Hospitals aren't killing anybody right?

I mean they're getting extra money for putting people on ventilators I'm sure that's not any incentive for them to kill anybody by accident
......

Most coronavirus patients who go on ventilators won't survive. But those who do can face long-term trauma.

For the sickest COVID-19 patients, getting on a ventilator to help them breathe can be a life-saving process.

The machines require sedation, and prevent patients from moving, communicating, or going to the bathroom on their own.

Some patients who survive can experience longer-term physical complications including from organ failure that came up while the patient was on a ventilator, delirium, and, in COVID-19, the potential for long-term lung damage.

Often, patients find the lasting mental-health toll from facing death and feeling helpless can be the most bothersome and difficult-to-treat consequence.

Visit Business Insider's homepage for more stories.

When Rebecca Trahan heard New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo mention ventilators as the state was looking to increase its supply, she started to panic.

Trahan, 57, a creative director who lives in Harlem, knows what it's like to be on a ventilator, a machine used to help people breathe in times when they can't fully on their own.

"It's all coming back to me," Trahan told Business Insider.

In 2011, Trahan underwent triple bypass surgery after a spontaneous coronary artery dissection. When she woke up from surgery, she was on a ventilator. The experience was disorienting. She couldn't speak, she was strapped down, she didn't know what time it was, and she wasn't sure what would come next.

She didn't know if she was getting better. She didn't know if she'd always be living on a ventilator, a reality she wasn't interested in.

When the ventilator was removed a few days later, she was groggy and the room she was in felt different than before. "Nothing really made sense," Trahan said.

Never miss out on healthcare news. Subscribe to Dispensed, Business Insider's weekly newsletter on pharma, biotech, and healthcare.

Trahan's experience is one that many more people are set to face as they come off the breathing machines used in severe cases of COVID-19, the disease caused by the novel coronavirus. And while they are the lucky ones — most patients with COVID-19 who are put on ventilators don't survive — the experience can leave physical, and especially emotional, scars.

Once on a ventilator, patients can't communicate or move
A ventilator is a medical devices that essentially takes over a patient's breathing in "a very specific way," Dr. Burton Bentley II, CEO of Elite Medical Experts, previously told Insider.

Being put on a ventilator requires healthcare professionals to sedate the patient and insert a tube in their airway that connects to a machine. The machine then pushes air into the lungs and removes it.

The machines are used "when people lose their own ability to have normal respiration, they are too fatigued, or their lungs are impaired because they're full of fluid, or they can't in their own power oxygenate themselves at an effective level," Bentley said.

Once on a ventilator, patients can't communicate or move around, and thus can't perform basic daily functions like eating and going to the bathroom on their own.

Sometimes, patients' lungs resist the machine, and they have to be put in a medically induced coma.

The Associated Press reported in April that New York City officials said 80% of patients on ventilators there had died. "The longer you are on a ventilator, the less likely that you will ever come off that ventilator," Cuomo said in an April briefing.

Surviving time on a ventilator sometimes leads to complications, and lung function might not fully recover in COVID-19 patients
The complications associated with coming off a ventilator can differ based on how long a patient was on the machine.

Patients with severe cases of COVID-19 can also experience failures of other organs, such as their kidneys, and these can have long-term consequences. [ok?]

"Coming off a ventilator is the beginning of the end," Dr. Patrick Maher, a pulmonary medicine doctor with Mount Sinai who's been treating COVID-19 patients in the hospital's intensive care units, told Business Insider.

The heavy doses of sedation and blood pressure medications used to keep patients stable on the ventilators as their lungs recover can come with side effects. One is delirium, doctors told Business Insider in April. It's not easy to be sedated for that long.

After getting off the ventilator, patients won't go home right away. They might stay in the ICU for a few days more, then be transferred elsewhere in the hospital first.

How long it takes COVID-19 patients to get back to fully functioning on their own, Maher said, depends on how sick patients were and what their health was like before coming down with COVID-19.

Lung function in COVID-19 patients with severe forms of the illness might not recover completely, Business Insider's Morgan McFall-Johnsen previously reported.

In Trahan's case, she was able to come off the ventilator and started working to recover as fast as possible from her heart surgery. Soon, the marathoner was back to running.

Being on a ventilator can lead to long-term mood and cognitive changes
The weight of Trahan's emotional experience being on the ventilator — facing life-or-death questions, having something else breathe for her and not being able to talk — didn't hit her until her body had recovered, she said. Doctors and friends couldn't understand, assuming that because she had recovered physically, she was completely fine.

But, she remembered thinking, "I'm having trouble living," she said.

Dr. Craig Weinert, a pulmonologist and critical-care physician at the University of Minnesota who's studied mental health outcomes of ICU patients, told Business Insider that it's common for ventilator patients to find the psychological effects are more pronounced than the physical ones — and to be surprised by that.

"What they don't understand is all the other stuff that comes with it," including general physical weakness, brain fog, and poor mood — a cluster of symptoms researchers have dubbed post-intensive care syndrome, or PICS.

The syndrome can be especially common among patients on ventilators since the treatment, by nature, means they were near death.

"It really cements in people's minds: You know what? I could have died," Weinert said.

The experience can also be psychologically damaging because "your whole world shrinks down to your bed," he said. You can't talk, feed yourself, or go the bathroom on you're own; you don't know day from night; and you're surrounded by professionals whose presence reminds you that you could die at any moment.

Plus, the sedation medications can have their own long-term mental-health effects, although it's still not clear to doctors and researchers if or how they should adjust doses to help prevent those.

Experiencing symptoms of PICS is upsetting to patients not only because they're unexpected, but also because unless it reaches the point of a diagnosable mental illness, like depression, anxiety, or post-traumatic stress disorder, there's no clear treatment. And, Weinert said, it can lasts for months or even a lifetime.

For Trahan, being on a ventilator is haunting her now since she lives in one of the centers of the coronavirus pandemic. She's having an especially hard time not leaving her apartment to volunteer and help her community. But Trahan lives with heart failure, which puts her at high risk for severe illness caused by the COVID-19 virus.

"This would be something tough for me to survive," Trahan said.

LIVING THE AMERICAN DREAM, NOT DYING THE AMERICAN NIGHTMARE!!!

Here's an article I ran across about Ventilators doing more harm than good. So the doctor in the article - Cameron Kyle-Sidell - did we already talk about him here? I'm having trouble keeping up with all the videos we're posting here.

Is this proof 'life-saving' ventilators are actually deathtraps? Their success rate is appalling and medics are increasingly worried they may do more harm than good, disturbing report reveals

[www.dailymail.co.uk]

Serious doubts have been raised about the effectiveness of ventilators

Ventilators are a standard treatment for the deadly lung infection pneumonia

In New York, 80 per cent of ventilated patients failed to recover

His face contorted with worry, a young casualty doctor sends a desperate message to the world. He has watched over the beds of hundreds of coronavirus patients, and now believes they are dying because of the very treatment that is meant to save them.

After being rushed into hospital, they are knocked out by sedatives delivered through a throat tube as a ventilator mechanically pumps their lungs to send oxygen into their bodies.

It is a standard treatment for the deadly lung infection pneumonia, and one that was first used for Covid-19 patients in China, then in Europe and now here in Britain.

Yet, in a frank YouTube video, the New York casualty doctor Cameron Kyle-Sidell has broken ranks with the medical establishment and warns it is wrong to use ventilators in this way.

He states emphatically: 'I fear this misguided treatment will lead to a tremendous amount of harm in a very short time. Covid-19 is not a pneumonia and should not be treated as one.'

His video, which has been viewed around the world, is heralding a re-think concerning the treatment of severe cases of Covid-19. In particular, experts are now asking whether the best way of saving patients might be to saturate their blood with oxygen delivered through a mask without using a ventilator.

This is the approach reportedly used during Boris Johnson's fight for life against the virus at London's St Thomas' Hospital intensive care unit. Before the pandemic took hold, Kyle-Sidell's theory might have been dismissed as maverick.

But as hospital virus deaths climb, a Daily Mail investigation has found that the New York casualty doctor's unorthodox views, far from being crazy, might be the very opposite — and the key to preventing deaths.

New York casualty doctor Cameron Kyle-Sidell has broken ranks with the medical establishment to warn ventilators are not being used in the right way +7
New York casualty doctor Cameron Kyle-Sidell has broken ranks with the medical establishment to warn ventilators are not being used in the right way

The death rate for those treated on ventilators is devastating. In one British study of 98 Covid-19 patients who were put on them or on similarly invasive breathing-support equipment, two-thirds died, according to a new report by our Intensive Care National Audit and Research Centre.

In New York, which has been hit particularly hard by the virus, 80 per cent of ventilated patients failed to recover. The loss of life in other countries for those on the machines is equally terrifying.

Dr David Farcy, the president of the American Academy of Emergency Medicine, warns against using them indiscriminately. His patients have been treated successfully with fastflow oxygen delivered through a simple nasal tube or mask.

He also places patients on their left or right side, a process called proning that is simpler to perform on patients in masks than those on ventilators, which instantly raises oxygen levels in their blood.

'This has challenged everything we thought', he said. 'Six weeks ago everybody (in a hospital) would be running around getting ready to intubate you, put you on a machine'. But not any more.

(More info at the link)

Here is his Twitter Account -

[twitter.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/20/2020 06:21PM by Jennifer.

Heis hypothesis is getting a lot of attention on Twitter -

[twitter.com]

And here he is explaining his position in more detail -

[twitter.com]

[twitter.com]

[vimeo.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/20/2020 07:06PM by Jennifer.

NY hospitals killing patients
From a nurse

[youtu.be]

Cool. Except not for the patients.

And she mentioned Dr. Kyle-Sidell - I posted links to his hypothesis above.

Recent Reuters Article -

Special Report: As virus advances, doctors rethink rush to ventilate

[www.reuters.com]

Ventilator-associated Pneumonia (VAP)


Ventilator-associated pneumonia is a lung infection that develops in a person who is on a ventilator. A ventilator is a machine that is used to help a patient breathe by giving oxygen through a tube placed in a patient’s mouth or nose, or through a hole in the front of the neck. An infection may occur if germs enter through the tube and get into the patient’s lungs. CDC provides guidelines and tools to the healthcare community to help end ventilator-associated pneumonia and resources to help the public understand these infections and take measures to safeguard their own health when possible.

[www.cdc.gov]

Ventilator-Associated Pneumonia: Diagnosis, Treatment, and Prevention
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Patients in the intensive care unit (ICU) are at risk for dying not only from their critical illness but also from secondary processes such as nosocomial infection. Pneumonia is the second most common nosocomial infection in critically ill patients, affecting 27% of all critically ill patients (170). Eighty-six percent of nosocomial pneumonias are associated with mechanical ventilation and are termed ventilator-associated pneumonia (VAP). Between 250,000 and 300,000 cases per year occur in the United States alone, which is an incidence rate of 5 to 10 cases per 1,000 hospital admissions (134, 170). The mortality attributable to VAP has been reported to range between 0 and 50% (10, 41, 43, 96, 161).

Judicious antibiotic usage is essential, as resistant organisms continue to plague intensive care units and critically ill patients

Ventilator-associated pneumonia in the ICU
[ccforum.biomedcentral.com]

Risk for VAP is greatest during the first 5 days of mechanical ventilation (3 %) with the mean duration between intubation and development of VAP being 3.3 days [1], [7]. This risk declines to 2 %/day between days 5 to 10 of ventilation, and 1 %/day thereafter [1], [8]. Earlier studies placed the attributable mortality for VAP at between 33-50 %, but this rate is variable and relies heavily on the underlying medical illnes

Risk Factors for Ventilator-Associated Pneumonia: From Epidemiology to Patient Management
[academic.oup.com]
Ventilator-associated pneumonia (VAP) is the most common lethal infection observed in patients who require treatment in intensive care units (ICUs). VAP is defined as pneumonia occurring 48 h after intubation and the start of mechanical ventilation. This time window is important, so that any infection that is incubating at the time of admission can be excluded

What is Ventilator Associated Pneumonia (VAP) and How to Prevent It
[www.americansentinel.edu]

What is Ventilator Associated Pneumonia (VAP)?

Mechanical ventilation is a core component of supportive therapy for critical care patients who cannot breathe adequately on their own. Yet while a ventilator is often a lifesaving measure, it can frequently cause complications, including the nosocomial infection known as ventilator associated pneumonia, or VAP – defined as an airway infection that develops more than 48 hours after the patient was intubated (which indicates that it wasn’t present or developing at the time of intubation).

VAP is one of the most commonly acquired infections in the ICU, second only to catheter associated urinary tract infections (CAUTIs). It is the most fatal of the hospital acquired infections, with higher mortality rates than either central line infections or sepsis. Ventilated patients who develop VAP have mortality rates of 45 percent, compared to 28 percent for ventilated patients who do not develop VAP.

Ventilator Associated Pneumonia (VAP) Risk Factors

VAP occurs when there is a bacterial invasion of the pulmonary system in a patient receiving mechanical ventilation. The primary risk factor is the endotracheal tube itself – it can provide a direct passageway for airborne pathogens into the lungs, or act as a reservoir for pathogens by providing a place for biofilm to form or secretions to pool. The endotracheal tube also cancels out many of the body’s protective mechanisms – for example, it prevents the patient from coughing, which is a natural defense for clearing secretions that may otherwise be aspirated.

Patients who are elderly or immune compromised are at increased risk of VAP, as are those with an existing pulmonary illness (COPD, asthma, emphysema). Other risk factors include prolonged duration of ventilation, feeding by nasogastric tube, maintaining patients in a supine position, and staff non-compliance with handwashing and other infection control protocols.

Ventilator Associated Pneumonia (VAP) Prevention Strategies for Nurses

Core strategies for preventing VAP focus on interrupting the three most common mechanisms by which it develops: the aspiration of secretions, the colonization of the aerodigestive tract, and the use of contaminated equipment. (Core strategies are defined by the CDC as those that are backed by high levels of scientific evidence and have demonstrated feasibility.)

The CDC recommends using non-invasive, positive-pressure ventilation (delivered continuously via a face or nose mask) instead of intubation wherever possible and minimizing the duration of ventilation. Proactive surveillance of ventilated patients is needed, particularly by nursing and respiratory therapy staff.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/04/2020 02:18AM by Tai.

I'm not clear on how this proved germ theory

Arent doctors all over the world saying that people are infected with covid-19?

What's the difference?

They are not infected with covid-19

nor do we know that these patients in the study had physical issues because of replicating bacteria they just always assume..

Not that it's not possible certainly in a weakened body or a dead body microorganisms tend to take over seems to me like you have just proved the terrain theory

Maybe a definition of infection and germ theory is needed

Fresh
I'm not clear on how this proved germ theory

Tai
Because you can take someone who has healthy lungs and put them on a ventilator and they could get infectious pneumonia in a week from the germs entering directly into their bodies. some people who go on ventilators do so for other reasons, like alcoholism.

Fresh
nor do we know that these patients in the study had physical issues because of replicating bacteria they just always assume..

Tai
They test for it. It's not assumption. And they rule out everything else. Too bad they can't just get better technology.

Fresh
Not that it's not possible certainly in a weakened body or a dead body microorganisms tend to take over seems to me like you have just proved the terrain theory

Tai
The germ theory also includes the terrain theory

Fresh
Maybe a definition of infection and germ theory is needed

Tai
Great, progress is being made here on this board. I already presented a reasonable definition, so I await yours.

Quote
Tai
Fresh
I'm not clear on how this proved germ theory

Tai
Because you can take someone who has healthy lungs and put them on a ventilator and they could get infectious pneumonia in a week from the germs entering directly into their bodies. some people who go on ventilators do so for other reasons, like alcoholism.


You're assuming based on what they said. Just like you're assuming when fauci says there's a million cases of covid. Without Evidence


Fresh
nor do we know that these patients in the study had physical issues because of replicating bacteria they just always assume..

Tai
They test for it. It's not assumption. And they rule out everything else. Too bad they can't just get better technology.

No they dont

Fresh
Not that it's not possible certainly in a weakened body or a dead body microorganisms tend to take over seems to me like you have just proved the terrain theory

Tai
The germ theory also includes the terrain theory

As u wish


Fresh
Maybe a definition of infection and germ theory is needed

Tai
Great, progress is being made here on this board. I already presented a reasonable definition, so I await yours.

You're closed minded and attached to virology theory that some virologists don't even believe anymore.
I have presented dozens of quotes from experts you ignore.

Even medical people misuse the word infectious and use it when they really mean contagious I mean this is like basic stuff there's a difference here's a link

[wikidiff.com]

I don't really understand why we need to get so deep into this nobody has shown that a new virus has made anybody sick or is contagious that's it