dream earth,

I think 20% is fine also. In fact, I was there for a few years at 20% fat. At some point I decided not to control my fat, and doing 20% was easeful for me. And guess what. It dropped to 10% without me having to do anything. wei wu wei.

na(raw)dia,

Quote

Why not just drink mother's milk...?

90% of the world's population doesn't have the enzyme to digest milk as adults.

However, that doesn't seem to stop the people here in the US from drinking milk. Perhaps we could enslave the women of the world, keep them constantly pregnant, offering their babies to medical experiments and perhaps for stem cell harvesting, and milk these women until they can no longer bear children. This way we could quit enslaving cows and creating all that carbon dioxide emissions as well as the e-coli contamination of innocent baby spinach.

Bryan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> na(raw)dia,
>
> Why not just drink mother's milk...?
>
> 90% of the world's population doesn't have the
> enzyme to digest milk as adults.
>
> However, that doesn't seem to stop the people here
> in the US from drinking milk. Perhaps we could
> enslave the women of the world, keep them
> constantly pregnant, offering their babies to
> medical experiments and perhaps for stem cell
> harvesting, and milk these women until they can no
> longer bear children. This way we could quit
> enslaving cows and creating all that carbon
> dioxide emissions as well as the e-coli
> contamination of innocent baby
> spinach.[us.i1.yimg.com]
> smileys2/01.gif

Ha, great idea! Lol...

Yes, I find that my body currently says no to more than 20% fat right now without having to consider the matter.

Force the change you want to see in the world through direct, socialist democracy!

[www.dreamingearth.net]

well-here is a dumb question! here goes! is complex carbs in this raw diet or any diet for that matter-fruit?thanks

Yes fruit and vegetables are complex carbs. It's all measured by the glycemic index some fruit have a higher GI others are lower. 70+ is high 50-60 is medium and below 50 is low. But even fruits and veggies differ...for examples and orange has a GI of 50.

This is only my opinion: I don't think GI or GL matter when the meals (and the total diet) are high in fiber (say, 50 g per day or higher) and the meals consist of whole foods.

Maybe I'd make an exception for some dried fruits, I don't think they are very healthy compared to juicy ones and they are much more powerfully concentrated sources of sugar. I rarely eat them because it's too easy to overindulge. With whole juicy fruits, we tend to stop before we do too much "damage" because they are so filling.

arugula Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
With whole
> juicy fruits, we tend to stop before we do too
> much "damage" because they are so filling.

I don't know about that. I can't even eat more then 2-3 pieces of sweet juicy fruits a day. I'd normally have like 1-3 oranges in the morning, and today I decided to have 5. The damage is a full bloated painful stomach with fruits that never seem to digest and I can't put any other food in it because of the stupid fruits. Even though they were eaten ALONE and fruit is supposed to digest the easiest and fastest of all foods. What BS! The GI doesn't matter so much when it just sits there and expands. I don't have the patients to eat juicy fruit anymore. Not all fruits. Bananas are fine, they are not juicy.

taylor,

Quote

is complex carbs in this raw diet or any diet for that matter-fruit?

Complex carbs are starches like those found in wheat, rice, corn, potatoes, etc. These carbohydrates are more difficult to digest for the human body because the body must first convert the complex carbohydrates into simple carbohydrates. Simple carbohydrates are sweet sugars like those found in fresh fruit. An example of refined simple carbohydrates is table sugar, which is made from either sugar cane or beets.

Most raw foodists avoid raw starches simply because they don't taste good. Have you ever taken a russet potato and tried to eat it raw? How does that compare with eating an apple?

Many fruits and vegetables have both simple and complex carbs in them because of all the fiber in them. It's not just starches.

"Complex carbohydrates may be classified as either starches, which have alpha glycosidic linkages, which are readily digested by intestinal amylases or as dietary fiber which have beta linkages which are resistant to these enzymes."

[www.feinberg.northwestern.edu]

"Complex carbohydrates, or polysaccharides, are made mostly of long strands of simple sugars. They are found in grains, fruits, legumes (peas and beans), and other vegetables. Complex carbohydrates include three types of dietary fiber - cellulose, hemicellulose and gums - and starches."

"Some polysaccharides, or complex carbohydrates, have an even more complicated molecular structure. These polysaccharides are known as dietary fiber, or non-starch polysaccharides (NSP). These types of complex carbs include cellulose, hemicellulose, pectin, gum and mucilage. Generally, dietary fiber is classified as either insoluble or soluble. Most plant foods contain both sorts of fiber, although proportions vary. Insoluble fiber is mainly cellulose. Soluble fiber comes in various types, including pectin, arabinose and beta-glucans."

"Examples are lettuce and broccoli. Examples of low-fiber, complex carbs are banana, tomato, squash and all cereals and grains (therefore bread and pasta), potatoes and rice."

This site shows a list:
[www.howtothinkthin.com]

Some complex carbs mentioned are spinach, cabbage, celery, cucumber, apple, oranges, grapefruit, carrots etc.

Unripe bananas are starchy. Most unripe fruit is starchy, and as the fruit ripens, the starch is converted into sugar. A banana with yellow skin and no or few freckles is unripe.

And if you like raw starch, then enjoy your raw starch. I myself prefer the taste of an sweet mango over a starchy raw brocoli or potato.

OMG. You don't read anything. If you read any of the stuff or the link you would see that starch is only ONE type of complex carb.

You eat tomatoes right? You eat celery right? Cucumbers? Apples? Oranges? Do you consider all of those starches?

Here's the link again since you obviously missed it. [www.feinberg.northwestern.edu]

Some of the COMPLEX CARBS found in some NON-STARCHY fruits or vegetables as well as seeds include: Penthouses, Cellulose, Hemicellulose, Pectins (apples and citrus), Gums & mucilages and Inulin.

What is the relevance of your article? Is it going to change my food choices? Yes, I know fiber is a carbohydrate. But for the most part, I don't get much energy from the fiber I eat. I consider fiber a valuable nutrient for its ability to clean out my digestive system and to regulate the absorption of sugars, not for its ability of provide some caloric benefit.

Again, what is the relevance of the carbohydrate nature of fiber?

Nik,

When most people talk about complex carbohydrates, they are referring to starch, not fiber. So when taylor asked whether the complex carbs in diet came from fruit, based on what most people think of as complex carbs, starch, I told her no.

While I recognized that fiber is also considered a carbohydrate, it is not a significant source of fuel for humans. And unripe fruit, while starchy, is not typically the way people eat their fruit.

Again, I am trying to understand what point you were making about complex carbohydrate and fruit as it related to taylor's question.

The point is these fruits are not all simple carbs, they are complex. Taylor asked if any complex carbs are fruit and you answered that fruit is just simple carbs. He deserves to know the full information. And anything bad you have to say about complex carbs applies to them as well. You can't get your fruit without the complex carbs of the fiber, unless you juice them. So they are not pure simple instant energy the way that fruit juice is or refined sugar etc. So talking about starchy bananas, what is the point of that. I could care less about changing your food choices or what you eat. The point is accurate information, that's all.

nik,

Thank you for explaining why you felt it important to make the clarification that you did. I too like accurate information.

<<Have you seen article called Gut Thinking comparing the howler monkey versus the spider monkey in Panama? Very provocative.>>

Thakns for the article link, interesting. I thought that humans actually had the capacity to process food in a variety of ways, inlcuding fermentation in the gut to take advantage of increased fiber intake. here's a link I found:

Carbohydrate fermentation and absorption

Without gut flora, the human body would be unable to break down and use some of the carbohydrates it consumes, because some types of gut flora have enzymes that human cells lack for breaking down polysaccharides.[3] Rodents raised in a sterile environment and lacking in gut flora need to eat 30% more calories just to remain the same weight as their normal counterparts.[3] Carbohydrates that humans cannot digest without bacterial help include starches; fiber; oligosaccharides and sugars that the body failed to absorb[6][2][7] like lactose and alcohols; mucus produced by the gut; and proteins.[6]

Bacteria turn carbohydrates they ferment into short chain fatty acids, or SCFAs.[6][5][7] These materials can be used by host cells, providing a major source of useful energy and nutrients for humans.[6] They increase the gut's absorption of water, reduce counts of damaging bacteria, increase growth of human gut cells,[5] and are also used for the growth of indigenous bacteria.[2] The SCFAs are produced by a form of fermentation called saccharolytic fermentation[6] and include acetic acid, propionic acid, and butyric acid.[6][5][7] Gases and organic acids like lactic acid are also produced by saccahrolytic fermentation.[7] Acetic acid is used by muscle, propionic acid helps the liver produce ATP, and butyric acid provides energy to gut cells and may prevent cancer.[6]

Another, less favorable type of fermentation, proteolytic fermentation, breaks down proteins like enzymes, dead host and bacterial cells, and collagen and elastin found in food, and can produce toxins and carcinogens in addition to SCFAs. Thus a diet lower in protein lowers exposure to toxins.[2][5]

Evidence also suggests that bacteria enhance the absorption and storage of lipids.[3] Bacteria also produce and help the body absorb needed vitamins like vitamin K. In addition, the SCFAs they produce help the body absorb nutrients such as calcium, magnesium, and iron.[2]

From [en.wikipedia.org] and references therein.

Cheers,
J

Bryan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Excess fat brings the body to ketosis and creates
> an acidic condition, plus is a factor in heart
> disease, cancer, diabetes, etc.
>
> So why not 30% fat? It can work, but it creates an
> acidic condition in the body and can drain your
> calcium.

Bryan,

Would this also apply to avocados? If they are eaten liberally as one's sole source of overt fat, can they cause ketosis and drain calcium?

Thank you.

The fat source doesn't matter in terms of ketosis.

Where the fat source matters in the in freshness (and thus nutrient) aspect. An avocado is going to have more vitamins and minerals in it because it is fresh. The vitamins and minerals in nuts and seeds will have eroded over time as they sat in the the shelves in the market for months or years. In an oil, there are virtually no vitamins or mineral in the oil, and it may have been months or years since the olives (or whatever food was used) were harvested.

The other aspect of freshness is rancidity. When fats go rancid, they create free radicals, which can damage cells in the body.