Before all the fruit '' junkies '' start attacking me, it's the title of a new John Kohler video on OK Raw - and a very good video at that. Highly recommended and very interesting, and I'm going to give his suggestions a go.

John talks with Viktoras about raw diets and gives his views as he approaches 80.It's also a plug for a new book coming out, but they don't bring it up till the 20 minute mark. Of course we have to look at things in the context of his age ( hopefully he does ). An 80 year old doesn't need the same amount of food as a 20 / 30 or 40 year old so perhaps he should have put things in context of his age. As I'm approaching 65 it's probably more relevant for me than a younger person.

You might be right about older people not liking so much sweet food. I've read that our tastes in food change as we age and that children avoid bitter tasting food and prefer sweet foods, while adults have a greater tolerance for bitter foods.

What kinds of raw foods are on the bitter side? Not sweet fruit, it would be more like greens and nuts and the non-sweet fruits. The bitter foods (such as greens) also tend to be the healing foods, which might be more vital to a weaker older person than to a stronger younger person. So, it does seem that we are programmed to crave the right foods that we need at different stages of our lives and that no one diet fits all ages.

Isn't viktorus blind? if so, why?

Isn't viktorus blind? if so, why?

Oh, you got me going!

When it comes to writers/promoters of certain diets and lifestyles who develop serious health challenges, they usually won't discuss them. They never repent for having treated a good healing diet as a forever diet. We have to make changes over the span of our lifetime according to changing needs. It is not a crime to do so.

I recall some macrobiotic (99% cooked food diet!) practitioners and promoters getting seriously ill or at least exhibiting some ominous symptoms who simply could not own up to a possible connection between their long-held diet and subsequent challenges. When interviewed, they said things like, "I was working too hard and not resting enough" and so on. Never the rigidity with diet.

Indeed, I read an article written by a man who thankfully changed his standard oriental kind of macro diet to a more sensible, balanced one. He mentioned a prominent macrobiotic teacher announcing during an interview that he rarely hardly any (extracted) fats and oils - and as he spoke these words his hand kept dipping into a bowl of nuts. Could I make this up...

When Andreas Moritz died a couple of years ago - well, he looked awful in his last few videos. For a long time his family and business associates would not talk about cause of death on his website even though he was only in his 50s. His fans were inquiring left & right but no dice. It was just "Andreas has passed into a higher level of being" or some such kak. Then recently they said he was exposed to mold and that caused his death. I like a lot of his ideas, by the way. He was a blessing to many of us.

It's not a crime to get sick, no matter who you are or healthy your diet. But the crime is to not come clean about your own flaws and deficiencies that might have contributed to a serious illness. The only exception I know of (and I rather follow these things) was Adelle Davis. She apparently said near death that, given her from-birth bone condition, it was wrong of her to heavily consume and recommend something called "non instant milk powder." Sounds ghastly, but she got a lot of people consuming this, too. I hope they all stopped.

We all go sooner or later and it's not "wrong" that Viktorus may be blind. I just wish he'd talk about it if he's being interviewed, anyway.

I've gone on too long, maybe, so thanks to those who read this.

Why a High Fruit Diet May Not Be the Best For Health and Longevity.
The thread does not explain the why

Horsea, well put, excellent!

" Then recently they said he was exposed to mold and that caused his death"


In the latest HHI magazine, fred bisci said that 5 years ago he was stricken with a black mold that ate into his skull or brain.

strange.

NuNativs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Horsea, well put, excellent!

Many thanks!

[www.youtube.com]

BJ

Did you also look at this video from John Kohler? I think it mentions the role of hybridized fruits/sugar etc. I only saw 3 minutes of it 4/5 of the way when he talks about fruit etc. If anyone sees the whole thing, could you transcribe the
problems/solution?

La Veronique, there is a thread about this video about 3 pages back and I will boost it to the top. I tried watching the video but it was too boring for me so I didn't get to that part, but the issue of hybridized fruit has been discussed before.

Aside from a few diehards like Fresh and JR, more and more people are going easy on overdoing on the fruit for a number of reasons, even actively minimising the use of fruit.

“Whatever deceives men seems to produce a magical enchantment.” -Plato

One thing I have noticed is that anti-sugar people seem to be unhappy and never smile much, Donna Gates, Truth Caulkins (whom I admire), Clements, Suez?!? etc

A bit of natural, organically produced sugar, including maple syrup, is good for us, unless we are diabetic.

NuNativs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One thing I have noticed is that anti-sugar people
> seem to be unhappy and never smile much, Donna
> Gates, Truth Caulkins (whom I admire), Clements,
> Suez?!? etc

Well you have never seen me and don't know me at all and so are just talking out your butt when you say I am unhappy and never smile much.

Oh your unhappiness and joylessness leaks through in most all of your posts quite clearly I assure you...

NuNativs wrote:

<<<One thing I have noticed is that anti-sugar people seem to be unhappy and never smile much, Donna Gates, Truth Caulkins (whom I admire), Clements, Suez?!? etc>

Sue Schadenfreude wrote:

<<<Well you have never seen me and don't know me at all and so are just talking out your butt when you say I am unhappy and never smile much.>>>

NuNativs wrote:

<<<Oh your unhappiness and joylessness leaks through in most all of your posts quite clearly I assure you...>>>

Hey NuNativs,

That’s an interesting observation with your first post above and you hit the nail on the head with your second post above.

“With any kind of mean girl, or anyone who bullies anyone, there's always a reason for it. There is that sadness in them or insecurity that makes them feel like they need to act out or hurt other people.” -Maiara Walsh

“People will not be unkind to you unless they are hurting. It is not appropriate to catch their disease. If people are being unkind, they are displaying a symptom. Remember, it’s a symptom, they are diseased. Their disease is contagious, don’t catch it. Be a healer, heal yourself and heal others. Don’t catch the disease.” -Dr. Robert Pennington

“Whoever feels pain in hearing a good character of his neighbor, will feel a pleasure in the reverse. And those who despair to rise in distinction by their virtues, are happy if others can be depressed to a level of themselves.” -Benjamin Franklin

The definition of Schadenfreude: enjoyment obtained from the troubles of others.

Sue Schadenfreude wrote:

When I was a little girl, my mother told me that I was different and that I would NOT be able to find Pleasure in things that other people found Pleasure in, but that I would find Pleasure in making other people Miserable and that I would be good at It and that our entire family is good at It because we are a family of Psychopaths who can only find Pleasure in things that make other people Miserable!!!

Good quotes John, sums it up perfectly...

I have been raw for decade and I can say

there is a fine line

If you are eating a high fruit diet, thats all you can eat. You cannot snack on cooked wheat crackers between doing a OJ fast. Your scum on your teeth will rot.
It has to be all raw fruit- ( or raw vegan) or nothing.

I would not suggest 811 long periods.

If you do fruitarian, eat like ANNE OSBORNE eats, just a few pieces every meal. Not gallons of banana shakes.

If you commit you have to commit to fruit diets. You cant throw up, vomit, binge just because you had some chinese cooked food noodles in a moment of weakness. That will destroy your teeth times ten.

I can say I have tried many raw diets -all. The best diet for me is good old fashioned raw vegan. Greens Salads Fruits Seaweeds Crackers Olive oil cookies, dried mango, juices, smoothies , cakes, puddings. Fruits Veggies and GOURMET RAW...I love.

Some of us have complicated taste buds. Some of us dont and can eat simply. I still cant like a mango basil tomato salad dressing if I am not starving. too plain. I need my 5 flavors present.

There is nothing I or anyone can tell someone who is committed to the idea of fruitariansim. The ideal exists out there. But the reality is hard for those who choose it.

And yes there are dental issues in some, some of the time. Some deniers, some admitters, some who say we are all liars.

I am proof and so is someone close to me..that high fruit diets will hurt teeth. Every 5 years you need work, the whole mouth. And not just me, but someone close too. Same diet. YOu can blame this or that, what I was eating before, true, but if fruitarian is so healing...then why did my teeth all break and get worse?

when you are older, your teeth are weaker, sometimes takes years watching these cavities grow blacker instead of heal. Some have healed. But most have broken, fallen out, or just rotted. And you blame anything but the fruit, I have been there. When it happens to close people in my liufe, same thing, same diet, we put it together. There is truth in fruitarianism being REALLY BAD for teeth. SOME.

Its not one size fits all but there is a little common sense.

Mango the fruitarian, no teeth for example. Josh Rainbow fruitarian has no teeth and he is glad because they are weapons of anger he says. Its duh common sense.

You can be a fruitarian and have health. You just have to find out how. Maybe not so much acid mango unripe fruits? I dont know, maybe gallons of banana shakes, not that great of an idea. Or pineapple ...in large amounts all days. The DATES boxes of them..


Stop with the fad diets. Just go raw.

Raw Veggies
Raw Nuts
Raw fruits

and work from there what you like.

I LOVE VIKTORAS dont mess with Viktoras. I was just about to read NOTES and LETTERS from THE 21ST CENTURY

Now Viktoras, has no teeth as well. He has dentures. Correct me if I am wrong folks. I read that somewhere. But he was also bulimic...its strange this hole we have found ourselves in.





Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/01/2015 04:12PM by suvine.

Most cooked food men have all root canaled, 10 grand fake teeth so dont feel bad raw foodists. I had much work done by 20.

I think even DG may be missing one. Harley got all veneers, so did I. Its just the young ones we see on youtube with beautiful real teeth these days.

But if you have weak teeth, I would not suggest high fruit diets. BUT IF YOU MUST GO AHEAD.

People need to learn on their own. They will never listen. The ideal of fruitarianism is so beautiful and lofty.

But raw is very sexy too. Its heavenly.

When you find out what I have, it will be too late, so heed my warning. Keep the teeth. Eat greens. Not so much sweet all the time. Have savory meals. Balance. Also keep hydrated.

If you find the secret for success 20 plus decades RAW with no dental issues, please share!





Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/01/2015 04:34PM by suvine.

Speaking of teeth don't forget Genesis Sunfire. Doug Graham is missing several if I'm not mistaken. That's what gives me pause as if you read the book "Primitive Man" and the Weston Price stuff, tooth decay was virtually non-existent. I didn't know Vik had fake teeth, can someone confirm?

Suvine wrote:
But if you have weak teeth, I would not suggest high fruit diets

Tai:
Hi Suvine, the last two entries here are some of your most honest, richest entries I have read and I applaud you for your honesty.

Suvine:
When you find out what I have, it will be too late, so heed my warning. Keep the teeth. Eat greens. Not so much sweet all the time. Have savory meals. Balance. Also keep hydrated.

Tai:
Sometimes I think it's not so much the fault of fruit (as long as it's ripe and not dried, and appropriate to the body and season), as it is not getting enough minerals. For example, juicing 2 pounds of kale does wonders for me (with a twin gear juicer), but eating 2 pounds of kale does not. SOme of the salads you have posted look hard to digest.

For me, fruit is a means to an end. For example, sprouted black sesame is a medicinal food, but it's bitter and does not taste good, so I will eat it with some fruit. And the same with many bitter foods. I have some very bitter herbs, far more bitter than dandelions. Fruit goes great with very bitter herbs, at least for me and those around me. THe bitter and sour taste is so common in nature and it's these foods that are so medicinal and yet hard to swallow. Fruit makes it easier to swallow them and eat enough of them. And sweet fruit allows one to eat sour fruit. My passion fruit is just sour, it's not sweet. It's like mild to medium lemon juice, but it's fruity and floral in taste. I would never eat just plain passion fruit. But sweet fruit makes it delicious.

And some fruit is really neutral. LIke I have been drinking a lot of mexican lime juice (sweet lemons) and it's so mild and only slightly sweet. I buy these large purple grapes that are fully ripe but barely sweet. Or I make sure to make the final combination only slightly sweet. Like making fruit salads with a focus on tart berries with persimmon just to sweeten it, rather than eating persimmons straight up. The other day I made a blueberry smoothie and it was too sweet, so I cut it with 50% fresh grapefruit juice.

I am going to save these two posts of yours, Suvine. We have to learn from both the good and bad in life. You did a good deed by sharing. Thanks.

P.S. don't you have 3 kids or so? YOu would need to greatly remineralize on a high fruit diet with so many pregnancies.

NuNativs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
I
> didn't know Vik had fake teeth, can someone
> confirm?

No but they sure do look like it. If there are old photos of him smiling that would tell the tale.

If you look at Brian Clement's early pictures it's obvious he has fake teeth now, too.

We should keep adding to the list of the teeth problems of fruitarians and former fruitarian, IMO.

Robert Morse went through some pretty extreme dental surgery. As I recall he was getting dental implants but I never heard him say much more so I don't know if they were for individual areas or for the whole 9 yards. He talked funny for a really long time while he was getting the work done.

Another thing I noticed on people who ate fruitarian for extended periods is teeth very badly worn down to little Chicklet size. Off the top of my head I'm thinking of Tavis and that Gary guy that did a lot of videos making fun of Dan Mac Donald.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/01/2015 07:25PM by SueZ.

Morse too? jeez the little discussed dark side...

NuNativs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
"jeez the little discussed dark side..."


Some have talked about the horrible and expensive dental problems they've had on a high carb fruity diet. They usually try to blame it on having suddenly ceased taking proper care of their teeth once they went on that diet.

Did they think the diet would magically take care of their tooth cleaning tasks? Were they on too much of a sugar induced high to remember to take care of themselves?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/01/2015 10:08PM by SueZ.

Suvine: really excellent posts

Tai: when l went raw l was on a high mineral sprouted diet and also had about 10 pieces of farm fruit each day, but l got heaps of cavities. I continued eating fruit and got heaps more cavities and a few teeth taken out, and l was devastated. At that point l knew if l kept on going how l was going that l would have false teeth in the near future, so l gave up fruit. Later on l started having some fruit again, BUT l now use Perio which is an excellent toothpaste and haven't had anymore problems. Perio is worth every cent and is said to be the finest toothpaste available for destroying all the bacteria that causes tooth rot. Even better is said to be Perio mouth wash because it reaches in places that a tooth brush can't. Perio is worth the higher price.

www.thesproutarian.com

One thing l never have been able to grasp is why humans were designed so they couldn't grow a 3rd, 4th or 5th set of teeth if need be. As far as l am concerned, humans were always going to go down the path of processed foods and have tooth rot for all types of reasons, and various humans were always going to lose teeth from accidents etc.

All humans deserve to have teeth to eat with, so designing humans to grow extra sets would have been ideal imo. Living with false teeth or no teeth must be the pits.

www.thesproutarian.com

The thing that gets me is that in Weston Price's book, the Native peoples didn't have good oral hygienbe and yet their teeth were near perfect. They attribute that to fat soluable vitamins found in animal foods.

This guy says to have cured his and his daughters tooth decay with higher ammounts of animal foods. He believes it's near immposible on a vegan diet:
Cure Tooth Decay

The Sproutarian Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One thing l never have been able to grasp is why
> humans were designed so they couldn't grow a 3rd,
> 4th or 5th set of teeth if need be. As far as l am
> concerned, humans were always going to go down the
> path of processed foods and have tooth rot for all
> types of reasons, and various humans were always
> going to lose teeth from accidents etc.
>
> All humans deserve to have teeth to eat with, so
> designing humans to grow extra sets would have
> been ideal imo. Living with false teeth or no
> teeth must be the pits.

In Hilton Hotema's books he has numerous examples of people living to advanced ages that grew a third set of teeth. Perhaps the nutritional and regenerative environment has to be exemplary for this to take place...

TSM wrote:
when l went raw l was on a high mineral sprouted diet and also had about 10 pieces of farm fruit each day, but l got heaps of cavities.

Tai:
So sorry about that.

I want to explain about the 5 elements from Chinese medicine, specifically about earth and water.
[www.acupuncture.com]
When water is very deficient (kidneys and Urinary bladder), excess earth element can damage the water element.
Fruit and sweet things tonify the earth element.
So, yes I can understand how in some cases, eating 10 pieces of fruit daily is not appropriate.
Have you ever had comfrey leaf juice, TSM? One day, you should, although currently it's illegal in the US right now. But in some areas, it grows abundantly. Banning comfrey intake is like banning people from making mullein tea (another common herbal "weed". Comfrey leaf juice is such a classic "kidney" tonic. It's salty in flavor, which tonifies the water element.
Comfrey is a bone knitter and great for teeth.
I will never forget the first time I juiced comfrey and tasted the saltiness.

Anyway, so, yes, if someone is weak in the water element, best to avoid too much sweet flavor, but every person is unique and that's why it's best to go with your constitution rather than an outside theoretical book idea. Like one man at a fruitluck told me how chewing dates really hurts his teeth. He even went to a dentist for guidance on this and they were both puzzled. Teeth are a manifestion of the water element and again sweet will react negatively if water is deficient.

I never tried explaining this before, because some people might find this weird. YOu can use science to explain the nitty gritty details, but I am saying that there is something very primal about the five elements and the five flavors and five major yin organs.

TSM, it sounds to me like you had a major imbalance between the earth and water element and just strengthening the water element was called for, like you needed to tonify the kidney yin or kidney yang essence or both. Many black foods do this nicely, like black sesame, black rice, black lentils, black beans (all these foods you can eat raw sprouted, except black beans) and salty greens, like chard, comfrey, and beet greens. (as an aside, I once saw a video how RawGosia had an intense craving for cooked greens, which I believe was chard. SHe ate a bunch. I love her women's intuition and how she put herself above her philosophy. It's not that one can't eat chard raw. In the Gerson program, chard is juiced raw daily. But they also serve it cooked as well. Anyway, Rawgosia seems always happy. At least she listens to her body.) ANother food that helps the kidneys is Chinese yam. John Rose explained nicely the difference between true yams and sweet potatoes. So, true Chinese yam is a kidney tonic.
Seeds and nuts in the shape of a kidney help, like poppy and a small amount of cashews.
Poppy has more calcium than even sesame. TSM, when I took 30-50 g paste daily, my teeth felt stronger in a few days (after I once went a high fruit binge and ate too much LIiving INtentions dried cereal and dried fruit combo, like the cacao brazil nut with mulberry. Really tasty but bad for teeth)

Just because a fruit is sweet, doesn't mean that it can't help kidney essence, too. Goji berries are the classic kidney essence fruit (kidney, liver and lung yin tonic). If you had teeth problems, you would not chew them. Making a nice smoothie is good. The goji berry vine is very special. The root bark is a wonderful kidney yin tonic. The fruit is just a manifestion of the nature of this wonderful plant for kidney health. The new leaves are delightful to eat raw. It's easy to overdose on qoji berries, more is not always better. And this fruit shows that the 5 elements is much deeper than comparing sweet to salty, because qoji berries are sweet but they are mainly a kidney and liver yin tonic. Because qoji berries are a bit cloying and damp, they are contraindicated in spleen/stomach deficiency with dampness and loose stools. You see, so not everything sweet is good for the earth element. Dampness is not usually good for the earth element.

Let's talk about the earth element. The spleen and stomach are strengthened by fruit, sweet vegetables and grains, like rice (amazake is sweet). I see many people who have a weak and deficient earth element and I do use fruit, A LOT, even if the water element is weak too. Why? Because the spleen and stomach must be nourished first. So, once I strengthen the stomach, then I can give more kidney tonics. There are so many conditions to the spleen and stomach and please don't take this oversimplication to even begin to cover all the foods for the spleen and stomach.

I can't agree with Brian CLement that fruit must be avoided if you are sick, because some sickness is simply a weak and deficient stomach. If someone has both a weak stomach and deficient kidney essence, then a diet that tonifies both simultaneous is important because one tonic will not dominate the other.

Since constipation is such a huge problem among SAD eaters, I use fruit a lot in my protocols. But especially with weakenend people, who have lumbar aches, leg aches, weak teeth, hair issues, but with fine digestion, then a full on kidney essence protocol should be followed.

I don't have time to explain more and deeper at the moment.