coco,

I followed the first link, and read through some of it. Basically it said mammals menstruate, which is reabsorb the uterine lining, but there is no external bleeding (hemorraging) like there is in humans. One article said there was covert (hidden) bleeding.

From what I heard from other raw folk, when bleeding stops and ovulations stops, this is a sign of ill health in women. However, if bleeding stops and ovulations continues and the woman is fertile, this is a sign of excellent health.

"why is it always a man telling us our menses is unnatural? do they still fear a woman's ability to create life so much?"

no, not menses, the bleeding.

[www.waldorfhomeschoolers.com]

Should Women Menstruate? - Coco M. Shelton

Hygienic Review
Vol. IV May, 1943 No. 9
Should Women Menstruate?
by Coco M. Shelton

What is called by the editor of She "a challenge to science" appears in the January issue of that magazine in the form of an article by Tora Selander Nelson, under the title: "Is Woman's Cycle Necessary?" She's editor assures us that "There is positive evidence to warrant the hope that the menses can be eventually eliminated". In a box the editor says: "The author spent many months of intensive study in exploring this subject and is well qualified to offer her fascinating hypothesis. .Information and advice was obtained from the Museum of Natural. History, the New York City Medical Center and the Academy of Medicine, but the views expressed are the author's own."

Let us first answer the question that forms the title of her article before turning to the article itself, which does not even discuss the question in its title. "Is Woman's Cycle Necessary?" To answer this question, it is first necessary that we understand what is meant by woman's cycle. This is the term applied to a whole complex series of phenomena included in the changes in the ovaries and womb during the maturation of an ovum, its expulsion from the ovary and, finally, if impregnation does not occur, its expulsion from the womb.

This cycle has two possible endings: (1) It may end in pregnancy, birth and lactation; or (2) it may end in the expulsion of the unimpregnated ovum and the casting off of the temporary "lining" of the womb. Obviously the first of these cycles may be interrupted by abortion (spontaneous or induced) or by miscarriage.

Mrs. Nelson does not discuss the necessity for this cycle of events in her article. The question is hardly discussible. It would be like discussing the necessity of the peach tree to put forth blossoms before it can produce peaches. The cycle is essential and can be avoided only by greatly impairing or completely wrecking the female reproductive system.

What, then, does Mrs. Nelson discuss? The reader will find the answer to this in the editor's statement that "there is positive evidence to warrant the hope that the menses can eventually be eliminated". She discusses the necessity for the customary loss of blood, or hemorrhage, that marks the end of a cycle that does not end in pregnancy.

Woman's complete ovulation cycle covers a period of twenty-eight days (there are cases that run longer and some that run less time than this) and, if pregnancy does not intervene, ends with the sloughing off of the temporary lining of the uterus and, commonly, with more or less loss of blood. What Mrs. Nelson wants to know, is this: is the loss of blood necessary.

She presumes to speak for her sex when she says: "all of us (women) have resented this ignominious interruption of our normal lives as a beastly injustice." "Nature", she says, "is cruel and stupid". For this nature has laid upon woman the entire "burden" of pregnancy and childbirth and has so arranged matters that "for some thirty years of our lives, all the goals we set for ourselves" are "divided".

She resents the fact that "nature" ignores woman's petty social, political, artistic and commercial schemes. These trivial artificialities loom larger in her mind than the fundamental processes of life and she resents the fact that child-bearing interferes with @#$%&-tail hour and theatre-going. This attitude toward the phenomena of life makes it impossible to understand these phenomena or to find a true solution for the problems presented by abnormal phenomena.

For years we have been saying in our lectures and writings that menstruation (Mrs. Nelson calls it, after the medical fashion, a "periodic function", though questioning its normally) is an abnormal phenomenon, that it belongs in the category of disease and can be remedied in all, or nearly all, cases.

Mrs. Nelson discovers, in her questioning of Science, that ovulation and menstruation are two separate processes and that while ovulation is essential to reproduction, menstruation is not. She says: "There are women who never menstruate, and yet bear children. Besides, the overwhelming majority of lower mammals, with reproductive organs astonishingly like our own, do not". But when she asks "science" what is the reason for this "function" of menstruation, she learns to her astonishment that, "strangely enough, science today does not profess to know".

Briefly reviewing the ripening and release of an ovum and the uterine changes necessary to the beginning of a possible pregnancy she says: "So far, then, the animal and the human processes, are entirely alike, but here the similarity ends. In the lower animals as soon as the climax of the cycle is over, the enlarged blood vessels slowly shrink to their normal size and the accumulated blood, not being needed by any lodging embryo, is redistributed in the general blood stream. In the human, to the contrary, the overfilled capillaries break under the strain and the blood drains into the womb, to appear, eventually, as the menstrual flow."

"Why this general mess, discomfort and often severe pain?" she asks. "What is accomplished through this regular and repeated wounding?" "Why, after Nature has perfected the mammalian reproductive system for hundreds of millions of years, with everything running smoothly up a constantly refined scale of evolution, does she start to complicate matters?"

She turns to her "authorities". Metchnikoff and Francis Marshall suggest that there is "something amiss," but they do not seem to know what. "Research scientists", when asked why women hemorrhage each month, "merely say that their knowledge is incomplete". She feels that the "scientists" who are practically all men (the remainder are all masculinoids) do not consider the matter of pressing importance because "they are never, in the midst of some exciting experiment, doubled up with an agonizing ache".

The question comes to us: If these men are not interested in women's problems, why don't women solve their own problems? Did Mrs. Nelson go to the men and does she resent their apparent lack of interest because she feels that women are incapable of solving their own problems? Shame upon these imitators of men! If they can drink like men, and smoke like men, and philander like men', and become welders and riveters like men, why ask men to solve their problems for them?

Mrs. Nelson makes another startling discovery. She says: "Take, for instance, the nature of the hemorrhage. With the one exception of childbirth, all kinds of bleeding, be it nasal, pulmonary or intestinal, are considered a symptom of disease". Why is the bleeding accompanying childbirth not also considered abnormal? Why does even Mrs. Nelson assume that this bleeding is normal? Does she find it in the lower mammals at birth?

She adds: "If to any such bleeding you add a rising temperature, an irregular pulse-beat, changes in blood pressure, pain, and a general lowering of-muscular tone, you certainly would have any patient worried. As for any physician calling the whole a 'natural' process, the chances are remote. "Nor do these recognized features of menstruation stand alone. There are physical changes as well. No woman needs to be told about the extra effort needed to remain up to par in her work at such times, or about her feelings of depression or elation. Her temperament, for a few days, becomes undeniably mercurial".

To these physical and nervous symptoms let us add the frequent headaches, pains in the back and legs, pimples on the face, constipation or diarrhea and peculiar body odor. She tells us that investigations of crime records in many countries show "the percentage of feminine crime is incomparably higher during the menstrual period; and as far as suicide is concerned, the evidence of serious mental disturbance is simply terrifying". We ourselves have noted, in dealing with insane patients, that all their symptoms of insanity are much worse during menstruation.

Mrs. Nelson makes out a good case for the idea that menstruation is an evidence of disease, but she does not draw the necessary inference there from. She is simply not willing to face the facts in the case and point to its true causes. She finds instead, that menstruation is simply the outgrowth of an evolutionary short-coming. We will come to this later.

In our book, "Menstruation - Its Cause and Cure (out of print) first published over ten years ago, parts of it published much earlier, we say:

Ovulation is a normal process and is not necessarily accompanied with any sanguineous flow -bloody flux- or "show of blood". It is quite true that there is usually a loss of blood during part of the period of ovulation, but it is also equally true that with almost all women in civilized society, the period is marked by other morbid symptoms. We have no more right to consider the loss of blood to be an essential part of the process of ovulation than we have to regard the accompanying pain to be so.* * * My studies and experiences have led me inevitably to the conclusion that the loss of blood is pathological and that it is in no sense a natural (normal) or necessary part of the physiological process of ovulation.

The fact was pointed out by Dr. Trail over seventy-five years ago that in practically all cases the loss of blood "is in almost exact inverse ratio to the constitutional tone and vigor." In Menstruation Its Cause and Cure, we say:

* * * in what are termed1" civilized countries, women oscillate between great extremes. In some there is no menstrual flux, in others it is very scanty and lasts but a few hours, or for a day or two, while in others it lasts seven or eight days, accompanied with much pain and discomfort, and the flow is so profuse as to be almost hemorrhagic. These marked variations in menstruation correspond in exact ratio with the varying degrees of health of different women, or In the same woman at different times. There does not exist a greater difference between the human female and the female among the lower animals in this matter, than exists between some women and other women.

Turning to the other side of the picture she says: "Those of us who go in for sports, exploration and other physically demanding activities, know, that the length of the period usually stands in direct proportion to our physical condition. If the latter is top-notch, as it is apt (likely) to be after systematic training, the menstrual time is shortened and the loss of blood reduced to a minimum. Every so often, under such conditions, the menses disappear altogether, and this disappearance invariably corresponds with our highest peak of health."

Here, Mrs. Nelson finds the key to the solution of her problems, but she rejects it. Ten years ago, we pointed out these facts, plus the further fact, that, as physical vigor increases the pain and other symptoms accompanying menstruation also lessen and finally disappear.

After briefly discussing a lot of hokum about thyroid deficiency increasing menstruation and thyroid sufficiency decreasing the flow (she fails to see these two conditions as part of the general health or lack of it) she comes to her hypothesis of the cause of menstruation.

She starts with the hypothesis that man is descended from an ape, and that the ape is descended from a quadruped. Instead of walking on all four of our feet, we stand and walk on our hind legs. While we have been in this unnatural position a long time, evolution has failed to adjust our internal organs to the upright position; they are still adjusted to the horizontal position of quadrupeds. This allows our organs to crowd down into the -pelvis and the small "extra" pressure thus put upon the blood vessels of the pelvis results in menstruation.

This is a hopeless picture. If menstruation is a disease we may hope to remedy it. If improved health lessens or abolishes it, we may even hope to interest a few women in improved health. But if it is due to an evolutionary mal-adjustment, the trouble can never be remedied. According to the apostles of transformism (miscalled evolution) man has been man and has undergone no change in his biological equipment for at least five-hundred thousand years, probably much longer. If evolutionary adjustments are so slow Mrs. Nelson will never live long enough to see her problem solved. She approaches the true solution, but she runs away from it.

In Menstruation-Its Cause and Cure we also considered the circulatory interference caused by sagging abdominal organs, which we estimated exist in well over ninety per cent of women, over fourteen years old. We say:

When we consider that in the average woman, due to lack of their normal support, the abdominal organs gravitate toward and rest upon the pelvic organs, and thus interfere with the return circulation from the pelvis, we easily understand why the hyperemia (excess of blood) becomes great enough to result in a leakage of blood and blood serum through the lax tissues of the uterus.

We did not attribute this sagging of organs to evolutional short-comings, but to a failure of the normal supports. We pointed out that only where there is unantagonized gravitation does ptosis occur and that the healthy organism effectually opposes gravitation. We attributed pelvic laxness and loss of tone to the same causes that produce 'laxness and loss of tone throughout the body to which are added, "weight from above-weight of a clogged colon in constipation, pressure from gas distention of the intestines, sagging of the abdominal organs due to faulty posture, muscular weakness and lack of exercise, pressure of belts, corsets, tight and heavy clothing, etc."

Here are causes that may be understood and removed and here are conditions that we can remedy. Ptosis may be both prevented and remedied. One cannot hope to prevent or remedy u normal condition that has resulted from the hypothetical slow evolution of man from a quadruped, no matter how faulty it may be.

Suffice it to say that our experiences have convinced us that the periodic blood-loss sustained by woman is due solely to a loss of integrity in her tissues (the local loss of integrity is merely part of the general loss of integrity) and not to any failure of adjustment. We deplore the too frequent use of the hypothesis of transformism to account for defects that are more easily accounted for by facts close at home. Evolutional failings (lack of adjustments) are remediable only by more ages of slow evolutionary process; failings due to factors over which we have control are remediable now.

She sees a way out. Or, did some manufacturer of endocrine products see it for her? She wants some of our endocrinologists to find a glandular product - "be it thyroid or pituitary- which, if given in an individually adjusted dose, would cause woman's menstrual process to stop short just before the breaking-point of her uterine capillaries."

This is a commercial program that ignores the harm that may result from the procedure. It is a voodoo program that seeks to control the forces of nature but does not seek to remove the cause of the abnormality. Mrs. Nelson spent too much time with the museum of "Natural" history, the New York City Medical Center and the Academy of Medicine.

She wants a substitute for health. She will be satisfied with a crutch rather than a correction. She does not desire improved health and increased vigor in women, She does not want a means of normalizing female function. She is a pitiable victim of current medical and commercial thinking.

We do not share her view that some substitute for good health and the things upon which this depends should be devised to suppress menstruation. Our modern trend is to seek substitutes for normal functions rather than for normalization of function. We prefer arch supports to normal arches, eye-glasses to normalization of visual function, dental plates to good teeth, abdominal supports to normal abdominal muscles, vaccines and serums to natural resistance, artificial vitamins to natural foods, insulin to a good pancreas, cathartics to normal bowel function, "twilight sleep and Caeserean section to the pleasures of normal childbirth. Our love of ersatz physiology and anatomy (substitutes for normal function and structure) grows out of our ready acceptance of and satisfaction with a low standard of health and our lazy compliance with low conditions. This is a threefold source of mischief-first, there is the neglect of those positive natural conditions upon which normal function depends; second, there is the disregard of the impairing influences that are primarily responsible for deterioration of function and structures; and third, there are the harmful effects of the substitutes, themselves.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/23/2007 12:26PM by fresh.

diamond dave, yes meat is a stimulant. Eating it kicks the adrenals. At least that is what I was taught.

Love:

-Just wanted to point out that MANY fruits ripen and become available for eating over the cooler months.....most notably oranges (I'm in Florida). Of course, in areas with freezing temperatures and snow for most of the winter....available food in general will be scarce.

-David Z. Mason

WWW.RawFoodFarm.com

David,
I had wondered about fruit and produce in the winter. I live in washington, and produce in general around here is very poor. You would think that cherries and apples would be excellent, but not aways, and of course seasonable available. Apples can store for awhile, so many whats on the shelf is last seasons? I am not sure.

I myself would like to grow persimmons and seabuckthorn. Seabuckthorn is very likely to grow as they grow in northern china, siberia, BC canada. They actually are supposed to get better with some frost. I wondered how the native population did before modern shipping. I have read that they stored crabapples for the winter, and apparently get sweeter after a bit of storage. But there is that period in early spring when there isn't much to eat. I think the first thing that comes available is miner's lettuce, and then salmonberries. Maybe this is how the local tribes got a bit of a fast, wanted or not!

Thank-you for all the posts. I sometimes worry about the protien and calcium intake. That is what people ask me when they discover I am not eating meat. I guess I need to be more informed about my new diet. I am trying to listen to my body needs as they come. I am thinking of printing the information about protien and calcium and just giveing it to the people who keep asking me about it. About having my perion I don't have a perion any longer because I have went through menepause. I still have a cycle though but not as drastic as when I had my period.

I agree pampam that it's important to be informed about a raw person's nutritional needs. I held on to the old RDA-type ideas for too long, not bothering to adapt my thinking to a raw diet and it held me back for a few months, I'm years away from settling into a really great diet for myself, but at least I've realized some major mistakes that made a big difference to how I felt.

LaVeronique had a great idea for handling challenging questions: tell people they can google it.

For some reason I am not so worried about particular nutrient needs, as long as I truely enjoy what I eat, its fresh and I feel satisfied. I used to really overthink that one. I does sort of take a leap of faith to try something new. Eating all fruit and vegetables sounded a bit out there for me for awhile. But thats because of being tangled up in other ideas about health and food, which I don't find interesting anymore.

breaaaaaaaaking freeee from the overanalysis paralysis !

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

All I know is that I've been 95-100% raw for about three weeks, and I've felt extremely run-down and weak. I generally run or bike every day for 1-2 hours, and I find that I can hardly get up a hill lately, and my muscle tone has definitely flabbed out. It's really bad. So either my protein is too low on this mostly fruit and vegetable diet, or I'm not getting enough of something or another (including calories), and it's zapped me. Being fit is very important to me.

I'm thinking of reincorporating a small amount of cooked whole grains most days, as a nice lean source of protein, zinc and iron. I can't seem to get these grains to sprout without fermenting, so I'll have to cook them. I had some oats at breakfast this morning, and I'm having some quinoa at dinner. I'll let you other protein-deficient athletes know how it goes...

olivia,

It's likely not protein deficiency.
The body is cleaning itself out - it's going to be weak and flabby.
have patience.
i thought phytates in grains blocked the absorption of zinc and iron, no?

johntravolta

ps. let's do lunch. you never call me anymore...

i only get around 20 grams of protein a day... but then i tend to eat fruit more than veggies..almost all my protein comes from fatty cashews and i rarely exceed 1,000 calories because i just can't eat that many fruits and veggies...


i have only been doing this for about 5 days... and i feel pretty darned good... but i am way off nutrition wise... i used to when i was a plain ol' vegetarian get plenty of B-12 (fortified soymilk)...and plenty of protein and plenty of other vitamins and minerals... but now i fall short every day...

when i was vegetarian i consumed around 1,600 calories a day.....

i went straight from vegetarian to raw vegan in one day..just boom..like that...

i would say i am 99.99% raw... i plan to treat myself to tofutti soy "ice cream" once every two weeks....so while that is vegan it is not raw....

i need to know how to get more calories without consuming more fatty nuts and how to get more protein too....

what kind of supplements do you use? i found on the web a vitamin B-12 patch that looks very interesting.... and it says it is more absorable than in pill form... and it claims to be appropriate for vegans..... but it is 24.95 per month essentially... one patch lasts a week....

anyway...i just need help all over the place having just gone raw with no books and no recipies and no anything.... i have books on my wish list at amazon.com.. i have a juicer already.... but it looks like i may need a dehydrator....from what i have seen of recipies....on the net...

thank you any and all for your help,
jamesgirl

Red meat ain't so great...
very acidic, ( which contributes to osteoperosis) full of hormones, and antibiotics, and growth stimulants, etc.

if you are desperate to experiment try raw wild caught fish, or raw egg yolk.
But if you've only been raw a short while, it may be difficult to tell
the subtle effects.

Once you've been raw for awhile a simple bowl of popcorn can make you feel
mucosy and clogged the next day.

>>It's likely not protein deficiency.
The body is cleaning itself out - it's going to be weak and flabby.
have patience. <<

Really? Please explain how a body cleaning itself out of toxins would cause it to become weak and lose muscle mass. Isn't it more likely that it's a simple protein deficiency -- that I'm not taking in enough protein to keep my body building the muscle that I require for my regular endurance workouts?

What is the physiology behind losing muscle mass as a result of detox, as opposed to insufficient nutrient intake?

olivianewtonjohn,

A couple of things. First, lets assume we have a person who has been all raw for a year or so. If that person is just maintaining their current muscle mass from day to day, they only need to replace the amino acids or proteins that they lost each day, which is about 7 grams that are lost via hair, shedding skin, proteins found in bodily fluids that may be lost, etc. For the most part, every cell in the body that die is 100% reclaimed, assuming the amino acids in those cells are still pristine (which for a person who is all raw for a year, they would be).

Lets say this same person is quite an athlete, and they build 1 pound of muscle a month. This person would need more protein than 7 grams. To that they would need an additional 15 grams a day to build the 1 pound of human muscle by the end of the month. So this is a total of 22 grams of protein a day.

A person eating 2000 calories of only fruits and vegetables is going to 25 grams of protein a day. So there is no need for any additional protein to build 1 pound of muscle a month.

A person who is going through a raw transition from cooked to raw is going to have some additional challenges. First, the body needs energy to detoxify itself. To do this, the body is going to make the person feel tired and weak, so they will be inclined to lie down and go to sleep. Which if you are feeling tired and weak, this is exactly what you should do.

Also, if a person was eating meat or high protein foods before, these foods are stimulants and cutting them out will be removing that stimulant. This alone could make a person feel tired and weak without the protein stimulation. The best this a person could do in this case is lie down to go to sleep until the fatigue passes.

A person who is transitioning has almost all the cells in their bodies built with cooked proteins, which could mean damaged amino acids were used to build a lot of the cells in the body. In this case, the body is going to want to eliminate those inferior amino acids. Does this mean you need to eat more protein? Not really. If you body gives you a signal to eat more, then sure, eat more. But eating raw fruits and vegetables should be enough. What more important than protein is getting energy to do the housecleaning, and the vital nutrients (vitamins, minerals, fibers, phytonutrients) that are rich in raw fruits and vegetables and nearly nil in cooked foods.

When I first when all raw, my body weight went down to 130 (I was at 165 before going raw). It stayed at that weight until I started eating the 80-10-10 diet, at which point I went through a 4 month period of having chronic fatigue, and I took time off from work to allow my body to rest and heal. After that period of fatigue, my weight started to increase by itself, and my body weight went to 140, at which it has been constant for many years now.

olivianewtonjohn Wrote:
>
> Really? Please explain how a body cleaning itself
> out of toxins would cause it to become weak and
> lose muscle mass. Isn't it more likely that it's
> a simple protein deficiency -- that I'm not taking
> in enough protein to keep my body building the
> muscle that I require for my regular endurance
> workouts?
>
> What is the physiology behind losing muscle mass
> as a result of detox, as opposed to insufficient
> nutrient intake?

doesn't sound like you're very open to hearing another opinion, but...

have you ever heard of anyone with a protein deficiency in the western world? i haven't.

you could ask fruitarian one on this board about his experience, which was the same as yours...

secondly, bryan explained the weak part.

and as far as not enough protein, you really don't know unless you know what your body needs, which is in line with what bryan was saying, and how much you are eating, and even then it's not critical to consume a certain amount of protein each and every day.

finally, you are assuming that you are losing muscle. getting soft and flabby does not necessarily mean that you are losing muscle tissue. other changes can be taking place other than losing muscle including changes in fluid retention and many other things.


best of luck to you during your transition

...Bryan thank for your last two posts, they make it all so clear. The numbers about protein needs are wonderful detail, I didn't know before.
...The body does NOT want to put up a new building on a crumbling old foundation.
...This is why, a real water fast--done properly--is a great way to begin, or help the transition to raw.
...When a person fasts, it is clear to them that weight loss is positive and temporary, and the price of admission to a better life.
When people can't keep weight on, on a raw diet they don't understand that it is the same process; only it takes much longer because the body is being forced to do 3-4 things at once: clean, digest food, and keep active; and eventually rebuild.
...However for most people a 2-3 week water-only-fast is not an option, because of any of a number of reasons: not enough time, lack of knowledge of how to do it right-and refeed properly afterwards, the very high cost of a supervised fast, the state of their health which may be quite poor, not being capable psychologically of accepting the need for rest, and fear of emaciation.
...IMO there are two 2nd-best alternatives for those who are really motivated, to speed the process up: occasional fresh organic juice fasts, and an occasional short water-only-fast of 4 days-followed by a cleansing diet ( ie. no oils, nuts or avocados, and few bananas, mostly juicy fruit--not eating before noon--a salad in the evening--small meals--this is called a half fast--and used by a frenchman, not sure of the spelling: Mosseri ?- with this regimine the tongue will stay coated-a sign that the cleansing is continuing-and one can remain active). I am not sure how long it is good to continue on such an extreme diet though. The half fast, and juice diet do have the advantage over water fasting in that they are safer and in that the body is continually supplied with minerals ( as well as vitamins etc.) which are frequently the limiting factor in the length of a water fast.

Lack of energy can also be due to many other reasons.

Not eating enough calories.

Eating too often and therefore not giving the body a break from digestion, which requires a lot of energy. Eat only when hungry. If you are not hungry at breakfast, don't eat. Fasting until noon is good for you. All the studies about needing breakfast are done on people eating the S.A.D. and they need a stimulant at breakfast to get going.

Eating too much fat which requires a lot of energy for digestion too.

Not eating enough greens, drinking enough water, etc.

Just some thoughts.

Karen, Fresh, and of course Bryan - great replies to Ms. Newton-John's comments above and as you know, that's EXACTLY how I've been feeling. Think at this point I finally understand what you've been trying to tell me.

I only ask that everyone here be patient with Ms. Newton-John as often times the inner workings of an athlete is a totally different mindset. While I don't claim to be Lance Armstrong, I'm a HUGE cyclist and about jumped out of my chair when I read her words of not being able to make it up a modest hill. Unless you workout hard every day, take pride in your appearance, and love the high attained by chewing up 100 miles on a road bike you won't understand what's going on in this person's head. It simply does not make sense in our brains to workout for years to attain a certain level of fitness, begin a truly superior eating program for life (raw), and then see our performance and muscle tone diminish. If you recall, I too, immediately thought it was a protein deficiency and my first inclination was what supplement could I ingest to return to my previous performance levels. It's the mindset of an athlete and certainly not someone who's closed to other opinions. It just doesn't calculate in our heads!

I often say to my wife when I mess up parenting our kids - I've never done this before! The same can be said about eating raw - I've never done this before and my entire background is the woeful Standard American Diet. It's going to take some time breaking through all these years of improper caloric intake and marketing campaigns from the meat & dairy industries.

Let's be tolerant of everyone who is here and clearly want and are trying to make a change - one for the better. Old habits are so hard to break and often times encouragement is a great teacher.

My best to all,

David

Thanks, Diamond Dave. To be clear, I'm trying to start an interesting discussion from which we all can learn about nutrition and activity. I assume we're all exploring this to some degree, and I also assume that none of us really has all the answers to how our bodies synthesize food and produce muscle and energy. We're all going on what we've read, and what we've experienced. I think it's valuable to share experiences and explore this and not simply be a cheerleader for this way of eating without questioning anything.

Yes, I too am a HUGE cyclist, and a moderate runner, and I've been miserable the past few weeks with my drastic reduction in energy and athletic capacity (strength, not aerobic.)

I generally bike to work every day, and it's Wednesday and I haven't been able to even motivate myself to get on the bike at all this week! It's usually the #1 thing I'm looking forward to as I get out of bed, but it's just been impossible. My energy and strength has diminished to a greater and greater degree as time has gone on since going raw 3 weeks ago -- at first, I had bounds of energy and just loved it. But that dropped off after a few days, and now I'm not exaggerating when I say that I can hardly get up a flight of stairs without getting light-headed and seeing stars in front of my eyes. My morning hour-long bikeride against a strong lake wind is brutal, when it's traditionally exhilirating. I finally got to the gym after work today for the first time this week (if I go 2 days in a row without at least an hour of good exercise I'm very unhappy), with the intent of a simple pilates class and then an easy swim, and I got through the pilates and absolutely could not manage to motivate myself to swim. In fact, I fell asleep in the sauna for a half hour, and then dragged my butt home, miserable.

Dave is very right when he says that this is an awful fate for an athlete. Being active and doing daily endurance rides and runs is one of the most important things in my life. I generally have bounds of energy, and pride myself on my muscle tone. My muscle mass and strength has greatly diminished in just 3 weeks -- partly, of course, because I can't manage to work out, so it's cyclical. Fresh suggested that I might be mistaken about losing muscle mass, but I can tell you that I definitely know my strength and my tone, and it's wasting away.

And it's not lack of calories, because I've been religiously tracking my food intake on fitday.com, and I'm getting 1600-2000 calories a day. I'm getting about 40 grams of protein. I also tend to get at least 100% of all the listed nutrients except calcium and zinc (and of course Vitamins D and B-12), which come out very very low, despite all my efforts to eat a ton of kale and peas. By the way, I'm a 32-year-old woman, 5'6", 127 pounds.

So I'm torn about the raw thing. I like the raw thing very much because (1) I'm convinced that eating raw rather than cooked produce is healthier, as it seems logical, and (2) I have had some digestive problems for many years under both a SAD and a vegan diet, and these problems have astoundingly cleared up under the raw diet. I think #2 alone is keeping me going on this for now.

But the problem I'm facing is that my endurance-sport-oriented lifestyle, along with a vegan diet, has brought me great health and fitness -- and I'm seeking even greater health and fitness through limiting my eating to raw foods. But a drastic decrease in energy and muscle tone to me represents a major step down in health, not up. (Maybe the health component is there, but the fitness component is not.)

So I have two questions for the group: (1) those of you who say you're getting enough protein eating simply fruits and vegetables -- what kind of exercise are you getting on a daily basis? And how many grams of protein?, and (2) there has been a lot of talk about a detox period where energy is zapped, etc. How long was this period, in your individual experiences?

For you raw athletes out there, I highly recommend you read Dr Graham vegsource forum and see how the athletes on that site are doing with a high fruit low fat raw vegan diet. Also, that website has a lot of annoying advertisements which you can avoid if you read this post.

olivia,

At this point it sounds like your body is going through a detox. Here is an excellent article on detoxification and the raw diet.

If you persist with the detoxification and raw diet, and give your body the extra rest and sleep it seems to be asking for, you will find that after the detox is over, you will have a new body with a higher capacity for endurance and performance than before the detox.

Your perception of loss of health is actually health being built right before your eyes, its just that to rebuild and heal the body, the body needs down time. For me that down time was 4 months of not working get getting a lot of rest and sleep. After my detox, my body started putting on weight and my health was at a whole new level. For Olivia, I have to wonder if this fatigue you are experiencing is your body healing its digestive system. Isn't it worth a few months of downtime for a healed body?

If you go to Doug's forum, read some of the article about and by Harley, who is a cyclist who lives on fruits and vegetables only. That guy rides his bike across the entire globe it seems.

olivianewtonjohn Wrote:

> this week (if I go 2 days in a row without at
> least an hour of good exercise I'm very unhappy),

i am an athlete also.
i understand your desires and needs.
listen to your body.
when you are tired, rest is what is needed, not intense biking or running

if you are eating correctly, your strength and energy will return.
and at a higher level.

you may want to share what exactly you are eating here since there could be some things that could cause problems.

i don't remember how long my detox was but it will vary widely depending on the person and it's worth it no matter how long it is.

I feel for you onj. Please keep us posted as to how you are doing. I am not an athlete so I don't have anything to contribute in that area. Sounds like you are eating plenty of calories. You said you've had digestive problems. Could you possibly be allergic to some foods? Maybe you could get the IgG blood test for food allergies or find a kinesiologist to help you.

I also saw this website today that has a free download written by a doctor that is a protocol for healing IBS [www.drdahlman.com].

Anyway, take care and hopefully get some extra rest like Bryan suggests.

Hi Bryan,

An article from this website, [www.living-foods.com], says that 75% of muscle is water weight, which makes our need of protein for building muscle even smaller (to about less than 5 grams per day). Does it make sense to you?

All the Best,
Wong

I think this has turned in to a really fabulous thread and I'll get off my workout soapbox now. I totally, TOTALLY understand about feeling odd when one misses a day or two at the gym...

Since I'm roughly in the same camp as Ms. Newton-John I'm going to put forth a positive outlook, continue eating quality foods (raw fruits & vegetables), and cut back - there, I said it - cut back on my workouts & long bike rides and rest more during this period of detox.

When I get bummed that a cold Stairmaster is getting the better of me or a guy who I normally thrash on the bike passes me, I'll repeat these sagacious words from Bryan:

"Isn't it worth a few months of downtime for a healed body?"

Best to all and thank you for this forum!!!

David