[www.youtube.com]

so here is a vid by Dan Life Regenerator

so he says to blend the coconut water plus meat etc.
then add probiotics

let sit at room temp for a few hours
then put in fridge for a few days

he talks about that after around 5 minutes

my question is this:

why put it in the fridge to have the bacteria proliferate
why not just keep it out at room temperature

wouldn't that accelerate the proliferation?

anyone here a ferment expert?

give me holler

"why put it in the fridge to have the bacteria proliferate
why not just keep it out at room temperature"

I'll try to make myself watch the video later but for now I'd say - he's probably trying to purposely slow down the process due to too much hot air being in his room ...

la_veronique Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> [www.youtube.com]
>
> so here is a vid by Dan Life Regenerator
>
> so he says to blend the coconut water plus meat
> etc.
> then add probiotics
>
> let sit at room temp for a few hours
> then put in fridge for a few days
>
> he talks about that after around 5 minutes
>
> my question is this:
>
> why put it in the fridge to have the bacteria
> proliferate
> why not just keep it out at room temperature
>
> wouldn't that accelerate the proliferation?
>
> anyone here a ferment expert?
>
> give me holler


I find the Lou way makes the worst ferments that taste bad + a dubious way overall.

Grinding food through a slow turning mincer and fermenting at room temperiture is good, or fermenting food whole for a couple of days and then blending at the last minute improves the taste, but this blending and placing in the fridge is a lost cause imo for both taste and quality. I have gone over the various reasons why l say these things before and haven't got time until next week to explain it again.

The way Lou and Dan ferment things is at the very lowest level imo, and l recommend against their lazy methods. If one does blend the food must be preserved immediately instead of waiting for hours for the probiotics to take effect.

Remember also, a slow turning mincer will always be better than a blender to ferment food.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/13/2015 02:37AM by The Sproutarian Man.

Dan is right....

_ those ferments are healing and nourishing for the body and builds it back up like no other foods can. It's advantage over fruit is that it contains probiotics instead of prebiotics and is more nourishing for building up sick bodies.
_ yes, they help assimilate food much better
_ using well developed ferments are better than ferments only done for a short time.
_ using a sprouted seed ferment is one of the best ways to nourish the body because of highly bioavailable nutrients and because of high gross nutrition levels. These days the fermented seeds are the no.1 most important thing in my diet and far more essential than greens even, but that is my unique circumstance.

* During winter my sunflower yogurt is fermented for 4 days at room temperiture and the results energise me highly.
* Adding fermented grain water to chia sprouts is also highly energising and feeds the body.

_ Fermenting seeds is taking it to the next level that leaves coconut and nuts in the dust.
_ Slowly grinding sprouted seeds and fermenting in rejuvalic brings it to the highest level imo because minimal oxidation takes place as opposed to blending and the rejuvalic immediately preserves the ground up seeds so no nutrients are lost and could well preserve from oxidation.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/13/2015 02:53AM by The Sproutarian Man.

i have always been under the impression that one shouldn't ferment seeds, or coconuts, etc which have been ground up for more than 6-8 hours. is this not true? how do you know if its gone 'bad' as opposed to fermented?

Tezcal:
how do you know if its gone 'bad' as opposed to fermented?

Tai:
Coconut is totally unique in that it can last a long time in the refrigerator (weeks). The way I make mine stays good for a while. Everything else, including nuts and seeds spoils within a few days or a week MAX after blending.

When you see pink or strange colors on top, then you know it's bad.

Also the longer it stays in the fridge, the more it will ferment (except coconut, if done correctly) and at some point, the sharp sting of the ferment will become too much. YOu will know what your tolerance is. Everyone is different. I like less fermentation. I prefer one day and two days max. However, I bought a vegan cheese book and I am going to try some recipes that take one week to culture in a wine refrigerator (special temperature).

"Remember also, a slow turning mincer will always be better than a blender to ferment food."

This, especially, makes no sense to me at all. I've done a lot of fermenting and can't recall ever hearing, reading, seeing, or experiencing , anything like it before your word on it here - so there's nothing, for any reason, to remember.

TSM - I suggest that you just haven't figured out what you are doing wrong with that recipe that has so troubled you for such a long time. It may simply be that preparing it in the same area where you prepare all your other ferments is tainting it with "volunteer" bacteria, borne of those other of your fermenting activities, and are just indigenous to your very house. I know you are frustrated but don't jump to conclusions if you want to be taken seriously.

SueZ:
I've done a lot of fermenting and can't recall ever hearing, reading, seeing, or experiencing , anything like it before your word on it here - so there's nothing, for any reason, to remember.

Tai:
This goes back to Brian Clement (and staff at Hippocrates) who have frowned on using the blender when trying to heal the body. This was first widely voiced by Max Gerson. TSM's advocacy of a slow mincer is to grind it up while avoiding using a vitamix.

I think TSM's point is valid. However, in practice, Lou's way is the fastest and not everyone has the time to do TSM's way. Lou's way is done in 4 hours (after the first 24 hours of soaking) and can extend up to 2 days after that. The reason Lou blends first is to have the added pure strain of probiotic take effect immediately and have maximum surface area to work on.

TSM's way is a more purist way because it does not require an expensive probiotic. He makes rejuvelac first and uses that. I am assuming that the natural strain is lactobacillus plantarum that is on vegetable matter.

I am happy to have learned of TSM's way and this is in line with Ann Wigmore. But when she made seed cheese, she would have it blended and exposed to air while it was drip drying (correct?), so probably Lou Corona can't see anything wrong with having a blended nut or seed mixture sit in a mason jar on the counter for 4 hours before refrigerating it.

Nevertheless, TSM's point is well taken about maximal nutrient gain.

"Tai:
This goes back to Brian Clement (and staff at Hippocrates) who have frowned on using the blender when trying to heal the body. This was first widely voiced by Max Gerson. TSM's advocacy of a slow mincer is to grind it up while avoiding using a vitamix."

Thanks, Tai, for showing me where this hare brained notion originated. I disagree with wild guess based bacterial strain assumptions and hearsay based views on what is praiseworthy practice in the fermentation process, however.

SueZ
wild guess based bacterial strain assumptions and hearsay based views on what is praiseworthy practice in the fermentation process, however.

Tai:
I tried TSM's rye rejuvelac recipe, and I found it very healing.

I once did have a bad batch, but it's because I didn't properly clean my big heavy German crock beforehand. I use hydrogen peroxide and the hot midday sun (and soap) to kill off bacteria when I clean the crock. I will try anything reasonable.

I once talked to Brian Clement and he said that tests showed that not all strains of rejuvelac are beneficial, in the event if someone sneezes in the kitchen, etc. Some strains are rich in the B vitamins, but others may contain bad bacteria. That is why I use a crock (instead of a screen or cloth over a jar), because it has the water barrier on top where the lid is. I think a crock can minimize unwanted bacterial growth.

But I only use the crock to make rejuvelac. To make seed yogurt, I use mason jars.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/13/2015 07:41PM by Tai.

Personally I have zero interest in promoting, or even ingesting, "rejuvelac" and really don't even consider fermented foods raw. However, since there are so many people who are sick, (in the first place), due to having undiagnosed problems digesting gluten who may be wanting to overcome their illness by trying to cure themselves with "rejuvelac" I'm linking a thread from the Wild Fermentation site which offers some alternative less controversial, and gluten free, grains to experiment with.

[www.wildfermentation.com]

I am gluten sensitive, but I wonder just how much gluten can be in rejuvelac. Gluten is the gluey part. The other aspect is that when sourdough is made, some gluten is broken down. Hence, you would think that the fermentation would break down any significant gluten in the liquid rejuvelac.

Anyway, the reason I did go with rye is because of the high levels of phytase, which is unique to rye.

"I once did have a bad batch, but it's because I didn't properly clean my big heavy German crock beforehand. I use hydrogen peroxide and the hot midday sun (and soap) to kill off bacteria when I clean the crock."

Tai, I'm glad you brought up the subject of crocks. It is very important to make sure that crocks used for fermenting have a glaze that fits the pot properly. Crocks with crazed glaze should not be in contact with food - especially foods left at room temperature to ferment. Some crocks are fine at first but develop crazing in time so all crocks should be periodically checked for crazing.

Tai Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am gluten sensitive, but I wonder just how much
> gluten can be in rejuvelac. Gluten is the gluey
> part. The other aspect is that when sourdough is
> made, some gluten is broken down. Hence, you
> would think that the fermentation would break down
> any significant gluten in the liquid rejuvelac.

It's a crap shoot best avoided, IMO and experience. The reason I went raw in the first place was due to a horrible reaction I had to the newly "invented" oatmeal hailed as safe for people with gluten intolerance - and technically I don't think oats even have THE gluten itself at all. The reaction line can be pretty blurry between all of these grains with any stickiness for some reason.

"I am gluten sensitive, but I wonder just how much gluten can be in rejuvelac."

We probably do not know everything there is to know on the subject and since so many of the symptoms can be delayed, subtle, and hard to track down I just don't think it's a wise area to play in - especially for those who already know they have sensitivities or people who are sick, old, pregnant,or very young. And besides - gluten is not just about sticky it's something that is in the grain's genes in all of their cells.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/13/2015 08:16PM by SueZ.

I think if you have a well fermented liquid and you grind some mature coconut in omega juicer at a slow speed and leave the coconut in the fermented juice for a day, you may get good result.

You do not need to blend or leave it in the fridge

I will try it.

"I think if you have a well fermented liquid and you grind some mature coconut in omega juicer at a slow speed and leave the coconut in the fermented juice for a day, you may get good result."



Now that's another hare brained enough idea. Maybe you don't know that there are reasons Lou's recipe calls for young coconuts (not mature ones) and, preferably, his own branded lipase rich powder to get his "good results". Maybe you don't know that "rejuvalac" can't, and so won't, break down fat and thus be capable of fermenting mature coconuts. Etc.

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> TSM - I suggest that you just haven't figured out
> what you are doing wrong with that recipe that has
> so troubled you for such a long time. It may
> simply be that preparing it in the same area
> where you prepare all your other ferments is
> tainting it with "volunteer" bacteria, borne of
> those other of your fermenting activities, and are
> just indigenous to your very house. I know you are
> frustrated but don't jump to conclusions if you
> want to be taken seriously.


O.k Suez, I tried your methods and instructions numerous times and l found it to be a disaster both in taste and the effects on my body. On two occasions l thought death was a possibility as l sweat and suffer terrible stomach pains unlike little else l have experienced and severe vomiting sickness. I certainly said my prayers on those days.

O.k, what l will do is another experiment. I will use Lou's probiotics and the dubious blending method and see how it goes. Then l will use a slow grinder and use Lou's the probiotics and see how it goes.

Personally l find my way is excellent, and regardless of whether some bad bacteria is present in rejuvalic, it still has many positive healing health qualities that makes it worthwhile for people with o.k heALTH. + the probiotics in probiotic formulaes will never contain as many bacterial families nor as in great synergy as naturally occuring probiotics in properly prepared whole food preparations because science likely hasn't identified all the probiotic bacteria families yet nor in the most beneficial balance, and the science also suggests that natural ferments (done carefully) will always contain broader levels of probiotic strains compared with probiotic formulae, and likely a combination of probiotics where synergy is far superior to any made made formulaes.

For really sick people who can hardly eat l never recommend rejuvalic because l can't risk any bad bacteria challenging their already weak immune system, but for most l suggest the rejuvalic way.

Suez...I will try your way once again using a blender (low level imo) and a slow turning mincer and use Lou's probiotics and report back. Yes, l don't want to give up on this and want to find out what l am doing wrong. All l know is that when l ferment Lou's way it gets wayyy too strong after only one day regardless of whether it is refrigerated. + the entire blending and letting it sit just rubs me up the wrong way too, and l scoff at such dubious ideas because my intuition tells me it is dubious at best (I know Suez, l sound all wishy washy here). I can't use solid science to back up my point on blending, but l can use some science to discourage the Lou method, and l may try to make a reasonable sounding argument against blending ferments another day when time is more spare.

Now, will customs irradiate the probiotics if l import? Maybe l should try and find some quality local formulae.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2015 12:31AM by The Sproutarian Man.

"O.k Suez, I tried your methods and instructions numerous times and l found it to be a disaster both in taste and the effects on my body. On two occasions l thought death was a possibility as l sweat and suffer terrible stomach pains unlike little else l have experienced and severe vomiting sickness. I certainly said my prayers on those days."

I can't remember anything I said that would almost kill you as surely as the apricots once almost surely once killed you. Was it my suggestion to just follow the main ingredients leaving out the fermenters and eating Lou's "coconut yogurt" immediately while it's fresh and tastes the best like I do?

Suez, l will have to get back to this topic later. Just a reminder to myself to explain my solid experiences with why blending produces poorer healing results, and use Brain Clement's numerous HHI experiences to explain why blending doesn't always heal severe cases. What does blended green v's juiced green do?...mention my experience it here, and bring Brian into it to convince Suez it is bad news for severe cases.

Also explain why fermenting and sprouting greatly increases vitamin levels with real increases, and how sprouting combined with fermenting makes a vitamin powerhouse, especially with seeds.

Also talk about (again) about Michael's experiences with watering mature plants with cold BLENDED WATER. Everything died. Hmmm.

www.thesproutarian.com

The Sproutarian Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Suez, l will have to get back to this topic later.
> Just a reminder to myself to explain my solid
> experiences with why blending produces poorer
> healing results, and use Brain Clement's numerous
> HHI experiences to explain why blending doesn't
> always heal severe cases. What does blended green
> v's juiced green do?...mention my experience it
> here, and bring Brian into it to convince Suez it
> is bad news for severe cases.
>
> Also explain why fermenting and sprouting greatly
> increases vitamin levels with real increases, and
> how sprouting combined with fermenting makes a
> vitamin powerhouse, especially with seeds.
>
> Also talk about (again) about Michael's
> experiences with watering mature plants with cold
> BLENDED WATER. Everything died. Hmmm.

Take your time but your notes to yourself here, on what you want to remind yourself to cover, are not anywhere near the pertinent points of interest so far as I'm concerned or can see. I hope you are just reminding yourself of them IN ADDITION to the issues you plan to address concerning your frustrating inability to make Lou's recipe work with your jury rigged "rejuvelac" version, etc., of it. You seem to be not getting it done right at all for some reason. Maybe if you do a video going through your attempts at it something will pop up that you've missed seeing for yourself.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2015 02:59AM by SueZ.

i need to get a microscope
identify what i'm looking at
and quit quibbling with guessing

la_veronique Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> my question is this:
>
> why put it in the fridge to have the bacteria
> proliferate
> why not just keep it out at room temperature

He is trying to slow down the process as he throws in a lot of Lou's "accelerant" probiotics into the mix.


> wouldn't that accelerate the proliferation?


Yes. There's an additional reason he needs to slow it down. He not only throws in a lot of probiotics but he also throws in a lot of Lou's enzyme powder into the mix. This would have been more clear if he had bothered to mention what he does and what the recipe is in his video.

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "I think if you have a well fermented liquid and
> you grind some mature coconut in omega juicer at a
> slow speed and leave the coconut in the fermented
> juice for a day, you may get good result."
>
>
>
> Now that's another hare brained enough idea.
> Maybe you don't know that there are reasons Lou's
> recipe calls for young coconuts (not mature ones)
> and, preferably, his own branded lipase rich
> powder to get his "good results". Maybe you don't
> know that "rejuvalac" can't, and so won't, break
> down fat and thus be capable of fermenting mature
> coconuts. Etc.

Maybe it will break it down unless Lou is the only one with the truth.

I have tried this with seed like sunflower and pumpkin seeds following Ann Wigmore ideas. Blend them with just water and leave them to ferment for 8 hours. It will ferment and break down the fat in the seed. It is true coconut have more fat but we cannot just dismiss the fact that it will break down the fat.

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> la_veronique Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > my question is this:
> >
> > why put it in the fridge to have the bacteria
> > proliferate
> > why not just keep it out at room temperature
>
> He is trying to slow down the process as he throws
> in a lot of Lou's "accelerant" probiotics into the
> mix.
>
>
> > wouldn't that accelerate the proliferation?
>
>
> Yes. There's an additional reason he needs to
> slow it down. He not only throws in a lot of
> probiotics but he also throws in a lot of Lou's
> enzyme powder into the mix. This would have been
> more clear if he had bothered to mention what he
> does and what the recipe is in his video.

Here is one of the many recipe videos they produced. (This posting is not an endorsement nor an agreement with what is said by these two.)

[www.youtube.com]

RawPracticalist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> It will ferment and break down the fat in
> the seed.



No. The "rejuvalac" will break down the protein and the carbs.

Anyone around here still think "reguvalac" will ferment coconut fat? I hope not.

SueZ:

Anyone around here still think "reguvalac" will ferment coconut fat? I hope not.

Tai:
Long before we ever went to a Lou Corona probiotic class, the way we made coconut yogurt was to blend the thai coconut meat with water and let sit overnight in a mason jar. We did not use a probiotic. This is the same way that we made sauerkraut. No one told us that we couldn't make it this way. We made a LOT this way. It was a faster process, if we used some old coconut yogurt as a starter. Granted a potent probiotic greatly speeds up the fermentation.

Tender young coconut will ferment on it own. Potent rejuvelac would only speed up this process. When I get organized, I will experiment to see what tastes the best, either Lou's probiotic or the rejuvelac. To me, it comes down to taste.

Some probiotics taste awful. One strain that Lou used to use, Salivarius, created a slimy texture, similar to saliva. It was supposed to be very beneficial. The longer the yogurt sat in the fridge, the slimier it got, to the point where it was just gross, even though it was not bad or "rotten".

Again, the taste of the rye rejuvelac that TSM teaches is actually really great and as I said, very healing. So, to me, it's good recipe.

I am not a huge fan of coconut yogurt. When I have extra coconut, I will dehydrate it. I just love fresh or dehydrated coconut. I am a fan of sesame and sunflower yogurt. I get really frustrated with poppy seed yogurt. Too much grit. I prefer to just make butter with it, to grind down the coarseness.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2015 01:38AM by Tai.

Tai, is that a yes or a no?

TSM?

la_veronique Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> [www.youtube.com]

At 4:19 Dan says amongst other things, that Lou is all about muscles, that back in the day, he would do 92 pull ups and was trained by a Green Beret.

All this time on YouTube Lou's been saying he hasn't exercised since high school.

SueZ:
At 4:19 Dan says amongst other things, that Lou is all about muscles, that back in the day, he would do 92 pull ups and was trained by a Green Beret.

All this time on YouTube Lou's been saying he hasn't exercised since high school.

Tai:
That's like how the coconut boy says that he doesn't go to a gym. WHy should he when he climbs coconut trees?

Lou doesn't consider his daily rebounding, long stretching sessions and bar work as hard core exercise. To him, running marathons is.

The intense exercise he did in the air force or whatever military work he did was different from the exercise he did in high school. That's all he meant.