Hi Everyone,

I have been vegan for over 20 years and did this out of compassion for animals and moral reasons.I started with raw over 15 years ago to become more healthy not just look younger. However now I am questioning if 100% raw is healthy for a longterm diet as opposed to just eating some raw. When I was at the Raw Spirit Fest I noticed that most of the longterm 100% Raw Foodist looked very unhealthy to me and Vicktoras's wife died of colon cancer while he was lecturing people about health at the Festival.I also met some people that told me they were very sick on raw vegan so they are eating raw meat which to me seems very unhealthy.My girlfriend loses lots of hair and muscle mass and as dental problems when going 100% raw and when she eats some cooked beans and grains she feels much healthier.

It seems hypocritical to claim the raw food diet is the path to health when people doing it longterm are not so healthy.I am asking this question out of geniune concern for people's health.

That's like finding a vegan who is unhealthy and saying that veganism is therefore unhealthy. I don't think it's the diet/lifestyle in general. veganism and raw foodism CAN be healthy long-term. Just depends on the individual and how they choose to eat.

[utopiankitchen.wordpress.com]

Raw food is just a tool. A hammer is not unhealthy...but certainly CAN be in the wrong hands. Some people have the idea that humans are all the same 'machine' that will all respond to the same things. I just don't agree.

-I am not disagreeing with what you observed. I was at RawSpiritFest....and have met several long-term raw food people...and I saw lots of healthy long-term all-raw people. I see one in the mirror every morning I wake up! LOL.

-In any event...focus on what works for you. Read through the hype.....and take what works for you. You can't judge some one else.....what their goals are......and what's right for THEM to get them there. You can only support them.

-Its not hypocritical for people to proclaim what is working for THEM - and share their experiences. If they are somehow claiming everyone MUST do what they are doing...I mean.....Come One! You can spot those fellas/ladies and dismiss them.......whether it's in politics...religion.....OR raw food! Ha! ha!

My own experience is that I've been all raw for many years now... (perhaps 8).....fruit for the past few years.....and am the happiest, healthiest guy I know.

-David Z. Mason

WWW.RawFoodFarm.com



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2008 08:55PM by davidzanemason.

As I mentioned I went vegan for moral reasons not health reason and I am 100% raw. I have been very commited to the raw food movement but I am wondering longterm "meaning for a lifetime" if it is a healthy choice like the raw food experts claim or will I eventually suffer with health problems from my diet. Being raw for a few years is very different from eating that way for many years.After seeing all the longterm raw foodist lecture at the Raw Spirit Fest and hearing that Vicktoras's wife died of colon cancer I am considering eating some cooked food again. My girlfriend recently started eating beans and grains for more protein and feels alot better and her hair is not falling out anymore.My vegan commitment I will stick with out of compassion for animals so I would not consider eating raw meat just to stay raw but I want to eat the healthiest vegan diet that I can.I am very balanced and educated about raw foods and have taken other longterm raw foodists advice but now I am questioning is this a healthy path for life?

Maybe it's best if you eat legumes then.

That doesn't mean that Viktoria passed away and got colon cancer due to being raw; you don't know what would have happened, if she would have died SOONER if she were an omnivore or cooked food vegan. How many vegans die of cancer? You can't always attribute things to diet; it's genetics and lifestyle as well.

If you feel better eating cooked food, then do so. Everyone's experiences are probably different. It's okay to be different!

[utopiankitchen.wordpress.com]

i view it like this: basically we are all a bunch of guinea pigs experimenting on ourselves! there are no modern societies that have been thriving on this diet for centuries to look to, or large groups of long term rawfoodists who have been studied. to me, that is one of the cool things about it, i really enjoy checking all of this stuff out for myself, and seeing what works for me, and dismissing what does not. all i know for sure is that i personally feel the healthiest and clearest i have ever felt eating raw. if i were suffering some of the symptoms your girlfriend is experiencing, i would seek to address them, and that would include exploring all of my dietary choices. no need to feel like crap and have all your hair fall out seeking some raw ideal!

NO diet guarantees everyone who undertakes it longevity or freedom from disease. we are all too different from each other for that, in terms of genetic makeup, toxic exposure, and emotional makeup too -- which has a big bearing. the truth is, no matter what you do, the body is NOT GOING TO MAKE IT! lol. so everything we do should be about more then that. i don't want to live forever necessarily, i just want to feel happy and healthy while i am alive. this diet is giving me my best self today. if it were ever to stop doing that, i would look at all of my options and try to make the best choices for me.

good luck!

-quote:
"I have been very committed to the raw food movement but I am wondering longterm "meaning for a lifetime" if it is a healthy choice like the raw food experts claim or will I eventually suffer with health problems from my diet."
-end quote

No one can answer that question for you unfortunately. Eating is only a piece of the puzzle. Your history is another. If we knew the "perfect" diet everyone would do it. But, there are just too many so called variables, even from one raw foodist to another. Do your best, and as mentioned, follow what works for you. If you choose to eat cooked food, ask yourself why first. If you choose to stay raw, ask yourself why also. But do it because you feel right about it, not what you see as someone elses end result or their current state :O)

Another thought to consider - I imagine alot of those raw foodists have come from a time that the information we have now was not widely known either. There was no 80-10-10 for example, to consider as well as exercise being focused on more these days too. Times have changed as they say.

I hear you. If YOU think eating raw is right for you....after YOUR best research and examination....don't let some one else's example talk you out of it. You DON'T know what is going on in Vicktoras's wife's secret heart. What HER goals are...and HER challenges. Disease is not the consequences of failure....but a story that tells a lesson that we may not hear any other way. Perhaps seeing people with disease is there to teach YOU (or ME!) some lesson - yes?

-The hidden ingredient of any diet is one of CONSCIOUS CHOICE. It is these types of peaceful and 'done-deal' choices that you make....which will fill your life with passion...and energize everything about it. It will lead YOU to the fuel that is right for you and your dreams. Move through doubt, and fear....into that high-speed lane....and push the petal down man.

-This is why some raw food people die of colon cancer....while some smokers live to be 100. One can punish themselves with good things...while the other can be truly passionate and present with so-called 'unhealthy' or 'evil' things. You know?

-Just my thoughts.

-David Z. Mason

WWW.RawFoodFarm.com

I know for a fact that there are people who say they are 100% raw who are not. I know there are people who say they are fruitarian and they eat vegetables, seeds, and nuts. (No one in this thread. Yet.)

I know some people look like crap and they are truly 100% raw. But, I don't know what they looked like before their raw journey began. And, I don't know what they would look like had they not found this lifestyle.

I'm going to keep doing what works for me. I don't embrace any particular label. That way, if I need to change what I eat, I don't have to hide what I am eating. Anyone who claims to be 100% raw should be able to tell you what they eat and not get defensive or angry about it or make it some kind of insult that you asked... (THAT is something I have seen on this board, not in this thread. Yet.)

If I stay 100% raw, I don't know if that will heal me of all the toxins I have been exposed to (physical, mental, spiritual). I heard on the news the other day that every single body of water on earth has traces of industrial pollution. EVERY. So, after a lifetime of showering in and drinking polluted water, after a lifetime of breathing polluted air, after a lifetime of all the crap I have been through... Will raw cure it all? I don't know.

I'm going to keep doing this for as long as it works.

I respect the work of Dr. Doug Graham because it is based on sound solid scientific evidence. Here, on this board, Bryan and Arugala (sp?) both have a lot of grounding in experience and nutritional understanding.

For me, for now, I'm trying to keep as close to 80/10/10 as I can. If I feel like I need to change that, I will.

Read as much as you can without going on overload. Beware of hucksters who want you to worship their rawness. And eat what you need to eat.

My .02 and then some.


Lee

I am not implying that Vicktoras's wife Youkta got colon cancer just from being raw.However I am concerned because he has been one of the biggest experts in the raw food movement and they have been raw for almost 30 years. I would think genetics would affect a woman with breast or ovarian cancer but colon cancer seems more determined by diet than anything else.I have been vegan for 20 years and raw over 15 so I have been following the longterm raw foodist diets and advice for many years and always thought of this as a healthy diet for life.Now after seeing not one but just about all the longterm raw foodist look unhealthy who have written books and proclaimed this to be the path to health and longevity I am wondering if it is true for a lifelong commitment.It is very hard once you have been raw for so long to go back to eating differently but I am considering this option for my longterm health.Are there others out there who have been 100% for a long time and gone back to eating some cooked food, if so do you feel healthier?

Maybe you should ask - What are you looking to gain from "some" cooked food. What does it hold that will help ensure better long term health for you or anyone??

Also consider Vicktoras has had a very, very colored past and experimented to a large degree and was a guinea pig for many of us :O)

No one can say definitively what will and will not work for every single person. If you or your significant other feels better by adding some cooked vegan food there is nothing wrong with that. Theres no competition to be 100% forever and you are the only person who will know what is right or wrong in terms of your health.



My website: The Coconut Chronicles

We don't know HOW she got colon cancer. Maybe she would have died sooner if she were not raw. What does being raw have to do with it? No one is promising immortality.

I'm eating this way because it makes me feel much better. (Plus, I've lost 35 pounds of fat and have the energy to exercise.) Eating SAD foods made me feel like bad. If eating rocks make you feel good, go for it. You can have my share.

You may want to check out Doug Graham's forums on foodnsport.com too. He sometimes responds to questions and concerns there. I find his work to be refreshingly grounded in scientific principles.

Back to colon cancer... Age is considered the leading cause of colon cancer. Other factors besides diet: genetic predisposition, history of colitis or Crohns, ethnicity (Jews have a higher rate of colon cancer), history of other cancers, exposure to radiation or asbestos or some manufactured disinfectants, exposure to some pesticides, genetic predisposition to diabetes...

I'm sure Victoras is grief stricken. Early diagnosis is the key to curing cancer either through diet and lifestyle or pharmaceuticals. If you don't know you are sick, you can't address what is out of balance. Sometimes it's just too late.

I hope this helps.


Lee



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2008 10:53PM by Lee_123.

veganforlife,


Listen to your body. If you are concerned, perhaps try something else for a while and see if it helps. If your feel yourself wanting cooked legumes, by all means eat some and see how it works.
On a separate note...Have you ever tried raw meat? It's really quite different then you'd ever expect. quite exquisite, and probably has had more of a positive impact on my life then any other foods I eat.

Precisely. I feel that you will find the path that is right for YOU....and run full steam ahead. Now...you might perhaps be stopping to look at the scenery. Whether it would be better if you ran for a while on another road....and if the scenery would be better. So be it. As time goes on....you may find that its all about the quality of your running.....and less about the road. Anyone can fall....but not everyone can love to run. And no one can give it to you either. But you can find that door within yourself...and open it.....and leave it open for anyone that wishes to follow you.

-David Z. Mason

WWW.RawFoodFarm.com

svakanda Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> veganforlife,
>
>
> Listen to your body. If you are concerned,
> perhaps try something else for a while and see if
> it helps. If your feel yourself wanting cooked
> legumes, by all means eat some and see how it
> works.
> On a separate note...Have you ever tried raw meat?
> It's really quite different then you'd ever
> expect. quite exquisite, and probably has had
> more of a positive impact on my life then any
> other foods I eat.


I don't think pro-meat (or any other cruel product) posts are really embraced here, since this is a vegan forum....

I found one answer at least to why some people are unhealthy on raw - it'll be a really long post but the short answer is magnesium. I learned that magnesium is the most important mineral to humans. It is found primarily in dark leafy greens, beans, nuts, seeds, and whole grains (and chocolate). For the past year of my raw food diet I wasn't eating a whole lot of those foods, as I suspect many raw foodists don't. I ended up developing heart problems which went away when I started eating those foods again. I also discovered the amazing power of magnesium to give me that awesome light, clear raw food feeling even when I ate heavier foods. Magnesium drives cellular energy.

Mild tiredness or depression is the first sign of magnesium deficiency - other symptoms include irritability, cramps, anxiety, panic attacks, teeth problems, and a whole list of other things. Heart problems indicate a serious deficiency.

I also discovered that despite all the writing about how hard it is to overdose on magnesium, I found it actually quite easy once I started taking a magnesium supplement. And an overdose really sucks, it's so uncomfortable.

Wheatgrass juice is my best way to get magnesium.

.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2008 12:35AM by entex.

You won't do well in the long term if you develop a deficiency (any deficiency) and that includes all the vitamins, minerals, essential aminos and fatty acids, sugars, and calories in general.

It's easy to miss something if you are completely sold on the idea that all you have to do is not cook your food and perfection will result. It doesn't. Hopefully our bodies guide us in the right direction most of the time but look at the obesity epidemic: clearly they don't, for many people.

I feel it's worth tracking mineral intakes for a while, learning which foods are good sources, and most of all, the simplest thing really: eating ENOUGH. Lately I myself have been guilty of not eating enough and I feel lethargic.

Generally a raw vegan diet will be highest in protective phytochemicals, soluble fibers, most vitamins, and lowest in glycotoxins, methionine (assuming that the basic requirement is met) and oxidation products. This is all very good.

=> rates of cancer will be lower. But this is not the same as no cancer ever. Even wild animals on lifetime totally raw diets get cancers. But most of them die young from other causes before they can get the chance to develop cancers.

Arugala,

You always have such amazingly thorough information. What is the danger with high methionine intake? It was recommended once that I take L-methionine as a supplement.

Thanks

Aloha Nui Loa,

Greg

A great many people think they are thinking when they are really rearranging their prejudices. - William James

There is no pill that can be swallowed,
There is no guru, that can be followed, - Michael Franti (Pray For Grace)

The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion. - Albert Camus

Thanks. It's not so much of a danger to get too much as it is probably better to aim for just enough. Lab animals that are restricted in methionine live longer and get fewer cancers. In a pilot study it even slows the progression of cancers in humans. One mechanism is thought to be reduced stress in the mitochondira. The latest thinking is that it is more important to avoid bad stuff than to take in good stuff (one reason why taking pills will not substitute for eating poorly).

Here is a sampler:
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]


We don't really know how best to apply it to ourselves. The different amino acid recs for recommended intakes are all over the place.

Cysteine and methionine are the only amino acids that contain sulfur and because of this they are both easily oxidized. Some cysteine (about 35% I think) can sub for methionine and the requirement for both is usually combined. They range from 13 mg/kg/day to 17 mg/kg/day (kg of body weight) depending on the source (Food Board, FAO/WHO, and Vernon Young's revised ray tracer studies). For now it is probably prudent to meet, but not significantly exceed this range.

I can see certain very restictive diets (all sweet fruit, for example) failing to provide enough methionine for normal metabolic processes and that would be a bad thing, too. Get enough. But don't get too much!

Once again....awesome info Arugala! I'm so glad you're here.

Aloha Nui Loa,

Greg

A great many people think they are thinking when they are really rearranging their prejudices. - William James

There is no pill that can be swallowed,
There is no guru, that can be followed, - Michael Franti (Pray For Grace)

The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion. - Albert Camus

theres a good bit of magnesium in avocados, theres like 35% in just one and I know some like to limit OVERT fats, I dont think 2 a day is bad when you eat a lot of fruit.just a thought,.
rob

I eat a ton of greens and other fruits/vegetables, but because the calories aren't adding up for those items specifically and I need a good amount of fat, I'm still at 35% of calories from fat.

[utopiankitchen.wordpress.com]

Using the premise that seeing those who eat foods uncooked have serious health problems question the long term wisdom of it could equally be applied to questioning the wisdom of eating foods that are cooked and seeing an even greater amount of health issues i.e. men with stomachs that are 2-3 times as wide as their bodies, cardiovascular problems, ladies having distressful gynegological problems, indigestion and constipation that make store aisles sellilng antacids and laxatives a heavily visited spot, etc.

On the other hand, people promoting the 'as long as it is raw it's okay' philosophy and who commercialize on that premise with products and services they are selling could inadvertently mislead others who are hungry for any and all information on dietary directions to improve their health.

That being said, dietary balance and variety is important. The energetics associated with our emotions is just as crucial if not more important. Spirituality-not necessarily religion-seems for many, including myself, to be an essential compenent in experiencing quality of life. Old emotions of a destructive nature that have been stored and not appropriately resolved can keep festering and could even manifest themselves on a physical plane. Feelings of conflicts, especially related to values and morals can also tear one apart emotionally and also manifest externally with physical symptoms.

If the underlying cause of physical health problems goes beyond the raw or cooked form of the foods, then it is not realistic to expect foods to heal or prevent the manisfestations just because they are raw. After all, we are a multidimension manifestation of a variety of energetic influences and eating healty foods--even organic and unprocessed--is just a small part of the equation.

Wishing you vibrant health

I wanted to note, too, that I think some people on here do not get enough calories. I'm 110 pounds, 5'4, female, active, muscular (okay, I don't weigh myself but around 110), and I eat more than some of the men!

[utopiankitchen.wordpress.com]

Brilliant post Pistachio, That was perfectly said!

Aloha Nui Loa,

Greg

A great many people think they are thinking when they are really rearranging their prejudices. - William James

There is no pill that can be swallowed,
There is no guru, that can be followed, - Michael Franti (Pray For Grace)

The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion. - Albert Camus

"...people promoting the 'as long as it is raw it's okay' philosophy ..."

dude, no joke! i am trying to feed the little man more and more raw (it's tough with school lunches) and he's into it, he's Into It! all i have to do is tell him that something is healthy and he wants to eat it, he's AmAzinG!
but i have to come up with kid friendly dishes and holy moly, the stuff raw people are feeding their kids! it's all raw versions of stuff i would never feed him now! chocolate cake, donuts, cookies, ice cream, etc. sugar sugar and more sugar but that's ok because it's raw. rriiigghhhttt.
*frustruated*.
i need some kid friendly suggestions that aren't dessert.

i had a girl friend years ago who was an ethical vegetarian and who was such an unhealthy person. she ate all kinds of starches and fats, fried this and that, carbs like crazy, coffee and sweets. terrible, terrible diet but she was a vegetarian so people assumed not eating meat was the reason for her ill health.
crazee.

i hear you coco. i wondered too... do i really need to get a dehydrator and make all these crazy desserts and junk-food look alikes to entice my kid to eat raw foods? it seems kind of counterintuitive! so i have just been making her what she wants to eat out of the food available in the house (which i have control over, obviously), taking her shopping suggestions into due consideration, making sure plenty of tempting fruits and vegetables are offered as snacks, and seeing what happens. its not an overnight success story, but i see the seeds i've been planting are starting to sprout. last night to my surprise she helped prepare dinner for her little friend that came over, and she pulled out cucumbers and carrots and tomatoes for me to cut up for them, and then said "we need salad" and took some greens and put them on their plates, and the two of them happily munched their salads with no dressing. then the friend picked up an apple from the bowl in the middle of the table during dinner and started to eat it, and my daughter happily followed suit. i call that progress!

kids are always looking to copy their parents, even when they aren't overtly copying them, too. better to be a happy and successful example, as DZM says.

veganforlife Wrote:
I would think
> genetics would affect a woman with breast or
> ovarian cancer but colon cancer seems more
> determined by diet than anything else.


The way that I understand it is that pretty much everything we experience is a genetic predisposition accompanied by our lifestyle choices. We can overcome much of what is biologiaclly predetermined with the daily choices we make. Sometimes we cannot control every aspect of our environment though. Also, sometimes we cannot overcome our inherited deficits. It is difficult to say which things are more determined by biology and which illnesses have more to do with environment.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2008 09:09AM by azrael.