Today I got to sample an array of "raw" vegan aged cheeses. I know that miso, nutritional yeast and cashews are not considered raw, but all non raw ingredients can be substituted for raw when you make it yourself.

[miyokoskitchen.com]

So I asked an insider today with the company and the trick is aging the cheese in cold storage at 45 degree temperature with 80% humidity from between 3-4 weeks or 6-8 weeks, depending on flavor.

I asked how to retard mold. The answer was to have a spotless and clean cold storage, like a wine refrigerator. Plus salt is added to the cheese.

I bought Miyoko's book a couple of years ago but never tried to age cheese before, but now I am going to, unless someone explains why it's a bad idea.

I plan on using seeds mostly, like sprouted sesame and sunflower seeds.

I tried 8 flavors today and wow, they were delicious and truly gourmet.

I don't plan on using any oil when I make mine.

Comments? Criticisms? Suggestions?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/28/2015 02:53AM by Tai.

Some people consider unpasteruized aged miso raw. I remember it was a staple at the Tree of Life. And Juliano, many others and MK have miso in their raw recipes. But now looking at it, I have river miso in my fridge..I agree with you. What was I thinking.

Cashews have to be hand shelled to be raw, our coop sells them.

Nutritional Yeast is like that cheese flavor, wow if its not raw why do people use it, for the cheesy kale chips?

Tai are you making raw vegan aged cheese? I loved the one I made with rejuvelac and sunflower seeds blended and hung to age in cheescloth. I love that cheez..

Can you tell me who MIOYKO is?

I like your project, maybe we can do one together, do you have one I can try?

Suvine:
.I agree with you. What was I thinking.

Tai:
I take it back. I actually don't know. I just know that soybeans are usually boiled first before making miso, but I don't actually know if the chickpeas are cooked when making chickpea miso.

But realize that the end product is alive and the culture in the miso can slightly culture other things, such as the cheese. I started making kimchee with miso instead of salt (because of the inherent culture). I would let the miso ferment the asian cabbage for four hours or more to shrink it down and get some juices out to make less work for me getting it in the crock. And do you know what happened? It was so delicious, we ended up eating it all. I left some for the next day in the refrigerator, but no way was it going in the crock. I added fresh asian herbs to make it delectable.

So my point is that miso is really useful as a tool and there probably is a truly raw brand/flavor out there.

I wouldn't worry too much about nutritional yeast, because that is how some vegans get their B-12 and other B vitamins. Don't omit something, if you don't have a replacement. Some vegans are good about taking their supplements like B-12 and others just forget to for long periods. So cheesy kale chips are better than nothing for some vegans. The reason why it's not raw is because the yeast has to be pasteurized.

As far as projects go, I am going to read a bit more. I want to learn more about cultures. Miyoko is a vegan chef and it took her 20 years to master how to make authentic vegan cheese. Her business cannot disclose the cultures it uses, which are proprietary, but the reason they are special is because they are vegan. So, I want to learn what makes a culture vegan and not vegan. OBviously lactobacillus plantarum would be vegan, but I want to get a culture that is intended to make cheese.

By the way, her cheese is authentic. The aged English sharp is amazing. She's not allowed to use the word cheese or words like cheddar. Too much of a legal challenge.

Yes, it would be fun sharing successes and failures. I think the first step for me is getting a wine refrigerator or figuring out how to control humidity in a regular one. I will keep you posted.

I am curious what TSM is going to say about vitamin levels in fresh seed yogurt vs one to two month old seed cheese.

"I just know that soybeans are usually boiled first before making miso, but I don't actually know if the chickpeas are cooked when making chickpea miso."

Soy beans and chickpeas are ALWAYS cooked before being made into miso.

You can make miso or buy it. Here is how South River processes their miso ...

[www.youtube.com]

Thank YOu Suez. SO no miso is raw!







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/28/2015 08:03PM by suvine.

Suvine:
SO no miso is raw!

Tai:
The irony is that miso IS a vegan living food product. It may not be 100% raw but it is 100% living food. And as SueZ said, one CAN make it raw.

By the way, I let my cat smell the aged raw vegan cheese and he chased me through the backyard trying to get a piece. I finally gave him one. Same with my other cat; she gobbled it up.

suvine Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thank YOu Suez. SO no miso is raw!
>
> [i.imgur.com]


You're welcome.

"Tai:
The irony is that miso IS a vegan living food product. It may not be 100% raw but it is 100% living food. And as SueZ said, one CAN make it raw."


Miso is vegan alright but what's living about it is 100% not the beans or rice...

And no, I didn't say one can make it raw. I said you can make your own miso but the beans and rice will still always have to be 100% cooked first.

DueZ wrote:
I said you can make your own miso but the beans and rice will still always have to be 100% cooked first.

Tai:
This man makes raw miso:

[www.wildfermentation.com]

He let this one age for 14 months:

Raw Black-eyed Pea Miso Paste
Written by Favero Greenforest
Posted on October 14, 2013

raw miso harvest

This miso paste ferment is an experiment using all raw ingredients.

2# 6oz. raw black-eyed peas (soaked and chopped)

2# 8oz. raw barley koji

7.2 oz. salt

Lima bean miso starter (blended in water and strained)

First the koji. I soaked pearled barley over night, and it puffs up all swollen and soft. I sifted spores from a previous batch of barley koji into a hotel pan, and tossed the raw soaked barley around in the spores coating them thoroughly. Then I incubated them at 85° F for 48 hours. (There are many already-published incubation methods for koji, and I won’t go into them here.)

Next the Black-eyed peas (BEP). I soaked them for 24 hours. They swell up big, too, and get fairly soft compared to many beans. I pulsed them slightly with the S-blade in a Cuisinartâ„¢ until they were chopped medium.

I put 2 tablespoons of live lima bean miso (not raw) into a cup of water and blended thoroughly. I let it sit for 20 minutes as the solids (cooked) settled to the bottom of the cup, and then poured off the liquid, which was full of bacteria from its own lacto-ferment.

I then blended the raw barley koji with the starter water, added half the salt, and then mixed this into the chopped BEP. I packed it into a crock and put a plate and weight on top. That was 14 months ago. ( I never added more than half the salt as it was salty enough without it to my taste preference.)

blended raw misoHere’s the BEP paste blended in the crock with an immersion blender. (Blending brings out lots of flavor.)

This fermented miso paste tastes much brighter than other BEP miso pastes I’ve made. It is less complex on the palette, and the flavor of the BEP comes through very strong. It is very delicious as a broth, and I have not yet experimented with it in any other dishes

Tai Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> DueZ wrote:
> I said you can make your own miso but the beans
> and rice will still always have to be 100% cooked
> first.
>
> Tai:
> This man makes raw miso:
>
> [www.wildfermentation.com]
> -miso-paste/
>
> He let this one age for 14 months:
>
> Raw Black-eyed Pea Miso Paste
> Written by Favero Greenforest
> Posted on October 14, 2013
>
> raw miso harvest
>
> This miso paste ferment is an experiment using all
> raw ingredients.
>
> 2# 6oz. raw black-eyed peas (soaked and chopped)
>
> 2# 8oz. raw barley koji
>
> 7.2 oz. salt
>
> Lima bean miso starter (blended in water and
> strained)
>
> First the koji. I soaked pearled barley over
> night, and it puffs up all swollen and soft. I
> sifted spores from a previous batch of barley koji
> into a hotel pan, and tossed the raw soaked barley
> around in the spores coating them thoroughly.
> Then I incubated them at 85° F for 48 hours.
> (There are many already-published incubation
> methods for koji, and I won’t go into them
> here.)
>
> Next the Black-eyed peas (BEP). I soaked them for
> 24 hours. They swell up big, too, and get fairly
> soft compared to many beans. I pulsed them
> slightly with the S-blade in a Cuisinartâ„¢ until
> they were chopped medium.
>
> I put 2 tablespoons of live lima bean miso (not
> raw) into a cup of water and blended thoroughly.
> I let it sit for 20 minutes as the solids (cooked)
> settled to the bottom of the cup, and then poured
> off the liquid, which was full of bacteria from
> its own lacto-ferment.
>
> I then blended the raw barley koji with the
> starter water, added half the salt, and then mixed
> this into the chopped BEP. I packed it into a
> crock and put a plate and weight on top. That was
> 14 months ago. ( I never added more than half the
> salt as it was salty enough without it to my taste
> preference.)
>
> blended raw misoHere’s the BEP paste blended in
> the crock with an immersion blender. (Blending
> brings out lots of flavor.)
>
> This fermented miso paste tastes much brighter
> than other BEP miso pastes I’ve made. It is
> less complex on the palette, and the flavor of the
> BEP comes through very strong. It is very
> delicious as a broth, and I have not yet
> experimented with it in any other dishes

Lol, well that guy certainly disagrees with me. Has he resurfaced with any more raw miso recipes in the last few years since that batch? I wonder why it never caught on - well, not really. People will try anything. There are still people water bath canning meat that have somehow managed to live to tell the tale, too. No thanks, but good luck if you're going to follow that guy's lead.

Tai, you don't have to invest in an expensive temperamental wine fridge for your experiments. You can use a cheap dorm fridge. Just add an external thermostat (like one from a small window air conditioner) between the fridge and the wall plug set to the temperature you want. To keep the humidity up you can put a big pan of water on the floor of the fridge. Keep a thermometer/hygrometer in the fridge so you can keep tabs on how it's doing. You can also just try just adjusting the set screw on the fridge's thermostat as you may be able to get the right temperature by just fiddling with that setting.

SueZ:
No thanks, but good luck if you're going to follow that guy's lead.

Tai:
No, I am not going to try the recipe. Just showing it's been done. It is best left in the hands of a professional.

As I mentioned, Hippocrates Institute stopped recommending rejuvelac when testing revealed that there could be both good and bad batches (undesirable bacteria) and it is hard to control. At the same time, when I followed TSM's recipe, I learned how to clearly tell if one accidentally has a bad batch and that doesn't happen that often. Anyway, once I made amasake with raw sprouted black rice. It was so amazingly good. Yet, I felt undesirable pathogens enter my system. I had only drank a bit of it. Although the entire batch of amazake was totally raw, I was forced to heat it on high for a minute to kill the cultures, whatever they were, despite that Koji was the dominant culture, evidenced by the very very sweet amazake. So, yes I know the dangers. It's something for food scientists to master.

Brian said the unique thing about cabbage is the sulfur compounds naturally restrict bad bacterial growths, which is why sauerkraut is safe.

SueZ:

Just add an external thermostat (like one from a small window air conditioner) between the fridge and the wall plug set to the temperature you want. To keep the humidity up you can put a big pan of water on the floor of the fridge. Keep a thermometer/hygrometer in the fridge so you can keep tabs on how it's doing. You can also just try just adjusting the set screw on the fridge's thermostat as you may be able to get the right temperature by just fiddling with that setting.

Tai:
Thanks for the ideas. Yes, I have a spare small fridge like that. I will try that. I saw that on youtube to control humidity like that (a pan of water on the bottom). I will share the results of the science experiments as they occur.

Tai Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SueZ:
> No thanks, but good luck if you're going to follow
> that guy's lead.
>
> Tai:
> No, I am not going to try the recipe. Just
> showing it's been done. It is best left in the
> hands of a professional.
>
> As I mentioned, Hippocrates Institute stopped
> recommending rejuvelac when testing revealed that
> there could be both good and bad batches
> (undesirable bacteria) and it is hard to control.
> At the same time, when I followed TSM's recipe, I
> learned how to clearly tell if one accidentally
> has a bad batch and that doesn't happen that
> often. Anyway, once I made amasake with raw
> sprouted black rice. It was so amazingly good.
> Yet, I felt undesirable pathogens enter my system.
> I had only drank a bit of it. Although the entire
> batch of amazake was totally raw, I was forced to
> heat it on high for a minute to kill the cultures,
> whatever they were, despite that Koji was the
> dominant culture, evidenced by the very very sweet
> amazake. So, yes I know the dangers. It's
> something for food scientists to master.
>
> Brian said the unique thing about cabbage is the
> sulfur compounds naturally restrict bad bacterial
> growths, which is why sauerkraut is safe.
>
> SueZ:
>
> Just add an external thermostat (like one from a
> small window air conditioner) between the fridge
> and the wall plug set to the temperature you want.
> To keep the humidity up you can put a big pan of
> water on the floor of the fridge. Keep a
> thermometer/hygrometer in the fridge so you can
> keep tabs on how it's doing. You can also just try
> just adjusting the set screw on the fridge's
> thermostat as you may be able to get the right
> temperature by just fiddling with that setting.
>
> Tai:
> Thanks for the ideas. Yes, I have a spare small
> fridge like that. I will try that. I saw that on
> youtube to control humidity like that (a pan of
> water on the bottom). I will share the results of
> the science experiments as they occur.

Tai, I hope you have come to realize that making truly raw vegan aged cheese from sprouted sunflower and sesame seeds is not a good idea. I hope other experimenters can realize that, too.


"First do no harm" ...

SueZ:
I hope you have come to realize that making truly raw vegan aged cheese from sprouted sunflower and sesame seeds is not a good idea.

Me:
Yes, I did figure it out. I only figured it out by eating a lot of Miyoko's cheese, since buying it on Sunday.

It turns out that aged nut cheese is just glorified salty dried salad dressing. No offense to Miyoko, because her cheese is truly gourmet and artisan and is an authentic substitute for animal cheese. I am impressed by her accomplishment.

I have made raw vegan salad dressing with seeds for years pretty much the same way and I almost never use salt or miso when I make the dressing. I know people need salt sometimes, but I get enough of it from other sources.

I think salt is probably important to age cheese. Without it, the cultures would be too active or mold might be a problem. In the Kevita brand of probiotic drinks, they add apple cider vinegar. I think this is another raw way of preserving a cultured food. So, whether it's vinegar or salt, there probably needs to be a preservative.

It was interesting to read about a soy product from Korea that was fermented for months and months and was very rich in B-12, that was once shared by TSM. And TSM has shown how to increase K2 with sprouted sunflower yogurt. And the asians are good with making Natto with soy and increasing K2 that way.

I get the sense that if something is fermented a long time to increase vitamin values, the emphasis is going to be on that and not on flavor.

Bottom line is that nuts and seeds can be stored in mason jars a long time and aged cheese is not necessary. One reason for aged cow/animal cheese is perhaps the humans want to preserve some milk, which is wet and can spoil. But we don't need to preserve nuts in the form of cheese. We just need good storage containers to make sure moths don't get inside.

I am a believer in what Ann Wigmore did with seed yogurt and what Lou and TSM teach. But that has a short shelf life. I will try removing much of the water and adding chia and see how long it can last without salt.

Tai, years ago I was duped into buying Miyoko's "now and zen" cookbook by it saying "Gourmet Vegan Recipes for the Enlightened Palate" on the cover. That faux gourmet faux healthy cookbook relied heavily on cutting every culinary corner to the quick and by using the garbage "hip" ingredients popular several decades ago to beguile marks. Back then, when she wrote that book, and she had only apparently been slaving away for fifteen of her twenty years at her vegan cheeze recipes these are the ingredients for cheese she came up with in her lab...


"1 pound tofu
1 cup miso
1/2 cup white wine
1/4 cup (or more) mirin"

IMO, this woman is far less interested in anyone health conscious eating healthy food than in maintaining her own cushy Marin County lifestyle. I highly doubt, that in the subsequent five years she's been slaving away in her lab perfecting her vegan cheese, anything more than dried up salad dressing could be expected out of her. And what serious raw vegan cook hasn't, at one time or another, dehydrated their salad dressing to add back to dishes for more concentrated flavor? Probably none of us who have been at this a while.


While I have not tasted the results of Miyoko's efforts of 20 years slaving in her lab over these recipes, and as God as my witness, I vow not to give one more penny knowingly to any of these scam artists who have already fooled me once - so I never will taste these cheezes of hers - I have read her recipes and have seen enough others of those of her ilk to surmise that what you bought from her was what she bought to sell you that she simply threw in the fridge for a little while longer. No proprietary anything, in other words, IMO.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/01/2015 06:48PM by SueZ.

SueZ:
anything more than dried up salad dressing could be expected out of her

Tai:
That is my personal deconstruction for me to see through it. YET, as I said a few times, it truly is authentic cheese and if someone has a party to go to and wants to have a vegan option, it's great. But it's not a health food with so much salt. By the way, it does not taste salty. It tastes normal. But because I ate so much of it these last few days, I realize it's a salt overload and that is not a way to consume nuts and seeds. I bet a non-vegan would not know that it's not real animal milk cheese. And my cat goes crazy smelling it.

Her cheese is a real food-condiment made of organic cashews, whereas most fake vegan cheese on the market is terrible: processed oil goop.

My hat goes off to her, but if I am going to put a lot of work into food, it better be health-promoting.

Tai, if you are going to a party there is no reason to bring cooked vegan fake cheese you consider non heath promoting. Why not bring a delicious fresh raw vegan salad dressing on a fresh raw vegan salad for Pete's sake?

Save the stanky old crusty stuff for the cats to feed their hungry master parasites with.

Tai I thought about that today. I did

but lets say rejuvelac is living, but if you put rejuvelac on a mcdonalds apple pie and ferment it, it would be living correct? According to that logic...right..or am I wrong. I could be.

Thats my thought today about this thread. I think about what you guys say when I am walking around sometimes.

Some people might not care. Like maple syrup in raw recipes, some people do not care.

I guess those raw who like miso, you can talk yourself into it and most people wouldnt mind.

Too bad, huh.

Is there something like miso that is raw. HEY ARTISAN CHEEZ right?