about same amount of carbs consisting of starch and sugar

starch is converted to sugar in the body

bananas bad-sprouts good regarding "sugar"? illogical

Lentil sprouts will be still growing when you are eating them
The ripe banana is moving into a state of decay, spoilage, deterioration, death
Life vs death
I guess science does not have a way yet to measure life in living sprouts and veggies.
I will pick the lentil sprouts over the banana.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/2015 02:38AM by RawPracticalist.

RawPracticalist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lentil sprouts will be still growing when you are
> eating them
> The ripe banana is moving into a state of decay,
> spoilage, deterioration, death
> Life vs death
> I guess science does not have a way yet to measure
> life in living sprouts and veggies.
> I will pick the lentil sprouts over the banana.

what you have said has nothing to do with my point
as well as being bizarre

The title of your thread is lentil sprouts vs bananas
So I am giving another angle to be fair

My point pertains to people who criticize fruit and sugar BUT


bananas and sprouts have about the same amount of carbs and fiber
more starch in the lentil sprouts
and more sugar in the bananas

but the starch is converted via digestion to sugar.
there is no advantage to ingesting more starch, and there's no disadvantage to ingesting more sugar. the sugar ends up in the bloodstream either way.


the sprout and grass eaters are sugar eaters !

900 calories of each

Bananas 230g carbs 26g fiber 54 g starch 123 g sugars
Lentil sprouts 190g carbs 17g fiber 160g starch 5g sugars

>bananas and sprouts have about the same amount of carbs and fiber

Is the same amount same as the same quality?

<<<the sprout and grass eaters are sugar eaters !>>>

Sprout and grass eaters are NOT Eating Food that wants Humans to Eat It!

Sprout and grass eaters are NOT Eating Food that has a Symbiotic Relationship with Humans!

fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> the sprout and grass eaters are sugar eaters !
>
> 900 calories of each
>
> Bananas 230g carbs 26g fiber 54 g starch
> 123 g sugars
> Lentil sprouts 190g carbs 17g fiber 160g starch 5g
> sugars


Fresh,l would like to see a more advanced analysis of the sugars. I used to react badly to bananas and sweet fruits for years, and l do feel it was certain types of sugars in these foods. Maybe fructose or other sugars were to blame. The point is that l think we need to look at this more deeply than just sugars, ie, what type of sugars?

www.thesproutarian.com

Hard to find info on it.

Point is unless u are suez or Stephanie Person, we are ALL eating a lot of sugar even while claiming not to, or that it is bad. Starch is complex sugar. The claim that it's digested slower is a myth. U cant healthfully thrive on high protein. It's either carb or fat.

Fruit bashing based on sugar content is detrimental and false

There are many reasons ppl don't do well on fruit not related to fruit.

More honesty and logic and consistency would be good, esp from people like b Clem. I sent email to him re his current diet. I doubt I will get response.

Not all starches are equal.

Resistant starch, found in lentils and buckwheat not only lowers blood sugar and promotes insulin sensitivity but it also feeds probiotic bacteria in the gut.

Some starches are in fact digested slowly.

[www.news.iastate.edu]

[lowcarbdiets.about.com] - "On the other hand, if grains or legumes remain whole, such as beans, brown rice or whole barley, the starch is broken down into sugars much more slowly, and some never is turned into sugar at all, but reaches the large intestine intact - this is called resistant starch."

I don't eat sprouted lentils for carbs. I eat them for protein.

One cup of lentil sprouts is 7 g of protein and 14% iron. For about the same calories (89), one banana only has 1.1 g of protein and only one percent of iron. THis makes a big difference to women, say when they need to rebuild their blood every month.

Anyway, most vegetarians and vegans would never think of having to choose between bananas and sprouted lentils. Most would have both.

I don't think Fresh is wrong here, he makes a valid point. But the point of lentils is protein not starch. Ask Patrick Baboumian who won the world record in yoke carrying as a vegan. He gets his protein from legumes.

JTP makes a valid point, too, about starch.

I like John's view to see what is symbiotic and most natural. That's a healthy way of looking at what is the best food to eat. Yet, I think sprouts are symbiotic. Seeds come from fruit and the whole package is symbiotic with humans and other animals. Legumes are seeds from the fruit pod of a plant. Just as tomatoes are the fruit of a plant, so are legume pods, like pea pods, the fruit of a plant. THe plant wants to spread its seeds around. IT does that through a symbiotic exchange with animals and humans.

I had a cat once that loved bell peppers. One time a big bell pepper plant grew up where she did her business out in the side yard. She ate her own bell peppers that she grew.

Every time I grow sprouts, there are always some seeds stuck to the bowls and jars. I add water and throw them in the garden where they grow. Unless someone just throws their extra seeds in the trash, the extra seeds would normally land in the ground. That seems symbiotic to me. I have black amaranth growing every year and all over my yard from just throwing out those extra seeds.

I can't state that grass is symbiotic with humans, but all kinds of animals eat it and it's a proven medicinal food for humans. Perhaps the symbiosis is its green beauty and the beauty and softness ensures that humans will plant it in great quanities for beautiful lawns. And in small quanitities, humans will use it for food.

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Some starches are in fact digested slowly.
>
> [www.news.iastate.edu]
> antstarch
>
> [lowcarbdiets.about.com]
> h.htm - "On the other hand, if grains or legumes
> remain whole, such as beans, brown rice or whole
> barley, the starch is broken down into sugars much
> more slowly, and some never is turned into sugar
> at all, but reaches the large intestine intact -
> this is called resistant starch."

the glycemic load of banana or rice is the same.

fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> jtprindl Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Some starches are in fact digested slowly.
> >
> >
> [www.news.iastate.edu]
>
> > antstarch
> >
> >
> [lowcarbdiets.about.com]
>
> > h.htm - "On the other hand, if grains or
> legumes
> > remain whole, such as beans, brown rice or
> whole
> > barley, the starch is broken down into sugars
> much
> > more slowly, and some never is turned into
> sugar
> > at all, but reaches the large intestine intact
> -
> > this is called resistant starch."
>
> the glycemic load of banana or rice is the same.


Not according to this list: [www.health.harvard.edu]

Banana, ripe (16 glycemic load per serving, 120 grams which is one banana)
Lentils, average (5 glycemic load per serving, which is 150 grams)

Using CRON-O-Meter as a caloric scale, this means 530 calories of lentils has three times less of an impact on glycemic load than 100 calories of banana. Furthermore, contrary to what you posted, not all starch is converted into sugar. Resistant starches (e.g. lentils) lower blood sugar while fruit raises blood sugar. I'm not against fruit, just pointing out the flaws in your argument.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/16/2015 05:10AM by jtprindl.

>
> Not according to this list:
> [www.health.harvard.edu]
> mic_index_and_glycemic_load_for_100_foods
>
> Banana, ripe (16 glycemic load per serving, 120
> grams which is one banana)
> Lentils, average (5 glycemic load per serving,
> which is 150 grams)
>

"On the other hand, if grains or legumes remain whole, such as beans, brown rice or whole barley, the starch is broken down into sugars much more slowly, and some nev..."


no. you said rice above, so I used rice, which is 16, just like bananas.
not lentils


"Resistant starches (e.g. lentils) lower blood sugar while fruit raises blood sugar. I'm not against fruit, just pointing out the flaws in your argument"

not relevant to original point.

"no. you said rice above, so I used rice, which is 16, just like bananas."

The quote you're referring to mentions grains and legumes. Lentils are a legume. Plus, you created this thread specifically for lentils versus bananas.

"not relevant to original point."

Well, my original point was that not all starches are equal, so yeah it kinda is. Bananas raise blood sugar more than three-fold compared to lentils with 5x less calories.

general points to consider

slower is not better than faster

raising blood sugar more is not worse

ingesting juiced sprouts is very similar to eating fruit was my point

because some starch is resistant may just mean that one needs to eat more which is not better.

still need same calories

"because some starch is resistant may just mean that one needs to eat more which is not better."

That's not at all what it means, it's just has different effects on the body.

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] (Resistant starch: metabolic effects and potential health benefits)

"ingesting juiced sprouts is very similar to eating fruit was my point"

No it's not, not even close, plus this comment doesn't make sense because nobody juices sprouted lentils. Sprouts that are commonly juiced at HHI are sunflower greens, pea sprouts, and wheatgrass.

"raising blood sugar more is not worse"

Consistently elevated blood sugar can lead to hyperglycemia (pre-diabetes) and ultimately type-2 diabetes. Also, for diabetics, higher blood sugar is obviously worse. Also, if you think raising blood sugar more isn't worse, why did you bring up glycemic loads in the first place?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/16/2015 06:16AM by jtprindl.

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "because some starch is resistant may just mean
> that one needs to eat more which is not better."
>
> That's not at all what it means, it's just has
> different effects on the body.

yes it does. it means that the caloric value will be lower.

>
> [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]
> (Resistant starch: metabolic effects and potential
> health benefits)
>
> "ingesting juiced sprouts is very similar to
> eating fruit was my point"
>
> No it's not, not even close, plus this comment
> doesn't make sense because nobody juices sprouted
> lentils. Sprouts that are commonly juiced at HHI
> are sunflower greens, pea sprouts, and
> wheatgrass.

and the nutritional profile is likely similar for those.


>
> "raising blood sugar more is not worse"
>
> Consistently elevated blood sugar can lead to
> hyperglycemia (pre-diabetes) and ultimately type-2
> diabetes. Also, for diabetics, higher blood sugar
> is obviously worse. Also, if you think raising
> blood sugar more isn't worse, why did you bring up
> glycemic loads in the first place?

can you comprehend that "raising" blood sugar is different from "consistently elevated" blood sugar? LOL

has temp inhabited your body again?

more to the point, plenty of people juice their sprouts and grasses because it is impossible to eat enough to satiate (especially those who claim to depend on sprouts) and my point is even stronger because the nutritional profile that I posted is for sprouts; for juiced sprouts the nutritional profile would be
relatively

HIGHER in sugar
LOWER in fiber
LOWER in starch

and the only reason the juices don't seem too sweet is because of the bitter components, just like adding celery to a banana smoothie.

and bottom line, we need calories from somewhere, primarily fats or carbs.
so the fruit limiters need to eat potentially excess fat or protein.

your diet is one of the better versions , but most are not.

<<<can you comprehend that "raising" blood sugar is different from "consistently elevated" blood sugar? LOL

has temp inhabited your body again?>>>

lol

"yes it does. it means that the caloric value will be lower."

After looking into it, we digest half the calories of resistant starch (2 calories per gram) as opposed to 4 calories per gram from other starches. So you intake less calories but get filled up quicker. Unless you're under the false assumption that someone is promoting a resistant starch-based and will therefore be lacking in calories, what's the issue?

"and the nutritional profile is likely similar for those."

"more to the point, plenty of people juice their sprouts and grasses because it is impossible to eat enough to satiate (especially those who claim to depend on sprouts) and my point is even stronger because the nutritional profile that I posted is for sprouts; for juiced sprouts the nutritional profile would be"

Sunflower greens, pea shoots, and wheatgrass juice contain very little to no starch. Not a lot of people, if any, use sprout juice as a primary source of calories, they do it because it's rich in phytochemicals and enzymes and a very healthy habit to partake in. Even juiced sprouts are quite low in sugar and certainly nowhere near the levels of fruit.

"so the fruit limiters need to eat potentially excess fat or protein."

What's excess? Plus, the same exact thing could be said about fruit-based diets, that they are potentially eating excess sugar. Many times, pre-diabetes has no symptoms.

Anyways, this thread is about lentil sprouts versus bananas. Again, lentil sprouts are rich in resistant starch which has a beneficial effect on blood sugar (along with many other health benefits), which invalidates your primary reason for claiming it's illogical to avoid fruit and eat lentil sprouts. Furthermore, you brought up glycemic load for reasons you still haven't answered, but lentils effect on blood sugar is three times less than that of bananas. Even if we only count half the calories due to the resistant starch, 250+ calories of lentils has a glycemic load of 5 while 100 calories of bananas has a glycemic load of 16.

A sorry attempt to bash sprouts and Brian Clement. That being said, thank you for creating the thread, it gave me the opportunity to learn more.

jtprindl Wrote:


why did I bring up glycemic load?

you are funny.

I really don't care about glycemic load.
I brought it up SOLELY because YOU said the below.
I never would have, otherwise.

>>>>Some starches are in fact digested slowly.
[www.news.iastate.edu]
[lowcarbdiets.about.com] - "On the other hand, if grains or legumes remain whole, such as beans, brown rice or whole barley, the starch is broken down into sugars much more slowly, and some never is turned into sugar at all, but reaches the large intestine intact - this is called resistant starch."



-------------------------------------------------------
> "yes it does. it means that the caloric value will
> be lower."
>
> After looking into it, we digest half the calories
> of resistant starch (2 calories per gram) as
> opposed to 4 calories per gram from other
> starches. So you intake less calories but get
> filled up quicker.

It's not about getting filled up


Unless you're under the false
> assumption that someone is promoting a resistant
> starch-based and will therefore be lacking in
> calories, what's the issue?
>
> "and the nutritional profile is likely similar for
> those."
>
> "more to the point, plenty of people juice their
> sprouts and grasses because it is impossible to
> eat enough to satiate (especially those who claim
> to depend on sprouts) and my point is even
> stronger because the nutritional profile that I
> posted is for sprouts; for juiced sprouts the
> nutritional profile would be"
>
> Sunflower greens, pea shoots, and wheatgrass juice
> contain very little to no starch.


sunflower greens contain 10, 15,5 g fiber, starch sugar
for same calories I showed earlier, which is not little to no starch.

wheatgrass juice contains 10, 30, 120g !! fiber starch sugar
for same calories as I reported initially.

Not a lot of
> people, if any, use sprout juice as a primary
> source of calories, they do it because it's rich
> in phytochemicals and enzymes and a very healthy
> habit to partake in. Even juiced sprouts are quite
> low in sugar and certainly nowhere near the levels
> of fruit.


doesn't matter how you portray it.

brian and others bash fruit because of the sugar.
they say to eat and juice greens
greens contain a lot of sugar/"carbs"


>
> "so the fruit limiters need to eat potentially
> excess fat or protein."
>
> What's excess? Plus, the same exact thing could be
> said about fruit-based diets, that they are
> potentially eating excess sugar. Many times,
> pre-diabetes has no symptoms.
>


I would say in most cases excess fat/ protein is more detrimental and that raw sugars are handled fine. I have not seen evidence otherwise.

> Anyways, this thread is about lentil sprouts
> versus bananas. Again, lentil sprouts are rich in
> resistant starch which has a beneficial effect on
> blood sugar

I do not agree with your characterization "beneficial effect"


(along with many other health
> benefits), which invalidates your primary reason
> for claiming it's illogical to avoid fruit and eat
> lentil sprouts.

I was only saying that people say to avoid fruit and eat and juice greens which contain plenty of sugar and or starch.



Furthermore, you brought up
> glycemic load for reasons you still haven't
> answered

answered above.

, but lentils effect on blood sugar is
> three times less than that of bananas. Even if we
> only count half the calories due to the resistant
> starch, 250+ calories of lentils has a glycemic
> load of 5 while 100 calories of bananas has a
> glycemic load of 16.
>

again i don't care about glycemic load, I was merely responding to your invalid factoid that you grabbed about rice and beans.

and "effect on blood sugar" cannot be analyzed in isolation - all factors must be considered including overall diet and quantity of food intake.


> A sorry attempt to bash sprouts and Brian Clement.
> That being said, thank you for creating the
> thread, it gave me the opportunity to learn more.

that's good that you learned more. me too.

Not really bashing sprouts. exposing the reality of the macronutrients, especially when juiced. when eaten, not really an issue.

brian clement, I don't know that name, brian clement, brian clement.

OH!! brian clement! you mean the guy that just put out a book called sugar danger with junk food next to fruit on the cover implying that fruit is bad? based on his shoddy science that he only sells on his website since he doesn't want others to review his book and expose the falsity of it?

"I would say in most cases excess fat/ protein is more detrimental and that raw sugars are handled fine. I have not seen evidence otherwise."

What is excess? Also, you have never demonstrated any evidence that "high-fat" raw food diets exhibit any negative health effects. You're gonna need more than your biased opinion if you want to be taken seriously.

"I do not agree with your characterization "beneficial effect""

Science doesn't agree with you, but that's not my concern.

"sunflower greens contain 10, 15,5 g fiber, starch sugar
for same calories I showed earlier, which is not little to no starch.

wheatgrass juice contains 10, 30, 120g !! fiber starch sugar
for same calories as I reported initially."

What is your source? Wheatgrass juice contains zero fiber and nobody is going to drink 900 calories worth of wheatgrass juice in one sitting. Wouldn't even happen in a month.

"again i don't care about glycemic load, I was merely responding to your invalid factoid that you grabbed about rice and beans."

What was invalid about it? I shared a general quote that stated "if grains or legumes remain whole, such as beans, brown rice or whole barley, the starch is broken down into sugars much more slowly, and some never is turned into sugar at all" in response to your false claim that it's a myth that starches are broken down more slowly. You then ignored lentils, beans, and barley which have lower glycemic loads and cherry-picked brown rice because it had the same glycemic load as bananas (despite needing more calories to achieve the same effect). But this thread is about lentils, so....

Anyways, I'm not endorsing the Hippocrates diet and I certainly don't agree with everything Brian Clement says. I was simply pointing out how some of your claims were incorrect. It'd be interesting to hear Clement's views on the matter of starches converting into glucose.

I contacted HHI through Facebook about the issue...

JTP: Why does Brian Clement bash fruit because of its sugar content and promote sprouted foods such as quinoa, amaranth, lentils, etc., which are rich sources of starch which is then converted into sugar in the body?

HHI: Brian Clement doesn't "bash fruit" in fact two days a week we have an extensive fruit buffet at the institute, however people with certain health challenges do not improve when they eat foods with high sugar content and it is usually best if these people stay away from fruit and high starch food items.

I look forward to asking Brian directly in the future.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2015 06:42PM by jtprindl.

I believe it's the protein component of sprouts that make them a better-balanced food than bananas. (Tai alluded to this in his own way.) Sugar or starch (carbs of all kinds) need to be balanced by protein, and vice versa. If I eat a banana on an empty stomach I'm still hungering a bit later. With sprouts, they keep me going for some time. But both in the same meal is best.

Others would have a different response. You know, "biochemical individuality" and all that.

I think most people will do better on at least 30% fat because fat is crucial for our brain and hormones. Not only on higher fat but on higher protein than what is found on fruit-based diets because fruits are low in various amino acids. Amino acids are the precursors to neurotransmitters and hormones. Omega-3's have so many benefits from lengthening telomeres, improving cognitive functioning, being highly anti-inflammatory, etc. From my knowledge, the best vegan sources of amino acids are chlorella, spirulina, hemp seeds, sprouted lentils and bee pollen.

> From my knowledge, the best vegan sources of amino acids are chlorella, spirulina, hemp seeds, sprouted lentils and bee pollen.

These are foods not easily available to the Regular Joe The Plumber The Vegan. There ought to be some local foods that are good source of amino acids.

RawPracticalist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > From my knowledge, the best vegan sources of
> amino acids are chlorella, spirulina, hemp seeds,
> sprouted lentils and bee pollen.
>
> These are foods not easily available to the
> Regular Joe The Plumber The Vegan. There ought to
> be some local foods that are good source of amino
> acids.


Lentils can be grown in most parts of North America. And processed and placed in the stores. All Joe Plumber/Vegan has to do is add water and watch them sprout. As for hempseed, it is legal to grow it in Canada, from where it is shipped to stores all over the USA and available on the internet. I order a partly defatted hemp product in the form of flakes. I think it's pretty raw, as far as I know. In any case, it is way better than those oily "hemp hearts". It is criminal that we can't grow non-marijuana hemp in our own back yards, gather the seeds and sprout them.

No wonder our societies have gone utterly to the dogs. Sprouting a locally grown legume is hard work! LOL!

jt wrote:

<<<I think most people will do better on at least 30% fat because fat is crucial for our brain and hormones. Not only on higher fat but on higher protein than what is found on fruit-based diets because fruits are low in various amino acids. ...From my knowledge, the best vegan sources of amino acids are chlorella, spirulina, hemp seeds, sprouted lentils and bee pollen.>>>

If we follow DG's 811 fruit-based diet guidelines where most of our calories are coming from fruit, as they should since we are primates and, therefore, Frugivores, we have to consume ~2 pounds of Leafy Greens to reach the 10% Protein ratio and Leafy Greens for humans are the best vegan sources of amino acids!!! As long as we are Eating ~2 pounds of Leafy Greens every day, there is NO need to consume chlorella, spirulina, hemp seeds, sprouted lentils and bee pollen!!!

This is the same MISTAKE temp made as he NEVER figured out how to reach that 10% Protein level by Eating ~2 pounds of Leafy Greens every day, which by the way is TWICE as much Protein that's in Mother's Milk and that's when we double our weight within 6 to 9 months. Yes, Mother's Milk is much higher in Fat, but an infant's needs for Carbohydrates are very low since they are NOT moving around and using it as fuel. I think fresh was right when he said, “has temp inhabited your body again?”!

Having said all of this, I don't think 10% Fat is optimal for some people, but since so many people have problems with their Livers, they do better on a Low Fat Diet in the beginning. But once their Livers are functioning better, they too can function better with more Fat and as long as we are consuming adequate Calories, that's NOT a problem. However, if someone is trying to lose weight, especially excess Fat, by Eating Less Calories, they have to reduce their Fat Intake to ensure they don't lose any Lean Body Mass. In fact, there is an inverse ratio as to how much Fat they can Eat and how much Fat they can SAFELY lose! The only other way to protect their Lean Body Mass is to Consume Excess Protein and Consuming Excess Protein is NOT Safe!!!

As you can see, we must NOT give "blanket recommendations" for Fat %s because it all depends on the individual. We must also keep in mind that anything over 30% Fat is potentially dangerous because we can Lose Lean Body Mass when Gluconeogenesis kicks in and Ketosis is ONLY an Emergency Mode that should ONLY be used in Emergency Situations!

[plantpositive.squarespace.com]





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2015 04:22PM by John Rose.

"Leafy Greens for humans are the best vegan sources of amino acids!!! As long as we are Eating ~2 pounds of Leafy Greens every day, there is NO need to consume chlorella, spirulina, hemp seeds, sprouted lentils and bee pollen!!!"


Chlorella = 60% protein
Spirulina = 60-70% protein
Bee pollen = 34% protein
Lentils = 24% protein
Hemp seeds = 20% protein

It's not all about the protein percentage or reaching the RDA but also about the amino acid profile.

"As you can see, we must NOT give "blanket recommendations" for Fat %s because it all depends on the individual. We must also keep in mind that anything over 30% Fat is potentially dangerous because we can Lose Lean Body Mass when Gluconeogenesis kicks in and Ketosis is ONLY an Emergency Mode that should ONLY be used in Emergency Situations!"

Who gave blanket recommendations? Please provide evidence to back up your claim that anything over 30% fat is potentially dangerous. Also please show that the amount of lean body mass lost, if any, has any negative health effects.

Ketosis is NOT Ketoacidosis. Benign dietary ketosis is a controlled, insulin regulated process which results in a mild release of fatty acids and ketone body production in response to low carbohydrate intake, and higher fat consumption. Ketoacidosis is a condition in which abnormal quantities of ketones are produced in an unregulated biochemical situation. In order to reach a state of ketoacidosis, the body has to be in a state of not producing enough insulin to regulate the flow of fatty acids and the creation of ketone bodies.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2015 05:09PM by jtprindl.