Hi Khale,

I was totally interested to read your thoughts and observations. The discussion begs the definition of Freedom. I bet everybody has a unique vision of Freedom. Mine includes Peace. I believe compassion towards all living things is an essential ingredient of internal and worldly Peace. However, I acknowlege that I have trouble exercising compassion, even for members of my own family, daily.

I think that in reality global fiscal equality and ecological health would require industrial western society to forego personal computers, malls, cars and lipstick (whether is be $7 or $35). I have never travelled to a developing nation, but when I read statistics of how the majority of the people in the world live- in fear, in cramped quarters, with no electricity, running water or food...I get the feeling that not very many people are entitled to exchange their energy for money.

I guess I disagree that "money is nothing more or less than energy". An hour of my energy working does not yield me even the same wage as an hour of my husband's energy. The energy required to walk two miles to the well for water does not yeild the same amount of money as the energy it takes for a state sanctionned soldier to walk two miles. Money has come to represent a set of values and in my opinion, supports a system of domination.

OK I omitted the conclusion of your sentiment : "...and we should all expect a fair exchange". This is the crux. So I wonder, who is in control of the money to distribute? And upon what criteria is distribution determined? "Fair exchange" is a term left wide open to interpretation. Even within the raw vegan community I bet we are divided on this point. It seems to me contemporary central governing forces (including the corporate system) remain challenged to create an economically equitable and peaceful society. Probably because it doesn't serve the interests of the elite in charge.

You want everyone to have a fair exchange of their energy, which sounds like you want economic equality for people. On the other hand you write that you are opposed to a national health care system. I read this as a conflict. Can you help me understand what you're thinking?

as someone who has been in the raw scene a while before it exploded in about the year 2000 into the Hollywood, faddish, hip way to eat for beauty and and glow, i miss the old school. i do think the commercialization of raw food has leached some of, if not a lot of, it's hippy-vibe of love and peace which is what essentially what made me whole. it wasn't the doctors preaching the value of an enzyme rich diet, or the plethora of fruits and vegetables i ate or the juice fasts and cleansing regimines i did or even the wheatgrass that brought me harmony. it was the love i received from my fellow raw foodies on the same path who helped me from the place of stuckness i was in to a place that was lighter. when we detox there is so much that needs to be cleansed from our energy fields, emotionally, physically and spiritually. without the community of brothers and sisters who gently loved me through my mess i would have never gotten out through the other side. my life was filed with talking to some of the most highly known raw food teachers and pioneers who today charge insane amounts of $$ just to make a buck. but they weren't starving before, and the exorbitant fees and proces they charge hardly seem justified in light of their missions earlier. before we were a community of people brought together with our common message of raising our vibration to create more harmony and love among eachother. not harmony through raw food to make obese kids get lean, or everybody eat raw food for the planet, or because you'll live longer and look hot. it was raw food detoxifying for mental spiritual and emotional health because peace on the planet depends on peace in our homes and in the comunity and when you have detoxified your mental thinking and eat raw, you are and have more peace which spills out like a light from you.
i am dissapointed in the money maddness around living-foods when it means that so many of the beautiful principals of raw get lost. to me raw eating isn't a diet or a way of life. being a raw foodist is a stepping stone to greater health and love and love is what's missing in people's mad grab for "look at me and the great cookbook i wrote!" "look at me and take my 250.00 food prep class" "look at me and pay me for my raw food "secrets" ( like there are any secrets to eating raw and healthy..?) the list goes on.
so yeah, i am missing the old days when you'd get so excited to meet another raw foodist and had a connection that was from the heart because of all the deep inner work you both did to get there and stay there and recognized in each other.
raw food is not about the raw diet to me. its about the detoxification process. and i think the reason so many people struggle with their food commitments is because the spiritual foundation is missing. taken as just another diet, raw health principals are hard to stick with. but creating room for your consciousnes to expand while you take in more light bearing foods and drinks is the key to sustaining and maintaing your food choices. i don't think many people want to hear or see that...

i am all for charging money and believe in supply and demand, but the way things are headed not only will we be having a harder time exciting people about raw if information and foods is priced out of reach or in the reach of a select few, but through our economic insanity of "trying to cash in on the market" and focusing our thoughts and energies on how to expand our cash flow, we will also be alienating ourselves away from one of raw and living foods greater gifts of bringing loving kindness and emotional and spiritual healing to each other.


my opinions... ;-)

peace
love
courage
i breathe in
i breathe out
Bikini

anaken Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> the world is VERY mediated, it can make lots of
> stuff look good or bad.
>
> anyone not able to look past their value judgment
> of celebrities, gurus, etc...is in some state of
> suffering.

Hmmm... I'm suffering because I am repulsed by Ann Coulter's hate? I couldn't imagine a HEALTHIER reaction to it.

morrisson66 wrote:
------------------
<initially I had the same response... however I took it as admiration of a woman hwho took a belief system and created a life around it and a system of wealth. I don't agree with Ann Coulter's methodology or her abject conservatism in the face of idiocy, but I do choose to look things a little differently and choose not to discredit her message based upon who CC admires.>

Taken to the extreme, someone could admire Adolf Hitler (another person filled with hate) for being a powerful and captivating public speaker, who "took a belief system and created a life around it and a system of wealth"/power. And that would be a sick/twisted admiration. The ends do not justify the means.

anna_elle wrote:
-----------------

<I don't think it's really fair to malign Coconutcream-or anyone else for that matter- because of what she beleives or who she admires.>

Perhaps you're more enlightened than me, but I have to draw the line of compassion/understanding somewhere, and admiration for people who use violent language/hate speech is where I draw the line. As mentioned above, it is very close IMO to someone admiring a "hate" figure (Hitler, etc.) for some skill they have. It may be a fact that that person has that skill but admiring them for it is repulsive to me.

Also, CC wrote so glibly and fawningly of Coulter in that entry quoted above that I honestly have to wonder whether she even knows who Ann Coulter is. Perhaps therein lies the explanation?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/24/2007 05:23PM by learningtofly.

I just went to Suvine's site and read a little 'About Me' and have to say I liked it very much.

The site is beautiful and I think her story is very enlightening and inspirational.

"The good old days, it is not like they used to be!"

Common saying of old fogeys.

I know who Ann Coulter is, don't be silly, she is a "big bad republican". I admire her as a woman, who is educated, a lawyer, published, famous and very opinionated. I admire that.

anna_elle wrote:

You want everyone to have a fair exchange of their energy, which sounds like you want economic equality for people. On the other hand you write that you are opposed to a national health care system. I read this as a conflict. Can you help me understand what you're thinking?


Ah, yet another "truth" stolen by the two thieves of contradiction" haha!

People are not, by and large, given a fair exchange for their energies - this is an ideal. But as part of that package comes the recognition that not all people are motivated by wealth, fame and/or privilege and so for them, a fair exchange of energy is not wealth, but enough.

The simple fact is that the largest portion of wealth in the U.S. is used to purchase bullshit. If you don't want the bullshit then you are not poor if you don't have it. Poverty is a standard raised by the rich. If I don't acknowledge the standard as valid then the appellation of "poor" is meaningless. I'm not talking about starvation and homelessness. These are dire realities that are created at the crux of what I am talking about. People will hold on to their shiny toys rather than feed a starving man/woman/child. It's as simple as that. We make it more complicated because it serves our greed, selfishness and complacency to keep it complicated, but its really very simple.

bikini: I love your post.


khale

This is right up my alley.

I could go into this for hours, if anybody wants to email me, it's too long a discussion for a raw food board.





Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/25/2007 01:10AM by coconutcream.

old fogeys have alot to say that is important ..not just cliche *sayings*

theres alot to be said about the good ol' days.

those that forget the past ... tend to repeat it

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

> I know who Ann Coulter is, don't be silly, she is
> a "big bad republican". I admire her as a woman,
> who is educated, a lawyer, published, famous and
> very opinionated. I admire that.

What's in (or not in) her heart is far more important than the letters after her name or the size of her bank account.

why is it a crime to want to make money?

It isn't a crime to want to make money Suvine.

In formal training in the Western Mysteries the first thing the teachers will have you do is determine what you want to be and do. 9 out of 10 people want to make money. But establishing money as a goal is a lot like establishing health as a goal; neither are very effective in the long run as goals per se because they are both energy values rather than substantial ones. What do you want to make money for? the "for" is your goal and money only the energy that helps carry you there. It is quite true that money in and of itself does not make people either happy or fulfilled, though god knows people are still trying to make it so.

Again, money is an energy equivalent. It is neither good nor bad; it's what you do with it that matters. I was reading up on the hermetic medicine of Paracelsus last night and was amused to read this quote by him which I'll paraphrase, "The problem with some physicians is that they care more for the money they charge than they do for the patient". Old story. Money only becomes a problem when it becomes the ultimate value and other people are sacrificed for it.

So, good Suvine, you know what you want to do, you want to make money. You are way ahead of the game merely by knowing that, as many, many people have no idea what they want to do. The question to ask yourself next is, "what do I want to make money for?"

khale

Right Khale. One of the funniest things I ever heard was, " Money is empty and meaningless" only we put on any meaning. It's empty and meaningless. What does money mean to you?

My first memory of money was when my parens gave me ten dollars, from grandparents for my birthday. I ran to the store and I bought ten dollars worth of stickers. My dad was so disapointed in me. It was the first time I owned anything, and I spent it? He yelled at me. I was so depressed. I was unloveable, I thought. The next day, I was so depressed, I passed out all the stickers on the school bus the next day. There , that day, began my unhealthy relationship to money. For years, I spent money on people trying to fix that with my dad, and the more I spent, the less loved I felt.

We all have issues and "stories" about money, AND money turns out very different to each of us.

I dealt with that issue a while ago, well, I saw my life and relationship to it, and now money is new to me. It is altogether a new relationship.

Money is not evl or makes us do bad things, we only do.
We either damn our money or glory in it , depending on what we had to do to get it.

I work hard for my money, the right way, I hurt noone, and use my brain. I really earn it and it makes me proud I have friends that are lawyers who earn their money by lies and cheating, and the money they make well, damns them, and they are unhappy. The secret is how do you want to earn your money?

Always follow your principles and what is right and wrong to you, wll guide you...and then money can be the most happiest reward.

People say money isn't everything, but it is when you don't have any..you would not survive for long without it. It's the honest symbol of exchange between people. It's good, and very positive.

When I see a Yacht or a manicuredmansions, expensive cars, all I see is good. I see the highest virtues. I see hard work and using brains. I see pride.

Now one may cheat/lie/hurt to get it, but then it is never apreciated that way, only in the eyes of others, and that is called second handedness..that is a real curse...

but the work it takes to acquire wealth, if you did it and accomplished wealth the right way, you earning it, you will be so proud of it, and good money wikll bring more money.


PS I do not admire Hitler, because he was powerful, that is silly, Everyone knows he had no power, he worked for the mob, the masses, the people. It is very hard to control people when you do what you want. It was the people who had the power. Dictators only give the people want they want. When Hitler wanted to actually say anything, noone listened or trusted his motives. The greater good, The perfect germany, it all takes away from individual rights.

We were the first country to protect man from other men, and the greatest industry/ inventions ever, were done here. But now people are talking about , " Your brother and sister" " the greater good" Public welfare" it all starts out with nice intentions but you will end up with death camps and bread lines that way.

Ever hear of randolph Hearst, he worked for the mob too, and it was the people who ruled him, not the other way around. he was very unhappy man. he had no power.

Real power, is living for yourself, and being free too.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/25/2007 03:01PM by coconutcream.

Khale, what do I want to make money for?

I want to be rich because it is a desire I want to attain, and life is about attaining one's desire, and the freedom to do so. I want to earn it only by my brains. I do not want to collaborate or borrow or seek help outside of myself. I have friends who want rich boyfriends, but I say become rich yourself first. You can't get financial success through osmosis...or copying, looting, stealing, leeching, you need to make it of yourself the honest way..

using your mind.

Anna elle, so would you give up everything you owned in the bank, to those people in those starving countries? you would send what money you have?

Or are you suggesting we all be forced to give our money away to help them..

At whose expense ?


I can see you are willing to help those people with your own money right?
but for you to tell me
what MY DUTY is to the poor...
that is not for you ( or the government) to decide for me

I am not a slave, to any beggar I see on the street. Even in my thoughts.

You understand?

I am talking of individual rights and individual freedom.

Money and free health care does not grow on trees, You have to pay men to do those things, and at whose expense are we to care for our brothers, who is paying for it?

To say the business man should pay, is punishing him for making money ( and giving people jobs, bringing food on tables). And it won't last long, business, at a loss, you get it? what happens if that businessman is you?

We will no longer have power as people, but the state will. We know what happens, look back in history to totalitarian states, all working for "the good of all"..





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/25/2007 03:33PM by coconutcream.

Learning to Fly

you said "What is in your heart is more important than money.."

TO WHOM?

(to you? Oh that is great.)

but what is in your heart, has no value to me, or does it benefit mankind, in any way, you understand.

It is what you Do with it, what work you produce that will be of value on this planet.

Slavery to others you will resent

That is like me being happy, So what? Who cares? That has no value to anyone. It is not even really lasting. It's a abstraction... I have to DO something with it.

If you still believe what is in your heart is more important than money,
what happens when you have none, what do you eat with, how do you have social relations, with no money.

Or do you choose to barter things? You just don't like money? Do you say, I will give you some love in exchange for organic oranges? Is that more important to others in a grocery store?





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/25/2007 03:52PM by coconutcream.

Coconutcream, I would guess that you were stifled at an early age where your having things, your sensual (taste, touch, smell) experience of things was curtailed and you were frustrated. Now you want to HAVE things in abundance.


You're getting closer to knowing your deep wounds because the deepest wounds are the ones we don't remember. They reside in our subconcious, but they are evidenced by our expressions, however subtle.


We all have them, they're okay, but they are only absolute truths to ourselves.


Your views are true for you but don't fool yourself into believing they are absolute or universal truths. At best they are fractions of truths. Those twin evils - ignorance and arrogance lead us into believing such things about the world.


You're working hard on yourself and I admire you very much for that, as I do anyone who works hard on themselves......


.....Yes, I even admire the ugly, poor and stupid who work on themselves, no more, no less than the beautiful, wealthy and brilliant.

aqueduct

First of all, saying "there are no absolutes" IS AN ABSOLUTE!

Yes there are absolutes, in each of us, moral codes and right and wrong etc, and we do have them.

If we choose "NOT" to have absolutes , as an absolute, we just do whatever we want, there is no right and wrong within us, we are middle of the road, average, whim person, whom neither good nor bad happens to. AVERAGE...not who I want to be.

Since you went there. I was stifled as a child, by the wrong philosophy.
My dad is a business lawyer with his own business, firm, charges people 300 a half hour on the phone, he is very valuable.. and my mom masters degree.

Now, as a child. I felt that maybe I should be given all this free money, like my classmates. I thought it was my right. We did not have a good relationship.

I found, later, that this independence he had, his vision, I mean , he is a genius, published author, he studied indians, peace corps, travels the world, climbs highst mountains, was anthropologist, business lawyer, has magazine, etc noone ever helped him, with money or support. He did it all himself. He rejects all help. He sacrifices for noone.

So here I was a little girl, dependant on my own mind, my own talent to get me rich. I didn't like it. I thought I should be rich and I should be given free everything because he is my daddy .My mind wasted away in anger.

My life story then was terrible. Oh, the escapes from reality I attempted! The failed relationships, when I thought men were supposed to serve me, or give me unearned love!

fortunately I am my father's daughter, it didn't last long, I got "IT" I realized, all the success I want, I can only GET by making it myself! earning things, by your own mind..its the real key..I started to work ...really work.

There is nothing more pleasurable.

People resent charity, they do... and when you give, they just want more and become nasty. You want to help, then teach others, by example, to be independant.

My mom still sends money to South America and it has been disastrous. My mom cries at all the mean things they call her when she won't send them more and who does she think she is? etc..and you know what, there are people there, who GET IT and they make their own business selling cookies and become so good they make factories so wealth can be attained even in those countries...but not by placating the mob, or giving handouts.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/25/2007 04:48PM by coconutcream.

Okay, maybe there is ONE absolute.

But I think you know what I mean.


Are you being passive-aggressive by calling me aqueduct or are you just not good with words?


You also said that life is about fulfulling our desires, but that's not a very elevated perspective.

sorry, aquedecoco? Water of the coconut? Sorry!

hahaha

I love coconut water.

Life is not about fulfilling one's desires?

What is better?

I can't imagine.

Life to me is attainment and my happiness as the highest goal.

Did you read anything else I wrote?





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/25/2007 04:53PM by coconutcream.

Money. Money?

My experience that to buy the ingredients to make a raw apple pie, for example, will cost about $15.00. The time that I take to make it is about one hour. Now, let's say a local Co-Op wants to buy it. Let's say my time is worth $10.00/hr (that's a cheap hourly rate).

Ok. How much do I have invested in it? $25.00. That's the price for a raw apple pie. Now, all I have to do, is make the 20 minute walk down to the Co-Op to deliver it. But what if you don't live near me? Well, now I have to ship it to chilled and overnight. That's about $25.00. Now you've paid $50.00 for a raw apple pie that will provide you with 8 large slices.

Have I ever done this? No.

Let's be realistic, folks, if we want to have what we want to eat, we'll need to pay for it.

Money is not the "root of all evil"; rather what we do or don't do with it may be.

Simply because we're raw, savin' the earth, the animals, the ozone, the this or that, doesn't not mean that we must also take a oath of poverty, hate money, hate capitalism, etc.

Communisim has not worked -hey, easy there! It's been given ample time.

Socialized health care has not worked for the extremely ill, for if it did, those of local and distant countries would not fly in daily to get their health care needs met here.

Russia. My maternal family is Russian. No one on this board can sell me on the idea that life in Russia is good; that the pay scale is good; that the health care is good, etc. If you believe this, I invite you to move there for one full year.

My paternal family is from Mexico. I've lived in Mexico numerous times. Socialized medicine does not work their either. The wealthy, you know, the ones who get up early, work late, and hire those that do the same, pay cash to go to a US type hospital. The middle class has a decent hospital, but the poor have a poor hospital. You also find the same class of physician in each hopital: wealthy get excellent physicians, the middle class get mediocre, and the poor get those physicians trying to climb their way up the health care ladder.

Oh, sorry. I didn't know I'd stepped on top of my soap-box; before I get down, I'll write it again, money is not "the root of all evil"; rather what we do or don't do with it is.

Thanks,

Arilraw

Coconutcream I read a little of your blog several months ago and was so impressed with the work you did on yourself (I'm doing the same).

I agree that people do not respond well to hand-outs. I don't see poor people as victims, but neither do I see wealth as virtuous and I guess that's all I was trying to say.

coconutcream Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> you said "What is in your heart is more important
> than money.."
>
> TO WHOM?
>
> (to you? Oh that is great.)

To the universe.

> but what is in your heart, has no value to me, or
> does it benefit mankind, in any way, you
> understand.

That is an ego-based statement. You believe that we are all separate. I believe that we are all connected, and that what is in the heart of any one of the billions of people on the planet matters to all.

Have you ever seen the movie "Pay it Forward?" I highly recommend it as an example of what is possible "outside the box" of ego-centric culture.

> That is like me being happy, So what? Who cares?
> That has no value to anyone. It is not even really
> lasting. It's a abstraction... I have to DO
> something with it.

I care if you're happy. I want everyone to be happy.

> If you still believe what is in your heart is more
> important than money,
> what happens when you have none, what do you eat
> with, how do you have social relations, with no
> money.

I said that what is in her heart is more important than money. I didn't say that money isn't important.

> Or do you choose to barter things? You just don't
> like money? Do you say, I will give you some love
> in exchange for organic oranges? Is that more
> important to others in a grocery store?

No, I don't do any of that. I work for and use money because if one wants pieces of Nature, our so-called civilization dictates that it must be purchased with money. However for the record, Nature wants us to have these things for free.

I also don't believe that love is a commodity to be used for bartering purposes.



There is nothing wrong with making money, as long as one does not WORSHIP money, or seek it in greed, or want it for ostentatious displays of wealth/social status in order to make one feel better about oneself (usually due to feelings of insecurity).

Then again, if one does pursue money for those reasons, then that is one's choice and one's journey, and we are all on a journey in order to learn lessons.

Aril : you are awesome, you really are, it is so rare to see someone speak so wisely..

About Russia, I would love to interview you, I have heard the horrors of it. I read WE THE LIVING, an account of what life was like with no individual rights. To sneak to eat a baked potato. To have scary men burst in your house with no warning and kill anyone based on rumors. the thieves, the rules. If you were ex bourgeios, they made you pay you more for your neighborhood. no choice, sometimes there was only soap in the bread lines..you had to go to school or work to get rations cards, you had to get permission to sleep over a friends, and then register in her neighborhood. You had to study in school for the collective, never because you were interested in anything.

Learning to fly:, we ARE separate individuals. I agree with what you say about money, but then again, it's the looters who usually have such negative views of money. So look within yourself, what is your story about money? what are your first memories of money? What comes to mind? Maybe you will find you picked up some wrong ideas as a kid. that is was bad. That rich people steal from the poor. That money causes people to become corrupt, that it drives people to do bad things or something..

ALL it is is an exchange for talent and/or human work. Is human work that bad?

I mean, I am a fruitarian, I see alot of necessary evils. There is a thin line, I know, but you know what, it's just a mirror of you.

It's those ideas that hurt your relationship to it..your relationship to money.

Money is nothing, all it is, is what you say it is.

So people and money, what good is there about making money? Imagine you, writing a novel, or creating something so new for mankind..all of our greatest inventions...real valuable stuff..what is wrong with getting paid?

/

agua de coco:

I believe wealth is a virtue in itself.

That is what makes me uniquely special. I know most people don't think that. They think that is evil. I can give you many reasons I think wealth is a high form of virtue, a hig value. . If you want to email me.





Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/25/2007 06:48PM by coconutcream.

agua de coco

We live in a cooked food world, we do, and what is valuable to someone cooked is bad to us. BUT IT IS , nevertheless, VALUABLE to someone. Someone will pay and someone will earn, that is our right. right? There is a thing called a market. And people will pay for what they want.


"there outta be a law for that" saying is a real crisis to our freedom. Says who? Who makes it up..for everybody?


People work, to earn things. With Free will of everyone involved..

I am PRO MAN. I am. Anti-collective

Someone famous said, there is no such thing as mankind, only man.

I am Libertarian, by the way, I am not a Republican.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/25/2007 07:07PM by coconutcream.

coconutcream Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So look within yourself,
> what is your story about money? what are your
> first memories of money? What comes to mind? Maybe
> you will find you picked up some wrong ideas as a
> kid. that is was bad. That rich people steal from
> the poor. That money causes people to become
> corrupt, that it drives people to do bad things or
> something..

First of all, I didn't invite you into my emotional space. Secondly, your response is full of projections. If I don't worship money (am not attached to it), does that mean that I have a negative view of it? If I'm not in love with someone, does that mean that I dislike them?

You seem to believe that there are only two possibilities in regards to one's view of money: positive and negative. There is also NEUTRAL. To quote khale above, "Money is an energy equivalent. It is neither good nor bad; it's what you do with it that matters."

> I believe wealth is a virtue in itself.

Ascribing some inherent "goodness" to money/wealth is as fantasied as ascribing some inherent "badness" to it.

I don't mind that people are making money. They can't do that without providing value, at least to some people, even if I don't find their offerings of interest.

The raw gurus are at least as big hucksters as any others. Most of them set off my sh*t-meter big time. I don't think they're leeches, just opportunists.

I do best when I focus on myself, on what I want and what's best for me in the moment, rather than trying to evaluate if what others are doing is good, bad, or whatever.

here we are 'fighting over money' and yet there isn't even any circulating LOL

what does THAT say

_____________________



it could be your thoughts...

[www.writerwriterwriter.com]
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short and sweet....and DEEP

_____________________________________________________ ...and FREE

I think it says that we like to exercise our minds with a good debate

Nice debate indeed!