"Despite a common perception that fruit juice is healthy, fruit juice contains high amounts of naturally occurring sugar without the fibre content of the whole fruit. Frequent fruit juice consumption may therefore contribute to excessive sugar consumption typical of the Western society. Although excess sugar intake is associated with high blood pressure (BP), the association between habitual fruit juice consumption and BP is unclear. The present study investigated the association of fruit juice consumption with brachial and central (aortic) BP in 160 community dwelling adults. Habitual fruit juice consumption was measured using a 12 month dietary recall questionnaire. On the same day, brachial BP was measured and central (aortic) BP was estimated through radial artery applanation. Frequency of fruit juice consumption was classified as rare, occasional or daily. Those who consumed fruit juice daily, versus rarely or occasionally, had significantly higher central systolic BP (F (2, 134)?=?6.09, p?<0.01), central pulse pressure (F (2, 134)?=?4.16, p?<0.05), central augmentation pressure (F (2, 134)?=?5.98, p?<0.01) and central augmentation index (F (2, 134)?=?3.29, p?<0.05) as well as lower pulse pressure amplification (F (2, 134)?=?4.36, p?<0.05). There were no differences in brachial BP. Central systolic BP was 3-4?mmHg higher for those who consumed fruit juice daily rather than rarely or occasionally. In conclusion, more frequent fruit juice consumption was associated with higher central BPs."

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/25/2015 02:27AM by jtprindl.

Hi JTP,
You used to refute studies done on fat, because it was not raw "living" fat, but perhaps heated fat.

The same is true for studies done on pasteurized fruit juice. Look at what most Americans drink: cranberry juice in a plastic bottle made from concentrate or pasteurized orange juice in a cardboard container or pasteurized apple juice made from iffy apples. I didn't read the article because it cost money, but I am just assuming it wasn't freshly made juice.

Let me tell you clinically my experience. I have easily helped lower blood pressure with fresh raw juices, including fruit juice. One lady, I put her on juices for 3 weeks and her blood pressure normalized for the first time in 30 years. Some was vegetable juice made from the Jack Lalaine juicer and also watermelon juice. The one thing I couldn't make her give up was a cup of coffee daily.
I had another case of a man with a similar story (blood pressure normalized after 3 weeks of juice). Both people had been on high BP drugs for decades.
My explanation is that dehydration is rarely considered in blood pressure problems. Fresh raw juice hydrates even better than water, in my experience. I am not saying we don't need water, but in hydrating tissue, raw fresh juice seems better.
I had other cases of blood pressure normalizing with juices, but they were not as chronic.

The Gerson therapy and many natural healers do not restrict fruits from being juiced when healing chronic disease and things much worse than blood pressure is healed.
Adding protein (like green juice) to fruit can lower the glycemic value.

And what I realized some years ago is that not all fruits are the same. For example, nopal cactus fruits are very anti-inflammatory and the only way to practically consume them is to juice them because of so many seeds (I feel the same way about passion fruit).

WHen I consider what Esselstyn teaches about fruit juice, I think about what most Americans drink (Pasteurized juice), but there is no way I could agree with him about say nopal fruit juice. When you add bitter and sour things to sweet fruits, including juice, then it does diminish the sweetness.

Lastly, I have healed so many sinus and phlegm conditions in California with fresh citrus juice.

One thing I have learned is to not make blanket statements about raw fresh fruit.

My one disclaimer is that I give people herbs, but never directly for blood pressure. I gave the one lady herbs for a skin problem and the man I gave herbs for detoxing organs. I notice that kidney tonic herbs and lumbar support herbs always seem to help blood pressure. I think the juices are sufficient by themselves, though, in light of the non-herbal Gerson approach's success.

Great sharing Tai, and good to question what type of juice was used in the study.

None-the-less, lots of surprising negativity in the raw food world over freshly squeezed fruit juice consumption. Of course Brian Clement is heavily against it and recommends greatly watering down the juice with mainly water, but people like Markus Rothkranz tell me he is against it also because of blood sugar issues with people. Then there are the various folks who say drinking fruit juice makes it easy to overdose on fructose which leads to weight gain. Personally l am not so negative about it, and if l feel like a fruit juice l will have one these days. I eat lots of good foods so some occasional fruit juice is not going to be so bad, but never a pasteurized juice of course.

www.thesproutarian.com

TAI GREAT SHARING, I AM TORN THOUGH. I HAVE SUCH A SWEET TOOTH. I TRIED EVERYTHING.

AND NOW BLOOD PRESSURE, I AM FEARFUL ITS TRUE...BUT NOT IN ALL CASES AND ALL PEOPLE, ALL THE TIME, RIGHT? WOULDN'T WE ALL BE DEAD?

I DO LOVE A GOOD NUTTY SALAD. SALTY FATTY. I AM TERRIBLE.

LATELY I TASTE EVERYTHING AND EAT NOTHING.

ABSOLUTES EXISTS, AND EVEN IF YOU DONT AGREE THAT IS AN ABSOLUTE. bUT WHAT IS GOOD AND EVIL, THAT IS THE QUESTION.

IS FRUIT EVIL GUYS? REALLY? IS IT JUST THAT TOO MUCH IS EVIL, OR IS A LITTLE OK?



I THINK THERE IS A GRAIN OF TRUTH IN EVERYTHING, DEPENDING ON THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE THINKER.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/25/2015 05:58AM by suvine.

TSM
Of course Brian Clement is heavily against it and recommends greatly watering down the juice with mainly water

Tai
When someone has a full blown phlegm problem, I think straight citrus is fine. But for a normal healthy person, watering down citrus is good. I water mine down with watermelon juice! I use a bit more than half watermelon juice with my citrus. I also use fresh coconut water too, even the mexican non sweet fresh coconuts.

Watering down fruit juice is easily done with green juice. One doesn't have to use water, but they can.

I talked to Charlotte Gerson's son this month at the Cancer convention and he said they use sour apples with the carrot when they make the juice. He also said the trick with the Norwalk juicer is the pulp of the carrot and apple are mixed together before juicing and the acids extract more this way together than separately. And why do people conveniently ignore the successful Gerson therapy when bashing fruit and fruit juice?

I don't like to promote pure sweet juice. I always add something sour or bitter to sweet. Like I will put passionfruit into my watermelon or lemon and/or orange into the watermelon.

When I make nopal cactus fruit juice, I sometimes juice nopal leaf which is sour and hence the end result is just slightly sweet.

I don't have the time or inclination to confront all these claims and testimonials but I will address this one...

"Adding protein (like green juice) to fruit can lower the glycemic value."

NO, Tai, it doesn't work like that. Whoever told you that doesn't know what they are talking about. Period.

SueZ:
NO, Tai, it doesn't work like that. Whoever told you that doesn't know what they are talking about. Period.

Tai:
Adding protein to fruit smoothie or fruit juice is being told by many to lower glycemic value.

People who manifest insulin resistance symptoms from a fruit smoothie or fruit juice often don't have those symptoms when protein is added. Protein can be raw vegan protein or green juice higher in protein. I have seen these reactions over and over with people, and yes it's just my observations but they line up with this commonly taught concept that protein lowers glycemic value.

If this is wrong, I would like to know why, especially why people's symptoms and reactions seem to fall in line with this.

[nutritiondata.self.com]

"GI values affected by combination with other foods
While tests for Glycemic Index are usually done on individual foods, we often consume those foods in combination with other foods. The addition of other foods that contain fiber, protein, or fat will generally reduce the Glycemic Index of the meal. The GI of this "mixed meal" can be estimated by taking a weighted average of the GI's of the individual foods in the meal. However, this averaging method may become less accurate as the total percentage of carbohydrate decreases. Therefore, foods like pizza often create a higher glycemic response than the simple weighted average of the ingredient GI's would predict."

[happyandraw.com]
[myjuicecleanse.com]
[www.justonjuice.com]

I am so happy you brought this up SueZ, because it gave me a chance to reflect on something that I had not thought of before.

Lou Corona has this recipe called Gorilla Milk. It is so awesome. He makes a kind of coconut milk (he could add tocotrienols, almonds, etc to it) and mixes the green juice with it.

Well, what I had not considered before is perhaps fat lowers glycemic value, as well:

It is generally accepted that adding fat and protein to carbohydrate reduces glycemic responses by delaying gastric emptying and stimulating insulin secretion

[jn.nutrition.org]

Well, obviously, the gorilla milk is higher in fat with the coconut-almond milk. From what I heard, the dominant sugar in greens is glucose, so even green juice may be higher in glucose. Look how sweet wheatgrass is. So perhaps the addition of the fatty milk helps the tolerance of pure green juice. I am just guessing here because I don't prescribe gorilla milk. I am not against it and I actually like it, but, wow, is it time consuming to make. But I am interested now to experiment.

I completely forgot that they say fat lowers glycemic value. The reason I forgot is because the high fruit people say that eating fat with fruit will worsen insulin resistance and candida, etc by making blood sluggish. This is what I heard Doug Graham say. Is this correct? For some reason, I have never followed this avoiding fat with fruit idea. I usually make coconut milk (or something similar) with my fruit salads. I haven't seen or heard any insulin resistance symptoms after people eating my fruit salads. I do add berries often though and I remember Panchito said that blueberries lower glycemic value.

I would like to hear more people's experiences.

<<<I would like to hear more people's experiences.>>>

[www.edenwellness.org]
Let's Juice! The Glycemic Index of Carrot Juice and Controlling Blood Glucose Levels

...

Juice with oil. The glycemic response of carrot juice can be reduced by drinking a serving of carrot juice with a spoonful of oil. The oil has an added benefit of increasing the absorption of the fat-soluble carotenoids.

...

So, the average peak in blood glucose after consuming 14.5 oz. of carrot juice is only 116 mg/dl, still in the range of normal blood glucose values.

...

The glycemic index for carrot juice determined here is 86, and the glycemic index for carrot juice + Udo's oil is 66,

...

[www.edenwellness.org]

John, do you agree with Doug Graham that eating fat with fruit can worse candida and insulin resistance?
I remember you said you ate nuts and seeds. When do you eat them? With your green salad? Separately? Would you eat a fruit salad with coconut milk?

John Rose Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> <<>>
>
> [www.edenwellness.org]
> ot-juice-full.pdf
> Let's Juice! The Glycemic Index of Carrot Juice
> and Controlling Blood Glucose Levels
>
> ...
>
> Juice with oil. The glycemic response of carrot
> juice can be reduced by drinking a serving of
> carrot juice with a spoonful of oil. The oil has
> an added benefit of increasing the absorption of
> the fat-soluble carotenoids.
>
> ...
>
> So, the average peak in blood glucose after
> consuming 14.5 oz. of carrot juice is only 116
> mg/dl, still in the range of normal blood glucose
> values.
>
> ...
>
> The glycemic index for carrot juice determined
> here is 86, and the glycemic index for carrot
> juice + Udo's oil is 66,
>
> ...
>
> [www.edenwellness.org]
> ot-juice-full.pdf
>

A six person 120 minute study. Lol.

Tai, if you want to hang with the "answer to pollution is dilution" crowd you will always have plenty more company than truth - and that's all.

<<<John, do you agree with Doug Graham that eating fat with fruit can worse candida and insulin resistance?>>>

No. It's been my experience that the fat slows down the absorption of the sugar just like adding Udo's Oil to Carrot Juice.

<<<I remember you said you ate nuts and seeds. When do you eat them? With your green salad? Separately? >>>

Normally I eat them with my salad or as a late night snack all by themselves.

<<<Would you eat a fruit salad with coconut milk?>>>

I don't drink anything with my meals ever, but I have added ground up sesame seeds in a coffee grinder with really ripe bananas. Interestingly, it tastes a lot like a durian and it has an almost identical overall fat %. I also do very well eating fruit with avocados. In fact, in the beginning, I did better adding the avocados to fruit than I did by adding it with my salad. It's also been my experience that it's those individuals with compromised livers that don't do well with fat and therefore, attracts the low fat crowd.

As far as adding Vegetable Juice to Fruit Juice, it's really a no brainer. If one is drinking 16 oz. of Fruit Juice, that's a lot of sugar without the fiber to slow down the absorption. Add 8 oz. of Vegetable Juice to 8 oz. of Fruit Juice and now we have 16 oz. of Juice with half the amount of fruit sugar, therefore, it's going to have a lower affect on our Blood Sugar!

"You used to refute studies done on fat, because it was not raw "living" fat, but perhaps heated fat."

Yes, when I mentioned the importance of raw plant-based fats versus cooked animal fats and O3:O6 ratios in regards to dietary fat and cardiovascular disease, and you make a good point. The results of this study would be flawed if the juice was pasteurized and processed.

Tai Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SueZ:
> NO, Tai, it doesn't work like that. Whoever told
> you that doesn't know what they are talking about.
> Period.
>
> Tai:
> Adding protein to fruit smoothie or fruit juice is
> being told by many to lower glycemic value.
>
> People who manifest insulin resistance symptoms
> from a fruit smoothie or fruit juice often don't
> have those symptoms when protein is added.


Indeed people do report this, and that is why many like to blend greens with fruit.

www.thesproutarian.com

The Sproutarian Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tai Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > SueZ:
> > NO, Tai, it doesn't work like that. Whoever
> told
> > you that doesn't know what they are talking
> about.
> > Period.
> >
> > Tai:
> > Adding protein to fruit smoothie or fruit juice
> is
> > being told by many to lower glycemic value.
> >
> > People who manifest insulin resistance symptoms
> > from a fruit smoothie or fruit juice often
> don't
> > have those symptoms when protein is added.
>
>
> Indeed people do report this, and that is why many
> like to blend greens with fruit.

Sure there is no shortage of a wild range of testimonial reports from every which way - but so what? Where are the blood sugar proofs - from studies less ridiculous than those diet pushers do on their own selected six people which last more than 120 minutes?

Get real. Testimonials based on people "feeling" they are symptom free of insulin resistance are hardly the science you said you were going to stick with from now on. Testimonials aren't science at all.

The field of functional medicine relies on blood tests, and it was in these classes that I learned about lowering the glycemic value of fruit with protein. They are looking at blood tests all day long, year in and out. They do use supplements, but they also work with nutrition. They don't push vegan but the end result is that they correct blood sugar problems.

And when I said that juices are more hydrating than water sometimes, I base that on some clients who were constipated and would drink one gallon of water daily but would still only go 1x or twice a week. On the fresh raw juices and fresh fruit with herbs, I got them going 3 times a day. So the people who healed their blood pressure problems went through major detox. And it's not limited to the colon, but affects all organs. And I said before, I agree with Morse that certain fruits act on the lymphatic system, not to mention certain greens, sprouts and veggies. I just mean that healing tissue is part of healthy hydration.

I learned that dehydration should be the first to rule out when dealing with high BP from this man:
[www.amazon.com]

But when I found some people that did not seem to benefit from water, even one gallon, but did respond to juice, I just made that connection.

Testimonials are not scientific but they are worth something. I just bought a used book by a chiropractor that explains all his successes of curing chronic pain by getting clients off of milk and dairy products. Sometimes encountering something over and over leads one later to a scientific explanation.

"And when I said that juices are more hydrating than water sometimes, I base that on some clients who were constipated and would drink one gallon of water daily but would still only go 1x or twice a week. "


maybe it was the fiber plus the water versus water only , as opposed to being "more hydrating"

I am a little bit in shock that you got jtprindl to admit that you had a good point. I'll be ok though. some deep breathing is helping me recover.

This is the man who taught my functional medicine classes (and the concept of adding protein to fruit):
[www.functionalmedicine.org]

This is a thyroid book he wrote:
[thyroidbook.com]

and his brain book:
[brainhealthbook.com]

While he is not an MD, MDs took his classes.

Tai, while you were posting your last post I was off to read about the "TM owners" of "Functional Medicine" while wondering whether you had ever read anything KFCA wrote about the the truth of the Gerson Therapy testimonials. Hey though, you obviously are extremely heavily invested and loyal to the network of that type of people and nothing I can say or do will be worth the effort.


Maybe KFCA will be interested in getting to the bottom of the qualifications of these two new ones (new to me at least) but she probably has better things to do too.

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> while wondering whether you had ever
> read anything KFCA wrote about the the truth of
> the Gerson Therapy testimonials.


I would love to read about what KFCA wrote. Is there a link you are able to provide Suez?

www.thesproutarian.com

SueZ
Hey though, you obviously are extremely heavily invested and loyal to the network of that type of people

Tai:
I think you have me pegged wrong. I often find western natural healers who don't use herbs and don't grasp the five elements lacking in many areas. Nevertheless, I learn as much as I can from the successes they have without herbs. And if I am invested in anything, it's to people's lives and longevity, not to a particular protocol

If I hadn't known so many people who were cured of cancer naturally, including in my own family, I guess I would be a doubter.

While we are on the topic of the Gerson therapy, Charlotte's son told me he was raised vegetarian with the exception of drinking raw liver juice!!!!! Do you think I agree with or condone that? No way. That is how Charlotte was raised too, I guess. Obviously, the Gerson therapy was a work in progress, since they totally dropped the raw liver eventually. I certainly see it as flawed, but the good parts are very informative.