubious product that more than likely just adds to the person’s overall problems, particularly in the long term.

To make recommendations to others, based on the results of misunderstood, inaccurate, and thereby misleading b12 "tests", is pure foolishness. The tests are founded in neglect of the wholeness on which life is based. As a consequence, they will have little or no meaning in the search for wholeness, or health. One might as well as recommend that a person consult a crystal ball gazer, and based on the ball gazer's wisdumb, assume that they have a b12 deficiency and therefore take b12 supplements. Even if the b12 user claims health improvement (as much as improvement is often a subjective term), this still does not mean the b12 supplement was really needed or that the person had a b12 deficiency.

An alcoholic could test himself by taking a supplement of alcohol pills, feel positively better as a result, and then claim it was because of an alcohol deficiency that he felt such terrible symptoms after a day of not drinking, due to the "positive" results of his "test". As we can see, this is not a scientific-based test. Many, many more tests, of huge variety, taken over a period of time, and which would be given great scrutiny, would be needed to be conducted by the biased alcoholic to understand how alcohol played a roll in his problems, and so on, in order to substantiate any claim that his original problems were legitimately due to an alcohol "deficiency". Of course, a person who is grounded in correct principles in physiology can easily conclude alcohol is a source of the original problem; however, it is SADLY the case, that in regards to vitamin b12, practically NO ONE is well grounded enough in physiology or biology to be able to make any conclusions about the b12 issue other than that the issue of b12 is a mystery to them. People who use mysteries to determine their actions are behaving VERY foolishly.

A person who makes conclusions and follows them up with recommendations is wise to choose from sources of information or knowledge that are rational, sensible, accurate, and truthful. Current b-12 tests are inadequate in scope and concept and thereby do not reveal themselves as adequate sources; as such, one can only conclude and recommend that b12 testing be ignored by less than deeply and truthfully informed scientifically conscious health seekers.

Any "test" for b12 deficiency MUST ADDRESS and RESOLVE the following important issues, among others:

1. what TYPE or TYPES {TYPES(S)}, of the various types of b12, is used or are used by the body?
2. Is the particular body under investigation able to DIGEST the TYPE(S) of b12?
3. Is the particular body under investigation able to ABSORB through the various digestive, protective, and other cellular membranes of the body, these TYPE(S) of b12?
4. Is the particular body under investigation able to ASSIMILATE in its cells (ie, use in its chemical processes) these TYPE(S) of b12?
5. What TYPE(S) of b12 are in the person's blood stream, urine, lymph, and other tissues and are these TYPE(S) being excreted as normal wastes or are they actually being used beneficially?
6. Are excreted b12 TYPE(S) indicative of the wrongful nature of the b12 TYPE(S) or of the body's inability to USE the b12 TYPE(S), if these TYPE(S) have been determined to be USEABLE TYPE(S)?
7. What are the normal LEVELS (or quantities and concentrations) of ALL b12 TYPES in a truly HEALTHY person?
8. What is the normal RANGE (or VARIANCE) of ALL b12 levels in a truly HEALTHY person from hour to hour, day to day, week to week?
9. What are all the OTHER NUTRIENTS that are needed to work in conjunction with the correct types of b12 in order for them to be used?
10. What are the normal LEVELS and RANGES of other nutrients in the body that are required for correct b12 metabolism?
11. How does Wholeness, Ripeness, Fullness, Completeness of Food forms affect digestion, absorption, and assimilation of b12 in the body?
12. What SUBSTANCES, especially commonly eaten or absorbed substances, INTERFERE with, OVERBURDEN, or otherwise COMPROMISE, or the body's b12 metabolism.
13. What other common or less common PRACTICES or ACTIVITIES interfere with, overburden, or otherwise compromise a body's b12 metabolism?
14. IF b12 deficiency can be established in a human, what are the SYMPTOMS that are SPECIFIC to and ONLY specific to this deficiency?
15. IF b12 deficiency can be established in a human, what are the SYMPTOMS that are GENERAL to this deficiency (meaning what OTHER deficiencies or problems share these general symptoms)?

Endless other questions could be posed, yet even from the short list above one can deduce that it is terribly difficult to establish what a b12 deficiency is or how it comes to be, let alone what its symptoms are. This complicated process would involve subjective and objective factors in each individual case, as the testing system, assuming it was truly accurate in all cases, was applied to the individual. The testing system itself would be difficult to establish as giving anything other than probabilities, due the infinite complexity of the human body and the added dimensions of the infinite external activities and influences that can affect the human body. Many, many, many tests and a whole lot of subjective analysis would be required. And the end result would only be a probability. No one would know for sure, even after all that effort. For instance, there could be other elements, as yet undiscovered by science, missing from the person's body or diet that contribute to the problems.

If b12 is missing from a diet, the only truthful, irrefutable, and logical conclusion that can be made is that the diet and other lifestyle factors are not whole. In regards to diet, our bodies are whole organisms that require food in its whole form so that they can get wholy what they need from foods. That is, we need to get not just ALL the parts that make up our natural foods, but to be completely healthy for the long term, we need to get ALL those parts ALL TOGETHER at once, WHOLY TOGETHER, in WHOLE form, FULLY and NATURALLY BALANCED, so that WE ourselves may remain that way as we bring the food into us. As Nature doesn't provide us with b12 trees, vitamin A bunnies, protein popsicles, glucose bushes, magnesium plants, or tri-glyceride turnips, we don't need to pursue individual elements, and its unwise and harmful to do so. Pursuing b12 from a testing perspective is pursuing health from an unwhole perspective and can only lead to unwholeness in the long run.

The b12 tests of today are predominantly all SINGLE tests of ONE simple little aspect of just ONE of the questions asked above. These tests are thus COMPLETELY unscientific and are absolutely INCAPABLE of allowing anyone to make any kind of judgment on whether the person subjected to the test is b12 deficient or not. The tests, whether one or two together, have just as much, and probably MORE, ability in determining whether SANTA CLAUS exists or not. The individual tests are inherently useless as anything other than a part of a complete and proper scientific investigation, which in itself would be necessarily incomplete because not all known nutrients have been discovered yet. As individual or even combined tests, they can only be used by profit motivated con-artists to manipulate the actions of a fear-based, misinformed, gullible, and therefore highly susceptible public.

It is astute to note that ALL supplement programs must address similar questions as posed above, and since they, like the b12 tests, DO NOT, their unscientific and false natures are demonstrated as clearly as the FALSE nature of the common b12 testing programs used to determine b12 deficiency.

Our current economic system is largely driven by the commercial prostitutionalizaton of science. The scientific process has been misused and abused by self-interested parties seeking to gain personal fortunes instead of truth. Truth has been waylaid, and that is why those parties that push illogical testing programs and supplements in general are always opposed to complete scientific inquiry. They make extra-ordinary claims that can't be backed up by truthful science, and when those that are more truth-motivated complain, these pill pushers and test touters, instead of opening their claims up to scientific ( rational, unbiased, critical, orderly, well documented and supported) inspection, proceed to create SPIN by accusing their "attackers" of being ignorant, unwhole in approach, "scientific", and so on.

It is truly amazing what the impostors of truth do. In their condemnable practice, they use small elements of the scientific process, such as individual or combined "tests" here and there, in order to pass their pursuits onto the unknowing and gullible public as "scientific" procedures and unjustifiably claim the legitimacy that comes with all respected truly scientific endeavor. But when true scientific investigation comes knocking and reveals the wide open holes in their foolish claims, they choose to accuse their "attackers" of "denying" science or nature, or they claim that "science" doesn't know everything, etc., etc.

By their reckoning, then, one can only assume that ONLY these profit-motivated and self-interested persons, who most apparently have no regard for rational and critical inspection, ARE the ones who DO know everything. All WE have to do is take THEIR word for it. Suspiciously, their gains are immediate, often financial, while our (dubious) gain "will be coming in the future" as the spinners unerringly point out. That's what the spin process comes down to. Deception for the purposes of their immediate gain, and our immediate loss of money, with interest to be paid in the future via loss of health, freedom, more money, and more gullible mindlessness.

Again, when the error of the spinner's ways is pointed out, instead of answering all the questions and providing sensible explanations, they throw accusations, insinuations, guilt trips, fear traps, and other verbal abuse into the face of the inquirer. They NEVER answer the full line of questions that would provide for rational conclusions. Of course, rational conclusions would end their profit making and other self-serving industries, and so we recognize their game. They are not truth seekers. If they were truth seekers, they would have nothing to lose but all to gain --- the TRUTH. The truth is the most beautiful intellectual delight in the world, for it benefits most maximally not only the seeker, but ALL fellow beings and other lifeforms on the planet, and the planet itself, and for that reason all truth-seekers look first for truth before they look for personal profit. This distinguishes them from those that seek first personal benefit before truthful exposition, such as confidence men, sworn believers, and other self-interested parties.

Tests induce fear when they are handled unwisely. Fear leads to irrational behaviors, one of which is to follow expert "scientific" testers who by using the tests they promote admit they don't have a fundamental understanding of wholeness, or health. A person who has great fears of being b12 deficient, to assuage their fears, has many cheap options to choose beyond taking dubious expensive supplements or tests, as listed in my previous posts. One can even go to the extreme of eating meat or dairy. At least its natural. Whole foods are best.

To make conclusions on what a simple test says is to make conclusions on what Santa said. How about making conclusions from what we already know to be true and from what makes darn good sense. And then how about following practices that are harmonious with what nature used to get us and all the other millions of species here in the first place. Surely we can conclude that it was pretty good what she did and we don't have to meddle around with her. Let's use our brains to recognize the accord of nature, instead of using our brains to falsely believe nature got it wrong. After all, we are a part of nature. Nature wouldn't provide us (itself) a brain to use against itself. We have a brain because it was useful for us, so let’s continue to use it useful, in accord with nature. Just because there are a lot of people using their brain against themselves doesn't mean that it is correct or good to do that. We can still all use our brains in a sensible, life-inspiring, and successful manner, of which nature is all about.

Let's use our brains to think sensible and rational thoughts consistent WITH nature, instead of AGAINST nature, and let's practice doing this in order to create HABITUAL RATIONAL THINKING, so that we create a habitual rational thought process, or MIND, that consistently operates in a manner truly the best for us and that properly represents us and, so, in thus doing, will unerringly lead us back to realize, understand, and thus CONNECT with who we REALLY are --- NATURE!--- and thereby FEEL ourselves as we REALLY are---- NATURAL!"

longtimeraw:
If only Science is to be taken under consideration.. THAN:
1. ANYTHING Ingested, food or drink IS A POISON to OUR BODY.
It IS a FACT. ANYTHING that one swallows MUST BE Sterilized by our stomach, and "melted down" into such a small pieces, that can be "sucked" in by our body.
On each step during that process, there are enzymes, bacteria being "utilized".
EVEN STERILE WATER IS a foreign substance to our body.. unless it will be sucked in, and "converted" into our bodyli fluids.

NOW. In order to rebuild /create environment at which digestive processes take least time, create least toxic waste(gases, acid) we HAVE to have RIGHT kind of bacteria(microflora). We have a choice to either induce Foreign bacteria, or food that we have to use energy to sterilize it, and fight with any funghus, bacteria, parasites found in (fruit, milk, meat) Prolonging growth of proper flora, possibly mutating, and creating TOXIC Flora, that will CONTINUOSLY POISON OURSELFS.

OR:

STOP inducing foreign "objects"(bacteria, parasites...) And ALLOW for body to remove EVERYTHING(that can be) from intestines allowing for removal ALL bacteria initially. Human have certain LIMITED Amount of enzymes that the older we get, the less we have of them."THEY" ARE Responsible for aging process.. or process of not being able to quickly enough rebuilds our cells: allowing for more and more of them to be kept "dead", or not functioning in the healthy way: being SICK.

During Fasting on water Body is allowed WITHOUT ANY Interruption to perform its ONLY TRUE FUNCTION: Continuos rebuilding of any and ALL Damaged, or even 70% efficient cells. Keeping body AT ITS PEAK! WHEN A L L O W E D. :read: stopped being poisoned at a rate that disables recovery.

With age it becomes impossible as we have less enzymes, and more bacteria, and fungus inside of us, we move less, so our body cannot remove and rebuild as quickly as at the young age causing MORE of bacteria to grow on dead cells.

After foreign bacteria had ben removed, a little amount of our enzymes create environment inside of us for GOOD microflora to start growing,
Therefore it is crucial to eat the kind of food that will be our main diet as the FIRST THING AFTER FASTENING.
That STARTS to create proper flora, as in different part of body different acidity is being maintained and specific function performed.


Sapphire:,
Let's ALL Consider for a second WHAT IF:
What if following is a truth: Science on current level CANNOT Accurately measure ALL pieces that are necessary to maintain perfect health,
NATURE DOES.

If vegan babies do not have a so cold "B12" "stored" in a liver..
Grown human "Stores" B12 in Liver and Muscles..
What if substance being disputed and measured is a NON FUNCTIONAL and, or possibly TOXIC form of vitamin B12, or rather, what we call and of which lack, causes several symptoms.

Because our body KNOWS MORE than science, or WE.., it "removes" toxic substance(bacteria, parasite form) to a "SAFE PLACE" .. to be discarded at a later time, since removing a large quantities of "B12" would poison us.. It is being discarded for... 20 years...

If symptoms od B12 deficiency ARE BEING REMOVED WITHOUT supplementation od B12 Than POSSIBLY B12 IS...

IF... But proofs ARE there... in front of us.

Gosia: good point, quite suprising, BUT.. it gives hope, that maybe on some level Science IS Science, and not money driven machine to push what one see fit..

Free, Open source.Healthy
F.E.A.R. is
an acronym that stands for, False Evidence Appearing Real
F.A.I.T.H. - the First Attribute IN Thoughtful
Health

Let the record reveal that Bryan's post cites no scientific references and is content-free. Just more natural hygiene religious mumbo-jumbo. Bryan's article has a list of question in it:

>Any "test" for b12 deficiency MUST ADDRESS and RESOLVE the following important issues, among others:

which only serve to highlight the amazing ignorance of the author of that text. Read the literature, folks - the data is out there.

Witharianin's reply is barely coherent, full of false assumptions and misinformation.

Witarian said:

"During Fasting on water Body is allowed WITHOUT ANY Interruption to perform its ONLY TRUE FUNCTION: Continuos rebuilding of any and ALL Damaged, or even 70% efficient cells".

This rings true to me. Changing to a raw high fruit is kind of like a slow fast compared to the SAD diet. Why else would I be feeling so much better?

longtimeraw, instead of making useless disparaging remarks, provide some substance. So far, I have not seen any in your posts. Give us a proof of some claim.

Gosia


RawGosia channel
RawGosia streams

>longtimeraw, instead of making useless disparaging remarks, provide some substance. So far, I have not seen any in your posts. Give us a proof of some claim.

Carl Sagan is credited with the wise statement:

"Unusual claims require unusual proof."

Your side of the discussion is the one making claims. I challenge the claims, as they are unusual or extraordinary.

On the other hand, you are following common rawist malpractice, and demanding that I actively disprove unusual claims for which no valid proof has been provided. Your side has no real proof, other than self-experience which is highly variable.

hear hear. i'm not finding your remarks particularly useless, quite the opposite in fact. lots of noobs come here looking for answers and get a bunch of rhetoric presented as fact. too bad.

Incorrect longtimeraw. Provide a proof that veganism causes B12 deficiency for starters. I do not really ask for this, because I know that there isn't one. But prove me wrong, if you can.

Gosia


RawGosia channel
RawGosia streams

SAPPHIRE, I would make sure that the B12 shots you are getting are in a coenzyme form B12 such as methylcobalamin as opposed to denatured forms such as cyanocobalamin and hydroxocobalamin. Cyanoconalamin is usually flushed out of the body and hydroxocobalamin binds to cyanide in the body to form cyanocobalamin.

By the way, claim that B12 is available in animal sources only has been disproved. Besides a paper cited on another thread mentioning that bananas contained b12, see also:


J Nutr Sci Vitaminol (Tokyo). 2004 Dec;50(6):438-40.
Occurrence of vitamin B12 in green, blue, red, and black tea leaves.

* Kittaka-Katsura H,
* Watanabe F,
* Nakano Y.

Department of Food and Nutrition, Kyoto Women's Untiversity, Kyoto 605-8501, Japan. kittaka@kyoto-wu.ac.jp

Vitamin B12 contents of green (0.046-0.263 and 0.125-0.535 microg/100 g dry weight), blue (0.068-0.081 and 0.525-0.528 microg/l00 g dry weight), red (0.061 and 0.663 microg/100 g dry weight), and black (0.104-0.859 and 0.305-1.20 microg/100 dry weight) tea leaves were obtained by intrinsic factor-chemiluminescence and microbiological methods, respectively. Although vitamin B12 was found in all tea leaves tested by both assay methods, the higher values by the microbiological method were not due to occurrence of both deoxyribosides and deoxynucleotides (known as an alkali-resistant factor), but may have been due to that of inactive corrinoid compounds for mammals in the tea leaves.


Research takes time. The mechanism how Vitamin B-12 works in our body is still not known (Toohey JI
Vitamin B-12 and methionine synthesis: A critical review. Is nature's most beautiful cofactor(*) misunderstood?
BIOFACTORS 26 (1): 45-57 2006). A lot more is not known than that. Citing currently published references as a proof of a claim about b12 deficiency in raw vegans is not understanding what a proof is.

Gosia


RawGosia channel
RawGosia streams

VEGAN LIFE:

Thank you so much for the information. I have printed it out, and plan to take it to my next appointment with my naturopath.

I probably won't see him now until I am due for my Biological Terrain Assessment in March - hopefully it will show that my improved eating and exercise habits are making some improvements in my health. I don't always manage to stay totally raw, or even totally vegan, but I never give up over a little slip once in a while.

It has now been four years since I was diagnosed with cancer. I don't know how well I have done in reversing the damage of all the surgeries, chemotherapy and radiation (which in themselves took nearly a year to complete), but they only gave me a 50/50 chance of 5 year survival. I'd love to walk into my doctor's office on that day, not only alive and well, but looking so great that I should be on the cover of a health magazine or something, haha!! I sure appreciate all the good information on this forum - I have learned so much!

Sapphire