I often find myself wanting to eat something with fat in it. I eat a bit of cooked food, which satisfies some of this need. But after that I resort to nuts, especially cashews. Today I ate more than 100 grams of cashews. It felt good while eating, but later I felt tired and drained out for a while. I know nuts are difficult to digest and put a strain on the body because of their high protein content, among other things.

My feeling is that in order to satisfy my body's need for healthy fat, I am taking too much protein. This seems to be a common raw vegan fallacy, from what I have read.

I do not know what to do, because I feel this is a healthy craving for fat, so I don't want to ignore it. According to Cronometer I took 83 grams of fat today, of which 80% are unsaturated fats. I've had my dinner and will not be eating anymore.




How do I get healthy fat without taking too much protein through nuts and seeds?

Why does my body crave for fats in the first place? What could have made it deficient?

How do I know it is really a fat craving and not something else?

From my current understanding all I can do is eat a limited amount of nuts and seeds, not overdo them even if I still feel like eating more fat. Perhaps I can have a little bit of cooked food and add a little olive oil to salad, once in a few meals, but I would rather not have these as permanent solutions.


Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks.

it's not a fat craving. it's a cooked food feeling craving. cashews are cooked. most nuts are cooked and/or dried which may as well be cooked due to density and low water content

it will change over time as you push the envelope .

how do other primates get healthy fats?

there's enough in fruit and veg.

many will suggest coconut, chia, hemp, those kinds of things if you really believe that you are low in fat, so that's up to you to decide.

Fresh:

"how do other primates get healthy fats?"

That's irrelevant, other primates are not humans and they eat greens all day long and don't have the modern-day societal stress that most people do on a daily basis.

"there's enough in fruit and veg."

Evidence? Enough as in what?


iandthou:

"My feeling is that in order to satisfy my body's need for healthy fat, I am taking too much protein."

Don't worry about getting too much protein on a raw vegan diet, you're not going to have any adverse effects from eating sprouted nuts and seeds if you're healthy. Also, like fresh mentioned, it's important to buy your nuts and seeds from a high-quality source to make sure they are truly raw because there's a lot of deceptive labeling.

Your body could very well be calling out for fatty foods. Omega-3's are needed for optimal brain and fats in general for hormonal functioning. Relying on strictly fruits and vegetables for sufficient long-chain fatty acids (EPA/DHA) is risky unless you have gotten a cellular nutrient test performed and know you are for sure getting enough. Conversion rates for men are very low and the amount provided by a fruit + veggie diet, according to the research, does not add up to anywhere close to satisfactory amounts. Also, not all ALA is even absorbed, making matters even worse.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/15/2015 06:30PM by jtprindl.

RAW Macadamia nuts from Hawaii. Just munch on one or two

I would love to know how the body calls out for fats.

primates do not munch on greens all day long. when fruit is available many eat virtually all fruit as do many apparently healthy humans.

we are not going to get into evidence since we have different measures of "enough", much like we have different ideas on RDA's.

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fresh:
>
> "how do other primates get healthy fats?"
>
> That's irrelevant, other primates are not humans
> and they eat greens all day long and don't have
> the modern-day societal stress that most people do
> on a daily basis.
>
> "there's enough in fruit and veg."
>
> Evidence? Enough as in what?
>
>
> iandthou:
>
> "My feeling is that in order to satisfy my body's
> need for healthy fat, I am taking too much
> protein."
>
> Don't worry about getting too much protein on a
> raw vegan diet, you're not going to have any
> adverse effects from eating sprouted nuts and
> seeds if you're healthy. Also, like fresh
> mentioned, it's important to buy your nuts and
> seeds from a high-quality source to make sure they
> are truly raw because there's a lot of deceptive
> labeling.
>
> Your body could very well be calling out for fatty
> foods. Omega-3's are needed for optimal brain and
> fats in general for hormonal functioning. Relying
> on strictly fruits and vegetables for sufficient
> long-chain fatty acids (EPA/DHA) is risky unless
> you have gotten a cellular nutrient test performed
> and know you are for sure getting enough.
> Conversion rates for men are very low and the
> amount provided by a fruit + veggie diet,
> according to the research, does not add up to
> anywhere close to satisfactory amounts. Also, not
> all ALA is even absorbed, making matters even
> worse.



Well said about the primates not being humans and all the other things.

Best to avoid cashews and eat sprouted seeds and soaked fermented nuts yogurts. Getting tired after these meals can probably be fixed after a while if you do certain things. I used to get tired after high fat meals too, but no more.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/15/2015 10:14PM by The Sproutarian Man.

"I would love to know how the body calls out for fats."

Cravings. A healthy human body is intelligent and knows what it needs to function properly.

"primates do not munch on greens all day long."

They spend a much larger portion of the day eating than humans do (or need to). Either way, we are not orangutans or gorillas.

"we are not going to get into evidence since we have different measures of "enough", much like we have different ideas on RDA's."

It's not just my opinion, it's fully supported by scientific evidence. I haven't posted it here, but it surely exists.

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "I would love to know how the body calls out for
> fats."
>
> Cravings. A healthy human body is intelligent and
> knows what it needs to function properly.
>

your answer explains nothing. there is no mechanism that i am aware of for the body to "know" about low fat levels and seek out fat containing foods.

> "primates do not munch on greens all day long."
>
> They spend a much larger portion of the day eating
> than humans do (or need to). Either way, we are
> not orangutans or gorillas.
>

our fat requirements are similar. ignoring the relevance and context of my statement and saying we are not gorillas seems rather daft. don't worry, we won't be getting into any bickering, it's been quite pleasant around here and I have no interest in repeating any past jousts. just stopped by to check on all you health freaks, see what's happening. Since being here, I have stopped riding my bike through Suez's neighborhood, and stopping at all the stop signs, and saying hello to everyone, so that's one good thing.



> "we are not going to get into evidence since we
> have different measures of "enough", much like we
> have different ideas on RDA's."
>
> It's not just my opinion, it's fully supported by
> scientific evidence. I haven't posted it here, but
> it surely exists.

i am having a deja vu moment

"there is no mechanism that i am aware of for the body to "know" about low fat levels and seek out fat containing foods."

It's not just fat, it can any be nutrient needed by the body. Cravings can be a result of many things, nutritional deficiencies being one of them. Do you crave hydration when you are dehydrated?

[www.nutritionj.com]

"A high micronutrient density diet mitigates the unpleasant aspects of the experience of hunger even though it is lower in calories. Hunger is one of the major impediments to successful weight loss. Our findings suggest that it is not simply the caloric content, but more importantly, the micronutrient density of a diet that influences the experience of hunger. It appears that a high nutrient density diet, after an initial phase of adjustment during which a person experiences "toxic hunger" due to withdrawal from pro-inflammatory foods, can result in a sustainable eating pattern that leads to weight loss and improved health... A diet high in micronutrients appears to decrease food cravings and overeating behaviors. Sensations such as fatigue, weakness, stomach cramps, tremors, irritability and headaches, commonly interpreted as "hunger", resolve gradually for the majority of people who adopt a high nutrient density diet, and a new, less distressing, sensation (which we label "true" or "throat" hunger) replaces it."

"our fat requirements are similar."

Requirements for what result? What evidence is there that suggests they are similar to meet this result?

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "there is no mechanism that i am aware of for the
> body to "know" about low fat levels and seek out
> fat containing foods."
>
> It's not just fat, it can any be nutrient needed
> by the body. Cravings can be a result of many
> things, nutritional deficiencies being one of
> them. Do you crave hydration when you are
> dehydrated?
>

I have not asked what MAY be true, but what is known.
hydration yes, fats no to my knowledge.

> [www.nutritionj.com]
>
> "A high micronutrient density diet mitigates the
> unpleasant aspects of the experience of hunger
> even though it is lower in calories. Hunger is one
> of the major impediments to successful weight
> loss. Our findings suggest that it is not simply
> the caloric content, but more importantly, the
> micronutrient density of a diet that influences
> the experience of hunger. It appears that a high
> nutrient density diet, after an initial phase of
> adjustment during which a person experiences
> "toxic hunger" due to withdrawal from
> pro-inflammatory foods, can result in a
> sustainable eating pattern that leads to weight
> loss and improved health... A diet high in
> micronutrients appears to decrease food cravings
> and overeating behaviors. Sensations such as
> fatigue, weakness, stomach cramps, tremors,
> irritability and headaches, commonly interpreted
> as "hunger", resolve gradually for the majority of
> people who adopt a high nutrient density diet, and
> a new, less distressing, sensation (which we label
> "true" or "throat" hunger) replaces it."
>

may be true. again what we both consider high nutrient density is likely different.
yours science based and mine based on my lunatic ramblings



> "our fat requirements are similar."
>
> Requirements for what result? What evidence is
> there that suggests they are similar to meet this
> result?

3. the amounts of fat in the diets were very low, even at peak consumption levels; peak was only about 8.5% lipid, and the average annual intake was only about 2.5%. As a point of reference, humans do not need more than 3-5% fat on a dry matter basis in their diet, enough to provide the one essential fatty acid and the fat soluble vitamins (RDA, 1989)

[www.cast.uark.edu]

our brains have the ability to assess the energy content of foods with remarkable speed and accuracy (Toepel et al., 2009).
(energy content, not fat content)

With respect to Result, that would be for you to say as I do not attribute any particular benefits to higher fat intakes

"As a point of reference, humans do not need more than 3-5% fat on a dry matter basis in their diet, enough to provide the one essential fatty acid and the fat soluble vitamins (RDA, 1989)"

Looks like an outdated source with very vague and incomplete information that doesn't have any relevance. Your dietary fat percentage is not an indicator of your nutrient intake and this quote referred to dry matter, not caloric percentages. Using the diet of primates or the diets of primitive humans is not a reference point for what is optimal.

"With respect to Result, that would be for you to say as I do not attribute any particular benefits to higher fat intakes"

Have you ever tried higher fat intakes for longer than 1+ months with concern to O3:O6 ratios, sprouting nuts & seeds, and other possible causes for not feeling any benefits?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/16/2015 01:25AM by jtprindl.

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "As a point of reference, humans do not need more
> than 3-5% fat on a dry matter basis in their diet,
> enough to provide the one essential fatty acid and
> the fat soluble vitamins (RDA, 1989)"
>
> Looks like an outdated source with very vague and
> incomplete information that doesn't have any
> relevance.

you have a position that requires that you deny any information that is counter to it.
not conducive to conversation.
the relevance is ape and human fat requirements being similar, that's all.

what you claim is optimal is open to question, not conclusive.


Your dietary fat percentage is not an
> indicator of your nutrient intake and this quote
> referred to dry matter, not caloric percentages.
> Using the diet of primates or the diets of
> primitive humans is not a reference point for what
> is optimal.
>
> "With respect to Result, that would be for you to
> say as I do not attribute any particular benefits
> to higher fat intakes"
>
> Have you ever tried higher fat intakes for longer
> than 1+ months with concern to O3:O6 ratios,
> sprouting nuts & seeds, and other possible causes
> for not feeling any benefits?

I have not performed any experiments in that area.
have you?
do you have an experiment for me to try and the benefits that you foresee occurring?

This is getting off topic of the original post. I am sorry that jtprindl has veered off here.

I hope that iandthou has found some information here to be of use.

"have you?"

Yup, I follow a high-fat (omega-3 centered) diet right now and feel great!

"the relevance is ape and human fat requirements being similar, that's all."

Again, requirement for what? Survival? Not to suffer disease symptoms? Using the diet of primates or the diets of primitive humans is not a reference point for what is optimal nor does it have any relevance to this thread in the first place. Remember, you're the one who asked the question "how do other primates get healthy fats?".

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "have you?"
>
> Yup, I follow a high-fat (omega-3 centered) diet
> right now and feel great!
>

and have you compared that to something else like the same diet lower fat?

> "the relevance is ape and human fat requirements
> being similar, that's all."
>
> Again, requirement for what? Survival? Not to
> suffer disease symptoms? Using the diet of
> primates or the diets of primitive humans is not a
> reference point for what is optimal nor does it
> have any relevance to this thread in the first
> place.

it had relevance to the OP thinking that higher fat needed

and the requirement is for a gorilla kicking yourass, diseasefree

Remember, you're the one who asked the
> question "how do other primates get healthy
> fats?".

it was rhetorical, a thought provoker, for iandthou, not for you.

iandthou Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I often find myself wanting to eat something with
> fat in it. I eat a bit of cooked food, which
> satisfies some of this need. But after that I
> resort to nuts, especially cashews. Today I ate
> more than 100 grams of cashews. It felt good while
> eating, but later I felt tired and drained out for
> a while. I know nuts are difficult to digest and
> put a strain on the body because of their high
> protein content, among other things.
>
> My feeling is that in order to satisfy my body's
> need for healthy fat, I am taking too much
> protein. This seems to be a common raw vegan
> fallacy, from what I have read.
>
> I do not know what to do, because I feel this is a
> healthy craving for fat, so I don't want to ignore
> it. According to Cronometer I took 83 grams of fat
> today, of which 80% are unsaturated fats. I've had
> my dinner and will not be eating anymore.
>
>
>
>
> How do I get healthy fat without taking too much
> protein through nuts and seeds?
>
> Why does my body crave for fats in the first
> place? What could have made it deficient?
>
> How do I know it is really a fat craving and not
> something else?
>
> From my current understanding all I can do is eat
> a limited amount of nuts and seeds, not overdo
> them even if I still feel like eating more fat.
> Perhaps I can have a little bit of cooked food and
> add a little olive oil to salad, once in a few
> meals, but I would rather not have these as
> permanent solutions.
>
>
> Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks.

Olive, and other fruit and nut oils, are great for the human body and are also very satiating. Don't forget about avocados and coconuts, too.

> Don't worry about getting too much protein on a
> raw vegan diet, you're not going to have any
> adverse effects from eating sprouted nuts and
> seeds if you're healthy. Also, like fresh
> mentioned, it's important to buy your nuts and
> seeds from a high-quality source to make sure they
> are truly raw because there's a lot of deceptive
> labeling.

Thank you. Would you say there is a healthy limit to the quantity of sprouted nuts and seeds I can eat in a day?

suvine Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> RAW Macadamia nuts from Hawaii. Just munch on one
> or two

Ah, if only I got those here in India

SueZ Wrote:

> Olive, and other fruit and nut oils, are great for
> the human body and are also very satiating. Don't
> forget about avocados and coconuts, too.

Thanks. I do take a teaspoon of olive oil with my salad every other day or so. Perhaps I can get some almond oil. Will look up other fruit and nut oils. Avocados and coconuts are not easily available where I live.

Is there a limit to how much oil - olive or other such - one should consume in a day?

iandthou Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SueZ Wrote:
>
> > Olive, and other fruit and nut oils, are great
> for
> > the human body and are also very satiating.
> Don't
> > forget about avocados and coconuts, too.
>
> Thanks. I do take a teaspoon of olive oil with my
> salad every other day or so. Perhaps I can get
> some almond oil. Will look up other fruit and nut
> oils. Avocados and coconuts are not easily
> available where I live.
>
> Is there a limit to how much oil - olive or other
> such - one should consume in a day?

iandthou, like everyone else here I just don't know. My guess would be to not go over five times the percent of fat that reduced your libido to 1/5th of what it had been. Test it.

> iandthou, like everyone else here I just don't
> know. My guess would be to not go over five times
> the percent of fat that reduced your libido to
> 1/5th of what it had been. Test it.

. ok. thanks.

>
> Best to avoid cashews and eat sprouted seeds and
> soaked fermented nuts yogurts. Getting tired after
> these meals can probably be fixed after a while if
> you do certain things. I used to get tired after
> high fat meals too, but no more.


Thank you Sproutarian Man. Is there a limit to how many sprouted seeds or how many soaked nuts one can eat? I haven't found any information about seeds, but Shelton seems to recommend upto 60 nuts - almonds, to be precise, and I don't remember him recommending soaking - a day, while a book I am currently reading by Frederic Patenaude says 30 soaked nuts should be the limit.

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Don't worry about getting too much protein on a
> raw vegan diet, you're not going to have any
> adverse effects from eating sprouted nuts and
> seeds if you're healthy. Also, like fresh
> mentioned, it's important to buy your nuts and
> seeds from a high-quality source to make sure they
> are truly raw because there's a lot of deceptive
> labeling.


And do you mean sprouted nuts or soaked nuts? It seems that some kinds of almonds can be sprouted - I need to read more on this. Can other nuts be sprouted?

iandthou Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> jtprindl Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > Don't worry about getting too much protein on a
> > raw vegan diet, you're not going to have any
> > adverse effects from eating sprouted nuts and
> > seeds if you're healthy. Also, like fresh
> > mentioned, it's important to buy your nuts and
> > seeds from a high-quality source to make sure
> they
> > are truly raw because there's a lot of
> deceptive
> > labeling.
>
>
> And do you mean sprouted nuts or soaked nuts? It
> seems that some kinds of almonds can be sprouted -
> I need to read more on this. Can other nuts be
> sprouted?


Unless you have raw nuts still in their shell, soaking is the best option. From my knowledge, truly sprouting nuts is a very tedious and challenging process anyways. There is no set standard for how many nuts or seeds one should consume in a day, but it's good to have variety in your diet. Seeds are more nutrient-dense than nuts and it's very important to balance out your O3:O6 ratios. Because of this, I would recommend hemp seeds, sprouted chia/flax, and soaked walnuts as your staple. You could also try sprouted buckwheat groats, which are low-fat, which is "important" if you're still under the impression that healthy fats in balanced ratios causes health complications.

> Yup, I follow a high-fat (omega-3 centered) diet
> right now and feel great!
>

and have you compared that to something else like the same diet lower fat?

fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Yup, I follow a high-fat (omega-3 centered)
> diet
> > right now and feel great!
> >
>
> and have you compared that to something else like
> the same diet lower fat?


Yeah and here were the results (compared to now):

-Always hungry despite eating the same amount of calories as I currently do.
-Less creativity and focus, unnecessary anxiety at times.
-Less muscle mass and strength

This diet was fruit-based and I would also eat salads routinely with chia seeds.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2015 04:54PM by jtprindl.

<<<-Always hungry despite eating the same amount of calories as I currently do.>>>

How many times a day were you eating?

John Rose Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> <<<-Always hungry despite eating the same amount
> of calories as I currently do.>>>
>
> How many times a day were you eating?


I don't remember, whenever I was hungry. I know I could eat like 6 or 7 bananas and then feel hungry an hour later.

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> fresh Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > > Yup, I follow a high-fat (omega-3 centered)
> > diet
> > > right now and feel great!
> > >
> >
> > and have you compared that to something else
> like
> > the same diet lower fat?
>
>
> Yeah and here were the results (compared to now):
>

your conclusions below may indicate causation, but likely not.
It's quite apparent that many people see causation, and live their life based on this, without any basis.

I have often in my life seen associations between things and I thought causation was known.
but when examined, it was not true or not rigorous.

If you actually want to find out whether something is true, scientific principles need to be followed.

here are a couple key ones:

repeatability
controlling of variables
exposure of hidden variables

> -Always hungry despite eating the same amount of
> calories as I currently do.

hidden variable... this is something that occurs over time when transitioning to a raw diet anyway

data: without actual data, you don't know whether it was the same amount of calories or whether there were other factors in addition to the above including variable ingestion of stimulants, energy expenditure, sleep,etc etc

> -Less creativity and focus, unnecessary anxiety at
> times.

generalized conclusion Refuted by people on such low fat diets without these symptoms.

> -Less muscle mass and strength
>

your causative factor of increased fat is not supported by any evidence. could have been more calories, or no causation at all.


> This diet was fruit-based and I would also eat
> salads routinely with chia seeds.

show your data, food intake, exercise levels, etc. I am quite sure that you do not have the requisite data.

I'm not hassling you, just pointing out that insufficient info known to draw your conclusions, in addition to counter evidence that i have shown.

and very importantly, we DO NOT know the amount of fats that are ASSIMILATED into our bodies when ingesting various "fatty" foods. people who think they are HIGH fat, may well be LOW fat from an assimilation standpoint.

there are no statistics from what i can find of digestion efficiency of seeds, nuts, etc

this post is less for you, since you think your current state of knowledge is perfect, than for others as a cautionary tale of assuming and presuming without causation solidly determined, that we then build our whole lives and diets upon, such as the ingestion of rejuvelac presuming that it is having some benefit.

similarly i might see an association between high avo intake and fatigue and mucus, but may not have been rigorous in my investigation and it may be caused by other factors that i had not considered.

finally it is also true that hunger is often misinterpreted or not actual hunger. hydration other dietary items and other factors such as bodily staet impact what we think hunger is.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2015 05:30PM by fresh.

Fresh, it really doesn't matter what type of evidence you are presented with because you will always find a way to convince yourself otherwise. I accept that this is who you are.

"Understand: from now until the end of time, there will always be arguments and debates about things like detox and diet, and labels like “myth”, “scam,” “fad,” and other @#$%& like that. No matter how much research is done and how many books are written, you will always find a counter-argument for everything about everything in life. The incessant need and urge to waste our time constantly arguing against everything that challenges our opinion, “debunking” myths and criticizing and judging others on places like forum discussions and blog and YouTube comments, rather than use our time doing something more meaningful, pleasurable, profitable or useful, is a huge sign of a toxic, deficient brain.

You can listen to these arguments and mere opinions all day long, from now until Doomsday, and you will never find a right answer that satisfies you. You cannot intellectualize your way into health and into certainty about these matters. You will have to experience things yourself, directly, firsthand, for a long enough period of time, with an open mind and a willingness to admit that you may not have been right all along. Only then will you have the clarity and certainty about what to do and the ability to really transform your life, otherwise you’ll just be a slave to what the next doctor/expert/blogger/guru has to say, and you’ll never achieve any real success. Let your experience be the judge. Everything that I am grateful for and have deeply changed my life, is constantly being called a scam by someone else, and if I was to listen to everyone who had an opinion, I would’ve been so far gone by now."


"since you think your current state of knowledge is perfect"

Personally, I think your endless need for derogatory sarcasm and insults is telling enough about your diet. But that's just me, feel free to ignore it and continue on with your ways.