I just got my blood test results back and everything looks *great!!* with the exception of my iron (ferritin). My iron has gone from already low at 18 (from when I was transitioning to raw) to 7 (since I've been raw for ten months).

What can I do? I have been consistently eating lots of dark greens, parsley, and raisins. What else can I be doing? I've always been anemic (doctor thinks my stomach acid is too low and therefore iron isn't absorbed well?), but I thought raw would fix everything, including the iron (it *has* fixed a lot!!!). I can't believe it got worse. :-(

Any advice?

Love,

Gypsy

did they measure serum ferritin?

< 15 is supposed to be low.

however fatigue is strongly associated with low iron. are you fatigued?

good article here.

[whqlibdoc.who.int]

phytate and strongly inhibits iron absorption. (grains)
Sufficient amounts of ascorbic acid can counteract this inhibition
Almost all plants contain phenolic compounds as part of their defence
system against insects and animals. Only some of the phenolic compounds
(mainly those containing galloyl groups) seem to be responsible for the inhibition
of iron absorption (35). Tea, coffee, and cocoa are common plant products
that contain iron-binding polyphenols (36&#8211;39). Many vegetables,
especially green leafy vegetables (e.g. spinach), and herbs and spices (e.g.
oregano) contain appreciable amounts of galloyl groups, which strongly
inhibit iron absorption as well.
----------------

maybe ease up on the dark greens?

i'm not prescribing, but it does speak about green leafys inhibiting...

Wow, that's a lot of information on iron, Fresh! Thanks!

Yes, it was serum Ferritin. I am somewhat tired all the time--always feeling just a bit run down--but still more energy on raw than when I ate mostly cooked foods. I always read that everyone is bouncing around with raw energy and that just hasn't happened for me. It's probably from the iron...I'd really love that raw energy I read about!!! :-)

From reading that PDF file you shared, it looks like I need to always have a lot of Vit C when I consume my iron sources, then? I'm still not feeling confident that I've found a solution. I can't give up greens, yet (I say yet, because I'm not ruling out trying a fruitarian diet in another year, or two). If I ease up on the dark greens, wouldn't I be eliminating one of the main sources of iron?

There were some other things linked with the low ferritin on the report, I have since realized (after reading what you shared, as well as doing some more research on what some of the things are on the blood report). I have zero Eosinophilius (before raw, I had 1). And with Eosinophilis, Absolute, I had 40 before raw and now zero with raw. I looked it up and I didn't fully understand it, but maybe it's good to have zero? It's somehow linked with iron and it looked like it's the white blood that forms to fight off things--maybe that means I don't have anything that needs to be fought?

My hemoglobin and hematocrit are good levels. My WBC went dwon from 7.2 to 5.9 after raw and my RBC went from 4.54 to 4.73 on raw--both are within the normal ranges and I'm pretty sure the changes on raw were positive ones.

My RDW (I have no idea what that is) is too high--15.6 before raw and 15.2 after raw (normal is 11 to 15, so I'm not extremely high). My platelet count dropped from 393 to 269--that isn't good, is it?

UGH. It's so complicated. I think I should all the doctor on Monday and ask her to please go over it with me. She sent the result in the mail to me with a note that I need more iron but everything else was good. :-/

Thanks for your reply, Fresh.

Love,

Gypsy

It's important as you read that taking Vit C with the iron helps a lot with absorption. You can always make green/fruit smoothies. Before I found raw foods I took iron for a year in what because large amounts, then tapered off while I was discovering and utilizing raw foods. I started doing fresh green juices which helped a lot with that issue of low iron and I ate lots of fruits.

If you are dragging, you might want to use the iron supplements for a month or 2..if you are helped by them, it will tell you by energy levels in 1-3 days time.

Love,
Prism

I agree with Prism. Drinking green smoothies should help you get your iron stores back up. Since the greens are blended with fruits, even persons with low stomach acid should be able to see improved absorption.

GypsyArdor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wow, that's a lot of information on iron, Fresh!
> Thanks!
>

[www.clinchem.org]

the above source says for women the cutoff is 10 micrograms/liter
if that is the same value you were tested on.

so your result may be fine. don't let them freak you out or make you nonvegan.

there was some info on gold standard in the above article; maybe there's another test that can be done if you want to verify the first test.

i wouldn't be too concerned in the absence of substantial symptoms

iron deficiency symptoms

"The patient usually complains of weakness, easy fatigue, and irritability. Other symptoms include heartburn, flatulence, vague abdominal pains, soreness in the mouth, numbness and tingling in the extremities, and palpitation of the heart. The skin and mucous membranes are pale, the nails are often brittle, and there are fissures or sores at the corners of the mouth."

unless one is doing healthful things (diet/rest/movement) almost perfectly, there is going to be some fatigue. i've found that as the body becomes healthier, energy improves, but it also has a tendency to have a drop in energy (respond more strongly) to negative choices like salt or stimulants or overeating/undereating, where you might not have noticed it before.

your energy has improved from cooked which is good.

the only reason i mentioned the greens was if you were overdoing them, and if there was a clear problem with no other known cause.

it's likely you're getting enough vit c which may counteract the inhibitory effect.

> year, or two). If I ease up on the dark greens,
> wouldn't I be eliminating one of the main sources
> of iron?

i suppose, but there's iron in fruit too.

too much iron is bad too.

>It's somehow
> linked with iron and it looked like it's the white
> blood that forms to fight off things--maybe that
> means I don't have anything that needs to be
> fought?

right. i think the drop in wbc is good.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/2007 04:57AM by fresh.

Parsley has lots of oxalates, which can be responsible for inhibited uptake. Also spinach, chard, beet greens, and teas.

Switch to cruciferous greens and lots of lettuces. That's what I do--mostly lettuces, with less crucifers and even less in the spinach family.

My serum ferritin is normal but it's on the low side of normal. You might have to blend or juice at least some of your greens to get the greater nutrient uptake.

This is just one reason why I encourage people to use nutrient calculators online--to avoid these sorts of problems. Our bodies don't always tell us everything we need to know and preventative measures are best.

arugula Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> This is just one reason why I encourage people to
> use nutrient calculators online--to avoid these
> sorts of problems. Our bodies don't always tell us
> everything we need to know and preventative
> measures are best.

perhaps. however, if we follow correct NH principles, including only eating items that taste good (not too bitter and chewable) and that we can make a meal of, all of your above recommendations would be followed anyway. our bodies are more likely to respond favorably if we trust the body and not try to outthink it and eat certain foods for "nutrients".

what about quinoa? any experience with that?
1/2 cup uncooked = 43.5% rda iron
13g protein

but...

it has a whopping 363 cals..which would be good if you're constantly struggling to get enough cals. it's also high in omega 3 and 6 but not sure if that's good or bad since I don't know much about omegas.

I just bought some quinoa today (after making sure it's not a grain). It's related to swiss chard, kale, beetroot, and spinach.

[www.nutritiondata.com]

If you wish to improve your iron status, quinoa is not the way to go. It is a goosefoot in the spinach family, high in oxalates which bind tenaciously to iron ions.

Use lettuces and cruciferous vegetables/leaves (collards, kale, turnip greens, broccoli, mustards, arugula, cabbages. brussels sprouts etc.) instead. You can juice or blend some.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/2007 06:20PM by arugula.

I just posted something similar to this on the osteoporosis thread (sorry to be repititious).

I'm a believer in organic unhulled (brown) sesame seeds. Not only are they perhaps the most concentrated plant-source for calcium, they are also VERY high in IRON (and inexpensive too).

I eat them almost everyday, about 1/4 to 1/2 cup, soaked overnight or unsoaked.

Whether or not you believe in the RDAs (recommended daily allowances), nutrition charts are a good way to compare one food to another for nutrient content (I'd suggest using nutrition charts that specify their source of information somewhere on their site).

You can go to www.nutritiondata.com and search specific raw vegan foods for iron content (USDA data). Check the MINERALS chart for each food. For example:

1 cup of raisins supplies only 17% of the RDA for IRON (17% DV).
1 cup of spinach supplies only 5% of the RDA for IRON (5% DV).
1 cup of kale supplies only 6% of the RDA for IRON (6% DV).
1 cup of parsley supplies only 21% of the RDA for IRON (21% DV).

In contrast:

1 HALF cup of unhulled sesame seeds supplies 70% of the RDA for IRON (70% DV).

If you add up all of the above - EXCEPT the sesame seeds - you get only 49% of the RDA. For increasing your iron levels, you probably need more iron in your diet (IMHO).

If you're in good health otherwise, if you just add the half cup of sesame seeds to the iron-rich foods that you're already eating, you could probably get your iron levels back up to normal.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/2007 07:32PM by suncloud.

Hi! I know that beats have a lot of iron. You could get the 'nutrition almanac' to find which foods are high in iron. If you can't find a food to help (but I bet you can) you could also get a vegan food source supplement (as controversial as that maybe for raw foodies). Oh, I think kelp is high too.. along with other sea veggies.

hope this helps!!
peace and love, ann

suncloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I just posted something similar to this on the
> osteoporosis thread (sorry to be repititious).
>
> I'm a believer in organic unhulled (brown) sesame
> seeds. Not only are they perhaps the most
> concentrated plant-source for calcium, they are
> also VERY high in IRON (and inexpensive too).

And very high in oxalic acid also which renders it
not so usable. Maybe 10-20% or so will be taken
up and used by the body.

> 1 cup of raisins supplies only 17% of the RDA for
> IRON (17% DV).
> 1 cup of spinach supplies only 5% of the RDA for
> IRON (5% DV).
> 1 cup of kale supplies only 6% of the RDA for IRON
> (6% DV).
> 1 cup of parsley supplies only 21% of the RDA for
> IRON (21% DV).
>
> In contrast:
>
> 1 HALF cup of unhulled sesame seeds supplies 70%
> of the RDA for IRON (70% DV).

The differences are not so great when you compare
mg iron per kcal (or 200 kcal serving) rather than
using a volume or weight measure. But nutrient databases
tell you nothing about bioavailability.

Hi Arugula,

I hadn't heard that before about the oxalic content found in sesame seeds.

So I did some googling around, and DESPITE the oxalic content, sesame seeds are still recommended as one of the best plant sources for iron.

In fact, although it appears to be well known that oxalic content DOES have a negative affect on bioavailability, I couldn't find any source whatsoever stating that sesame seeds should NOT be considered a good plant source for iron due to the oxalic content, or for any other reason.

I found something else that I think is very interesting! Consumption of vitamin C RAISES the bioavailability of plant sources of iron. Vitamin C must be consumed at a rate of at least twice the amount of iron for the vitamin C to have a positive effect on bioavailability of iron.

IMO, this may actually be a MAJOR factor in enhancing the bioavailability of iron in a raw food diet. For instance:

You know me. I don't eat greens everyday. Sometimes I go for a couple of weeks without greens. The most I'll eat greens would usually be 2 or 3 times a week, because I'm sensitive to greens. I don't eat raisins either, and I rarely eat figs. But I nearly ALWAYS eat my sesame seeds, up to a half cup a day.

So then, without a lot of those iron-rich greens, one might assume that I'd be low in iron.

Au contraire, my sister! My iron levels are exactly in the middle of the normal range! And this is after 21 years of 100% vegan and close to 100% raw vegan for all that time. In fact, the only time I was low in iron was before I started eating seeds!

If we include the vitamin C factor in enhancing iron bioavailability, it might be VERY important to note that my vitamin C intake is far MORE than twice my iron intake, which is the ratio required for enhancing bioavailability.

I just did my "pantry" on nutritiondata.com for my typical day's diet that includes lots of fruit, an avocado (sometimes), a couple of brazil nuts, and 1/2 cup of sesame seeds. It came out to 19.8 mg iron (110% DV), and a WHOPPING 1012mg vitamin C (1687% DV).

That's a ratio of more than 50 mg vitamin C to 1 mg iron - a FAR greater concentration of vitamin C than the 2 to 1 ratio required for enhancing bioavailability of iron!

There probably aren't any scientific studies on the effects on oxalic content and bioavailability of iron from consuming that much Vitamin C from NATURAL RAW FOOD sources - almost daily for years and years.

Well, and who knows what scientists will find out next year about the synergistic effect one thing might have on another?

I'm a believer in science like you are (we seem to be somewhat rare here). My own experiences through the years have led me to pay at least some attention to getting enough of all the good, even after getting rid of all of the bad. I believe that science actually has the potential to accumulate enough evidence to support the superiority of a raw food vegan diet. I'm looking forward to that day.

But I also believe that science has a very, very, very, very, very, long way to go.

Until ALL the evidence is in (which may not be in our lifetimes), the evidence that counts the MOST can be still be summed up like this:

"The proof is in the pudding!" My iron count is in the middle of the normal range, and has been for at least the past 15 years.

btw, You're the one who led me to check into eating those Brazil nuts everyday.

Smiles for ya Arugula, and thanks.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2007 02:38AM by suncloud.

More info on oxalic acid and its effects on iron absorption:

From HealthCastle.com, an article entitled "Is Spinach a good source of iron?":

"Spinach...contains oxalic acid (which binds with iron, hence inhibiting its absorption". (but) "You do not need to give it up if you are a spinach lover. Simply eat spinach with any foods containing iron absorption enhancers."

Examples of absorption enhancers presented in the article included orange, cantaloupe, strawberries, grapefruit, "and other Vitamin C-rich foods", plus broccoli, brussels sprouts, tomato, tomato juice, potato, green and red peppers.

From Vegetarian Nutrition ("A diatetic practice group of the American Dietetic Association", by Srimathi Kanna, PhD:

"Inhibitors of iron include phytates, polyphenols, and fiber,oxalate, and, to a certain extent, calcium....

"Ascorbic acid (vitamin C) is the most potent enhancer of iron absorption. By adding substantial quantities of ascorbic acid to a plant-based meal, iron absorption may be increased as much as 6-fold".

From the European Journal of Clinical Nutrition, April 2007:

"Oxalic acid does not influence nonhaem (plant source) iron absorption in humans...

"Conclusion: Our findings strongly suggest that OA (oxalic acid) in fruits and vegetables is of minor relevance in iron nutrition".

I did find a few articles from genetic engineering study groups who thought that "genetic variation" of greens would be a really good idea "to improve" iron bioavailability. One such article was written by Rangarajan, Kelly, Dept. of Horticulture, Michigan State University. But even in this article, in referring to the foods that they wanted to "improve", the authors stated, "Generally, (foods) with higher total iron had higher levels of bioavailable iron."

The oxalic acid issue is one of the reasons why it is important to have variety in our greens and rotate through them.

See this article by Victoria Boutenko for more information [www.rawbc.org]

There's some great links on that rawbc site, karennd! thanks for sharing

Karennd, that's a wonderful article! After reading the article, I really like Victoria Boutenko.

Great, I like her too. There are some interviews with her on youtube. Here is one of them [youtube.com].

Oops, I made a mistake. A half cup of sesame seeds supplies 58% DV, not 70% DV as I stated in my first post. The 70% is for calcium.

Still yet, 58% of the Recommended Daily Allowance is a lot of iron.

It definitely seems like it would give a great big boost to a daily iron total when included with other iron-rich foods, and lots of Vitamin C from raw food sources.

Several web sites recommend sesame seeds as a curative for anemia, expecially the black sesame seeds (google, "sesame seeds, anemia".



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2007 08:09PM by suncloud.

Thanks for all of the advice. I'm increasing my Vit C intake, since I noticed that my spotting between periods goes away when I eat a lot of oranges (making me think maybe I'm low in Vit C). So, maybe my problem isn't enough iron but not enough Vit C. Anyway, I'll give it a try and see what happens.

Thanks, again. I'm going to include more of the suggestions, as well (just in case I *do* need to increase my iron, as well).

Love,

Gypsy

Hi Gypsy,

In case you didn't see this, I posted this in the anemia thread:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

IRON CONTENT of high-iron greens
10 g (yes, only ten) chlorella powder = 13.9 mg
200 g parsely = 12.4 mg
200 g dandelion = 6.2 mg
200 g spring mix (made by Earthbound organics) ~ 6.0 mg
200 g kale = 3.4

If I recall correctly, the RDA for iron is 15 grams/day for men and 18 grams/day women.

So you can see that the quick fix is chlorella; waaaaay better than chemo. You can get some here: [www.mountainroseherbs.com], but I've also heard that Alissa Cohen sells chlorella.

Now the only trick is getting 10 grams of that chlorella powder (or other greens) into smoothies a couple times a day in a way that is palatable...

Best Wishes.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

There are other posts there on iron, as well.

Thanks, Sciencegal. :-)

I love parsley, spring mix, and kale. I don't care for the green powders, though. I wonder about how much 200 g of parsley equals in cups? Does anyone know a rough estimate?

Love,

Gypsy

Hi Gypsy,

1 cup of fresh raw parsley is 60 g. So 3 cups would be 180 g.

That's according to nutritiondata.com. You can go there and search parsley (or whatever). You'll get several options under parsley, you can choose "parsley, raw", and then check the serving options at the top of the "parsley, raw" page. The first serving option is for 1 cup or 60.0 g.

If you like, you can scroll down to the minerals chart and see how much of the RDA (%DV) is supplied by the one cup serving size. You can multiply that percent by 3 for 3 cups.

If you change the serving size at the top of the page, you'll get a new page with all new charts. Kinda fun if you're into it.

Hi Gypsy,

If you can, switching your diet to organic will increase the iron content of it by 20%+, see for example [www.ioia.net]

Cheers,
J

Suncloud,

Thanks for the site! I like parsley a lot, but I doubt I'd eat 3 cups of it a day. :-P I've been working on consciously adding more and more iron-rich foods in my day and consuming them with vitamin C-rich foods. I'm thinking I might take an iron supplement every once in a while, too, just to help my levels get to a healthy range.

Jose, that's good to know! I do eat strictly organic (my food bill every month is more than my mortgage payment). It's great to know there are more nutrients in the organics.

Love,

Gypsy

I eat at least 3 cups a day of parsley, by putting it in smoothies...I'm drinking a parsleyand date smoothie right now and I love the flavour.

I use about $4 worth of organic parsley a day, which is approx. 4 cups chopt. My iron levels (skin tone and energy ) have improved dramatically since drinking these.... it only took 2-3 weeks to see a huge difference and it all keeps getting better.

Ooh! I'm willing to try it, aquadecoco! You put about 4 cups of chopped parsley in a blender with how many dates (and what else)??

Thanks!

Love,

Gypsy

Today I drank 2 of these:

about 2 cups water
about 4 cups rough-chopt parsley
about 3-4 dates

Blend for about 1-2 minutes on high.
Add water if it's too thick.



Yum.

Thanks, aquadecoco! I'll give it a try to see if I like it. :-)

Love,

Gypsy