There are vegan DHA supplements. You can make your EPA from 2 tbsp of ground flax + keeping your omega6 intake at between 2:1 and 4:1.

BTW I learned recently that blue-green algae isn't algae at all. It isn't even in the plant kingdom. It is cyanobacteria. It is thought that the chloroplast is an ancient cyanobacteria that got trapped in an early eukaryotic cell to form the first plant. In a similar way, a bacteria was thought to get trapped in another early cell, becoming the first mitochondria.

Mitochondria (in animal cells) and chloroplasts (in plant cells) have their own DNA, separate from the parent cell.

Taylor, I wish you all the best. Really, it's often hard for me to keep in mind the more important things in life and follow what I know yet sometimes don't feel in the moment. I wish you wisdom in dealing with things that confront your life.

Bryan, I support you in this. Mike, you aren't addressing Bryan's comments and questions to you.



This way is not compatible with Zen practice. This way IS Zen practice. - Dr. Doug Graham

Nothing whatsoever should be attached to. - Buddha

Hi TroySantos,

I don't understand what Bryan is talking about.
He is acting like Rosie O'Donnell and Donald
Trump combined.

Mike

Mike,

I love that you are here defending yourself. People are getting to see first hand how transparent your efforts are at making a smoke screen. The fact that you don't see this (how transparent you are) is making me wonder what all the supplementary DHA and EPA is doing to your cognitive function.

I am loving how you are using the classic tactics of supplement salesman, the tactic of fear to sell your product. I love this quote:

Quote

** Our brain and eyes are over 60% fat, mostly DHA and EPA. **

This must mean that if we don't get dietary EPA and DHA, we going to lose brain function. Well Mike, you're getting a lot of dietary EPA and DHA, and it doesn't seem to be helping you.

Mike, I don't care if you eat this stuff, and if other people want to eat this stuff too. I do care that you are attempting to profit from people on this forum with your now-exposed tactics of affiliate marketing. As people get a chance to observe your tactic, you might find that sales from this forum might shrink for you.

If you want to advertise, buy an advertisement from John. Fred did this. So can you.

"...you're getting a lot of dietary EPA and DHA, and it doesn't seem to be helping you."

take the high road for once. name calling isn't tolerated here, right? as a mod you could be setting a better example.
everything else aside bryan, this is the aspect of your posts that i most take issue with. you ARE in a position of power here, don't abuse it.

Thanks Coco!

I still don't understand what Bryan is talking
about. Bryan, are you saying our brain and eyes
are not made of DHA and EPA? Are you saying that
DHA and EPA are found in vegan foods?

If a woman is pregnant with a child, and she
wants to eat raw vegan, what is your advice Bryan?

DHA (short for docosahexaenoic acid) is found in
every cell in our bodies. It is critical for brain,
eye and central nervous system development and functioning.

During pregnancy, developing babies rely on their
mothers to get needed DHA. Since DHA is derived
from the foods we eat, the content of DHA in a
mother's diet determines the amount of DHA passed
on to her developing baby.

I do not feel it is safe to eat raw vegan during
pregnancy without either a DHA supplement or Klamath
algae. Yes, I sell the Klamath algae because it is
one of the most important foods on Earth, it is the
ONLY raw vegan food with DHA & EPA, and I eat it every
day.

This thread is about Omega-3 fats and I have been
on topic the whole time.

Mike



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/2007 02:57AM by Mike.

Coco,

I am curious, how would you describe Mike's behavior since his fingers were caught in the raw cookie jar?

bryan, let's stay on topic. what i am discussing is You, not mike. mike is another subject, if he has broken the rules here, and from what i saw in that thread it actually was about bananas, then that is between the two of you and should be discussed in pm's, should it not? from what i understand that's how it's been dealt with with others. if you really feel that he's breaking the rules and violating the terms of use on this site then ban him. this public decrying of all things mike, the name calling and so on is not the behavior that's expected of a mod. yes, you are only human but you voluntarily took on the role of moderator on this site and as such there are rules and guidelines for you to follow as well, ie not indulging in personal mudslinging even if and when provoked. it sets a bad example and a bad tone for the entire site. i think it was unneccessary to insert an insult in bright red into someone else's post. just delete what is against the rules, let the poster know and be done with it. using the enforcement of certain rules as a means of announcing your personal dislike for someone else is petty and dirty pool as far as i'm concerned. i expect better of you, rise to the occasion.

the two of you are like brutes in the school yard. get over it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/2007 04:49AM by coco.

eta, you know, no one can even go to the link that you are quoting as mike's
"hand in the raw cookie jar" and using as your validation of this onslaught because you've gone and deleted it.
here is my final thought on the matter. you seem to think that someone else'e perceived bad behavior justifies your own. just because you feel that someone else is being "bad" doesn't give you free license to be bad yourself. then you are just as guilty as what you are accusing them of and have no right to be any more upset or angry with them than you are at yourself. and here it is a case of someone posting something that you feel doesn't belong here and you following it up with insults and name calling. really, where do you get off?

Coco,

Why do you expect better of me than what you expect of yourself? Can you truthfully say that you have never directed "name calling" towards me? In fact, my discussion of Mike is about his observable behavior, not some inherent quality of Mike that he has no control over (that's what I think of when I use the term "name calling".

I did ask Mike to quit his behavior over private messages. That didn't work. I've asked him to change his behavior over the forum. That didn't work. Taking out the SPAM in his message is well within the purview of my duties as moderator. You view this action as an insult, my intention was to let Mike know in no uncertain terms that this was unacceptable behavior. And to some extent, it has worked, as he has no longer published any links to his website.

I am enjoying watching what Mike will do next. I said this in an earlier message about how I was loving this interaction. People are getting to see a side of Mike that he normally doesn't share with the forum. As Mike uses the typical tactics of supplement salespeople, I will be here to point this behavior out to the members of this forum. I suspect that people observing this behavior might acquire an immunity to the fear promoting supplement salespeople.

You defended Mike when you thought his position was defensible. But after his fingers were caught in the raw cookie jar you are wisely no longer defending his position. It was never about the bananas, that was Mike's attempt at a smoke screen. It was about making money from the members of the forum based on the advice he was supplying. I revealed the mechanism for his profiteering. If you can't see this, perhaps some dietary EPA or DHA will do the trick.

By the way, I've only deleted links to Mike's website for the last 90 days worth of posts. The older ones I've left behind. For the posts in the last 90 days, they can still be found in Google's cache. Here is an example of an older URL. As I was deleting those links Mike published over the last 90 days, I found 3 different mechanism that Mike used to convey his affiliate ID with the vendors of the various products. With Natural cellular defense, the URL itself contained his affiliate ID, rather than using the sophisticated "302 Document Moved" technique used with E3live. The URL is "[www.mywaiora.com]; in this message. Compare what you see when you use that URL, verus a naked "[www.mywaiora.com"];. There was another website that Mike referred people here to about an ice cream maker, where the affiliate ID is part of the host name "[therawdiet.veebees.hop.clickbank.net];, but ultimately gets converted to the arument section of the URL "[veebee.eu];. Note that just using "[veebee.eu]; gives you the same webpage, but Mike doesn't get the credit.

Mikes been busy making money here on the forum.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/2007 06:02AM by Bryan.

Coco,

I don't consider what Mike did as "bad". He has his point of view, which is to make a living, and he is just pursuing his best interests. In that same regard, what I did wasn't "bad". I have my point of view, which is to not allow free advertising here on the forum. If Mike really believes in his product, he will buy advertising from John and its a done deal. Others have tried to use this forum for free advertising, and many of those people are now paying customers to John, helping John pay for the internet services and computer rentals to run this free website. If Mike wants to contribute in this fashion to the forum, I fully support him in this.

below a short quote from a long article at

[www.chelationtherapyonline.com]


The best thing that can be said about alpha-linolenic acid is that it has a neutralizing or balancing effect against the overconsumption of linoleic acid found in vegetable oils. Since vegetable oil consumption can lead to numerous health problems, alpha-linolenic acid can be useful in reversing or preventing these problems. The reason why flaxseed oil has been shown to be useful for so many health problems is because vegetable oils cause so many. Flaxseed can counterbalance these effects. In so doing, however, the body must suffer the ravages of internal warfare.

So in one respect, flaxseed oil can be very useful. But as a consequence, the body must suffer with side effects that can be every bit as destructive as a prescription drug. In most cases, alpha-linolenic acid supplementation is unnecessary because there are other ways to bring the essential fatty ac­ids in our bodies into balance without causing further harm.

Since alpha-linolenic acid is extracted from flaxseed, it is considered a "natural" substance and, therefore, regu­lated as a dietary supplement. Supplements, for the most part, are relatively harmless. But because flaxseed oil is readily available to anyone, and because it is recommended for the treatment of just about every ailment from stomach ulcers to kidney disease, it is easy to take too much, and instead of suffering from an excess of omega-6, like most everyone else, you may suffer from an excess of omega-3. The effects can be just as bad, if not worse.

DANGERS OF FLAXSEED OIL
Heart Disease

There is a great deal of evidence on flaxseed oil which suggest that it isn't the best thing to be eating in its concen­trated, refined state.

Alpha-linolenic acid from flaxseed affects the liver's ability to process certain nutrients. For example, it inhibits the production of enzymes necessary to synthesize choles­terol. Some people may consider this a positive effect be­cause it lowers the body's total cholesterol level. Others question any substance that stifles the body's normal meta­bolic processes. Cholesterol which is formed in the liver is not the same as the cholesterol that clogs the arteries. So inhibiting the liver's production of cholesterol does not af­fect cardiovascular health. The cholesterol that contributes to plaque in the arteries is oxidized cholesterol. Non-oxidized cholesterol does not clog arteries, but is used in cell mem­branes. nerve tissue, and as part of the brain, and therefore is an important and necessary component of our bodies.

"Why do you expect better of me than what you expect of yourself?"
i am not a moderator on this site, i didn't volunteer for a position of power here, i can't insert and delete things directly into other people's posts. but you can and do. of course i expect better of you than other posters here, that is the nature of moderating. i realize that it is a big job and as much as i appreciate the time and effort involved in moderating You Volunteered for it and it's not a license to be a jerk.
"Can you truthfully say that you have never directed "name calling" towards me?"
i have no qualms about telling you that i often think your Behavior is petty, snide, arrogant, indignantly righteous and bullyish. i have no knowledge of who you are, only how you act and if you feel that i have called you names so be it. that's what i think about your behavoir sometimes, dude you're rude; "If you can't see this, perhaps some dietary EPA or DHA will do the trick. " right back atcha.
"I did ask Mike to quit his behavior over private messages. That didn't work. [etc]"
"he has no longer published any links to his website."
so he is or he isn't doing the thing that you don't want him to do? if he isn't why are you still provoking the situation? ah yes, because "I am enjoying watching what Mike will do next." bryan, this whole situation smacks of a petty personal vendetta to me. when knowingly provoking a situation to see how ugly you can get it to be you end up just as dirty as the other person involved.
"Taking out the SPAM in his message is well within the purview of my duties as moderator." and is inserting something personally insulting to mike into His post a part of those duties as well?
"my intention was to let Mike know in no uncertain terms that this was unacceptable behavior." your intention appears to have been to let everyone else know your opinion of mike. if you want to let mike know what you think tell Him instead of making a public announcement. yes, i expect a little diplomacy from you in regards to your duty as moderator. yes, i do. and no, i don't expect you to involve the entire site when You can't seem to resolve this kind of issue with another poster in private. if someone won't behave, ban them, don't call them out to the school yard for fistycuffs. come on.
"You defended Mike when you thought his position was defensible. But after his fingers were caught in the raw cookie jar you are wisely no longer defending his position." i wasn't addressing the situation with mike in these past few posts, they have been about you. you and mike are two separate issues that i can distinguish between but you seem set on blurring the lines between. it is not about mike and your issues with him, this is about your practices as a moderator.
as far as mike goes, i still haven't seen the post in the thread that started all of this, other posts may exist but they aren't the one that you keep quoting as being "hand in the cookie jar", that one has conveniently disappeared. you want to have your word taken for that and so does mike and you both have a lot invested in being believed, apparently. i choose to side with neither of you without any proof In That Thread. if the ads aren't ok, they shouldn't be there, simply take them out, no need for leaving your own type of personal bryan SPAM behind. but there are still others with links in their signatures for personal sites, etc. if this is truly the rule it should be so for all. aside from mike's posts, yes i think his behavior has been juvenile. engaging with you has provoked things with you and now you're both wrapped up in your little pissing contest to see who will come out on top. BOTH of you following eachother around into threads and posting neg-o crap back and forth, it's ridiculous. feigning innocence and acting like neither of you have Any idea why the other is upset. you're both to blame for that. you should both cut it out. unfortunately you are BOTH the types of boys who can't stand to admit that you were the least bit wrong, appologize and move on. i have a small son, i recognize the behavior. both of you two, cut it out, grow up and move on. geesh.

bryan, may i take this opportunity to validate you by saying that while i often don't agree with much of what you say there are certainly times when i appreciate the insight you give on this site. your experiences do not mirror my own (isn't it nice that there are so many paths to the same destination?) and it's interesting to read about your very different journey to health and what you have learned over the years. you often have level headed advice to give and good research to back it up.

as for mike, i still appreciate many of his posts, especially about efa's etc. the ONLY person who gave me any kind of useful advice during my pregnancy 6 yrs ago was gabriel cousins. while i don't follow his beliefs entirely i have seen a major difference with efa's and super foods, during pregnancy, after pregnancy, nursing, long-term raw and not raw. i certainly can attest to the truth in much of what mike says.

like i said, many paths to the same destination. the mistake is in thinking that what works for one works for all. supplements or not, there are many ways to achieve great health and that's what we're all here for so why don't we lay down out arms, agree to disagree, follow the rules and play nice? leggo your neg-o.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/2007 07:52AM by coco.

Mike Wrote:
----------------
> Yes, I sell the Klamath algae because it is
> one of the most important foods on Earth, it is
> the
> ONLY raw vegan food with DHA & EPA, and I eat it
> every
> day.
>

I haven't seen a nutrient analysis that includes
any DHA or EPA for blue-green algae. In addition,
since it is only about 2% lipids, very little
ALA is be present, so little that it could
hardly be considered to be a good source.

from:
American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol. 78, No. 3, 640S-646S, September 2003
© 2003 American Society for Clinical Nutrition
Supplements
Achieving optimal essential fatty acid status in vegetarians: current knowledge and practical implications1,2,3
Brenda C Davis and Penny M Kris-Etherton

"Blue-green algae (spirulina and Aphanizomenon flos-aquae) are low in long-chain n-3 fatty acids. Spirulina is rich in {gamma}-linolenic acid (GLA, n-6), while A. flos-aquae is more concentrated in ALA."

coco,

One thing I heard you say was that you did not like they way I replaced the link to Mike's website with a message about SPAM. I heard this, and if fact have acted on it. In the dozens of links and messages from Mike I've recently deleted, I have simply deleted the entire message, or deleted the links, and I stopped the practice of inserting text in the color red that the link was deleted.

The other thing I heard you say was to ban Mike. I've asked John to ban Mike, but it appears that John is on vacation now. As I only have moderator privileges, I cannot ban Mike, only recommend that he be banned. And I have done that.

We continue to disagree on my supposed "abuse of power" as moderator. I did what I thought was necessary to get Mike to stop. And he did stop. Thank you Mike.

Thank you coco for being vulnerable with me, for sharing with me how my action have made you feel.

And because you were so vulnerable to let me know how you feel, I will make myself equally vulnerable. In the years that I have interacted with you, I have consistently felt judged and criticized by your messages to me (or about me). Some of those judgments were positive, but most of them were critical of my behavior or my posts or what I had to share. Many of those posts were little jabs and jokes, attempting to be funny, yet critical of what I was saying and critical of who I am. This is just a part of being on the internet. But of all the people on this forum that I have had major disagreements with and with whom I participated in major flame wars, you are one of the few who made me feel harshly criticized and judged. When men argue with each other, they somehow figure out how to do it without being personal. Women are don't necessary play by these rules. And being as sensitive as I am, I felt the pain of those judgments and criticisms.

I am not asking you to change your behavior. I am just giving the same gift that you gave me. And I am not saying that I have this aspect of my personality handled. But when I let my judgment demon out to play, he loves to turn on me and give me a lot of pain. So I do what I can to not let him play.

Again, thank you for playing and participating in our forum. If I made this forum feel unsafe or painful for you, that was not my intention.

Bryan,

I think you do a great job here, both as moderator and contributor. I always look for your posts and know I will learn from them.

I have mixed feelings about Mike's contributions. One the one hand, I've benefited from much of the info he's posted. For example, his recent post of an interview with Dr. Schulze on fasting that was just what I needed to read. And on the other hand, it's clear that many of his posts are pure marketing and that has no place here.

But I have a question, and believe me this is not a challenge to you, but a sincere request to understand the board's policy. There are quite a few others who put links to their websites in their signatures, and their websites market products or services relating to raw. A few who come to mind are:

Raw Step By Step
bodybyblis
The Fruitarian One
chilove

They are not marketing their products blatently as Mike does, but it's still marketing and self-promotion. I'd appreciate your clarification on how that relates to the board policy on this sort of thing.

Bryan,

I tried to edit my last message but there's no 'edit' button for some reason.

In any case, here is the edited message:
I think you do a great job here, both as moderator and contributor. I always look know I will learn from your posts. And I think your response to Coco's illmannered and unwarranted personal attack was extraordinarily gracious.

I have mixed feelings about Mike's contributions. One the one hand, it's clear that many of his posts are pure marketing and don't belong here. And on the other hand he often posts really good information, and lots of it, such as the recent transcript of a Dr. Schulze interview on fasting. He deserves some credit for that, and I for one would like to see him continue on the board. It's not like he JUST posts advertisements for his website. He makes substantial contributions too.

On the subject of board policy, I have a question, and believe me this is not a challenge to you, but a sincere request to understand the board's policy. There are quite a few others who put links to their websites in their signatures, and their websites market products or services relating to raw. A few who come to mind are:

Raw Step By Step
bodybyblis
The Fruitarian One
chilove

They are not marketing their products blatently as Mike does, but it's still marketing and self-promotion. Could you clarify the board's policy on this sort of thing?

So far, I've only asked people to remove signatures that are selling products that compete with our advertisers. This means people that sell dehydrators, blenders, juicers, supplements, water filters, raw foods, etc are asked to remove their links. One person had a personal blog and an online store in his signature, and I ask that they remove the online store but could keep the personal blog, and they complied. Anyone that has just information on their site, or just personal stuff (say like a blog), I don't bother with.

I've asked bodybybliss to remove her website from her signature, and she complied, last I checked.

I haven't gotten to everyone. For the most part, if I feel a person is making a post just to get airtime on their website, that is, they are not offering the benefit of their experience but instead are just recommending a product, I deal with these folk first.

I am a volunteer here, and I don't want to spend a lot of time enforcing this particular policy, as it is not pleasant for me to do this. So far, John has not complained. But the ones I will chase down are those that don't contribute their experience (they just copy/paste stuff here from other websites), those that compete with John's business (after all, he is paying for all of this), and the blatent marketeers.

Here is the policy:

Quote

Not Permitted on the boards:

* Foul language
* Rude, offensive, insulting or vulgar posts.
* Anything for sale or give away
* Asking for, or giving medical advice, or
* Requests for contributions
* Off topic posts, or posts not deemed proper for the category they are placed
* Slander of individuals or Organizations
* Advertisments of products, services or advertising of other web sites

I've shared my criteria for enforcement based on my limited time and the unpleasantness of the task for me.

bryan, i'm glad to have been an opportunity for you to challenge some of your inner demons. that's always a good thing. perhaps it's time for you to look at the sexist attitude that influences your interactions with people as well. i am not a woman, and you are not a man, we are simply people. not to say that we are not influenced by our sexual/social conditioning but breaking it down to something as basic as even communication is over simplifying i think. i have been told many times that i am very unwomanly in my straightforwardness (again, i find that sort of attitude towards People sexist) and my willingness to say exactly what i think, no holds barred. i do not play games, i simply say what i mean. and if you were implying that your critisisms are impartial i don't know how, exactly, what you wrote here is supposed to be non-personal. [www.rawfoodsupport.com]
and certainly i have allowed your posts to, at times, make me very angry but i have never felt unsafe or in pain, a website doesn't have that kind of power over me.
as for my posts being illmannered and unwarranted i, of course, have to disagree. we have both been condemned and patted on the back enough here to know that every view point possible is held at the same time by the multitude of posters here. as for my arguement, it seems to have been the neccessary catalyst for a clearing of the air in a way that nothing else has so far. though i certainly did not say to "ban mike", i do think that informing people of what the policies are, how they are carried out, and then actually following through instills some order here and a sense of fair play where all are concerned. why does it take this much of a kafuffle to get to that point of open communication?
thank you for removing the "spam" message in other people's posts and simply deleting what should not be there, that makes things a bit more fair. and thank you also for taking what i had to say about that into consideration. i do agree that since this website is running on john's dime he should get to set the rules regarding advertising. but i also hope that pertinant, valuable information is not restricted because of an aversion by some to supplements, super-foods or the like. everyone should get to choose that for themselves. many paths to one destination after all.

coco,

I don't know if you ever look at the ads, but we advertise Vita-mineral Green, a superfood. As far as I know, John does not filter the raw products that are advertised on this website.

The forum policy is reiterated here every so often. I'm suprised that Mike or anyone thought that advertising here is OK. Again, I have my preferences on how I like to spend my time, so I have a limited criteria for choosing who I will confront.

I was not put off by any straightforwardness on your part. I was hurt by your judgments and criticism of me. It one thing to say that you don't like that I do something. Thats fine with me. Let me see what I can do to accomodate you. But you actually sat there and judged and criticized me. And not just in this message, but in many other you have directed my way. When people judge me, I feel pain. Perhaps you don't feel this when people judge you.

One of the things I love about the raw diet is how my sense of feeling has become so sensitized. It can be painful, but I'd rather feel the pain than to not feel it. I look at your picture you recently posted, and I see pain and fear in your body, in the way you hold your musculature. You may not feel this pain, but it is very apparent and easily seen. Your son holds his body so softly, as if he doesn't have a care in the world. You hold your body in a very guarded and protected way. Your neck is pulled into your torso, like a turtle does when he's afraid. Your shoulders are protecting your heart. You don't look happy. And its not just this picture, I've seen the others you've posted. Very unhappy. Angry. Afraid.

You say that when you eat 100% raw, that you become too sensitive. When I first went 100% raw, I started to feel all kinds of things in my body that I hadn't felt before. One of them was the pain of how I was holding my body. What I experienced back then in my newly raw body, I see in your body. Pain. Contraction. Fear.

These are my observation of you. I am not asking you to change anything. I don't judge where you are in your process. How can I, as I was just in that same place a few years ago myself. I've had the contracted body you have now. There are still contraction in my body, and I am loving the process of letting it go, letting down my shields. Each year, my body gets softer, like the softness in your son's body. Unguarded. Open. Vulnerable. Free.

You may not feel your pain, but I do. And I love it.

Bryan,

Thanks for your clarification. Makes sense.

oh bryan, your posts are just so you. i'm a dancer and very physically active so my awareness of my body is quite high. unfortunately it's difficult to hold a small, wriggly child in your lap and take your own picture so yes, my musculature is often contracted in photos. piotrek can tell you how fluid i am in person but he has left this site for good i'm afraid and he's the only one of you that i have met in person. i'll tell him all that you say hello when i see him in vancouver in a couple of weeks.
bryan, i often read judgement in your posts, whether you are aware of it or not. judgement about people taking supplements, judgement about people who don't aspire to be 100% raw, judgements about fruit, about a lot of things. perhaps it's just how you write, perhaps the judgement that you feel from me is simply just how i write. whatever. you have your strong opinions and i have mine. you think i'm in pain, i don't agree. i think you are manipulative, passive aggressive and holier-than-thou, you don't agree. as always, we'll have to agree to disagree and leave it at that until and unless we meet in person and can truly evaluate eachother.