lisa m Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi all
>
> just a couple of points:
>
> firstly, re the comparison between computer
> science and biological science: I feel this isn't
> really a very useful analogy. Despite what
> biomedicine has tried to convince us for the past
> couple of hundred years, the human body is not a
> 'machine'. It is a living, breathing entity;
> affected not just by toxins and microbes but also
> by many diverse social factors. Biological
> science does not consist of objective ‘facts’. It
> is merely a succession of theories which are
> constantly being disproved and reshaped in keeping
> with current beliefs.

You don't understand the term "theory" as used by science.
In scientific usage, a theory does not mean an unsubstantiated
guess or hunch, as it often does in other contexts. A theory
is a logically self-consistent model or framework for describing
the behavior of a related set of natural or social phenomena. It
originates from and/or is supported by experimental evidence.

That last sentence means it's based on FACTS.

I am really trying to be nice, to not get snarky, but if you
don't udnerstand the above paragraph, then you have no business
criticizing science. I don't mean that just for you, but for
anybody who doesn't understand this paragraph, and who wants to
diss science.


>
> Secondly, re the fruitarian issue: I personally
> welcome the input of the fruitarians who post here
> – I generally find them an inspiring influence on
> this ‘community’. And just one more thing - raw
> vegans who happen to eat a large percentage of
> fruit are not fruitarians – they are raw vegans.

Yes, but a raw vegan, "technically," who only eats
something non-fruit every other day, in very small
amounts, is a wannabe fruitarian who just can't bring
him or her self to go all the way because they know
deep down that they need more, could still feel
threatened by people pointing out that 2 leaves of
lettuce don't really have very much protein at all.

> How would one define a ‘regular’ raw vegan anyway?
> Are we all to fill in a questionnaire so that our
> diet can be ‘approved’ before we answer any newbie
> questions?

Point taken, the best approach is probably just what
I've done: take on specific incorrect statements.

rawgosia Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I see that this surprising discussion is still
> going on.

So what?

>I am really surprised, because I have
> never seen and statistical or even anecdotal
> evidence that specifically raw foodists should
> worry about becoming protein defficient. On the
> contrary.

I suspect the reality is that you try to fit your
observations of reality to your preconcieved ideas.

However, my argument on this thread has been that
one can't get enough protein just from vegetables.
You keep trying to make it more than that. Why?

Maybe you feel threatened because fruitarians try to
get all of their protein from fruits and vegetables.
The fruitarian thing expalins it all.


>I see raw foodists who heal themselves
> from all sort of problems, and transform their
> bodies.


Have I taken that on as an issue? No.

>I see kids growing up on an all-raw diet
> in all-raw families, beginning from being in the
> womb. Myself, I have never observed a hint of
> evidence that I should worry about protein
> deficiency and tailor my diet to avoid it. Not at
> all. I simply eat when hungry and eat what tastes
> good at the moment. Same with my husband. Same
> with my children. Same with my many friends.
> Surely, if there were any reasons to worry about
> protein deficiency, I would have noticed something
> by now.
>
> Do I know to count, do I read published research?
> Yes to both questions. PhD and MSc in Applied
> Maths here, with a solid background in probability
> and statisitics. I am a scientist.

So how come you didn't know that 1.2 grams out of a 100
grams is 1.2 percent? That is so basic it's like first grade
level.

I have a question for you. Do you understand the importance
of the limiting amino acid?

>My scientific
> conclusion of the analysis of the various
> approaches to raw food diet is that it is not our
> intelect that holds the answers to the question
> about the ideal diet, but our body. Intelect is
> usuful of course, but should not be used to
> override the information that body provides.

I am using my intellect in a way that you refuse to,
and want other people to stop doing too.

>
> Am I a fruitarian??? Well, I have never defined
> myself as such. I eat what I want, and I do not
> follow any external rules. I do not strive to
> become this or that. I love eating raw foods. Bulk
> of what I eat happens to be fruit, and this is not
> because I think that I should be eating fruit, but
> because I find fruit most satisfying and hydrating
> food.
>
> By the way, I have been on this board since 2003.
> Hardly unannounced.

You hardly announced to the original poster that you
are a "mostly" fruitarian. I figured it out by looking
at your web site.

>
> If you are a newbie, rest assured that you do not
> need to do anything to avoid protein deficiency.

If you are a newbie, rest assured that you are not
getting balanced and complete information from this
poster.


> You do not need to tailor your diet, you do not
> need to try making it a balanced diet, and you do
> not need to focus on getting enough of something
> in your diet (such as protein, for example). I
> have one word of advice though. It seems to me
> that many problems that arise during transition
> process correspond to overintelectualizing,
> instead of trying to regain one's touch with one's
> body.

That's none of your business.

>Take for example, eating raw foods that one
> thinks they should eat, rather than eating raw
> foods that one loves. This type of behaviour could
> lead to deficiencies, in my opinion.

Yes, like eating lettuce and thinking you're getting
enough protein from that, because somebody posted
somewhere that you can get plenty of protein from
two leaves of lettuce.

>I recommend
> that, instead, you eat raw foods you love*** and
> be open to transformation. Transition is a very
> interesting and sometimes surprising process. It
> can actually be very enjoyable watching oneself
> progrees to levels one would never expect to get.
> Once can learn a lot through this. I certainly do.
>
>
> ***Interestingly, this type of approach has a good
> biological explanation. Scientists do begin to
> support it with some research:
> Gietzen DW, Rogers QR
> Nutritional homeostasis and indispensable amino
> acid sensing: a new solution to an old puzzle
> TRENDS IN NEUROSCIENCES 29 (2): 91-99 FEB 2006
> (see also a plain language commentary at
> [www.bio.com]
> res.jhtml?cid=9200001)

The original poster said she was tired all the time, even
though she eats nuts, seeds, and even raw egg yolk. So
then she is advised to eat more green vegetables.

Being tired all the time is a good indication of lack of protein.
I don't want to get into whether or not she actually did have a
protein deficiency, but I do want to get into this: Should she
listen to her body and start eating more protein, or should she
listen to the advice to just eat more vegetables?

The problem with the idea of listening to your body, is the human
mind has a strong tendency to over-ride the signals given by the
body.



>
> Regards,
> Gosia.
> (http://www.rawgosia.com)


Gosia,

If you were a scientist, you would have read that the web site you
posted gave the same numbers as the web site I posted: 1.2 grams
per 100 grams of lettuce. But you didn't even bother. You even
thought you were refuting my data. No scientist would do such a
thing. Conclusion: If you are a scientist, you're acting like
you put it all behind you, but you still want the authority.

Now, what are you telling me you have a background in science for?
Is it, perhaps, to garner respect for being part of the priesthood?
Because you say you are a scientist, I should take your word for it,
even though you admit you have decided not to use your brain on this
matter, and you think the rest of us shouldn't either? You are using
appeal to authority, and I'm not buying it.

cherimoya Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Rawgosia said it all don't worry about a protien
> deficiency.

Cherimoya,

How did you arrive at that conlcusion? I hope it's not
because she claims she's a scientist.

kohlabri, throwing wrong/hostile statements in my direction does not help your argument.

"So how come you didn't know that 1.2 grams out of a 100 grams is 1.2 percent? That is so basic it's like first grade level."
Where specifically did you see me saying that I did not know that? Do you think that saying that helps your argument? Please note that it doesn't. It only proves that you are unable to defend your argument.

“Maybe you feel threatened because fruitarians try to get all of their protein from fruits and vegetables.”
I do not feel threatened. Perhaps you are saying this, because you are? Those who you call fruitarians, do not try to get anything out of anything. They simply live and enjoy their lives. Feeding oneself can be effortless.

"That's none of your business."
Well, in your opinion may be. In my opinion however, I am free to share with others and you have no right to stop me from doing so. I love sharing my experience with others, and give back what I've been given. Pitty that you have to feel threatened by that.

">Take for example, eating raw foods that one
> thinks they should eat, rather than eating raw
> foods that one loves. This type of behaviour could
> lead to deficiencies, in my opinion.

Yes, like eating lettuce and thinking you're getting enough protein from that, because somebody posted somewhere that you can get plenty of protein from two leaves of lettuce."
No, you have not understood me at all. Eating foods that one thinks that they should eat rather than eating raw foods that they love, could lead to deficiencies because of the denial of the signs that body gives when one needs some type of nutrient.

“The original poster said she was tired all the time, even though she eats nuts, seeds, and even raw egg yolk. So then she is advised to eat more green vegetables. Being tired all the time is a good indication of lack of protein.”
Being tired all the time, besides a plain detox, can be an indication of eating too much fat or poor food combining.

“Should she listen to her body and start eating more protein, or should she listen to the advice to just eat more vegetables? The problem with the idea of listening to your body, is the human mind has a strong tendency to over-ride the signals given by the body.”
Listening to one’s body is something that raw foodists learn gradually, and this can take some time. During this process, it is important to keep experimenting with foods that we think we might not like, or we will have no chance to find out that we actually do. Thankfully, as we progress in our raw, we learn how to do it eventually. Even progressing to food combining rules and mono-eating can happen spontaneously (it did in my case, for example). The key is to be open to change, and make gradual improvements as we learn through our experiences. Understanding this makes the journey so much easier, not only for those new to raw.

"Conclusion: If you are a scientist, you're acting like you put it all behind you, but you still want the authority."
Wrong conclusion. I don't care about authority at all. I care about others and share with them what I have learned. Authority has nothing to do with it. I mentioned that I am a scientist to highlight the fact that my approach to diet has been the result of me being able to go beyond my analytical mind, rather than the result of lack of it.

"I suspect the reality is that you try to fit your observations of reality to your preconcieved ideas."
Wrong again. I am a type of person who likes to change and is open to learning and transformation. I have no preconceived ideas. In fact, I consider this to be the key to success.

"However, my argument on this thread has been that one can't get enough protein just from vegetables. You keep trying to make it more than that. Why?"
I think that it is you who are trying to make more out of what I am saying than I am saying. I am not really interested in your opinions on lettuce etc. As I said, I am sharing my views with others. As it happens, they may differ from yours. Don’t assume that I am addressing specifically you, each time I open my mouth.

">I see raw foodists who heal themselves
> from all sort of problems, and transform their
> bodies.

Have I taken that on as an issue? No."
??? You are assuming that I am addressing you here. Note that I am not.

“You hardly announced to the original poster that you are a "mostly" fruitarian. I figured it out by looking at your web site.”
I do not have to announce that at all, even if I had defined myself to be one. In my view, your suggestion of me having to do it is totally ridiculous. You have no right to demand that I classify myself to be ‘mostly “fruitarian”’ and/or say specifically this when I talk to people on this board. Read the board rules. By the way, as you have noticed, I provide a link to my website, where people can read about my raw journey. So I am transparent about who I am.


Gosia
(http://www.rawgosia.com)

Kohlrabi:

Science does use logic, but it is not inherently and fully logical.

Logic is based on pairing symbols with concepts, and being consistent with those symbols... like how all scientists agree that 1 + 1 = 2. In that respect, scientists use logic; you won't find scientists arguing over whether 2 and 2 makes 4 or 5. Scienctists also make excellent use of stipulative thinking (If 1 + 1 = 2, and 1 + 1 + 1 = 3, Then 1 + 2 = 3). But that does not make Science infallible.

As you wrote:
"In scientific usage, a theory does not mean an unsubstantiated
guess or hunch, as it often does in other contexts. A theory
is a logically self-consistent model or framework for describing
the behavior of a related set of natural or social phenomena. It
originates from and/or is supported by experimental evidence. "

Evidence does not necessarily beget understanding. In fact, evidence and understanding are not the same thing at all. When something is understood, there is no need for some sort of "external" evidence. In fact, inherent within the definition of evidence is that it is not an exact truth, or "fact", if you'd like.... it is only a [potential] indicator towards a truth.

I think the scientific method is pretty awesome, when used properly, to improve the quality of our lives... but, it is, as I mentioned earlier, not the same as actual understanding. You are using what seems to me to be the most current scientific findings (evidence) in the field of nutrition, which is laudable... however, you are also misleading people by discrediting those that share the ideas of fruitarianism, and other related ideas given in this thread, as though the statistics you have provided are somehow infallible, which they are not.

I am not necessarily saying that fruitarianism is actually correct... I am saying, however, that you have no logical basis for discrediting them. Your position is based on evidence and not understanding.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2006 06:34AM by ThomasLantern.

Kohlrabi wrote


Being tired all the time is a good indication of lack of protein.
I don't want to get into whether or not she actually did have a
protein deficiency, but I do want to get into this: Should she
listen to her body and start eating more protein, or should she
listen to the advice to just eat more vegetables?

There may be many factors for someone to be tired all the time besides a so called protien deficiency.

Have you ever heard of not enough food,calories,energy whatever you want to call it.

It would be very difficult but not impossible to just eat raw kohlrabi and get enough energy,Kj,calories but you would have to eat like 10 kilos of kohlrabi depending on your activity level.

I will stick with my cherimoyas and you can eat all the kohlrabi you want.

I feel very bad everyone is picking on poor kohlrabi he has some interesting points and is a good debater.

It is all Science if you dont eat enough and start to lose weight or go way below a comfortable body wieght add more cherimoyas then kohlrabis it is easier to eat more cherimoyas then kohlrabis


Love Peace and Happiness,
Cherimoya

First, I think that whoever started this post is already getting enough protein (are you still there?) because of the foods listed in his/her post. There is probably some other reason for the lack of energy.

About science, I think science is capable of determining how many grams of protein are in a food, but not necessarily capable of determining how much protein we actually need. This means that one food can scientifically and accurately be compared to another to see which food has the most protein, but no scientist can tell us exactly how much protein we really need.

I think everybody on this thread, no matter what their specific diet, agrees that a person CAN get sufficient protein on a raw food diet. So far, I haven't yet read one single post debating that view.

Personally I agree with Kohlrabi that fruit and lettuce are not high in protein, when compared with nuts and seeds.

Most, if not all certified nutritionists, would concur.

For those who don't fully trust nutritionists, or if you don't trust them at all, that's OK. Most of us don't spend much time looking at the charts anyway.

But if you disagree with the nutritionists, it doesn't make sense to cite THEIR charts to make your point, especially when the charts were specifically designed by the nutritionests to try to explain THEIR findings.

There might be plenty of reasons to eat veggies, but needing more protein is not one of them. I think that's all Kohlrabi is saying here.

(Hope that hasn't offended anyone, it's kind of late)

Love, Ally



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2006 09:10AM by Ally.

rawgosia Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> kohlabri, throwing wrong/hostile statements in my
> direction does not help your argument.

Oh my god, this is the weakest comeboack I've ever seen in
my entire life.

Why won't you anwser why you didn't know that 1.2 grams out of
100 is 1.2%?

Why won't you answer my questions about not reading the tables
that both you and I quoted? Maybe it's because you know you
didn't, but you still want to find some way to "save face."
These people's health is more important than your face.


> I do not feel threatened. Perhaps you are saying
> this, because you are? Those who you call
> fruitarians, do not try to get anything out of
> anything. They simply live and enjoy their lives.
> Feeding oneself can be effortless.

That sounds nice, but then why do you keep trying turn my
statements about the protein in vegetables, into an attack
on raw veganism as a whole? I'll tell you why: it's because
your diet is larlgey fruitarian, and for *you* it's an attack
on the largest part of your diet. So you see it as an attack
on raw veganism as whole, which it isn't.


>
> "That's none of your business."
> Well, in your opinion may be. In my opinion
> however, I am free to share with others and you
> have no right to stop me from doing so. I love
> sharing my experience with others, and give back
> what I've been given. Pitty that you have to feel
> threatened by that.

Now you are being a manipulative jerk. What happened to the
simply living and enjoying your life thing you were
spouting about one paragraph ago? Gosh, I'm sooo
impressed with the loving kindness that a fruitarian
diet imparts. Not.

What I meant was, me getting in though with my body is none
of your business.

You can share all you want. If you put forth something
that is misleading that affects people's health, I can also
say something about it, and I will.



> No, you have not understood me at all. Eating
> foods that one thinks that they should eat rather
> than eating raw foods that they love, could lead
> to deficiencies because of the denial of the signs
> that body gives when one needs some type of
> nutrient.


yes, exactly, like the original poster being told to eat
more veggies when that is not likely to be the problem. But
heaven forbid, you should tell her something that might actually
be geared to her needs rather than your beliefs.


> Listening to one’s body is something that raw
> foodists learn gradually, and this can take some
> time. During this process, it is important to keep
> experimenting with foods that we think we might
> not like, or we will have no chance to find out
> that we actually do. Thankfully, as we progress in
> our raw, we learn how to do it eventually. Even
> progressing to food combining rules and
> mono-eating can happen spontaneously (it did in my
> case, for example). The key is to be open to
> change, and make gradual improvements as we learn
> through our experiences. Understanding this makes
> the journey so much easier, not only for those new
> to raw.

That's nice. Again, you are trying to make my statements
aobut the protein in vegetables to be something more.
>
> "Conclusion: If you are a scientist, you're acting
> like you put it all behind you, but you still want
> the authority."

> Wrong conclusion. I don't care about authority at
> all. I care about others and share with them what
> I have learned. Authority has nothing to do with
> it. I mentioned that I am a scientist to highlight
> the fact that my approach to diet has been the
> result of me being able to go beyond my analytical
> mind, rather than the result of lack of it.


As I said, you left your mind behind. There are areas of life
where it *is* beneficial to "go beyond the analytical mind,"
but looking at nutrition chartts is not one of them. And you,
meaning anyone tryong to do this, do have to be more educated about
nutrition to be a successful vegetarian or vegan, of any kind.


> As I said, I am sharing my views with others. As
> it happens, they may differ from yours. Don’t
> assume that I am addressing specifically you, each
> time I open my mouth.

You seem to really be getting confused. When you said those
things, you _were_ answering me specifically, and you have
frequently tried to make it be about something more than just
me making statements about the protein in vegetables. I have
already gone into why I think you do that. It's better to
focus on giving an accurate or real reply, rather than
grandstanding for the audience.

> “You hardly announced to the original poster that
> you are a "mostly" fruitarian. I figured it out by
> looking at your web site.”
> I do not have to announce that at all, even if I
> had defined myself to be one. In my view, your
> suggestion of me having to do it is totally
> ridiculous. You have no right to demand that I
> classify myself to be ‘mostly “fruitarian”’ and/or
> say specifically this when I talk to people on
> this board. Read the board rules. By the way, as
> you have noticed, I provide a link to my website,
> where people can read about my raw journey. So I
> am transparent about who I am.

That's ok, I already rebutted your statement to any
potential newbies out there.

Ally Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> First, I think that whoever started this post is
> already getting enough protein (are you still
> there?) because of the foods listed in his/her
> post. There is probably some other reason for the
> lack of energy.

The problem could have been the egg yolk. Raw egg
yolk has something in it that prevents absorbtion of
biotin. But she was advised to eat more veggies.

> There might be plenty of reasons to eat veggies,
> but needing more protein is not one of them. I
> think that's all Kohlrabi is saying here.

That' right, and cetain people keep trying to make it
be more than that, because they lean more to the
fruitarian side, so they interpret it as an attack
on their entire diet. Never mind that most of the people
here eat in a more balanced manner. They interpret it as
an attack on raw veganism a whole.

>I think the scientific method is pretty awesome, when used properly, to improve the >quality of our lives... but, it is, as I mentioned earlier, not the same as actual >understanding. You are using what seems to me to be the most current scientific >findings (evidence) in the field of nutrition, which is laudable... however, you >are also misleading people by discrediting those that share the ideas of >fruitarianism, and other related ideas given in this thread, as though the >statistics you have provided are somehow infallible, which they are not.

Thomas, let me just address this one part now:

I am not misleading, I am just tearing my hair out over why people don't get
the first grade level concept of 1.2 grams being 1.2 percent of 100 grams.
The problem with looking at protein in terms of calories has already been explained.

I hate to say this, because I will make myself even more unpopular, but Thomas,
when I saw that everything I've been trying to say had to be dumbed
down to the level of a "mr. peanut and mr. lettuce" story, for people
(inlcuding you), to be able to get it, I was dumbfounded. I cringed to the
deepest level of my being.

The reason I have a problem with the two "mostly" fruitarians who have posted on this thread can be seen in my recent reply to rawgosia.

Fruitarianism is based on a wrong concept and a misunderstanding of
antrhopology. It is unbalanced and unhealthy. That is my opinion.
But as I said, the human mind has a strong tendency to over-ride the
signals the body gives it, and that often happens in fruitarianism I
am sure.

I am not keeping anybody from finding out more about it if they want to.
I have enough trouble trying to get people to understand that I am only
arguing that green vegetables don't have as much protein in them as
some "mostly" fruitarians would like you (meaning anybody reading this)
to think they do.

I understood that 1.2/100 is 1.2% before Ally posted, I was simply thanking her for her attempts to be explicit and explain what was being said. I don't dislike you at all for what you've said, nor do I necessarily disagree with everything you've said. I pointed out, more or less, what I disagreed with, most of which was stuff relating to the foundation of your argument, and not necessarily all of the content contained within it.

I'm sorry that you felt so much, I don't know, "agony", because people perhaps didn't understand what you were saying. I hope that one day you do not suffer because of such things.

"The problem could have been the egg yolk. Raw egg yolk has something in it that prevents absorbtion of biotin."

Ah. That must be a typo. What works against biotin, found in the yolk itself, is the egg *white* (the clear stuff).

BoraBora LoveJoy
a visiting goddess

kohlrabi_Croce Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> You don't understand the term "theory" as used by
> science.
> In scientific usage, a theory does not mean an
> unsubstantiated
> guess or hunch, as it often does in other
> contexts. A theory
> is a logically self-consistent model or framework
> for describing
> the behavior of a related set of natural or social
> phenomena. It
> originates from and/or is supported by
> experimental evidence.
>
> That last sentence means it's based on FACTS.


do you really believe that scientific theories are logical or consistent?

do you believe that experimental evidence is not affected by the views of those performing the experiments, or by those funding them?

scientific journals are filled with papers that contradict each other. Quite often, no sooner has research been published than some other research appears in opposition.

>>
> Yes, but a raw vegan, "technically," who only
> eats
> something non-fruit every other day, in very
> small
> amounts, is a wannabe fruitarian who just can't
> bring
> him or her self to go all the way because they
> know
> deep down that they need more, could still feel
> threatened by people pointing out that 2 leaves
> of
> lettuce don't really have very much protein at
> all.
>

it's interesting that you seem to believe that you can read the innermost thoughts of the people who post here... why would you think that these people have a secret desire to be a fruitarian? Maybe they simply like to eat a diet high in fruit, with other stuff included as well... no 'closet fruitarian' fantasies...
You seem to be big on objective facts... show me your research (;

Hi Mr. Croce, the science devotee.
After reading your biotin/yolk typo I was left wondering how many other (involuntary or otherwise) "typos" may be there in all the stuff you have been shoveling down our throats.

BoraBora LoveJoy
a visiting goddess

I think Kohlrabi is a "Miss", but I may be wrong.

Kohlabri, the is the worst case of misunderstanding I’ve ever seen on raw boards. Let me explain. I will attempt to be as explicit and detailed as I can.
-------------------------------------------------------

“> kohlabri, throwing wrong/hostile statements in my
> direction does not help your argument.
Oh my god, this is the weakest comeboack I've ever seen in
my entire life.”
A hostile, irrelevant, very weak point that does not help you argument.

”Why won't you anwser why you didn't know that 1.2 grams out of
100 is 1.2%?”
You answer contains a wrong assumption.

”Why won't you answer my questions about not reading the tables
that both you and I quoted? Maybe it's because you know you
didn't, but you still want to find some way to "save face."
These people's health is more important than your face.”
I don’t feel the need to answer all your questions, especially those that I find irrelevant, poorly set up or containing wrong assumptions.


”> I do not feel threatened. Perhaps you are saying
> this, because you are? Those who you call
> fruitarians, do not try to get anything out of
> anything. They simply live and enjoy their lives.
> Feeding oneself can be effortless.

That sounds nice, but then why do you keep trying turn my
statements about the protein in vegetables, into an attack
on raw veganism as a whole? I'll tell you why: it's because
your diet is larlgey fruitarian, and for *you* it's an attack
on the largest part of your diet. So you see it as an attack
on raw veganism as whole, which it isn't.”
I am not trying to turn your statements into anything at all. I do not feel attacked. I feel comfortable where I am. The reason I am here is to share with others and empower them by encouraging their confidence in their own abilities. I am here to say that no raw foodist needs to worry about protein deficiency, because raw food diet, including and especially the diet with minimal amount of nuts/seeds, has enough.


”> "That's none of your business."
> Well, in your opinion may be. In my opinion
> however, I am free to share with others and you
> have no right to stop me from doing so. I love
> sharing my experience with others, and give back
> what I've been given. Pitty that you have to feel
> threatened by that.

Now you are being a manipulative jerk. What happened to the
simply living and enjoying your life thing you were
spouting about one paragraph ago? Gosh, I'm sooo
impressed with the loving kindness that a fruitarian
diet imparts. Not.”
Another hostile and rude point that adds nothing to your argument, but only highlights your weaknesses.

”What I meant was, me getting in though with my body is none
of your business.”
This sentence is based on a wrong assumption.

”You can share all you want. If you put forth something
that is misleading that affects people's health, I can also
say something about it, and I will.”
Feel free. I would like to encourage you to do it in a logical and polite manner.

”> No, you have not understood me at all. Eating
> foods that one thinks that they should eat rather
> than eating raw foods that they love, could lead
> to deficiencies because of the denial of the signs
> that body gives when one needs some type of
> nutrient.

yes, exactly, like the original poster being told to eat
more veggies when that is not likely to be the problem. But
heaven forbid, you should tell her something that might actually
be geared to her needs rather than your beliefs.”
This again is based on wrong assumptions. And, on a wrong argument, in which it is assumed that the original poster actually suffers from the lack of protein, and that eating nuts/seeds is going to fix it.

”> Listening to one’s body is something that raw
> foodists learn gradually, and this can take some
> time. During this process, it is important to keep
> experimenting with foods that we think we might
> not like, or we will have no chance to find out
> that we actually do. Thankfully, as we progress in
> our raw, we learn how to do it eventually. Even
> progressing to food combining rules and
> mono-eating can happen spontaneously (it did in my
> case, for example). The key is to be open to
> change, and make gradual improvements as we learn
> through our experiences. Understanding this makes
> the journey so much easier, not only for those new
> to raw.

That's nice. Again, you are trying to make my statements
aobut the protein in vegetables to be something more.”
No, I am explaining in a little more detail to a person (including other than you) that might be reading this what I mean by listening to one’s body.

”> "Conclusion: If you are a scientist, you're acting
> like you put it all behind you, but you still want
> the authority."

> Wrong conclusion. I don't care about authority at
> all. I care about others and share with them what
> I have learned. Authority has nothing to do with
> it. I mentioned that I am a scientist to highlight
> the fact that my approach to diet has been the
> result of me being able to go beyond my analytical
> mind, rather than the result of lack of it.


As I said, you left your mind behind. There are areas of life
where it *is* beneficial to "go beyond the analytical mind,"
but looking at nutrition chartts is not one of them. And you,
meaning anyone tryong to do this, do have to be more educated about
nutrition to be a successful vegetarian or vegan, of any kind.”
You are misquoting me here, because you do not understand what I am saying. I did not say that I left my mind behind. It is still very much with me. I said that I was able to go beyond, which means to move forward, beyond preconceived ideas that I might have had, which were based on stereotypes such as standard daily requirements, for example. In fact, thanks to my highly analytical mind, I was able to make progress, and move to a more advanced and effortless at the same time level, in which the core idea is that my body is able to guide me. Note that all innovative ideas start by overcoming stereotypes rooted in one’s mind, due to up-bringing, education etc.


”> As I said, I am sharing my views with others. As
> it happens, they may differ from yours. Don’t
> assume that I am addressing specifically you, each
> time I open my mouth.

You seem to really be getting confused. When you said those
things, you _were_ answering me specifically, and you have
frequently tried to make it be about something more than just
me making statements about the protein in vegetables. I have
already gone into why I think you do that. It's better to
focus on giving an accurate or real reply, rather than
grandstanding for the audience.”
I am not confused at all, I am very clear. What I am saying seems confusing to you because you do not understand me. When I am talking to you, I consider the fact that others are reading. You are wrong about my motives. As I said I care about others and want to give back. My intention is to empower others. You seem not to be able to accept that one can have altruistic motives, and tend to assume that there must be a sinister reason, such as wanting the authority. People tend to reflect onto others their qualities. Perhaps this is what you are doing here.

Now, how about instead of going over and over the same points, you could give the real substance to your argument and provide the following:

1) Proof (in a rigorous, scientific sense) that it is a necessary condition for a raw foodists to know charts or what amino acids are, in order for them not to become protein deficient.

2) Proof that fruit-based raw diet causes protein deficiency.

I know that it is an impossible task, because many counter-examples that disprove such claims are well-known. (Those who know logic, know that to disprove a claim, it is sufficient to give one counter-example) So maybe I am asking too much. I wonder though: Do you disagree?

Note that it is not enough to quote data from charts etc to prove a claim. One needs to provide a connective link that indeed proves the conclusion.

Gosia


RawGosia channel
RawGosia streams



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2006 10:57PM by rawgosia.

For those interested, some sensible points on the topic of protein:
[www.rawfoodtalk.com]

Gosia.


RawGosia channel
RawGosia streams



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2006 11:40PM by rawgosia.

Thanks for that tip, TL.
So I'm editing my poem now.

hello miss cro-ce
the science devotee
where is your protein?
in hemp, in mangosteen?
don't scold us too hard, though
stress leads to death, you know

BoraBora LoveJoy
a visiting goddess

Here are two great articles on the subject:

[www.vegsource.com]

[www.passionatevegetarian.com]

(From the National Academy of Sciences
Recommended Dietary Allowances "9th ed. 1980)

Requirement of Essential Amino Acids (per kg body wt) mg/day.
Amino Acid Required/ Infant 4-6 mos/ Child 10-12 yr/ Adult


Histidine/ 33/ ?/ ?
Isoleucine/ 83/ 28/ 12
Leucine/ 135/ 42/ 16
Lysine/ 99/ 44/ 12
Methionine & Cystine/ 49/ 22/ 10
Phenylalanine & tyrosine/ 141/ 22/ 16
Threonine/ 68/ 28/ 8
Tryptophan/ 21/ 4/ 3
Valine/ 92/ 25/ 14

Source: [waltonfeed.com]



The USDA Nutrient Values site is a very simple search engine were you can type in the name of almost every food on earth (!) and you'll get to know exactly how much of every essential amino acid there is in 100 grams and how much that is of RDA for men and women. Here:

The USDA Nutrient Values

For fun I looked up what 100 grams of lettuce (iceberg) containes:

Amino Acid/ Grams/ RDA Men/ RDA Women

Histidine/ Gms : 0.020/ 2.1%/ 2.6%
Isoleucine/ Gms : 0.075/ 9.5%/ 11.9%
Leucine/ Gms : 0.070/ 6.3%/ 8.0%
Lysine/ Gms : 0.075/ 7.9%/ 9.9%
Methionine+Cystine/ Gms : 0.028/ 2.7%/ 3.4%
Phenylalanine+Tyrosine/ Gms : 0.078/ 7.0%/ 8.9%
Threonine/ Gms : 0.053/ 9.6%/ 6.0%
Tryptophan/ Gms : 0.008/ 2.9%/ 3.6%
Valine/ Gms : 0.062/ 7.8%/ 9.8%

This means 500 g lettuce contains 10.5% of Histidine, the least occuring amino acid in lettuce. Add 100 g of hard red winter wheat berries and your up to 40% of RDA. In addition, 300 g of mung beans sprouts together with this will give you 62% of RDA. Continue adding the food you eat daily this way and see if you make it to 100% with all 8.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/18/2006 09:55PM by Brand new heart.

Well first of all some people thrive on carbohydrates, those are the people that can do this diet

Some people thrive on protein and fat which are the people that can do the atkins diet.

And some are in between,

If your a protein/fat type you should'nt eat bad food like me i am i eat raw brewers yeast, eggs cheese, milk, grass-fed beef, nuts, yogurts.

but if your a carb type going on atkins diet you'll be tired all the time and vica-versa.

Anyways Carbs are not necessary to human life, but protein and fat are but depends on your metabolic type to see how much of each you need

Do there seem to be some posts missing from this thread? Or do I have two threads confused?

Rawgosia, are you there? I thought somewhere on this thread you wrote some very kind words to me about my sharing with you about the vertigo I had experienced. Is that somewhere on another thread? Or is it on this thread, but I just couldn't find it?

Love, -Ally



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2006 12:21AM by Ally.

Ally, I remember another thread about protein in fruit (started by kohlrabi_Croce), in which you are explaining to others how to read charts. Or, maybe you are thinking about some other thread. I've been writing recenlty too much, I don't remember it all lol!

Warm regards,
Gosia


RawGosia channel
RawGosia streams

Thanks rawgosia,

You're right. It was called, "and now for the protein in fruit". I forgot about that one!

Warm regards to you too! -Ally

PS: I've been enjoying your website.

As long as you are getting enough calories, you are getting enough protein. There has been plenty of research showing that this is true. There is no need to worry.


Take care,

Audrey
www.rawhealing.com

ya maybe enough protein but not enough fat, you need fats like butter because it contains vitamins not found in varbs like vitamin A also vitamin D in milk.
Cholesterol is vital to human life without it you can die. Hence why Mother's milk is so necessary to life as well as much fat as a kid. it creates hormones and helps build muscle and lose fat respectively.
There has never in life a malnourishment called carb-deficent. while there is something called protein-deficientcy.
Although some people need less/more protein than others.

"This creates a terrible paradox: people are eating less fat and getting fatter!There is but one alarming conclusion to reach: a high-carbohydrate, low-fat diet may be dangerous to your health. Overeating carbohydrate foods can prevent a higher percentage of fats from being used for energy, and lead to a decrease in endurance and an increase in fat storage. Eating fat does not make you fat. It's your body's response to excess carbohydrates in your diet that makes you fat. Your body has a limited capacity to store excess carbohydrates, but it can easily convert those excess carbohydrates into excess body fat. "


"Many people become vegetarians because they believe that such a lifestyle is healthier, particularly in terms of heart disease and cancer. They believe that an intake of meat, and particularly animal fat, will shorten their lives"

"similar study of Mormons in Utah, who eat a considerable amount of meat, found similar low levels of the disease. In fact, the diet of both communities had little or no impact on their incidences of heart disease; the incidences of the disease is low because they are both close-knit and supportive communities, a situation which is known to be protective as far as such diseases are concerned. Comparisons of the health and longevity of cultures with different dietary habits confirms that meat eaters, such as Eskimos, Nagas and Maasai, can expect to live twice as long as primitive vegetarians.

In Kenya two tribes, the Maasai and the Kikuyu, live in the same country, the same climate, the same political system and the same environment. The Maasai, when wholly carnivorous, drinking only the blood and milk of their cattle, were tall, healthy, long-lived and slim.
The Kikuyu, when wholly vegetarian, were stunted, diseased, short-lived and pot-bellied.
Over the last few decades, the Kikuyu have started to eat meat - and their health has improved. Since 1960 the Maasai diet has also changed, but in the opposite direction. They are now eating less blood, milk and meat, replacing it with maize and beans. Their health has deteriorated


[www.mercola.com]

E3 Live Blue-green algae

I believe it's a complete food - in any case, I've found it to DEFINITELY have plenty of protein, while wheatgrass, not quite as much - as evidenced by my gym workouts. So far E3 Live is the only thing I've found to dramatically satisfy my protein cravings after the gym. Mixed greens work, also, but I find I still need a powerful protein source a couple times a day, in addition to the salads (but that's only after gym workouts, otherwise I'm fine on just vegetables).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2006 07:24PM by sunshine79.

jdc5390 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well first of all some people thrive on
> carbohydrates, those are the people that can do
> this diet
>
> Some people thrive on protein and fat which are
> the people that can do the atkins diet.
>
> And some are in between,
>
> If your a protein/fat type you should'nt eat bad
> food like me i am i eat raw brewers yeast, eggs
> cheese, milk, grass-fed beef, nuts, yogurts.
>
> but if your a carb type going on atkins diet
> you'll be tired all the time and vica-versa.
>
> Anyways Carbs are not necessary to human life, but
> protein and fat are but depends on your metabolic
> type to see how much of each you need



This is absolutely not true and if you still think this way, then you shouldn't even be posting on this board. I'm sure many people here at one time thought the above statements were true (myself included) - but after much reading, research, and self-experimentation - realized the falseness of it.

I speak from personal experience here, as I'm not a carb person, but a protein-and-fat person. The raw food diet works for both, but the key is the proportions. If you're a carb person, you'll eat a lot of sweet fruit; if you're an "Atkins" person, you'll eat more vegetables, greens, and nuts.

The Kikuyu are the most populous tribe in Kenya, there are approximately 7.4 million of them. The Maasai population is some where between 250,000 and 500,000, although some estimates put it at much lower. Seems the Kikuyu are very successful when compared to the Massai.