I'm having a dilemma and am seeking other perspectives...

I have a 7 year-old daughter who has been raised on raw foods since she was about 2. When she was about 4 she began "sneaking" foods that she knew we didn't want her to have. Usually we tried gently reminding her that that was food we didn't eat in our family. When we went to gatherings at houses where there was cooked food you could often find her under the table where the food was laid out. We were torn between just not going to these events (we also had raw potlucks at the time) or just keeping a strong eye on her whereabouts.

When she was 5 1/2 her father (who is the stronger - and more controlling - about raw food of the two of us) and i split up and i decided i was tired of the sneakiness and that i would allow her to eat what she wanted. but i still had my 'rules,' i.e. one salad a day, whole foods, no animal products, etc... and i felt sad watching her want less raw food the more she ate cooked food, but also i felt relief to go to potlucks (that were usually vegan whole food) and not feel the pressure to follow her moves...

Anyway, six months later her father and i decided to co-parent together again and we were all back to raw foods. Now she is almost 7. We have been living with my in-laws for the past year. (They are whole-food vegans.) She sneaks food on a daily basis. She goes to neighbors and gets junk food from them.

I have such a hard time letting go of controlling what she eats. I feel like i'm her mom and it's my job to make sure she's eating well. I feel scared when she doesn't have a certain amount of greens in her day. I'm afraid if i "let her" (since she does anyway) eat what she wants outside of the house she will go fill up there and never come home. She talks about how she can't wait to grow up so she can eat cooked food. She knows all the info about nutrition. She is probably one of the most knowledgeable 7 year-olds about wild and domestic plant foods in the western world! but i can see the resentment towards raw foods building...


just to elaborate on our lifestyle...

we live on a beautiful piece of land where we have an abundance of fruit trees/vines and a huge garden we work in most days. These days we are gathering oranges, grapefruits, clementines, pomellos, passionfruit, avocados, more peas and pecans than you can imagine!, kale, collards, cabbage, celery, chards, onions, and various wild greens like mallow and milk thistle. (And during the rest of the year we have figs, mulberries, persimmons, cactus fruit, grapes galore, and all the summer crops like tomatoes, basil, cucumbers, etc.....

as for our daily diet now,
we usually have watermelon and cantelope first thing,
then we go to the garden and pick celery, kale, and wild greens and we make a green smoothie with frozen bananas, persimmons, oranges, and dates. (She loves the smoothies but still sees it a bit as chore.)
our other main meal is usually a salad or for her she likes dipping greens and other veggies in guacamole. We also have crackers we have made in the sun and olives that we have harvested and processed.
Throughout the other hours of the day we snack on fruits.

The foods she 'sneaks' are cakes and breads and sugar out of the sugar jar (she gets dates everyday too). Also any grain and beans out of the pot...She idealizes what other people eat - like pasta, bread and butter, potatoes, etc. she's tasted these foods and knows she likes them (what kid doesn't love white starch!)

My experience in the past with "allowing" new foods that previously were not okay, meant just more pushing and pushing. So i know that if i let go, it's all or nothing...

About school, she is unschooled, so eating on a daily basis with kids is not an issue. we see kids just for playing in homes or in the park. Actually, yesterday her friend was over and they both enjoyed having almond frozen banana milkshakes. (Who wouldn't!)

My daughter told me yesterday, "I wish everyone in the world ate only raw food, because then i wouldn't have to sneak..." I wish too, because when we used to be around other raw food kids, there was not too much talk about cooked foods. I think she just really has a need to do what everyone else is doing...

So.. any thoughts would be appreciated... Thanks!

-All you can do is MODEL good behavior to her. If she sees you and respects you - what else can we do? In the end, we are persuaded most often by seeing a glorious example of who we want to be. This is what we consciously / unconsciously emulate. They say the greatest gift a father can give his children is to show great love to their mother. This model will determine how they show love to themselves and others their whole lives. Whether they are abusers - or nurturers.

-If you fret about her eating, she will remember/attach raw food-ism with fretting or controlling. You don't want that.

-Offer healthy snacks at home and be happy. Give her an allowance to CONSCIOUSLY buy other things....even non-healthy things....if she wishes. At least then it will be her conscious choice. After all, you are trying to promote your daughters consciousness above all. Tell you you support her, accept her and love her.

-Just my opinions.

-David Z. Mason

Your current daily diet sounds amazingly ideal.

But to me it sounds like, (raw food aside) that you went into parenthood with this sort of idea that you had to heavily control your daughter, and break her will, otherwise she would "go wild" and do all sorts of horrible things. Usually the child will actually seem to "confirm" this later by their reactions to all of the control and the meanness with which it is carried out. So now it seems you have a punitive control/rebel relationship with your daughter, in which you think it is an all or nothing sort of war. It is really sad that things worked out like that, and I feel for your family as to this situation. It is certainly valid to want to protect your child from the sort of chemicalized toxic "food" in the world right now that would make them sick. It seems food has gained a very high emotional status for your daughter instead of just being nourishment, and it sounds like she wants to use it to fill a non-food hole inside of her; these holes can often develop from parental punishments. You need to build trust and truly respect and listen to her feelings in order to move forward I think, no matter what happens with food.

Force the change you want to see in the world through direct, socialist democracy!

[www.dreamingearth.net]

hmmm... where does she get the omega 3s?

flax

Hey-- So, I was a rebelious eater. In my case, my mother wanted to control what I ate so I stayed thin (something that had been ingrained in her by my grandmother). I used to overeat, ALOT (like 5 slices of pizza with a huge amount of coke, not a big deal-I could eat the whole pie). At the time, I thought I was just eating the way I wanted but in retrospect I was eating to be rebellious against my mother--food became a comfort thing.Conscious choice becames unconscious choice; I would eat soemthing my mother didn't want me to just so I could, not because I actually wanted it (I would eat until my stomach HURT).
I would agree with the posts that say offer her the healthy things but let her choose her own path. It sounds as if she likes raw food, let her eating raw food become a conscious, personal choice rather than a "my mother makes me do it." In the end, if she is not making a conscious choice, when she grows up and leaves the first thing she is going to do is go "crazy"--binge drinking in college case in point. Also think about what feeling like she has to sneak what she wants, keep it from her family, affects her. For me, it became a complex--I still feel uncomfortable talking about food with my mother. Talk to her and be honest, and let her be honest with you.
Hope everything works out!~Kate

I, too , am having some problems with my six year old and the raw diet. She has health issues that have gone away since eating mostly raw for the past seven months. She loves raw but does not want to give up junk food. We have allowed a cooked meal one to two times a week, some junky. It has been making us sick and we keep making that meal healthier and healthier. When I read what you wrote, sounds like a dream life by the way, I thought less of it as a food issue and more of it as a trust issue. If my child were sneaking to break my rules and lyeing about it I would be first and foremost concerned about the fact that she is dishonest about it. It is true that you need to address her problems with the diet but first and formost in any relationship comes trust and honesty. When children lie or do any similar reprehensible behavior it is so important to teach them how very wrong it is and how it affects relationships, not just with you but with everyone she is involved with. If you sneak and lie you become a sneaky liar. How bad is that? That is how I explain it to my children. Since I don't have a lot of experience with the food issues and I am struggleing with my own child I cannot say too much about that. It sounds like Kategreen had some good insight on that. My kids always negotiate with me about food. Like we include eggs (from our chickens) and wild rice in our diet. Maybe you could add some healthy cooked if she promises to be honest from now on. The more responsible she is the more responsibility she is given. Sneaking and lying causes her to lose privileges. She controls her own life in that way. I would never worry about being too controlling when it comes to lying. Let her know that sneaking and lying will become a part of who she is, second nature, if she doesn't stop it now and never do it again. She is also using it to run from her problem which is getting some control over what she puts in her mouth. Remind her it is your job to make sure she grows up healthy and happy with all the skills to make healthy happy choices. Good luck!!

hey there heather...well i agree with Kate...food is something that most kids and teens use to control something in their life when they feel everything else is out of their reach!!!....i used food as a control thing as well because at the age of 2 i was put on strict rules.....it was tough and it is really hard but if you let her make her own decisions and let her choose things at the store (even if not raw or vegan) she learns that food is her choice and a nourishment not a control factor and she will see you eating healthy and wil make her own decisions based on her wants and needs....it may take a while for her to eat all raw again...but give her the options to choose what it is she wants...she is still developing her thoughts and personality...so don't squash it with the need for total control and reins over her....she will rebel worse as she gets older if you contiue this...good luck with all of this......and like kate said be open with her...discuss why raw foods are good and remind her but don't force it upon her......allow her to talk with you if she had a piece of pizza somewhere let her share that with you and tell you why she wanted it and that way food isn'ta secret or control issue....she will most likely grow up witha complex about food and possible ED's for control...so try to be open about it until she is ready....good luck with everything...i know it must be tough....but you have to be open!!!
i hope it all works out
keep us posted
love earth angel
xoxoxoxoxoxoxox

It's difficult because you are in an environment where she can get something other than what you offer her.

Education is the key, and while she is still very young, letting her go thru her own experiences with foods will help her in to make the better choices in the future.

As David said, role models are what you are to her,and that is better than all the 'controlling' you try to do with her food intake,

Kids want desperatly to please their parents, and you might just be surprised someday to overhear her tell a friend or two about the raw food diet and what it can do for a person.

It's not a bad thing to let someone own the natural consequences of their choices, this is how they learn and make better choices for themselves.

I think the most important thing if for the 2 parents be togehter on this, it won't help that one is more controlling than the other. Let go of the control issue.

Love,
Prism

Listen to David.

I have been thinking about all that you guys have written because it so influences the way I am deciding about the route to more raw with my family. I have never had an eating disorder, just a few issues. My sister had anorexia when we were in high school, though. I can only draw from her personally and I know there are a lot of different food issues that can develope. It is really important to follow what YOU feel is the right choice with the other parent. While taking peoples opinion into account it is ultimately the parents responsibility to make the choices. I feel like controlling food over appearence and weight and controlling over health is going to be more likely to cause problems.

Heather-You know from homeschooling, I'm sure, that there are many routes to take in teaching the same thing depending on the learning style and personality of the individual child. I know you talk to your daughter about healthy foods but maybe it is too much of a scientific aproach or too little of one. Maybe you aren't finding the right way to communicate with her.

I started thinking about how I feel our approach to our kid's drastiic diet changes is working out for us. It is a work in progress. After reading this post it felt like a good time to take inventory. I think in our situation it has helped to have more than one child, we have three. I became vegetarian when my oldest was three. She didn't understand the relation of animals alive to the ones on the plate. When she was four she saw CHICKEN RUN (movie) and made the connection and never ate animals again. I decided to never let my second one eat animals until she made that connection. She is six and says she will eat meat but doesn't want it to be cows, pigs, chickens or crawfish. I homeschool my children and I decide where they go, who they go with and what is off limits for health and safety-everytime. I tell them they can eat junk food and do drugs when they are grown if they choose it but it is a parents job to protect their young until they are grown. We don't argue nature's laws. It is the way it is. I know a lot of people don't agree with our decisions but these are our kids and so far they are doing spectacular. We do always give reasons, vald ones, for our decisions and allow them to make arguements for their side in a repectful manner. We make many decisions by voting although some things are not up for a vote. One thing I do that helps is my kids are very involved in their raw diet. We are very diverse in what we make. Too much repetition can be boring for some people, especially kids. I make pie's for a meal. We put a bunch of raw food out and custom make a meal. They can eat whatever they want as long as it's raw. We discuss our feelings about food all the time. It has become a huge part of our lives. We are going to be in a small cabin with my husbands family and tons of chips, koolaid, cookies and meat they hunted and killed themselves. Even if that part gets easy I don't imagine it ever gets fun. I guess you just start to ignore it the best you can.

Wow, David Mason, you advice is ALWAYS good. I just couldn't pass up the opportunity to comment. I'm so impressed with your wisdom and logical thought. Excellent advice!

And I sympathize with, you, Heather because I know how hard it is to watch your child do something that you KNOW is not good for them. Stay strong and continue to set the good example. You will be rewarded for your efforts.

I can realte. Give my kids pizza and they will not say no! And then, they will get sick. I am philosophical about my kids choices. I do the best I can at home. I make an effort to give them the best foods I can. The ultimate choice is up to them, because one day they will move out and live their own life. I have my own to live too. I am aware of how short it is. So, I enjoy what I've got and try looking after myself too.

Gosia


RawGosia channel
RawGosia streams

heather wrote (quoting her daughter):
"I wish everyone in the world ate only raw food, because then i wouldn't have to sneak..."

Oh, my, how sad that is. That shows such guilt for the little one. This has obviously become a big issue in your family.

As to your question, "Am I too controlling", my rule of thumb is, if someone asks that question, they probably are ;^D.

Have you read Victoria Boutenko's book, Raw Family? Its a light, easy read and quite enjoyable. She describes how her family went raw. She had to children eating the SAD diet at the time and didn't force at all. IIRC, one of the kids didn't get with the program right away but kept eating SAD at school. Nothing was said to him (her?) but s/he noticed the others in the family feeling better and got inspired to eat that way, too.

Personally, I think it's worse for your daughter to stress out about food than to eat a few cakes in her life. Make the wonderful delicious raw foods available to her and RESPECT HER ENOUGH to let her eat what she wants without judgement. IMHO it's more important to help her learn how to manage her life, her impulses, and being human, than to be sure every morsel she eats passes the purity test. You can help her learn that by listening to her, asking her questions, and helping her know how she feels and what she wants, and then helping her get it.

For instance, if you had a frank discussion with her about the cooked foods, you might ask her what it is she likes about them so much. Really be open to exploring her experiences with her, about the foods she eats, cooked and raw. Her answers may be a surprise and may open ways to prepare raw foods more to her liking. I suspect that you are raw because you feel better eating that way? If so, that would be a perfect thing to discuss with her. And if she does NOT feel better eating raw, so what? I mean, with her young healthy body a few cooked meals may not be so terrible. If she doesn't feel the difference, what possible motivation can there be for her to stay raw?

By the way, there are lots of great naturopaths who believe some cooked is a good thing. So for all we know, she may be leading your family into more healthful eating.

though many people see dehydrated food as less-than-ideal, if getting a dehydrator and making some dehydrated meals makes raw food more exciting, creative, and attractive to your daughter, this might be something to consider for the time being. its better than cooked. you could make some dehydrated versions of some of the cooked foods she likes; wont taste exactly the same, but might add the variety she needs. also, if she is after carbs and beans, what about sprouting some grains and legumes (wheat, buckwheat, lentils, mung beans, chickpeas, etc). it sounds like she might just enjoy a little more variety in her diet? and having some things similar to foods non-raw people eat... ??

my mom heavily controlled what I ate when I was little. My sister and I were forced to eat meats even though she did not (she couldn't digest it and neither could we, but she felt like we needed to have meats or it would be bad because we were growing). I have developed horrible eating disorders. I don't know if it is related.

One thing I can say about my situation is that my mom never told me WHY I couldn't do the things I couldn't do. She just basically said don't do it it's bad. I never learned about nutrition, or anything else about the things I really wasn't "supposed" to do. I just knew I wasn't supposed to do it.... so tempting... feels so good to be "bad." It's exhillerating. like a high.

I am not saying u are the same way with your kid or not. I honestly have no idea, nor is it my place to judge. I will say from personal experience that the "don't do this because i say so" mentality messes u up.

what makes her want to eat those kinds of foods anyway? doesn't it make her feel gross or sluggish?

Hello, I relate to your situation as well. My daughter is four now. I find the easiest way to deal with it, is by making food a very casual thing. I try not to push anything on her too hard (accept one green smoothie in the morning) If she's hungry, she knows where the food is and she'll grab whatever she feels like. (all raw) When we go out to friends houses and parties, I let go of the leash and let her do what she wants. Almost always she comes home with a tummy ache and we'll talk about why that happens. I find she wants to indulge less and less after learning from her mistakes. I hope everything works out with your beautiful family!
blessings

I've hesitated to chime in on this thread because (1. I'm not 100% raw, and (2. I have no children of my own. But I think its such an interesting thread that has implications we can all learn from.

There is right now some carnivorous family trying to stare down the willful, rebellious glare of a pre-adolescent who refuses to eat meat anymore. This, from a psychological point of view, is no different from what you guys are encountering.

Children are natural born explorers who are equipped, body and mind, for "tasting" the big, wide world of options, alternatives and foreign adventures. In my opinion, this should be curtailed as little as possible, and should rather be encouraged.

Children should no more be forced-fed a diet any more than a religion, and especially if the diet IS a religion. Enantiodromia, or a turning to the opposite way, is inevitable because we are hard-wired for individuation (finding our unique, individual way in the world) and the first big step in this process is psychological and ideological separation from the parents.

"The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom", as Nietzsche put it, and the only reliable way to assume a healthy, optimal diet is to experience the ill-effects of a less than optimal one. Children, especially spirited ones (and i assume that most of you want spirited children) need to find what is best on their own as much as possible. Besides, childrens' bodies are enviably swarming with healthy enzymes and the effects of "cooked" are much less taxing on their bodies (unless they are very ill) than on us "ole folks".

So, as parents, the best one can do is provide lots of fresh fruits and vegetables; avoid allopathic doctors, antibiotics and immunizations, pray a lot and let the kids roam. With lots of room, more often than not, they come back on their own. Or at least that's been my observation.


khale

What Thomas said!! (what Dave Mason said)

Life Is Good!

alive!


ps. It really hurt when my teenage (14 yr old) son decided to stop being vegan after having been for several years, but I supported him in his decision. He came back around after a couple of years of "being like the other kids" without any comments or pressure from me, whatsoever. By the way - He eats healthier than I do!

hey there heather i send you a private message yesterday i hope you got it!!
goodl uck
love earth angel
xoxoxoxoxoxo

Heather i feel so sorry. So sorry for you and your pain.. but isn't that how we were to our parents?

She knows what is right and wrong, let her choose for herself..

Just some things that come to mind:

- One problem is most people seek a raw food diet after suffering with health problems on a SAD diet. Children may not have that experience, or may not have enough perspective to fully recognize the importance of living healthily.

- I was very self destructive as a teen - smoking, heavy drinking, lots of drugs - I feel like my mother tried to punish me instead of educate me. If she made more of an effort to explain exactly what smoking was doing to my lungs, and blood vessels, and what cancer actually was, I may have been more open to listening.

- I only quit smoking after experiencing breathing problems (and realized I wasn't invincible).

- I didn't start exploring raw foods until I had a melanoma removed from my arm and got totally freaked out.

- I think it would help greatly to educate children about things like basic chemistry, cell biology, and physiology, so that they can visualize how we truly are what we eat. After taking some genetics and molecular bio courses in college I was profoundly transformed with regards to how I thought about diet and nutrition.

I wonder if the people on this thread that suggest to let children choose their diet had a six year old who chose to eat mac and cheese and pizza and candy all the time would feel the same way. I do let my children have these things very moderately but my six year old wants the freedom to eat it all the time. I know if given the freedom to she would.

My wishes and tastes wern't catered to, or respected as a child; it was meat for dinner every night. I used to eat a small piece of meat and feed the rest to the dog under the table. I am now a vegetarian. We had lots of fruit and salads and cakes too.I think overall our diet was very healthy compared to the junk kids eat today.

packed for fun and juno

my parents were strict with me and I threw out their lunch meals and ate p& j that my friends gave me. I wanted sugar cereals and would have mom sneak them to me.

the more my dad tried to force health food down me the more I rebeled, I didn't want it and it ruined our relationship.

I was not deaf though, eventually as an adult I became a raw foodist, so you see, his words did teach me.

I agree that at some point, when your child really grasps the concequences that come of their choices, they should be in charge of their own diet. But they need to make good choices or they aren't ready to be given that responsibility yet. It is the same for everything they do, not just diet. Driving is an example that comes to mind. As a parent it is important to draw from the choices your parents made and throw out what was bad and keep what worked. The true outcome of your parental choices don't show for many years. I was brought up with total freedom to do, eat and go anywhere, anytime. I ended up with even less of a healthy diet than you did coconutcream. In the long run your Dad did a good job. His methods may have been misguided but the outcome was perfect. I feel like I can balance somewhere in between. Guide and teach my children how to eat healthy and teach them what to throw out, even if every other kid around them is eating an incredible amount of junk. I am rearing three children in the UNHEALTHIEST STATE IN THE COUNTRY. And one of my children has many food sensitivities and before we went raw had a stomach ache everyday. I feel I have to set bounderies. I don't see a choice if I want to be a responsible parent. I also have a two year old and I have the oppertunity to start him out on a much healthier path. That will come easier if we just stay away from junk as a family. We talk a lot about the many reasons we eat raw. We always note how cooked makes us feel and inevitably the one who wants it most is the sickest.

I have really thought a lot about what you guys have written. Even though it wasn't my thread it hit close to home for me. My husband and I feel like we are doing ok so far. We expected this would be a long and challenging adjustment for our family and it seems to be heading in the right direction so far. I really appreciate all the thoughts every one gave me to think about. You are all generous with your advise and support. Thanks.

Just a couple of things that went through my head as I read this thread and reflected on the little and sometimes big struggles I'm going through at times with my eldest about eating raw.

We live in a society where almost everything revolves around money.
We have all these really bad convenience foods because someones wants to earn money and doesn't care if they're hurting peoples health and us poor parents have a hard job trying to teach our children to make healthy food choices and ignore the crappy food which is so addictive that is trying to lure them from every corner.

I don't think it's possible to let children, especially young ones, make their own food choices out of the food that's available to them these days. And the problem with occasionally letting them have the not so healthy foods is that they want more of them.

Then again it seems like some children, both small and big, use food as a rebellion tool against their parents.

It's a terrible shame that food has come to represent so many things that have nothing to do with just feeding ourselves anymore to the extent that people now suffer from eating disorders. I read an interesting article called Are we all Emotional Eaters written by Nora Lenz on www.rawschool.com. I've copied a bit below which seemed relevant to me.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For a baby separated from his mother, crying is an expression of the terrible emotions being felt, and it also becomes a way to get what he wants most: the closeness of his mother. The first thing that is typically assumed when a baby cries is that he is hungry, so crying brings the reward of food as well. Thus, the disconnect between mothers and babies begins the confusion surrounding emotions and eating, and lays the foundation for other unnatural behavior patterns on the part of both mother and baby. These patterns lead to still other behaviors which shape harmful life-long habits, including a tendency to use food as a surrogate to fulfill unrelated unmet needs.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, these are just some thoughts. I haven't found the perfect solution to raising my children raw amongst all these cooked temptations. But I'm going to keep on trying because I believe it's important. And the only tools I can think of right now to do so are education, a good example and trying to make it fun.
And when all these fail, a sense of humor and reminding myself of my own diet when I was 16 when my eldest has eaten crisps again, which was a lot worse.


Francis

Thanks a lot Frannie. A lot of thought has to go into rearing children from the moment they are born. It is the biggest challenge of our lives, IMO.

Hey pakd4fun, thank you as well. You must have been writing your post as I was writing mine



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2007 08:25PM by Frannie.

Hell, I don't have kids, but if I did, I would raise them as vegans who ate predominately fresh whole foods. that way they would have some principals and dietary habits in place, but it wouldn't be impossible or harmful for them to eat certain cooked foods if an akward social setting presented itself,or just for well, fun and experimentation. So with this leeway, if they decided to sway too far out on the spectrum, they would feel the consequences physically, but maybe not to the extent that they felt they were punished or restrained to a lifestyle they did not choose

but what do i know, i'm pratically a kid myself. providing the best example along with the allowance idea about her making her own choices is TOO COOL