Once upon a time there was a ten year old boy who had been eating completely raw for almost five years. He had asthma before he started eating raw but now he was as healthy as could be and happily munched his way through fruit, green smoothies and green juices. Then one day out of curiosity he decided to eat a croissant. That night he started to cough. And cough and cough. This went on for two days and two nights. Then his breath started smelling something awful as the mucus trapped in his lungs got infected and that night his body started running a very high temperature. His temperature stayed high for a day and another night and when it finally went down to normal again he got a red rash which started on his legs and slowly went up to cover his entire body, including his face and it itched like mad. This rash lasted for about two days and then the boy finally started recovering. He swore he would never eat cooked food again and lived happily ever after. Until the next time he forgot and tried eating some cooked food again

That's what happened when my youngest ate a croissant last Saturday. That was eight days ago and he is still coughing when he runs. This is about the third time since we started eating raw that he ate something cooked and each time the physical reaction has been exactly the same. And each time I have been totally in awe at the effect of some bread or some cheese or a sweet on his body.
I just wanted to share this with you guys.

Love, francis

Was the croissant passed its due date? maybe he is allergic to one of the ingridients? Seems like an awufully strong reaction for one item of food.

Veganlife: I wouldn't doubt her story. think about how young this boy is. how he hasn't had the 'opportunity' to fill his body with improper food like most of us have and therefore 'dilute' ones effect from foreign objects. on top of that he's been 100% raw for 5 years. a 30 year old whose been raw for that long (or even much less) will have a similar reaction to some oily bread. bread isn't exactly one step down on the chain from a green smoothy or even a baked yam or some millet. It may be a paradox of being clean, but that is how your body will react to such things if you continue to pursue health.

thanks for sharing Francis. I hope you kid continues to enjoy his health, or if he decides theres another lifestyle thats more appealing, to do so as gradually and as healthfully as possible.

wow frannie

i liked the 'tale of a boy and a croissant"

though it was a sad story
and it made me cry

but it was hopeful too
cuz he happily munched away at his greens and fruit smoothies

I agree with anaken. When you have small children they are constantly getting sick while trying to build their immune systems. There is a good possibility that some of these sicknesses are actually reactions to the cooked food that they are introduced to. They just slowly get use to it over time.



KelBel

do you think this is a sign of a strong body? A body that is giving a lound NO! signal so that the offending food is never eaten again = or is it a sign of weakness? how come most people can eat these foods and only have slight discomfort?
Sometimes the raw body seems weak, it's like 'c'mon! suck it up!" but I do believe myself that if the body didn't shout NO like this, the food will be eaten more often.

Sorry just talking and rambling to myself really : ))

This is a sign of a strong and vital body. Healthy children have this issue, and it arises as childhood diseases, until the body finally gives up and permits the cooked foods without complaints or symptoms.

Azura Skye:

easiest way to think about it is comparing to drugs and alcohol. it takes awhile to work up to smoking two packs of cigs a day without discomfort. give a healthy non-smoker (especially one with comparitivly less mucous) or a small child 1 puff and there is going to be a strong reaction. someone growing up exposed to second hand smoke will be able to tolerate smokeing easier, they also might have the 'advantage' of tolerating things like smog, why is this? do these people have super-lungs?

when I first starting drinking around 16 or so, even though I never 'abused alcohol' It didn't take me too long to work up to being able to finish a bottle of Jack Daniels and still feel strait/sociable. knowing what I know now about health I attribute this less to genetics and more to my primarily processed grain base diet, eating anything general mills could slap together that I could eat with a spoon or spread some kind of dairy product on.

thanks anaken - that makes a lot of sense! You have helped me see that a bit clearer : )

so what goes on in the body when we can finished a bottle of JD and not feel drunk? The body can't really build up an immunity to such toxins? I guess it just stores it away to deal with later - wheras if youre healthy you are clean enough to deal with the toxin straight away - hence feeling rough soon after, is this right?

What about a gluten free, organic snack?! Who's NOT allergic to a croissant made with junk?! Aww, I feel sorry for him that he is not provided with choices of organic, gluten free, healthy cooked foods. I'm about 95% raw, and love to have a nice bowl of rice with veggies. Do you think he would have an asthma attack if it was cooked, yet a food he was not allergic to, organic and healthy? Just sounds a little over radical for a young child.
Why not let him choose how much raw he wants to eat, then provide as a loving parent, very healthy non raw choices. He may end up being 95% raw, or 75%, but it should not be forced on him to be 100%, then give him a known food that will induce an asthma attack. That is an oxymoron, that you want him to be raw, because this is the "best" for him, then pull a mean stunt like that. I mean, there are croissants that are low allergy, in most health food stores. Just take the time to look for them. Then, if he wants a croissant, give him one that will not give him an asthma attack.

I would call child protective services if I knew who you were. Your tale is not one with a good moral to the story.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/29/2007 11:18PM by Rawrrr!.

I don't know about the first question. the body is mysterious. I was just drawing a conclusion that my body was already quite toxic from dietary abuse (not so much from meat but what people don't realize as the equally damaging grain/dairy) as to require more from the stimulation and toxic effect of the alchol to have as much effect (and also that alcohol and processed grain/starch might be related). as for the second, yes it does build an immunity! its another way of saying you have so much of the toxin in you that the small ammount comparitively doesn't bother you. you ever see "a princess bride" haha.

so yeah you feel the toxin much more because you don't have all the barriers, and hopefully the symptoms experienced afterwards would be the body trying to expell the toxin.

so when someone says, oh so and so eats whatever they wants, never excersises, smokes/drinks etc, never gets sick... don't be in awe, they're bathing in it.

Re: I would call child protective services if I knew who you were.

That seems a bit extreme and unjustified and a hasty decision to me. You may not even know the whole story. Are you sure this would be the best course of action?

From reading the post, it sounds like the boy decided to eat the croissant on his own. No parent can control a child enough to prevent something like this. Anyways, the boy needed to find out for himself if eating a croissant would serve him. I guess he found out it wouldn't. What doesn't kill me just makes me stronger.

Do you have children, Bryan?

If I knew my child had asthma, I would know which foods triggered them, tell my child that he is not allow to have this food that is dangerous for him, then find alternative foods for my child, and there are many, many alternatives foods for people with allergies. I would have not let my child eat that food either, since in the past, the child is well aware of what foods gave him asthma attacks. You can die from an asmtha attack, so that was not a loving way to teach him to be 100% raw.

It sounds like the symptoms he had has nothing to do with an asthma attack. Asthma is when your trachea becomes restricted. I have never heard of the side effects of asthma being mucus or rashes.

As far as calling child services, I wouldn't go that far. It sounds as though Frannie does not know all of the foods that are causing these symptoms. To requote her:
"This is about the third time since we started eating raw that he ate something cooked and each time the physical reaction has been exactly the same. And each time I have been totally in awe at the effect of some bread or some cheese or a sweet on his body."

I would never want to cause my child any harm but at the same time I would not want him going to a sleepover and having pizza or something else there without him knowing what it can do to him. I does prepare him for future events when he will have to be alone and make decisions on his own. Can you imagine if he ate something like that for the first time away from home? Even if you tell another parent or chaperone they may not always be there and may not know what to do it that situation.

Perfect example:
When my mom worked in a preschool there was a young girl there who was allergic to peanut butter. Her parents told the entire staff that she could not have peanut butter. One day they were making peanut butter treats for a class project. They figured she could still have fun getting her hands into the mix as long as she didn't eat it. They were wrong. A few minutes later they had to rush her off in an ambulance because her trachea swelled shut from just being around it. The preschool director's response was that the parents weren't specific enough.



KelBel

Rawrrr,

I don't have children, but I was a child once. And as a young child, I was not under parental supervision 24x7. Even as a young boy, I was able to get access to foods that my parents knew nothing about. Tell me, how does a parent, who isn't there 24x7, prevent such a thing?

I don't see negligence here.

a simple metaphor is caluses
folks who eat cooked or smoke
have internal "caluses"
karate dudes who break boards...

but if you want to do massage
if you want sensitivity
you don't want caluses

a drag racer requires nitro fuel
that doesn't mean it's slower than a car or diesel truck
and none of them run well with white flour in the tank

even people who smoke
will be killed by a poisonous snake
if they haven't built up immunity
with a program of taking snake venom
why measure strength by poisons one can tolerate?

a healthy body uses whatever it can to get rid of junk:
puking, rashes, diarreha, sweating, crying, snot, spitting, coughing
it isn't pretty but it works...
it's when toxins can no longer be eliminated, (that the body is weak/compromised),
then the toxins are stored
and cancer results years later

happy way is right
the entire universe operates on metaphors
and within them

Hi Rawrrr,

I think you must have got the wrong impression from reading my son's adventure with a croissant. Bryan was right in assuming I didn't know about him choosing to eat a croissant. My son is ten so he has pocketmoney and I can't be with him all the time. Obviously, as a loving and caring mother, I felt very sorry for him when he became so ill and I lovingly looked after him and nursed him back to good health (which in this case meant I allowed his body to run the course of his detox without interfering with it, just gently persuading my son to fast on water and orange juice when he had the fever and rubbing castor oil into his chest to ease the coughing).
I wouldn't dream of deliberately feeding my child something I knew was going to make him ill and if I came across as watching my son's reaction to the croissant with detachment it's because there wasn't much else I could do.
I'll risk you wanting to call child protective services again by saying that I wish my eldest son, who is sixteen, would have the same severe reaction to eating cooked food. Instead he gets away with eating crisps at school with "only" a nice crop of spots to show for it and it affects his mood by making him agressive. He is addicted to these crisps because of the Monosodium Glutamate and other addi(c)tives which the crisps manufacturers are allowed to put in their goodies to keep us eating them. I don't suppose there is much point reporting them to the child protective services . It is the authorities who are allowing them to get away with poisoning us.

Love, francis

As I mentioned before, buy organic healthy foods and have them in your home, so your kids won't have to resort to junk food, because they can't get real food at home, other than raw choices. Raw food is not the only healthy food. If you want to be 100% raw, than be!

What I did, was have an abundance of raw veggies, fruits, nuts and seeds at home, as well as going to health food stores with my kids, allowing them to choose the healthy foods they wanted. Yes, I did even monitor the food they chose, because not all food at the health food store is worthy of my children eating or me spending my money on. They ate more raw food than most kids in America, but they also were allowed to eat other healthy food.

I also took my kids trick or treating, then I would offer them $5 or $10 dollars for the candy, plus take them to the health food store and buy them some organic candy. The choice was theirs, but every year, they chose to take the money and have fun choosing candy at the health food store. It was only one time a year, and it did not kill them. I'd throw away the candy I bought from them. They got to have fun with their friends, have healthy candy, dress up and take pictures in their costumes, that they still giggle at when look at them now.

I find it nauseating, that anyone trys to force their kids to be like Storms family. He may have a thriving family, but I wonder if many choose to mimic them, because of pride and wanting to impress other raw foodists. I wonder if the motives are not pure. This will hurt your kids, more than the 100% raw will help them.

Food is what keeps us alive, sane, happy, peaceful and healthy. Food is very personal. You don't know how your children feel inside, everyday of their lives. Just because you don't need certain foods to be healthy or feel happy, does not mean they are the same.

For God sakes, take your kids to a health food store and let them buy some healthy food of their choice, to take to school with them, so they can be happy, and not have to buy crap at school because you won't let them have a healthy version at home.

If this is beyond you, I can only say a prayer for your family, and one day, hopefully soon, it will dawn on you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/01/2007 09:59PM by Rawrrr!.

I don't think it would make a lot of difference to my eldest if I let him take healthy cooked food to school. At his age all the other kids are eating crisps, fries and burgers and drinking soft drinks and he doesn't want to be the odd one out. At sixteen not many kids want to be so different from everyone else. With all the hormonal changes going on and suddenly having an almost grown up body whilst you're really still a boy, it's hard being that crazy kid who only brings apples/healthy treats from the healthfood shop to school. All I can do for now is try and educate him, show him a good example at home and hope that by the time he is eighteen he will realize that it's "hip to be healthy and cool to be conscious" and that it is totally ok to be different. And no, I'm not buying him crisps, burgers, fries or soft drinks but he has his own money as well.
With the youngest it's different, he's still in primary school and him eating raw is totally accepted by the other kids. He doesn't get cravings like his older brother does and really enjoys eating raw. He just gets curious every now and then and forgets that cooked food and sweets make him ill. He happily goes to birthday parties, school christmas dinners and on school trips where he stays away for a week at a time taking and preparing his own food and treats. The eldest doesn't even want the kids at his school to know that we eat raw at home.

All our kids are different inside and out and as parents we do the best we can. It is hard having the whole country on a crappy diet. Every time you turn around you see an obese child. IMO, those are chidren in need of protection. It is hard for me to say no to crappy food in socail situations and kids don't have the life experience to understand completely why it is so important to make healthy choices. They're kids. Maybe Rawrrr did a perfect job bringing up healthy kids. I know I am doing the best I can with what I've got. Most of my friends give their kids junk on a regular basis and I believe they think they are doing the best for their children. They would call vegetarians fanatics and mostly raw/vegan would be completely over the top. I think we all need support and advise but no loving parent doing the best that they know needs to be judged. I have every cofidence when I say no one knows what it is like to rear my children better than I do. I think that is true for most parents. It aint easy and no one should pretend that it is.

I understand what you are saying about your teen. My kids are 19 & 20 now, but there is still the temptations to eat junk, and they eat alot of it now. To my surprise, sometimes they help their friends with natural remedies and tell me about it, like they want me to be proud of them.

It's hard being a parent that swims against the current. Being a good example at home will be deeply imprinted in them, and someday, hopefully sooner than later, it will dawn apon them.

And yes, when kids are younger, it is more exceptable to bring healthy food to school, and my kids had more confidence to stand up for what they were eating. I would never buy my kids junk food, either. I told them when they got jobs, they could buy their own, and they did,lol.


I tryed to comprimise with my kids (buying them a healthy/healthier version), because their bodies may need a food that will help them to thrive, that I felt was not a healthy food.


I wanted my children to feel they owned their bodies, and not me.


Children are intelligent, and we can learn from from them. They grasped why certain foods were healthy or not healthy, at an early age. They did a darn good job of eating healthy most of time, but I did not expect perfection.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2007 12:22AM by Rawrrr!.

pakd4fun Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Maybe Rawrrr
> did a perfect job bringing up healthy kids.

I can see you did not comprehend one thing I wrote. You didn't even get the gist of it. That is okay.

I may not help you or op, but I believe in my heart that I will help someone out there.

Hi Frannie,

What an interesting anecdote you posted here. Too bad he is so allergic after so long on raw, but I have found that my allergies havent gone away either. Its not that I want to eat some foods Im allergic to, but it would be nice to know my body had strengthened against them.

Thanks for posting this valuable insight for everyone to read.


You sound like an awesome and balanced parent and I think your kids and family are very lucky to have you. It takes courage and love to allow our kids to go into the world without us hovering around them, and making all their choices for them. (btw, I have two children with allergies and know the many challenges)


Hope hes feeling much better now, what an ordeal for you all.

Best, Annie

Thanks everyone for your valuable input.
I believe that it's probably easier to change a child's diet in such a radical way if you do it at a young age. They are not so addicted to cooked food yet. I think that most of the problems parents have with getting young children to eat their (cooked) food is that these children still have (some of) their natural food instincts that they were born with, intact. Give them fruit and they will eat it, give them a typical meat,potatoe,cooked veg dinner and a lot of two and three year olds will rebel. If you persevere, as I did, because you believe that it's important that a child eats his dinner, they will eventually become addicted as well and your dinner table tantrums are over. My youngest hated his cooked potatoes and spinach but after we went raw and I put cut up veggies and fruit on the table our problems were over. Unfortunately it was already too late for my eldest to make such an easy transition, when he was younger he also didn't like to eat his dinner but by the time we went raw he loved his cooked food.

In The States, where most of you guys live, a lot of people are already aware of the raw vegan diet and you have restaurants and healthfood shops selling raw products. I live in Amsterdam, The Netherlands and I think my eldest is probably the only raw teen in the whole of the country. I keep telling him to think of himself as a pioneer but somehow that idea does not appeal to him

On the other hand, when Rawrrr mentioned the child protective services I had to think about how easy it is in The States to have your child taken away from you for feeding them a raw vegan diet. When we started eating raw my youngest was still having twice yearly check-ups for growth and development and when I told the health authority that I was feeding him raw they called him back for these check-ups for two years longer than they would normally have done. His growth slowed down and they were concerned about this but they never tried to stop me from feeding him this way and eventually they stopped the check-ups because he was obviously a healthy child. I get comments from other mothers at his school sometimes because he doesn't grow as fast as the other kids but I have come to believe that all these growth charts that they measure children against are based on children consuming lots of dairy and meat products which are full of growth hormones. Holland is a big dairy consuming country and since the second world war children here are getting taller all the time. IMO that can't be because of improved food intake, if anything our diet has got worse since then, with the introduction of white bread, canned foods and especially all the overprocessed food which has become so popular.

I agree with Bryan

Frannie opened herself honestly. We are friends here. She is a good mother.


I myself have the same things happening to me if I eat cooked food.

except I cough up thick white mucus and have the worst pneumonia I cannot breathe and a week pasts and I have no idea what happened my brain is fried, after I ate some cheese once, plus I also vomited it up, so whatever little there was did that. Of course people were loking at me saying, " i thought you didn't get sick on raw foods!" and I had to tell them I what i ate..

Victoria Boutenko said her and her husband after one year raw decided to treat themselves to cooked food one night. They were sick for a week and very very ill.

plus my teeth and stomach felt, rotten, all of it

one 100% raw guy ate a steak one night, and died!!





Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2007 09:20AM by coconutcream.