Forgive me if this topic has been up and I missed it. What does everyone think about the concept of orthorexia? Certainly their are health foodists who take things to far, and that can be a major health concern. But couldn't a perfectly healthy raw foodists be misconstrued as having an eating disorder when compared to the typical American diet? Where is the line drawn? It seems natural we must draw that line for ourselves, but if others have concerns for us how do we know whether or not they see something we don't see? Can a healthy raw diet become an unhealthy diet or an obsession? And if for some reason we ourselves don't see it, when do we take advice from our "unhealthy SAD" friends?

(By the way, I'm putting this up simply for conversation, I don't have a problem, and none of my friends or family believe I do either.)

I am orthorexic compared to SADs, but I am very lax compared to some people here.

It all depends on your point of view and how willing you are to be pigeonholed by some psychologist who wanted to write a silly paper with a new word.

in my opinion the "typical american" culture as a whole has a serious and dangerous eating disorder

and we raw foodists are normal eaters

arugula Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It all depends on your point of view and how
> willing you are to be pigeonholed by some
> psychologist who wanted to write a silly paper
> with a new word.

And what is the actual definition of this new word 'orthorexia' i had never seen it until this post.

Thanks

When I was slim, healthy, and physically fit, fat people complained about me all the time. They complained, without invitation by me, that I was too skinny. I wasn't according to any measure. When I got fat, the fat people stopped volunteering that they didn't like my body.

I work with mostly fat, out of shape people who eat the Standard American Diet. When I tell them I've lost 25 pounds of fat since August by eating mostly fruits and vegetables and by increasing my physical activity level, they look at me as if I were explaining a complex calculus problem. They don't get it. They go on eating their chemicals and animal fats.

I honestly feel very lucky to have found this lifestyle. If all the fat people in the world think I'm crazy or have an eating disorder: OH WELL.

I think they all have an eating disorder! What person, with any awareness, would want to eat what they do? I have no attraction whatsoever to the crap my co-workers have been shoveling into their fat bodies for the past 24-hours. Halloween is an excuse. Yuck! Snickers, Twizlers, M&Ms...

One person's obsession is another's lifestyle. This is my lifestyle. If someone else wants to call it an "obsession" that's ok with me as long as they don't take my fruits and veggies away! Yum!

Once you really wake up, it's really hard to want to go back to sleep again.


Lee

What is orthorexia???

oposite of fatorexia??


RawGosia channel
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I've wondered about this regarding myself.
but if being obsessed with a "clean" diet is the symptom, and the result is clean health, then I don't mind the label.

when I go home to visit my folks, my dad always comments about how he'd like to "eat more like Shaina....Shaina wouldn't eat this junk." (someday he'll put it into action.)

measure twice, cut once.

"In Watermelon Sugar the deeds were done and done again as my life is done in watermelon sugar." ~r.brautigan

I make paintings

People judge your life (people that SHOULD care about you anyway...)....based on whether you are happy...and successful. Beyond THAT....who cares whether you are fixated on diet......or little pink elephants. As long as you pay your taxes and bills......or breaking any major laws.....and no one gets off trying to prove you are trying to harm yourself or others....then you can do whatever the crap you want in America....generally speaking.

-If some one (including family or friends) indicates that I'm 'fixated' on diet....I say, "OK. I've heard you - and thank you for your concern." END of discussion! ha! ha!

-David Z. Mason

WWW.RawFoodFarm.com

Sorry, I made a mistake. He is not a psychologist but an MD.

Orthorexia is defined as preoccupation with righteous eating, to the point where it interferes with one's social life, etc.

I wonder what the hell is wrong with people who load their carts up with soda-pop and chips and refined carbs. We hear every day about how bad this @#$%& is for you, how you should be eating more fruit and vegetables, yet this is considered the norm?!

People should eat things that they enjoy, out of a conscious concern for their health. Eating something repulsive, because you think it's healthy is orthorexic. Eating something unhealthy because it tastes good is just as bad. So is eating too much or too little.

I've learned over the years to listen to my body over all the noise of nutritionists, family, diet books and so on.

~fatorexia~


haha good one gosia

From the Orthorexia wiki:

Orthorexic subjects typically have specific feelings towards different types of food. Preserved products are described as "dangerous", industrially produced products as "artificial", and biological products as "healthy".

Umm... Most preserved foods ARE dangerous. Industrially produced products, by the very definition of their name, ARE artificial. Biological products (I'm assuming they mean whole foods) ARE healthy.

I whole heartedly reject the assertion that raw veganism is a mental disease, and it really sounds to me like that's just what Dr. Bratman (the man who coined the term Orthorexia) is saying.

I bet he and my mom would get along swimmingly, ha ha :]

-Alex

Cukes :
When is it someone elses right to make decisions for you ?

Lee_123 :
Nice post.

DavidZ :
I don't wish to be cynical, but as I understand it its a case of "freedom of speach as long as you don't say too much". Meaning that people are given free reign as long as it doesn't threaten the establishment, especialy the economic one !

I believe that natural health represents a threat to quite a large part of our economic sector because food and medicine are such a large part. Our education system premotes that diet has no part in our physical health and because our medical profession pass this on to our trusting public it builds a natural scorn for the alternative.

So, people let homeless people lie on the street dying while they criticise people who endevour to make themselves healthy in non conventional ways and take peoples kids away from them for apparent parental neglect when they raise them on a raw diet.

But I think we're all learning something

I see orthorexia as a variation of the compulsive obsessive disorder. People can use anything to beat themselves into sickness, whether its drugs, sex, relationships, work, religion, spirtuality, diet or health. A person obsessed with health but is finding themselves with declining health I would say is doing something that is not working. However, if it is working, I don't think I would call this orthorexia.

Bryan Wrote:
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> I see orthorexia as a variation of the compulsive
> obsessive disorder.

That's my thought as well. Someone who is orthorexic probably has Obsessive Compulsive tendancies.

I've had criticism from friends because I've given up beverages with aspartame and I don't heat up foods in plastics. They think all that, in addition to eating high raw, is extreme behavior. And they say this to me with a cigarette in one hand and a can of diet pepsi in the other, which btw, is their secret to staying thin. Cigs and artificially sweetened drinks! LOL

LightForm:

Of course. When has it ever been any different? Economic interests almost always want to preserve THEIR easy economic interests. There is no conspiracy there! Why promote solar panels....when cheap black goop that you pump out of your backyard sells for $100 a barrel? LOL. No big deal.

-I peruse the forums on peak oil and such that Narz often refers me to....and homesteading/independence websites. The people there (and other places) say EXACTLY what's on their mind......and believe me.....it very directly challenges big oil....and other economic establishments! People in all walks of life speak out against the wars abroad.....which is big business! Those political and social leaders speak out directly against the wars....and promote reductions in troops and funding. Is this not so?

-In America, you have a leader on free expression worldwide. We have always been such. Just my opinions.

-David Z. Mason

WWW.RawFoodFarm.com

Here is my story,

I am a 45 year old male 100% raw for over 3.5 years now. I got allot of comments and concerns from my co-workers and family. I started to question my self if I am doing something wrong or they are seeing something in me. I decided to check my self. I went to a clinic and I ask for full check-up and blood work. The MD also was worry after I told him what I am eating.

The check-up results and my blood work was good by their MD standard. I talk a copy of the blood work report for my record.

Also, I called my optometrist and asked for a copy of my previous records. Then I went for new check-up. As a result, my optometrist found that I gained .75 from my last record. That mean, my eye site got better and I do not need reading glass any more. I took a copy of his finding for my record.

I went to the office with all my records and I showed my co-workers my records. After that day, the whole situation has reversed now they come to me for advice. Now, I am in trouble. Also the same thing happen with my family.

I hope that will help.

Hilal.

Great thread; thanks for starting.

I'm gonna throw myself out as an example of orthorexia. I have been raw vegan for about a year, vegan for 5 years before that. I was healthy as a vegan, but going raw resulted in me losing weight to the point of extreme ematiation (and I do mean that - I'm not simply "thinner that SAD people". The difference here between my situation and that of any other raw fooder who gets too skinny is that mine involved emotional/mental factors. I believe that if I was not someone who has obsessive-compulsive tendencies and a history of anorexia to boot, I would not have deteriorated to this point.

At the same time, I wholeheartedly agree with Lee: once you wake up, it's damn near impossible to want to go back to sleep again (and why *would* you want to?!). Now my issue is drawing that line - I should really be in the hospital, but I won't go because, as all of us here know, the food there does not cure a damn thing. But when it will potentially save my life to be there, does it really matter? I can always return to raw when my weight is restored, right? Aye, there's the rub...

I think it is a take off on the word orthopathy:

WHAT IS ORTHOPATHY?
Another word for Natural Hygiene is orthopathy. Dr Herbert Shelton, who wrote several books on orthopathy, says: "orthopathy comes from the Greek, Orthos, erect, regular, right, correct; and Pathos, to suffer. The word means Right or Correct Suffering, and is intended to convey the thought that when one is sick, his condition is governed by law as truly as when he is well.
[www.orthopathy.net]

I will admit I am totally obsessed with raw food. I've been raw for over two months now and I feel like I've fallen in love with food in a way I never have before. I used to be a compulsive over eater. Always binging on really unhealthy sugary foods, it was an addiction.

They say the best way for addicts to overcome their addiction is to replace it with something else. Some choose to replace it with other unhealthy things, but some people choose to replace it with something good.

I'm glad I'm obsessed with being healthy! People that want to call it a disorder are in denial about whats good for them. I've noticed the people most critical of my diet are the people who eat the worst. Its like when an alcoholic wants you to get drunk with them because it makes them feel better about being a drunk.

The best thing we can do is stand our ground and keep educating people, most don't listen, but some people with open minds will see what works for us and add some of it to their lifestyles.

When people are judgemental, I just smile and say, "You don't even know homie! Raw food is where its at!" haha, or something like that.

I really can't stand all of the labels that have been created to prove that someone is/isn't healthy (or ill, or something else).

An ex friend called me orthorexic, went on a rampage to convince all my other friends and family of her belief, became insanely angry when I said I understand her concern, but I'm very healthy and there's nothing to be concerned about. Like others have pointed out, it's ironic that those pointing fingers and calling names are the ones consuming the most unhealthy things (sodas, alcohol, packaged junk, etc.), are depressed, and look/act unhealthy. In my case, my path to better health threatened my friends (the one more than the others). By me becoming healthier and even more conscious about what I was eating, it acted as a mirror for them and they didn't like what they were seeing.

I stopped changing myself so that others could feel better and finally started living for myself. I ended the friendships for various reasons (raw foodists aren't kidding when they say you'll detox on many different levels), but being falsely accused of orthorexia certainly didn't make the friendships stronger. People should be careful about calling other people names (aren't we supposed to learn that when we are kids?).

I am strongly opposed to the idea that "Raw Food = orthorexia". But, sadly, I am beginning to believe that orthorexia might be a name for a legitimate illness if not simply a variation of OCD or Anorexia. Take the Enchantress's comment for instance.

....."Now my issue is drawing that line - I should really be in the hospital, but I won't go because, as all of us here know, the food there does not cure a damn thing. But when it will potentially save my life to be there, does it really matter? I can always return to raw when my weight is restored, right? Aye, there's the rub..."

OR Bryan's qoute
..... "A person obsessed with health but is finding themselves with declining health I would say is doing something that is not working."

If this is a real problem, that risks taking people's lives and is often associated with the raw food lifestyle how can we as a community help?
For the sake of those suffering and for the good name of raw food...what can be done?

Perhaps if this is indeed a real problem, it should be brought to the surface with out misrepresenting raw food. If others are going to bring it to the surface and slander raw food diets, shouldn't we also comment on the potential dangers of very low body weights in connection to over restricting calories? Does anyone know if this is being done anywhere within our greater online community?

Hmm.. I don't know about the rest of the raw community but speaking for myself, I don't feel the need to deffend anything at all. People can take and discard what ever they please and if they realy want to become healthy then they will find raw.

People can say what they like but in the end, its the results that matter. I don't need to prove to someone else that my diet works for me !

>in the end, its the results that matter. I don't need to prove to someone else that my diet works for me !

Yes, this is so true. The differences might not be so evident when people are in their 20s when their bodies are better equipped to handle abuse and they have peak antioxidant defenses, but these things go downhill with time. Differences between diets are more obvious in the 30s, even more so in the 40s. The older you get, and the longer you stick with it, the more obvious is the difference. The results speak for themselves.

I am trying to be quiet about mine and wait for the others to ask me questions. Slowly slowly, it happens.

Enchantress, are there any raw vegan foods that could help improve your weight/health? Is your raw diet varied enough? I hope you get to feeling better.

Cukes and Bryan, I share your concern. Why is it that most seem to thrive on vegan raw food, but a few do not? It would be so good if there were a sure way to help those who aren't thriving on raw vegan food, but who still want to stay raw vegan. Maybe there is such a way, and that's what this forum's all about. Maybe everybody's input is another piece in the puzzle.

I love your post abuz. A couple of years ago, I had a similar experience with my doctor of 22 years, who is the same age as me.

I don't see him very often, but the last time I saw him, he'd gained quite a bit of weight and suddenly seemed very concerned about my being vegan for so long. I hadn't lost weight, and I've eaten this way almost since I've known him, so it struck me as a little odd.

Anyway, I had to have a full physical exam and my blood levels checked for a job. My results were great like yours, abuz (I wish I'd saved my records like you did).

Since my doctor seemed concerned though, I checked nutritiondata.com and put together a list of everything I ate and added it all up to show my doctor why I thought I was getting enough of everything I needed. But I never got to give it to him, because shortly afterwards, my doctor had to retire due to a bad back. I think maybe his weight had strained his back.

He's such a nice person. I feel sad that he hurt his back, but happy for him that he got to retire!

I think some of us looked to raw to improve our health. Others to improve their aesthetics. Anyone with obsessive tendencies that is trying to stay raw to improve their looks is not concerned about eating healthy as much as losing weight fast. They might not be as concerned with the health benefits of living foods, therefore, they are more likely to neglect their nutritional needs. They might be putting too much emphasis on a low calorie count than on good nourishment. That might explain why they're doing poorly, whereas others are thriving on raw.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2007 08:51PM by roxeli.

Cukes Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forgive me if this topic has been up and I missed
> it. What does everyone think about the concept of
> orthorexia?

No idea what that word is.

Certainly their are health foodists
> who take things to far, and that can be a major
> health concern.

Eh, I've seen even "Healthy" non-raw Health-Freaks who take things too far. There's a few people on Curezone.com that I'd call Obsessive Compulsive Zappers who zap everything to death out of fear of parasites. Some have even given up their poor dogs and cats who they "love" because they truly believe the animal is the reason for their "problems" caused by invisible parasites.

But couldn't a perfectly healthy
> raw foodists be misconstrued as having an eating
> disorder when compared to the typical American
> diet? Where is the line drawn?

I think the line can be drawn on their attitude about it. Some people will go too far to say why they won't eat something or go out of their way too much to avoid it. If you don't want to eat desert, then politely refuse. You don't have to get on your highhorse and blablabla about all the shitty ingredients in it. It's the same as an annorexic counting calories in celery and blablabla'ing about all the fat in the icecream. Annorexic is afraid to get fat and Raw Foodist is afraid to die or get sick from a piece of cake. Even if you really do, it's not *the normal* and a psychiatrist would throw you in a eating disorder hospital to teach you junk is ok in moderation. LOL



It seems natural
> we must draw that line for ourselves, but if
> others have concerns for us how do we know whether
> or not they see something we don't see?

Depends what the concerns are... If they're pointing out that you're losing weight and you really are a walking skeleton there's a problem there. If it's something they've noticed like when you go shopping together you're tiring out faster now and suggest you eat and you say you're fine.. That's kind of weird figuring you should have more energy on raw.

Can a
> healthy raw diet become an unhealthy diet or an
> obsession? And if for some reason we ourselves
> don't see it, when do we take advice from our
> "unhealthy SAD" friends?
>

Yes. I would say if quite a few people are pointing something out about you,(well not you personally, I mean in general) then it might be worth looking into. Even if it's just a few Google searches to see if it's something a deficiency can cause or post about it on a raw food group like this one and get advice from people that eat the way you do. I'd trust a message board like this over my mother any day.

This is a great topic.

I entered the raw world via the 21 Day Detox with two friends of mine. We all expressed being on alert with regard to becoming obsessive. The significant difference was that this style of eating is self-honoring rather than negating. We all experienced that it was a surprisingly painless transition (thanks very much to avocado) and I continue to find great relief in this approach to eating. My mind and body seem to sigh heavy sighs of gratitude. And yet I'm careful to allow myself to eat outside of raw when it feels right to me for the very purpose of not developing an obsession or contaminating this refreshing and invigorating lifestyle with stress.

Nice posts by everyone !
I've just been thinking about this and you know.. I reckon that the distinction could probably be made between healthy or moving toward compulsive by wether the motive is positive like enthusiasm or negative such as worry or guilt etc.

Either way its still an individuals right to live how they like imo.