Hey Brian, thanks for your response. Whilst I have no doubts that, like in the post Ariannah makes, people would feel a lot healthier after a following a fruitarian diet for six months, I do have very great reservations about following an exclusive diet of oranges for six years and its effects on ones health. The devil is in the details I feel.

Cheers,
J

Jose, it is obvious, that details are very important, yet Brian didn't suggested that such diet is being promoted by anyone as to be "universal" or Healthful.
There was a mention about "experiment"..
if You feel like experimenting no one can stop You i Guess, I can TRY to persuade to do some more reading on: how did GMO and usage of chemicals changed the way fruits are being grown and transported, that would at least make you more sensitive to difference between 1930 and today.. and how healthy "typical" found fruit IS.

It was meant only for a comparison about "street notions" of "fruit" versus "fat". :Oranges vs. coconut butter


If i can point one thing out.. effect(of fruit, or food in general) on human body is ALWAYS the same. The only thing that differs is current state of Your health. Whether your body will be able to put up with removing toxic, poisonous stuff, and in what manner it will happen. Whether you will get sick or get serious side effects, or get healthier and stronger/ able to sustain life longer, regardless of whether it will be incomplete or fat or fruit.

It's like a comparison between whether black,wholewheat bread is healthier then white bread.
Answer is:both are toxic, and most unhealthy may be be choosing to eat bread at all .
yet for a person eating only milk and meat bread will function as DETOXyfying factor: poisoning oneself only x20, unlike x100 meat. Just an example, but for every person makes different decisions based on their current needs, state of health as much as mind. Or at least everyone should as it seems.

Oranges are NOWHERE near bread, but treating them as the only source of food/nutrients/ nourishment may be simply improper decision to make for You, At the time, as to Your current health conditions. As well as environment You choose to live as much as mental attitude toward yourself/world outside and food alone. Often overlooked.
As it would be improper for anyone to suggest it.

Yet facts stay: on OJ ALONE you WILL go longer, than on Cocoa butter(or salt) ALONE as imprecisely as it had been discussed from a very beginning of this thread


My opinion on statements from David Wolfs site, and salt:
1. salt is favorite way in which Americans chose to commit suicide, choosing to eat about 1/7 of deadly dosage for human life EVERY DAY.
2. eating already too concentrated amounts of sugars, refined foods etc., we make ourselves drink large quantities of water washing out/loosing in the process lots of minerals being wasted on counterbalancing our over acidic environment created during ingestion of dense/low water/natural fiber content foods.

As Brian noted understanding basic physiology of a cell processes, osmosis and mechanisms of "electric" nature of a body is a key to changing notions of salt being crucial. But not ALONE, or in quantities that have never been available in nature(=safe amount for body to remove) for us to experience.

Too little salt = feeling sluggish
too much salt = having muscle cramps, holding excess water in tissues, and body making our body to counterbalance constant changing amounts of salt being washed out/ ingested.Let's not forget that our heart IS a muscle, and a healthy one pumps around 12 000 gallons of blood EVERY DAY. Heart of SICK person HAVE to work OVERTIME. Having to pump in excess of 25 000 gallons of blood.
More scientific proofs are everywhere. Tested, proofed, hidden/forgot/ uncomfortable.

"magic electric charge" that You are experiencing after eating a little of it with your apple may be as much of your needed(deficient) mineral, as feeling over stimulation, that your body had adjusted to deal with when "electric shorts" caused by overt amounts of "salt" inside your stomach, and veins, that for most of your life you have eat with your food. none of which are good over long time.

SALT is 1 of 1 000 000 tiny little factors, that MUST be in right quantity, of right quality, in right proportions, that no doctor can do for you, only your body.
most of those are most likely NOT discovered yet.

So concentrating ONLY on one of those.. is a missed point I believe.

I'd rather go and look around and find WHAT causes for Me to loose salt, rather how can i replace missing salt.. if speed at which one is depriving themselves through improper diet, of too much fat, too little sugar/wrong kind/quantities (overt fats, and acidic environment needed to digest them) is greater than speed at which body can transform ingested food/"supplements" to replenish missing minerals NO AMOUNT OR KIND OF SALT can make up for loosing it to quickly.



Free, Open source.Healthy
F.E.A.R. is
an acronym that stands for, False Evidence Appearing Real
F.A.I.T.H. - the First Attribute IN Thoughtful
Health

I think too much salt can dehydrate a person. I never went for the idea that a person would be more likely to stay hydrated during a race or whatever if they ate salt pills.

My theory (similar to Bryan's, but totaly lacking any scientific evidence whatsoever) is that people become dehydrated when they eat too much salt.

The reason they become dehydrated when they eat too much salt is that there is a mutual attraction between salt and water. So if a person is in a normally hydrated state and then eats a lot of salt, the salt will pull water away from water's normal functions in the body, causing a state of dehydration.

A person then needs more water to keep performing those functions, since too much of their body's water has been absorbed by the excess salt. So they get thirsty, and they drink more water.

Then, after drinking enough water to quench their thirst, they get puffy because now the body has all the water absorbed by the salt plus the extra water that the person had to drink to keep their body functioning. When a person has enough water in them to be absorbed by the salt plus continue the normal functions of water in the body, then they aren't thirsty anymore.

I live in a very humid place. Whenever I have salt in the house, it pulls water right out of the air and swells up and becomes wet. When that happens, there is of course a little less salt in the air. So the air is a little less hydrated, because the salt is holding onto the water. Same with our bodies. When our bodies retain water after eating a lot of salt, our bodies are a little less hydrated, because the salt is holding onto the water. Sure, the water held by the salt is inside our bodies, but our bodies can't use it because it's being held by the salt.

Since people observe that the body retains a lot of water when the body has consumed a lot of salt, they conclude (I think wrongly), that excess salt helps prevent dehydration. Good observing, but in my opinion, it's just a wrong conclusion.

On the other hand, a small amount of salt like from rinsed seaweed or from swimming in the ocean, or from the natural salts in many raw vegan foods is probably good. I think the RDA for sodium is way too high.

I'm open minded though. Are there any particular diseases associated with a lack of sodium in the body? In places like the highlands of New Guinea, people have lived for centuries with absolutely no salt added to their diets, because they never traded for salt or went to the ocean to get it. Do they have a greater incidence of disease related to sodium deficiency? Does anybody know?

Regarding fat, I believe that some fat - including fat from overt fat sources - is essential for good health. A SMALL amount of really high quality fat from fresh whole nuts, seeds, and avocados plus whatever small amount of fats are in nonovert fat sources is probably best. FRESH is probably best, as opposed to the dehydrated nuts and seeds usually available at the store. We can freshen up our store-bought seeds and nuts by soaking and sprouting them.

Too much fat is obviously very harmful, and we people from the industrialized nations can see that all too clearly. Many of us have experienced that first hand. But I also believe that too LITTLE fat can be extremely detrimental. We don't usually see the problems associated with severe malnutrition. When we find out how much better we look and feel with less fat, and maybe we've fasted and experienced relatively short term fruitarianism, we mistakenly conclude that if less fat is really good, then no fat ever would be the ultimate.

Of course, there may be some people who for whatever reason have great difficulty digesting fat at all. Nobody can speak for everyone.

In my opinion the raw food "movement" seems surprisingly lacking in moderation. Even with a 100% raw food diet, it's either none of this, and/or only that, and/or an unlimited amount of something else.

Where are the gurus of raw food moderation?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2007 07:56AM by suncloud.

Wow, suncloud, your thoughts about salt really resonate with me.

When I eat a lot of cooked foods, I seem to have this strong salt addiction that kicks in. Not only do I always want to add extra salt to all the cooked food on my plate, but later, I start to crave salty snacks like salty popcorn. Funny, since being raw, I haven't touched the salt-shaker! Haven't wanted to.

This salt thing is really bad - I remember my grandfather adding salt to absolutely everything, even sweet desserts. Said he couldn't taste it otherwise. It seems to get worse as a person gets older.

The other night, I went out to a restaurant for my daughter's going away dinner, and decided to go ahead and order a cooked meal, even though I haven't eaten cooked for some time now. Thought it might be interesting. Sure enough, as soon as I took the first bite, I realized it needed salt to make it taste better. I hadn't really noticed until then that I have pretty much stopped using salt. Good lesson! I wonder why this connection (at least for me) between salt and cooked.

And, despite drinking huge quantities of water, I always used to be dehyrated, until I stopped adding all this salt to my food. These days I only drink about a bottle of water a day, and only on days I exercise, yet I feel fully hydrated!

I also wonder if there is a connection between over consumption of salt and excessive sugar cravings. Those also seem to get me when I give myself too much salt.

Anyone else have this type of experience?

Sapphire

That's a very interesting insight suncloud, and I agree with it now that I've thought about it. I think what is happening is that as people eat salt, the body immediately starts to work to keep an electrolyte balance and dissolves some of it in water where it is stored away. Your insight about that withdrawn water being taken from the body and thus causing dehydration makes a lot of sense to me, since the body is not free to release that water when necessary since that would disrupt the electrolyte balance. So it reminas locked away until potassium and other negative ions are absorbed/released by the body so that the release of sodium can be performed safely. Hadn't thought of salt as drawing away water resources from the rest of the body before in this way, thanks for the interesting insight! It explains why people on higher salt diets may still feel dehydrated even after drinking lots of water.

Cheers,
Jose

I have been reading your information recently and really enjoying it. I have some information written by Shelton and would like to share.

It is such an obvious fact that in a state of nature few, if any animals ever receive salt from any source, save from their foods, that it should not require statement. The enormous herds of bison that once roamed the plains of America did not get salt. The numerous herds of wild horses that are now all but extinct did not receive salt. There are still large numbers of deer in
America and these do not receive salt. Birds, rabbits, wolves, and other wild animals that still exist in abundance are not salt eaters. The vigor and fine condition maintained by the bison, horse, and deer reveal ho false is the contention that salt is essential to animal life.

Man lived on thew earth of ages before he acquired the salt-eating habit. Livestock were introduced to salt eating by man and did not bring the practice with them from their wild state.

Salt is fatal to certain animals - hogs and chicken for example.

Cattle have to be taught to eat salt. Put it in their food, sprinkle it on hay , until the acquire the taste.

A teaspoon of salt given to a non-user increases the heart beat ten or more beats a minute, will occasion vommiting, or put much mucous into the stomach to protect its delicate lining. The salt is flushed into the intestine, where more protective mucous is poured out upon it and is hurried along the colon

Salt causes a decay of the sense of taste until it is no longer capable of appreciating the fine delicate flavors of foods.

Salt retards gastric digestion. The genuinely absorptive work of the villi that line the small intestines is paralylized by salt, which causes the failure of certain individuals to absorb vitamins.

The tissues of the body are adapted to a specific osmotic pressure. When this rise in osmotic pressure is due to salt eating the process of excretion is not normally carried out due to the inhibiting effect of salt upon the kidney function. Both sodium and chlorine hinder the normal excretion of water by the kidney cells

The chief sources of supply are, in the order named: celery, spinach, romaine lettuce, tomatoes, strawberries, apples, avocados and bananas

Sheltons' work provides alot more insight, but I thought I would share this.

I've noticed the bringing up of TC Fry with his death and high fruit eating.
I think his high fat content of loving to eat nuts may have contributed to his
problems. I read he was stabbed several times, shot in the head, and was in a
car accident. Shelton was also a big nut eater along with clabbered milk and
cheese. Shelton was also in a car accident causing him problems in his later
years.

T.C. Fry promoted fruitarianism, but his actual eating habits were not even vegan (or organic), so he can't be used to prove, disprove, or investigate anything about fruitarianism.

> either from raw proponents or other people. If I
> find that things aren't working for me, then I
> seek external input, as I am trying to rectify
> whatever isn't working for me. If people offer me
> input on a question I asked, I don't sit there and
> argue with them. I thank them for their input, and
> I decide what to do with it.


Thank yo so much for your input bryan you do so much to inform and pass on quality information and i enjoy you and your pressence at all the different forums i am at!

8D

life vs lifelessness

If you read 80/10/10 It will give you the answer to all of these questions.

Didn't have time to read the whole thread, but Im going to have to agree with Bryan about the poisonous nature of inorganic sodium chloride. Definately dehydrating! eat a spoonful and see what happens! (don't actually you will get sick!)

anaken, I have been strongly influenced by 80/10/10 book and I still think it is one of the most important books on the planet. However, the salt and fat answer is not that simple.
I strongly advise to watch this documentary:
[www.youtube.com]

...without prejudice.

i know a guy who does the david wolfe thing and he is chubby and has the worst body ordor

i am doing 811 and thriving.

life vs lifelessness

I still haven't looked it up. I refuse! (80/10/10.) Since no one wants to spell it out on the board, I'll guess. If the 80% is all fruit, I imagine it may be great for a cleanse, or perhaps for people who may be prepared for such a diet, but as a sustainable diet for a "regular joe." I don't know.

80% Carbs
10% Protein
10% Fats

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

80% simple carbs
10% overt fats
10% proteins (amino acids parts)

eat all the fruit can can, all the veggies you want and some seeds and nuts.

life vs lifelessness

2 years on for me , every day better still

life vs lifelessness

80/10/10 does include a large variety of leafy greens, and in greater volumes than the SAD, way greater. One should be mindful of the ned to assess one's responses to a regimen, and to be willing to alter the regimen sensibly to one's needs.

I am glad this old thread was revived for newer members to consider, but it does make me miss Anaken's thoughtful presence on these boards . . .

I lowered my fat to 10% because being higher gave me massive candida, sinus infections, yeast infections. At 10%, it's all good

My video to keep me inspired on my health quest: [www.youtube.com]