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Rober Cassar does a 180 and Denounces Long Term Veganism...
Posted by: NuNativs ()
Date: January 24, 2020 03:35PM


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Re: Rober Cassar does a 180 and Denounces Long Term Veganism...
Posted by: NuNativs ()
Date: January 24, 2020 07:01PM

Who's left? We've got Dan Life Regenerator, Kristina and John Rose...confused smileyconfused smileyconfused smiley



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/24/2020 07:02PM by NuNativs.

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Re: Rober Cassar does a 180 and Denounces Long Term Veganism...
Posted by: fresh ()
Date: January 24, 2020 10:34PM

I made it 11 minutes into his video and I couldn't take any more of his ignorance.i could spend 1000 words refuting him...this is why I've always said eat foods that taste good not too bitter that's it.. easy.. don't need to know anything about oxalates or any of those other four syllable words .and all his nonsense about animal products was intolerable.

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Re: Rober Cassar does a 180 and Denounces Long Term Veganism...
Posted by: RawPracticalist ()
Date: January 28, 2020 03:55AM

>I've always said eat foods that taste good not too bitter that's it.. easy.

It is true to a degree.

Animal eating habits are governed by the needs of their body not always the taste.

When sick they will have the urge to eat foods that they do not normally eat.

Even my small dogs in the house will sometimes eat the leaves of the microgreens and the wheatgrass I grow indoor.

Wheatgrass does not taste good to humans.

When I started juicing dandelion greens years ago, I did not like it but as time went, I started to enjoy it because I knew that after the drinker of that bitter juice, I will feel so good a day later.

The same thing with the animals, they accept to take in some bitter food they do not usually eat to feel even better days later.

It is a long term investment.








Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2020 03:59AM by RawPracticalist.

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Re: Rober Cassar does a 180 and Denounces Long Term Veganism...
Posted by: fresh ()
Date: January 28, 2020 01:31PM

I do not accept the ..animals eat bitter foods to feel better.. argument. And wheatgrass is not food. And primarily the problem is juicing with respect to excessive bitters... not eating small amounts. And taste buds exist to direct animals to suitable food. Ignore at your peril. Less so for animals with less sophisticated senses. .

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Re: Rober Cassar does a 180 and Denounces Long Term Veganism...
Posted by: John Rose ()
Date: January 28, 2020 02:27PM

[www.rawfoodsupport.com] [Old link]
Re: Animals in Nature
John Rose (---.245.204.211.Dial1.Houston1.Level3.net)
Date: 09-19-02 09:29

Great point Tony...I have brought this up before, but it was ignored...below is part of a post that addresses this very issue...see point #3) below...

[www.rawfoodsupport.com]
John Rose (---.245.202.116.Dial1.Houston1.Level3.net)
Date: 07-22-02 15:51

...

3) My third point has to do with the argument that we would not make a meal out of herbs. No, I would not make a meal out of herbs as I would fruit, but that is not a valid argument for not eating or using them. Dogs and cats will eat grass at certain times and they do not make meals out of grass. Have y’all ever heard of the story behind the Hoxsey Formula? Harry Hoxsey's grandfather devised the formula after watching a cancerous horse cure itself by grazing on various herbs, among which are licorice, cascara, burdock root, stillingia root, and red clover. These were not foods that horses normally eat, but this horse knew instinctively what to eat! Most of the herbs used in the Hoxsey Formula are bitter herbs to help stimulate and cleanse the liver.

See below after the Schulze quote for entire thread...

All of the liver herbs are very bitter. Just the bitter taste when we taste it in our mouth starts stimulating the liver and will absolutely excrete bile from the liver through the gallbladder. ...The bitter greens stimulate digestion. ...If we were to go out into woods and sample most of what grew, the predominate taste in Nature is bitter. And unfortunately, in the grocery stores the predominate taste is sweet and salty. ...So, we’re just not eating enough bitter.” -Dr. Richard Schulze [see videos from “Save your Life Herbal Video Collection - see JR’s diary 6-19-00]

Animals in Nature
Tony (---.oc.oc.cox.net)
Date: 09-19-02 02:49

Zsuzsa,
I have also taken a leave of absence from this site, I just feel I was getting a little too much in the whole 'knowledge' thing when my diet was already fine. Time away from the net has allowed me to work more with other areas of my life and it has been worth it. The one reason I am posting this is because I searched for the book David Wolfe suggested called, "Wild Health: How Animals Keep Themselves Well and What We Can Learn From Them" and it looks fascinating. I will be ordering it soon but here is what the editorial said:

"A timely treatise for a health-obsessed culture, this book takes the idea of "natural remedies" quite literally. Engel, a lecturer in environmental sciences at the U.K. Open University, has compiled a wealth of fascinating laboratory studies and field observations on how animals treat and prevent diseases. Eschewing pseudomystical assertions about the innate wisdom of beasts, the author bases her assertions on scientific premises. For millennia, humans have observed animals in the wild eating plants and minerals and applying naturally occurring topical antitoxins from the same sources to combat infectious wounds, parasites and internal disorders. Herds of elephants risk injury and death in a perilous journey to hidden salt caves where they supplement their sodium deficient diets. Monkeys rub poisonous millipedes on their fur to repel biting, disease-carrying insects. Birds line their nests with parasite- resistant herbs. Engel details a world where nature is the pharmacy and every animal is its own practitioner. The reader also learns about the inbred weaknesses unintentionally visited upon domesticated animals through centuries of faulty genetic tampering by humans. Engel notes that the implications of all this for human health are sadly familiar: our biggest killers today (cancer, heart disease) result from unhealthy eating. Animals in the wild stay remarkably fit because they stick to a diet for which they were adapted, while human beings are ill-equipped to handle our current predilection for dairy, grains and processed foods. Occasionally, Engel lapses into apocalyptic rhetoric about the ravages of technology, which gets in the way of her otherwise clear-sighted and crisp narrative. Nevertheless, this is an engaging book that will enlighten those interested in health, biology, environment and animal behavior. Photos."

This lead me to wonder about your constant assertion that animals eat food only and water fast when ill; they do not seek out herbs, try to ameliorate symptoms, or employ natural 'remedies'. But this book appears that it will suggest otherwise, just from the brief editorial on it. Where do you get your information on animal behavior? Obviously you see the implication of this, if animals use herbal remedies, seek out salt to prevent deficiencies, etc. then the whole foundation of Hygiene and its claim to nature is put into jeopardy. Now, I do not want to start WW3 on this thread and without having read the entire book, I really can't say exactly what is in it. But I DO think it raises some interesting questions, don't you? Anyway, I intuitively had the feeling you would be leaving soon (I don't blame you) and thought this might be the last time I'd be able to catch you. Good luck in all of your endeavors--I am grateful for what I have learned from you. I will repost this as a new thread. Thanks!
Tony
[www.rawfoodsupport.com]
[www.rawfoodsupport.com]
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Addition
Tony (---.oc.oc.cox.net)
Date: 09-19-02 03:05

Zsuzsa,
I didn't look my last post over very well, obviously the fact that the body is self-healing is the foundation of Hygiene and that cannot be threatened. I meant that the info from the book challenges NH's denial that substances work with this innate intelligence to assist in healing the body and that Hygienic practices correspond exactly to how animals live in nature. Take care.
Tony
[www.rawfoodsupport.com]
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Re: Animals in Nature
Ruth Allen (---.access.uk.tiscali.com)
Date: 09-19-02 05:09

You are quite right in saying animals don't think of 'cures' and go by instinct but this info seems to be saying that animals use substances (herbs, salt, etc.) to assist their body in healing >>

They DO - I have tried raising this point before but it’s never addressed.
Animals DO use herbs and seek minerals through pond scum.
Animals will take herbs to facilitate the body - it maybe purely the instinct of using the irritation caused by the herbs.
I am suggesting all herbal usage is appropriate.
But we have talked this one through in the HL circle very thoroughly some several months back
I personally swung from using herbs with myself and clients (if necessary) to totally throwing all the books and tinctures out.
To coming back and finding balance in this. (as I perceive it)
Ruth.
www.harmonious-living.com
www.wholisticraw.com
[www.rawfoodsupport.com]
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Re: Animals in Nature
Zsuzsa (---.nas3.los-angeles1.ca.us.da.qwest.net)
Date: 09-19-02 05:46

Tony, as usual, you have brought up a fascinating topic, and one which requires much thought and consideration to cover in detail. I am glad that Eddie gave such a brilliant response, which covers so much ground, and I feel he's very correct.

I can only add a couple of points.

Firstly, we cannot assume that what is toxic to one species is toxic to another. Even though it may appear that way. Certain species have adaptations to some plants, that other species do not. And also many species are adapted to eating carcasses, while others clearly are not. It is true that some things are toxic to almost all species. But we don't necessarily know which foods are toxic to which species. Animals are not necessarily eating a plant for medicinal properties, for curing or symptom suppression, as are humans. They may have an adaptation to a certain plant. Also, animals in Nature, or domesticated animals, may truly have a deficiency, we don't know, if their natural foods are not available. We don't have that problem--we are prosperous enough to get almost any food we could possibly need. But if we were living under conditions of total habitat destruction or famine or drought or other catastrophe, we would probably eat whatever we could find. But I doubt you'll find that kind of behavior among animals who have a plentiful supply of all of their natural food.

Next, I'd like to point out that what animals rub on their fur or what they line their nests with, is not necessarily what they'd eat, so IMO those are two different categories.

So what are we left with? I have seen several times film footage of the elephants journeying to the salt licks and have wondered about them too. I don't know, I must confess, why they do it. I also don't know if it's just one bunch of elephants in one geographical region, or if it's elephants everywhere. I believe it's just one bunch of elephants in one region. And I do not have information at hand as to what their diet is. I know that elephants' environment has been being destroyed and there is not much vegetation left for them to eat. Instead of eating just leaves, they have taken to eating entire trees, bark and all. Perhaps they are missing a lot more than just salt in their diets as a result, but since they can't get anything but salt, they settle for that. Since elephants have been deprived of their natural foods, perhaps they too have had to begin to eat things which are unnatural to them, like humans did. It seems that some elephants have been going to the salt licks for a long time, perhaps for generations. But perhaps their particular forests were destroyed long ago. This is a fascinating subject to explore, and if someday I have to do so thoroughly, I may be able to give you a more definitive answer.

Regarding dogs eating grass, I think that it's rather natural for them to do so. Dogs love grass, and I call it their salad. They do not seem to eat it for any "medicinal" reason, contrary to some people's opinions, it's just another food for them, just like salad is for us. Dogs are omnivores, so greens and fruits are definitely natural to their diet. Our modern lettuces were developed from grasses, and we can eat grass too. I don't believe it has anything to do with chlorophyll, which is just green pigment, though it may have other significance. Grass is simply delicious and nutritious. Many of my dogs also eat lots of fruit and really love it, just as do most animals in Nature. Not therapeutically, but as food. As far as anti-freeze, it supposedly tastes like fruit, sweet, which is probably why dogs are attracted to it. Anti-freeze is made to taste like fruit, so is it any wonder dogs are fooled into eating it? There is nothing in Nature that tastes sweet and lovely and kills like anti-freeze. Why would any creature in Nature assume that anything that was sweet and lovely would kill? In fact, probably if people cared as little about their children as they do about animals, they would leave anti-freeze around for their toddlers to drink too, which the toddlers would probably happily do too.

I think one can interpret the actions of animals in different ways. But unless we have all the info, I don't think we can say that an animal eats a plant for purposes other than nutrition. And remember that they do not mix things together, they eat all mono meals, and they do not take anything, they eat it. No pills, potions, powders, no disguising it in smoothies, no gulping it down--they eat it all just the way it comes, by itself. They chew it and savor it and eat it. I think if we had to do the same with all those pills and other gimmicks people take, people might be singing a different tune.

I think that I will still return to this board from time to time. I think just not as often. And if I don't post, then I am less likely to keep coming back as often. I think it's natural to keep returning to threads on which one has posted. That keeps us hooked in, IMO. So I may lurk more than post.

Eddie, thanks again for your perceptive insights. You are very correct, IMO. I just wish you wouldn't call yourself an idiot, you are anything but, it really pains me when you do that. Thank you so much again for your support.
[www.rawfoodsupport.com]
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[www.rawfoodsupport.com]
Re: Animals in Nature
John Rose (---.245.204.211.Dial1.Houston1.Level3.net)
Date: 09-19-02 09:29
Great point Tony...I have brought this up before, but it was ignored...below is part of a post that addresses this very issue...see point #3) below...
[www.rawfoodsupport.com]
John Rose (---.245.202.116.Dial1.Houston1.Level3.net)
Date: 07-22-02 15:51

...

3) My third point has to do with the argument that we would not make a meal out of herbs. No, I would not make a meal out of herbs as I would fruit, but that is not a valid argument for not eating or using them. Dogs and cats will eat grass at certain times and they do not make meals out of grass. Have y’all ever heard of the story behind the Hoxsey Formula? Harry Hoxsey's grandfather devised the formula after watching a cancerous horse cure itself by grazing on various herbs, among which are licorice, cascara, burdock root, stillingia root, and red clover. These were not foods that horses normally eat, but this horse knew instinctively what to eat! Most of the herbs used in the Hoxsey Formula are bitter herbs to help stimulate and cleanse the liver.

Here's another point in that same post that has also been ignored...

5) And finally my last point of consideration is the blanket statement that all herbs are poisons. If all herbs are poisons, then how is it that if you get bitten by a rattlesnake, echinacea can save your life, and if you eat the death cap mushroom, which is one of the most virulent liver toxins known, milk thistle can save your life. As you can see, the argument that herbs are toxins and stopped some detox symptom just does not make sense in these two situations. Take this poison and it will kill you, but if you take this poison in the form of an herb it will stop what???
Peace and Love........John
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Thanks Everyone!
Tony (---.oc.oc.cox.net)
Date: 09-19-02 11:50

Zsuzsa--Thanks for being so gracious in your reply, even when there was a hint of deviousness in my post. I guess it is a fun challenge to try to 'stump' someone so knowledgeable and I am glad that you have focused on the positive here. You are definitely right that we cannot know the circumstances in which some of these animals searched for relief. The elephants could very well have been missing large parts of their natural diet and went for the salt as a last ditch effort. My main point was to show the possibility of even animals in nature using non-food substances to facilitate healing. As I said earlier, nothing can shake my understanding that the body innately heals itself but I do think this intelligence works more effectively in the presence of good nutrition/mineralization(a dirty word nowadays, huh?). Oh, and aren't elephants an example of a vegan animal? They probably ingest some insects but by the overall weight of their food its probably even less than 1%. What about rhinos, deer, giraffes, zebra, etc.? Did Pete not consider them because they were not primate-type?

John and Ruth--I was hoping to get your input on this. For me this at least opens the possibility that certain herbs may contain something the body can use to facilitate it is healing process. I am not saying I know this for sure or which herbs are good but at least it shows might that it might be possible. It is still most likely that 99% of the time the body is best left alone but there may be that 1 or 2% where an herb could help. Perhaps this justifies someone adding something like celtic sea salt or celery juice to the diet as David Wolfe suggests (he makes little or no money from the salt and none from the celery), if one ever feels sodium-deficient.

Nora--Wow, I thought I was inferring a lot from a brief editorial but you take the cake. I am sorry but it is a little paranoid to totally discredit this book before reading it because the author might have the 'unconscious agenda' to legitimize the medical paradigm. Obviously, almost everyone is affected by the false premises/indoctrination of the medical profession and it’s hard to write independently of that. But she was doing field studies (the only way we understand animals), pointing out animal behavior and making plain observations. Of course, she was inferring a causality (which might not be true) but it's obvious when an elephant risks its life to go and lick salt that it does so because it needs to/is deficient. To totally dismiss this book based on this little bit of info indicates a fear of anything that runs contrary to your NH philosophy and that makes me sad.
Thanks again everyone,
Tony
[www.rawfoodsupport.com]

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Re: Rober Cassar does a 180 and Denounces Long Term Veganism...
Posted by: RawPracticalist ()
Date: January 29, 2020 01:15AM

Quote
fresh
I do not accept the ..animals eat bitter foods to feel better.. argument. And wheatgrass is not food. And primarily the problem is juicing with respect to excessive bitters... not eating small amounts. And taste buds exist to direct animals to suitable food. Ignore at your peril. Less so for animals with less sophisticated senses. .

The body has to be well enough to eat and process food.
Animals and even humans know that when the body is ill, you have to restrain from eating your normal diet and eat other foods that will help you heal.

They are herbs, grasses, flowers. They repair the body.

I love mangos but I cannot eat them all of the time just because they taste good.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2020 01:17AM by RawPracticalist.

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Re: Rober Cassar does a 180 and Denounces Long Term Veganism...
Posted by: fresh ()
Date: January 29, 2020 12:31PM

eat other foods that will help you heal.

I don't agree.


I love mangos but I cannot eat them all of the time just because they taste good

I never said you should

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Re: Rober Cassar does a 180 and Denounces Long Term Veganism...
Posted by: Jennifer ()
Date: January 29, 2020 02:38PM

Quote
NuNativs

Who's left? We've got Dan Life Regenerator, Kristina and John Rose...confused smileyconfused smileyconfused smiley


We also have our own Prana - he's been Raw Vegan for at least two decades that I know of.

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Re: Rober Cassar does a 180 and Denounces Long Term Veganism...
Posted by: Jennifer ()
Date: January 29, 2020 05:02PM

But I guess you're talking about the high-profile Raw Vegans - the YouTubers. John Kohler would be another one.

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Re: Rober Cassar does a 180 and Denounces Long Term Veganism...
Posted by: RawPracticalist ()
Date: February 02, 2020 02:43AM

Quote
fresh
eat other foods that will help you heal.

I don't agree.

You don't have to agree. It is a fact.
We don't have to agree that the earth revolves around the sun.
It is a fact.

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Re: Rober Cassar does a 180 and Denounces Long Term Veganism...
Posted by: fresh ()
Date: February 02, 2020 02:19PM

Evidence for cure by diet is by associations it is not fact or hard science.

Are you familiar with the nature of the SELF HEALING BODY that uses its own inherent powers to heal 24 7?

How do u separate that from alleged herbal cures?

How soon you control for all the variables?
You cannot.

This kind of guesswork leads people to rely on addition instead of subtraction.

Remove cause..
There is no herbal deficiency that causes anything

Supply the body with it's normal needs and minimize toxins results in health
Ignoring cause and presuming the body is flawed and cannot run without adding something is illogical.

And I am not saying that they have no effect on the body.
I am saying they're unnecessary and there's a better way to address a problem.
And negative impact is ignored



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/02/2020 03:04PM by fresh.

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Re: Rober Cassar does a 180 and Denounces Long Term Veganism...
Posted by: RawPracticalist ()
Date: February 02, 2020 03:12PM

>Are you familiar with the nature of the SELF HEALING BODY that uses its own inherent powers to heal 24 7?

But for the body to heal itself it needs chemicals, vitamins, nutrients.
It needs air, water, earth, sunlight.

In most cases especially in the western developed world, we have to cleanse because of overeating to help the body use the tools to heal itself

In the underdeveloped world, there many cases where the nutrients are not provided thru diet, the body CANNOT HEAL ITSELF

Causes of childhood blindness in east Africa: results in 491 pupils attending 17 schools for the blind in Malawi, Kenya and Uganda.
Quote

Corneal pathology, attributed to vitamin A deficiency and measles infection in the majority, was responsible for proportionally more SVI/BL in students in Malawi than in Uganda or Kenya

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

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Re: Rober Cassar does a 180 and Denounces Long Term Veganism...
Posted by: fresh ()
Date: February 02, 2020 03:48PM

Quote
RawPracticalist
>Are you familiar with the nature of the SELF HEALING BODY that uses its own inherent powers to heal 24 7?

But for the body to heal itself it needs chemicals, vitamins, nutrients.
It needs air, water, earth, sunlight.

Not from medicinal non food like herbs

In most cases especially in the western developed world, we have to cleanse because of overeating to help the body use the tools to heal itself

Stop overeating
100 raw solves that problem real quickly

In the underdeveloped world, there many cases where the nutrients are not provided thru diet, the body CANNOT HEAL ITSELF

If one can get herbs one can get foods with those same nutients


Causes of childhood blindness in east Africa: results in 491 pupils attending 17 schools for the blind in Malawi, Kenya and Uganda.
Quote

Corneal pathology, attributed to vitamin A deficiency and measles infection in the majority, was responsible for proportionally more SVI/BL in students in Malawi than in Uganda or Kenya

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Vit a is not available in food?
if someone is making an effort to provide and Herb then you could just as easily provide the food

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Re: Rober Cassar does a 180 and Denounces Long Term Veganism...
Posted by: fresh ()
Date: February 02, 2020 09:26PM

I know you have your belief. It's Not fact. But the point is not just your examples of sick people who allegedly need herbs the point is one philosophy presumes health is normal and the other presumes sickness is normal and we need our genius to fix it.
It's so ingrained that we can't question it. The sickness paradigm.

Let's say Herb is antiinflammatory.
That is it's claim to heal
So what?
What's causing inflammation?
Fix it!
Subtract the causative vector!

Another Herb helps with digestion!
Come on this is absurdity.

Unnecessary. Medical paradigm..

Pain killers sure! But not healing..

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Re: Rober Cassar does a 180 and Denounces Long Term Veganism...
Posted by: RawPracticalist ()
Date: February 03, 2020 09:59PM

The world is not perfect.
Patches are applied to keep us living.

If people were driving with attention and respect of the rules there would not be any accidents.
But there are many accidents.
Cars are patched with paintings that may not fit exactly the original, with used tires.
It is not perfect but it keep life going.

Wheatgrass and dandelion greens are herbs. When I add them to my daily meal as juices, I eat less and feel much better.
Any herb that helps the body process and utilize the foods better is as valuable as the food itself.

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