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I think my search is over!smiling smiley
Posted by: banana who ()
Date: April 17, 2011 08:50PM

I think I'm gonna go with this one: [www.drugstore.com]

I think it's fairly new, which may explain the lack of reviews. I am hoping that the 2HP, 5-year warranty means that it is comparable to the Vitamix. It looks similar to it, also. The Blendtec doesn't look as substantial to me and I read a review which said the same.

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Re: I think my search is over!smiling smiley
Posted by: Wheatgrass Yogi ()
Date: April 17, 2011 09:58PM

banana who Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think I'm gonna go with this one:
Don't do it!! But you never listen to me anyway.
The container of the Omega isn't BPA-free. For only $150 more you can have the Vitamix TurboBlend VS. Shop around and get it for $400. A friend of mine bought one from a dealer in California. I don't remember where.....WY


[secure.vitamix.com]

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Re: I think my search is over!smiling smiley
Posted by: banana who ()
Date: April 17, 2011 10:20PM

Wheatgrass Yogi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> banana who Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I think I'm gonna go with this one:
> Don't do it!! But you never listen to me anyway.
> The container of the Omega isn't BPA-free. For
> only $150 more you can have the Vitamix TurboBlend
> VS. Shop around and get it for $400. A friend of
> mine bought one from a dealer in California. I
> don't remember where.....WY
>
> [secure.vitamix.com]
> rboBlend-VS-with-bonus-Green-Smoothie-Revolution-b
> ook-by-Victoria-Boutenko-P2335C108.aspx?COUPON=06-
> 005220


When didn't I listen to you? I am trying to be economical and still get quality. I wrote to John and we'll see what he says. Perhaps the model has been tweaked since it first came out? What is the difference between the VM Turbo blend and the 5200?

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Re: I think my search is over!smiling smiley
Posted by: syadasti ()
Date: April 17, 2011 11:27PM

Get the new Waring Extreme MX1000XTX. I had a Vitamix TNC (now called the 5200) for a long time and gave it away to a family member. I've been using it everyday, twice a day for the past month and half. The Waring is more powerful, cheaper, shorter(fits under cabinet), better insulated(quieter), and has a longer commercial warranty than the commercial Vitamixers. A commercial warranty reflects how well a blender will stand up to heavy duty use - home use will be no problem.

[www.everythingkitchens.com]

The Waring has a 13A motor (Vitamix uses 11.5(5200)-12.5A(Vitaprep 3) motors - I don't buy the BS peak HP ratings all manufacturers use since a 15A circuit can't reach some of the HP ratings claimed with a 100% efficient motor (FYI at 100% efficiency/no losses 1HP = 6.2A - operating range of a typical electric motor averages 60% efficiency). It is easier to clean (it has 4 small ribs to cause turbulence while blending/suck stuff down but smooth otherwise so its easy to clean). New for this year is a new Raptor carafe/blade assembly - its a 64 oz. NSF approved Tritan copolymer (BPA free) - there are not many commercially approved (NSF) carafe like this. Waring blenders use the same interface as the Vitamix, so the carafes are cross compatible.

I don't really buy in to the crazy for BPA-free plastic carafes as almost all store food comes in containers which leach since they have plastic or epoxy linings - glass or stainless is the only thing left but on glass (even home canning) the lids still leach. Since I'm not storing things in the carafe (and manufacturers don't recommend storing food in carafe), its marketing for suckers. Waring and other companies do make stainless steel carafes but they cost a lot more and probably aren't as easy to work with.

It comes in versions with variable speed and even a sound enclosure, but they aren't necessary - high, low, and pulse on the 1000 is just fine. I don't miss the variable speed on my TNC.

[www.youtube.com]



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/2011 11:42PM by syadasti.

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Re: I think my search is over!smiling smiley
Posted by: Wheatgrass Yogi ()
Date: April 17, 2011 11:39PM

banana who Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> .......What is the
> difference between the VM Turbo blend and the
> 5200?
The TurboBlend VS and the 5200 are virtually the same, except for the styling of the containers, and the cosmetic look of the housings. The 5200 has a nicer 'look' in my opinion.
The Omega B2300 is a 2-speed, similar to the Vitamix TurboBlend. The Omega B2500 has a variable-speed dial, similar to the Vitamix TurboBlend VS, and the Vitamix 5200.
Either Vitamix is preferable to either Omega. I'd rather have a Vitamix on my counter. Don't let a little money stand in your way. Besides, the Omega line of blenders just came out, and are, as yet, unproven.....WY


[www.everythingkitchens.com]

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Re: I think my search is over!smiling smiley
Posted by: banana who ()
Date: April 17, 2011 11:53PM

Thank you, Sydadasti! That machine looks very good and even though it has less of a warranty than the VM, I wouldn't abuse it and I bet it would last a long time. The only question I have is whether it's TOO powerful? I mean, 3 hp? Do we really need that level of blending? Also, what about the overheating aspect like the old VM did? I guess their new versions have a cooling fan or something to keep the contents from getting oxidized...

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Re: I think my search is over!smiling smiley
Posted by: Wheatgrass Yogi ()
Date: April 18, 2011 01:13AM

banana who Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thank you, Sydadasti!
See what I mean about you never listening to me? I put my Heart and Soul into my advice, and not a word from you.
Picture a Daddy giving an unruly Daughter a good spanking (verbally only).....WY

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Re: I think my search is over!smiling smiley
Posted by: pborst ()
Date: April 18, 2011 01:15AM

WY, you always complain that you and I don't agree on anything. Ok. I agree with you. BW, don't do it. WY is right, John Kohler agrees with him. Don't believe me? [www.discountjuicers.com] Also take a look at John's best pick, the VM Turboblender. WY is correct about the Omega 2300 not being BPA free. John's comparison chart identifies it as polycarbonate, polymer that using BPA as a building block. [en.wikipedia.org]. Don't do it.

Paul

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Re: I think my search is over!smiling smiley
Posted by: syadasti ()
Date: April 18, 2011 01:21AM

None of these machines are actually 3hp. As I said if the motor was 100% efficient 1HP = 6.2A or 745.7 watts - best case in the real world (since motors are not 100% efficient) at 1HP at around 1100 watts or around 9A. The 5200 motor is 11.5A, the Vitaprep 3 (one of the best Vitamix blenders you'd need in a home, a commercial product) is 12.5A [they do actually make a higher 15A unit - overkill for home], the Waring is 13A, most Blendtec are 13A (some of the commercial units they make go all the way to 20A but they require a special electrical circuit - standard US household circuits are 15A).

The Vitaprep is a better blender than the 5200, it is commercial so it has a similar shorter warranty like the Waring (heavy duty use - many many times a day). Since you aren't using it like a restaurant would, I wouldn't be concerned.

Also be aware there are some very fraudulent manufacturers like the Omni V TM-800A "3hp" blender - it only has an 8A motor!

The Waring runs at about 30,000 RPM on high and 26000 RPM on low. The pulse mode switch runs the blade in high mode.

The fans on blenders are to keep the motor from overheating by increasing fresh airflow, they have nothing to do with cooling the contents of the carafe.

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Re: I think my search is over!smiling smiley
Posted by: pborst ()
Date: April 18, 2011 01:28AM

fwiw, John Kohler does not favor Waring Blenders.

"Have you heard about the Waring Pro MX1000 Blender with 3 horsepower?
Yes, we have, and we evaluated this model for a month before deciding not to sell this model. The blades seem to "beat" things around even more than the Vitamix 4500. In addition, the carafe is "fluted" so that it makes it much harder to clean than even the vitamix 4500. Also in the past, our company has had customer service issues with the waring company. In addition, even though the blender is rated at 3 horsepower, in our tests, the Champ HP3 Blender outperformed this model."

Note the "Champ" HP3 is another name for the Blendtec.

Scroll down under the chart. [www.discountjuicers.com]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/18/2011 01:30AM by pborst.

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Re: I think my search is over!smiling smiley
Posted by: pborst ()
Date: April 18, 2011 01:36AM

What's all of the fuss about BPA? Bisphenol A is a nasty endocrine disruptor which is especially damaging to fetal development. It's linked to neurological disorders and obesity believe or not. [en.wikipedia.org] It may also be a carcinogen.

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Re: I think my search is over!smiling smiley
Posted by: syadasti ()
Date: April 18, 2011 02:03AM

I am just trying to cut through all the snake oil everyone is selling.

I am not recommending the older MX1000 (which does not have a 13A motor either - 12A), I am recommending the new MX1000XTX - 13A motor - it has a new carafe design, Tritan Copolymer and a new blade assembly. As I said I was a long time Vitamix TNC (Total Nutrition Center) user. A TNC is now called the 5200. Companies are not static and they change their products and marketing all the time to best suit the market conditions. See the carafe in my short video:

[www.youtube.com]

Quote

It is easier to clean [than the vitamix carafe] (it has 4 small ribs to cause turbulence while blending/suck stuff down but smooth [and flat] otherwise so its easy to clean). New for this year is a new Raptor carafe/blade assembly - its a 64 oz. NSF approved Tritan copolymer (BPA free) - there are not many commercially approved (NSF) carafe like this. Waring blenders use the same interface as the Vitamix, so the carafes are cross compatible.

Also people need to get real about BPA in blenders:

Quote

I don't really buy in to the crazy for BPA-free plastic carafes as almost all store food comes in containers which leach since they have plastic or epoxy linings - glass or stainless is the only thing left but on glass (even home canning) the lids still leach. Since I'm not storing things in the carafe (and manufacturers don't recommend storing food in carafe), its marketing for suckers. Waring and other companies do make stainless steel carafes but they cost a lot more and probably aren't as easy to work with.

And testing has shown BPA-free does not mean hormone free:
[www.npr.org]

Waring sells the MX1000XTS (stainless steel carafe) if you can't be realistic about the actual risk of having your food in plastic for minutes - we are not talking about storage here (against manufacturer recommendations - do not leave food or beverages in your carafe - do not store them in the refrigerator - its not good for the blade assembly)!

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Re: I think my search is over!smiling smiley
Posted by: pborst ()
Date: April 18, 2011 02:30AM

Please note that the Titan Copolymer that the Vitamix and Blendtec are made of was not referenced in the single study mentioned referred to above [ehp03.niehs.nih.gov]. That study looked at HDPE, polypropylene, polystrene and a few other common polymers but not the Titan Copolymer
It appears that BPA has estrogen disruptor effects in animals and possibly in humans. Also, other health effects from BPA have been documented. No such data seems to be suggested for the Titan copolymer. [www.titangroup.com]

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Re: I think my search is over!smiling smiley
Posted by: syadasti ()
Date: April 18, 2011 02:58AM

The Waring Raptor container is one of the few commercial Titan (ie NSF approved) carafes on the market, so the are all equal on that front plus you can buy it with a stainless steel carafe.

[www.everythingkitchens.com]

And realistically leaching is a concern in storage or high-temperature applications (higher temperatures speed up chemical reactions). No blenders are UL approved for cooking in them, even the Vitamix which talks about "cooking soup" in them.

Another important point is that traditional polycarbonate containers have a higher melting point than new co-polymer BPA-free plastics, so it will take more heat to cause leaching problem (of any chemicals, not specifically BPA). It took years for them to figure out problems with Polycarbonate, don't be so sure Titan will have a clear track record when its fully analyzed and proven like polycarbonate seemingly was in the past.



The primary reason small resellers have turned away on Waring is the lack of price control to protect their profit margins. Thomas Fox/123vita.com/3blenders.com had rated them as the best they sold until they had problems with Waring's free market distribution model. 3Blenders was honest enough to admit this was the reason they stopped carrying most of the Waring models and had until recently recommend buying the other Waring from one of the other resellers. They actually no longer promote anything but their discount Omni V blender now.

Quote
123vita.com
Our Opinion the best for the money is...
In our opinion and based on our experience, the best for the money, addressing the needs of the broadest consumer base, and making for its power the finest smoothies, the best deal is the Waring MX1200XT 3.5 hp commercial blender. Of course, you can always buy a more powerful blender, the Blendtec 20 AMP Smoother with the 3.5 hp ICB7 blender motor. Power can mean speed, longevity, and endurance. It also means probably better smoothie quality, phyto-nutrient release and made in less time.

A best high performance blender does not have to always cost the most. It all depends on your budget, needs, and functionality. Take into consideration power versus torque, speed, cost, and end result (the smoothie quality and how long it takes to make it). Do you need your smoothies in 15 seconds or is it ok to wait 45 seconds? Are you into computer-electronic sophistication or do you feel more comfortable with the feel and touch to the buttons, switches, and knobs?

The Blendtec ICB 7 Smoother 20 AMP Power Blender costs $ 875.00. It is a 3.5 hp blender with 2400 watts power supply. This enables the blender to draw more electricity to its motor as it is needed to reach the higher speed that no other can reach. But for around $ 500 you can buy the Waring MX1200XT 3.5hp blender that has 12.5 amps and 1500 watts. This one does not reach the same speed but it has a 3.5 hp torque with a 2.5 hp blender speed. This is enough for the elderly in nursing homes to be served the best smoothies, purees and soups to give them adequate nutrition.

For $ 350.00 more, you simply can buy 1/2 hp more torque and nearly 70% more speed. The 20 AMP 3.5 hp Blendtec ICB7 blender is fantastic, but you must ask yourself: "Is it really necessary to spend the money?" Once you drive a Mercedes Benz or a BMW (you get the idea), you just don't want to drive anything else anymore. It's the same with the ICB7 3.5 hp lawnmower power.

Surely, a 2 hp blender is the very minimum you should get if you want to break any cell-walls at all. The Vita-Moohoo 52000, the Vita-Moohoo 45000 Turbo Blender, and the Vita-Pimp 2 are mostly adequate high-performance-blenders, ranging in the $ 400 area.

It is certainly better to have a 100 to 200$ blender than no Blender at all. The lower power blenders usually break more frequently. The power draw and the resistance of ingredients during daily use burns out the motor. We hear frequently from customers explaining that their current (whatever the brand) model burned out and they already bought the 3rd blender in that year. If you don't have the $ 500 and upwards to get the best, at least, do yourself a favor and get a medium blender in the low $ 200's.

Review between the best Blenders
We are talking about Commercial and Residential Blenders. Basically, they are all the same kind. The only difference is in the warranty and how the manufacturers want to manipulate its consumers to buying one blender over another. If you get a 3 year warranty, that is good. When reviewing the 2 hp blenders, 3 hp blenders, and 3.5 hp blenders, consider the only thing that differentiates a commercial blender from the residential blender.

Secondly, we are talking about 3.5 hp blenders, the 3 hp blenders, and the 2 hp blenders. Then we differentiation between the Blendtec and the Waring Blenders. The EZ blender and for example the Connoisseur from Blendtec are 2 hp blenders. The commercial Waring blenders with MX and XT are all 3.5 hp blenders. These 3.5 hp blenders may have a greater motor, but are not necessarily faster. Speed is not everything. A lot laboratories for testing use the Waring 3.5 hp blender because you can't kill the motor.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/18/2011 03:04AM by syadasti.

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Re: I think my search is over!smiling smiley
Posted by: syadasti ()
Date: April 18, 2011 03:52AM

Forgot to post this above. Heat, BY FAR, is a much more significant problem with BPA leaching. If you are following UL and blender manufacturer guidelines (not storing food in your carafes and especially not cooking them) the risk is not significant in recommended blending applications. Note the measured levels in the non-heated containers were after storage FOR SEVEN DAYS!.

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Quote
Toxicology Letters
Abstract

The impact of endocrine disrupting chemical (EDC) exposure on human health is receiving increasingly focused attention. The prototypical EDC bisphenol A (BPA) is an estrogenic high-production chemical used primarily as a monomer for the production of polycarbonate and epoxy resins. It is now well established that there is ubiquitous human exposure to BPA. In the general population, exposure to BPA occurs mainly by consumption of contaminated foods and beverages that have contacted epoxy resins or polycarbonate plastics. To test the hypothesis that bioactive BPA was released from polycarbonate bottles used for consumption of water and other beverages, we evaluated whether BPA migrated into water stored in new or used high-quality polycarbonate bottles used by consumers. Using a sensitive and quantitative competitive enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay, BPA was found to migrate from polycarbonate water bottles at rates ranging from 0.20 ng/h to 0.79 ng/h. At room temperature the migration of BPA was independent of whether or not the bottle had been previously used. Exposure to boiling water (100 degrees C) increased the rate of BPA migration by up to 55-fold. The estrogenic bioactivity of the BPA-like immunoreactivity released into the water samples was confirmed using an in vitro assay of rapid estrogen signaling and neurotoxicity in developing cerebellar neurons. The amounts of BPA found to migrate from polycarbonate drinking bottles should be considered as a contributing source to the total "EDC-burden" to which some individuals are exposed.



Quote

Figure 2
Comparison of bisphenol A (BPA) migration into water from new and used polycarbonate bottles

Individual values calculated following room temperature incubation for 7 days in new or used polycarbonate bottles are show. The mean values calculate are indicated and graphically represented with a horizontal dashed line. Error bars represent the standard deviation.

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Re: I think my search is over!smiling smiley
Posted by: pborst ()
Date: April 18, 2011 11:37AM

I looked at the Waring Commercial MX1000xtx. And I agree it has a BPA carafe and a powerful motor. And I think you are right that at a $300 price point, it seems to be a good entry level blender notwithstanding the customer service issues that John has had with Waring over the years. The latter would concern me, especially since the Waring MX1000xtx being a commercial blender is limited to a 3 year motor warranty and 2 year parts and labor warranty. I think I would opt for the additional $150 and at the $450 price point go for a Vitamix Turboblend VS. for the 7 year warranty, variable speed control, tamper and solid customer relations.

On BPA, remember a higher melting point is not predictive of leaching behavior. It just means that the polymer can withstand higher heat tolerances. And if there no BPA in the polymer to begin, it's not important. The other thing to remember is that some cold leaching does occur. And more importantly, heat is not the only factor that increases leaching. So does acidity.

"Bisphenol A has been known to be leached from the plastic lining of canned foods[136] and, to a lesser degree,[citation needed] polycarbonate plastics, especially those that are cleaned with harsh detergents or used to contain acidic [emphasis added or high-temperature liquids....."

[en.wikipedia.org]

So just because higher temperature leaches more BPA, which I agree with, doesn't mean you can't leach more BPA from blended materials in polycarbonate carafe with acidic feeds such as citric juices or vinegars esp if you repeat these recipes. While most fruits and vegetables are alkaline, some are not. I think the goal though is to reduce body burden from xenoestrogens as much as possible. And getting a BPA container is a great way to do that.

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Re: I think my search is over!smiling smiley
Posted by: syadasti ()
Date: April 18, 2011 12:23PM

You gotta love armchair "experts".

A true commercial blender, by construction and definition is built for heavy duty use and conditions - consumers rarely if ever come even close to an establishment like a restaurant or bar which uses their equipment around the clock. This is why BOTH Vitamix and Waring have the shorter warranty for their higher end, more powerful commercial models. Consumer blenders, even on the high-end, are still the lower-end commercial models and they are just marketed differently to a different segment of the market. Considering that Waring has changed the MX1000XTX significantly and discountjuicers.com was not a major Waring dealer in the past, you are making guesses. I used a TNC for over ten years and I HAVE A MX1000XTX. As I said 3Blenders.com was honest in admitting the primary reason they stopped carrying Waring was the low margins due to the way Waring allow free market distribution of their product (and technically, price control by manufacturers like Vitamix, Omega, etc is ILLEGAL - trade restriction is not allowed in the US)

Without studies and hard numbers on pH levels regarding BPA, you are AGAIN guessing - feeding into the mass hysteria and marketing. And don't forget discountjuicers.com sells a large number of plastic part containing juicers, many of which are made of polycarbonate - you better stop buying and using those juicers if you are serious about your hysteria.

The hard numbers from actual studies show storage and especially high temperature are the prime risk factors. Depolymerization, from heat or otherwise, by definition, is the risk which breaks the structure down of plastic into other simpler chemicals.

I haven't see any study that specifically addresses the relation between pH and BPA leaching. However, I did see this:

[www.rodale.com]

Quote

An unexpected finding was that the levels of BPA often varied from can to can, and 11 of the canned foods tested had no detectable levels of BPA, suggesting that food manufacturers are using some can linings that don't leach BPA. For instance, one can of the Del Monte Fresh Cut Green Beans contained 65 parts per billion (ppb) while another contained 26.6 ppb. One can of Progresso Vegetable and Rice Soup contained 22.7 ppb, while another contained 15.6. And contrary to the belief that acidic foods cause greater leaching of BPA from cans into foods, the acidity of the foods in this study didn't seem to have an influence. The highest BPA levels were found in foods with a pH of 6, which is one level above neutral and more basic than acidic, and some acidic foods they tested, such as canned tomato paste and pineapple chunks, contained no detectable BPA at all.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/18/2011 12:26PM by syadasti.

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Re: I think my search is over!smiling smiley
Posted by: pborst ()
Date: April 18, 2011 01:13PM

syadasti Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You gotta love armchair "experts".

You gotta love namecalling and labeling. Beats civility doesn't it?

> A true commercial blender, by construction and
> definition is built for heavy duty use and
> conditions - consumers rarely if ever come even
> close to an establishment like a restaurant or bar
> which uses their equipment around the clock. This
> is why BOTH Vitamix and Waring have the shorter
> warranty for their higher end, more powerful
> commercial models. Consumer blenders, even on the
> high-end, are still the lower-end commercial
> models and they are just marketed differently to a
> different segment of the market. Considering that
> Waring has changed the MX1000XTX significantly and
> discountjuicers.com was not a major Waring dealer
> in the past, you are making guesses.

Discountjuicers has had customer service problems with Waring in the past. And a change in design of a blender doesn't either indicate increased reliability of the product or improved customer service. That's wishful thinking. John carried Warings had both customer service and performance problems with the machines and discontinued them. That's not guessing that's reporting someone else's experience.

I used a TNC
> for over ten years and I HAVE A MX1000XTX. As I
> said 3Blenders.com was honest in admitting the
> primary reason they stopped carrying Waring was
> the low margins due to the way Waring allow free
> market distribution of their product (and
> technically, price control by manufacturers like
> Vitamix, Omega, etc is ILLEGAL - trade restriction
> is not allowed in the US)

I'm glad your Waring has provided you with good performance. That doesn't mean John's extensive experience with Waring vs. other blenders isn't valid or relevant.

> Without studies and hard numbers on pH levels
> regarding BPA, you are AGAIN guessing - feeding
> into the mass hysteria and marketing. And don't
> forget discountjuicers.com sells a large number of
> plastic part containing juicers, many of which are
> made of polycarbonate - you better stop buying and
> using those juicers if you are serious about your
> hysteria.

It's not an issue of hard numbers is it? Acidity increases leaching so that it just isn't heat. Cold leaching in neutral phs can occur though to a smaller degree. The point is that leaching is documents in canned liners with acidic foods.

> The hard numbers from actual studies show storage
> and especially high temperature are the prime risk
> factors. Depolymerization, from heat or
> otherwise, by definition, is the risk which breaks
> the structure down of plastic into other simpler
> chemicals.

Based on what?

> I haven't see any study that specifically
> addresses the relation between pH and BPA
> leaching. However, I did see this:
>
> [www.rodale.com]
>
> An unexpected finding was that the levels of BPA
> often varied from can to can, and 11 of the canned
> foods tested had no detectable levels of BPA,
> suggesting that food manufacturers are using some
> can linings that don't leach BPA. For instance,
> one can of the Del Monte Fresh Cut Green Beans
> contained 65 parts per billion (ppb) while another
> contained 26.6 ppb. One can of Progresso Vegetable
> and Rice Soup contained 22.7 ppb, while another
> contained 15.6. And contrary to the belief that
> acidic foods cause greater leaching of BPA from
> cans into foods, the acidity of the foods in this
> study didn't seem to have an influence. The
> highest BPA levels were found in foods with a pH
> of 6, which is one level above neutral and more
> basic than acidic, and some acidic foods they
> tested, such as canned tomato paste and pineapple
> chunks, contained no detectable BPA at all.

The article shows that the author doesn't understand ph at all. Ph is a scale of 0 to 14 and 7 is neutral. The lower the number the higher the acidity. So 6 is one level below, actually 10 times since ph are in orders of magnitude more acidic than neutral, not more basic than neutral. So, the highest BPA level was found in acidic food, which supports the general point. The fact that BPA wasn't found in some acidic foods by itself doesn't disprove the general proposition. How much free BPA was available in the container, how old is the container, so forth.

In any case since you have made a point to get personal, I think I will agree to disagree and leave it at that.

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Re: I think my search is over!smiling smiley
Posted by: syadasti ()
Date: April 18, 2011 02:11PM

Discountjuicers.com is not and has never been a major reseller to the commercial market which is where Waring makes the overwhelming majority of their sales from - they do not market to consumers heavily like Vitamix - there are no demos at warehouse and chainstores, they do not actively promote through smaller resellers like John K (discountjuicers.com) and Thomas Fox (3blenders.com) - the distribution model and target market is simply not the same. Also a small sample size (like John K's) in any population does not reflect the reality of a product - stats 101 - not statistically relevant - it merely provides an anecdote of limited value in anything other than marketing.

The author of that article did not conduct the study. The important take away is that study found no consistent link between pH and BPA levels. This was reproduced in MORE THAN ONE STUDY

Quote

The Work Group for Safe Markets’ report, No Silver Lining, An Investigation into Bisphenol A in Canned Foods,x tested canned foods for BPA and detected it in 92%, of the canned food samples.

• The highest level of BPA—1,140 part per billion (ppb), to our knowledge the highest level ever found in the U.S.—was detected in DelMonte French Style Green Beans from a participant’s pantry in Wisconsin.

• Other high scorers included Wal-Mart’s Great Value Green Peas from a store in Kentucky, and Healthy Choice Old Fashioned Chicken Noodle Soup from a pantry in Montana.


• On average, the products contained 77.36 ppb of bisphenol A.

• BPA levels varied even among the same products purchased in different regions.

Similar testing of canned foods by Consumer’s Union,xi University of Texas,xii and Health Canadaxiii confirm that BPA migrates from food can linings into the food contained by the cans.

• Consumers Union also found the highest levels of BPA in DelMonte Green Beans.xiv

Quote

We did not find a correlation between the age of the
product—whether it came from a pantry or a store shelf—
and the amount of BPA in the food.

...

This study also shows that BPA levels in canned food cannot be predicted by the price of the product, the quality, or relative nutrition value of the product, or where it was purchased

...


Even cans from different batches of the same product
may result in widely different BPA levels: a can of DelMonte
Green Beans could contain significantly more BPA one week
than the next (1,140 ppb in one can—the highest finding
in the study—versus 296.2 ppb in another can).


...

We found that the average amounts of BPA in tested products varied widely; most items showed levels from trace amounts to about 32 parts per billion. Products in that range included canned corn, chili, tomato sauce, and corned beef.

The highest levels of BPA in our tests were found in the canned green beans and canned soup. In Progresso Vegetable Soup, the levels of BPA ranged from 67 to 134 ppb. In Campbell's Condensed Chicken Noodle Soup, the levels of BPA ranged from 54.5 to 102 ppb. Canned Del Monte Fresh Cut Green Beans Blue Lake had BPA levels ranging from 35.9 ppb to 191 ppb, the highest amount for a single sample in our test. Since we didn't test other canned green beans or soups, we don't know if this is typical of those products.

...

Although BPA levels in that canned juice were not among the highest in the foods we tested, canned juice can account for a substantial amount of dietary BPA exposure in children who drink a lot of it. Drinking three servings per day of canned apple juice with BPA levels comparable to the levels found in our samples could result in a dose of BPA that is more than our experts' daily upper limit.

Quote

BPA levels were higher for foods of pH 5 compared to more acidic and alkaline foods. Detected levels were comparable to those found by others. Further research is indicated to determine BPA levels in U.S. food in larger, representative sampling.

Quote

the BPA level in only one product (tomato paste) was below the method detection limit (MDL) of 0.60 ng/g*.

Canned tuna products had the highest BPA levels, in general, with average and maximum BPA levels of 137 and 534 ng/g*, respectively. Canned soup products had the next highest BPA levels. BPA levels in the condensed soup products were considerably higher than those in the ready-to-serve soup products, with average and maximum BPA levels of 52 and 94 ng/g* for the condensed soup compared to 15 and 34 ng/g* for the ready-to-serve soup.

BPA levels in canned tomato paste products were considerably lower. The average and maximum BPA levels for the tomato paste products were 1.1 and 2.1 ng/g*, while they were 9.3 and 23 ng/g* for the pure tomato products.

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Re: I think my search is over!smiling smiley
Posted by: banana who ()
Date: April 18, 2011 02:52PM

Hmm...I buy canned tomatoes with that lining...So I would think that would pose a bigger health risk than whirling a smoothie for 30 sec. in a blender, no? I have to say that I just can't stomach paying $450 for a blender--$300 is a bit more palatable. And I am in a two-person household so it's not some huge operation here. I did read a negative review about the Waring company's customer service issues so that throws a bit of a monkey wrench into things. Oh you menfolk and your technical mumbo jumbo! My brain is all awry trying to make heads or tails out of that!

WY: For once I am speechless. Wow...

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Re: I think my search is over!smiling smiley
Posted by: syadasti ()
Date: April 18, 2011 04:02PM

Canned and processed foods are by far the biggest health concern you should address. Non-storage use in unheated foods and beverages containers are not the primary exposure sources (ie your blender or your daily reuseable water bottle). Consumer Reports offers good advice on this matter:

Quote
Consumer Union
In Japan, most major manufacturers voluntarily changed their can linings in 1997 to cut or eliminate the use of BPA because of concerns about health effects. A 2003 Japanese study found that the levels of the chemical in subjects' urine dropped by 50 percent after the change in cans was made.

Pete Myers, chief scientist at Environmental Health Sciences, a nonprofit group based in Charlottesville, Va., says that while can linings aren't the only source of BPA exposure, the experiences in Japan can be instructive.

In the meantime, experts say that consumers who are concerned might be able to reduce, though not necessarily eliminate, their dietary exposure to BPA by taking the following steps:

-Choose fresh food whenever possible.
-Consider alternatives to canned food, beverages, juices, and infant formula.
-Use glass containers when heating food in microwave ovens.

This article is a little more extensive, but again canned foods are usually the primary source: [ej4all.org]

Any product reviewed product online you tend to get biases on either end of the spectrum. People who are merely satisfied will not take the time that someone who is absolutely thrilled or disgusted with a product or service will. Almost any product or service will also have SOME outliers which do not represent the normal experience a buyer should expect. The vocal minority should not be a concern but most people do not realize this sampling bias when reading about products online. People also have cognitive dissonance when they have heavily invested in a product or brand (ie they bought an expensive product or they sell and promote one).

Honestly I have used cheap blenders too and they still work well but often just take longer and for a few tasks the lack of power is significant. I also know two friends who prefer their normal blender over their Vitamix as it doesn't not aerate the mixtures like high powered blenders do. Cheap blenders won't last as long but you could buy half a dozen of them for the cost of one of these high-powered ones! Many of the differences they promote on these higher end blenders really are not significant to the average user, especially consumers.

This one in particular is good and as John K. says when it comes down to it the important thing is to find ways to eat more fresh fruits and vegetables:

[goo.gl]

Here is a test (note the intern does not seem to very good at using blenders - all blenders have a learn curve - some steeper than others - and can be useful):

[www.youtube.com]

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Re: I think my search is over!smiling smiley
Posted by: juicin' john ()
Date: April 18, 2011 04:06PM

suggestion for a good solution...


buy a cheapo and burn it out before the warranty expires.
please keep in mind that i do not use a blender very often so my $.o2 worth may be worth disregarding.

jj

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Re: I think my search is over!smiling smiley
Posted by: Wheatgrass Yogi ()
Date: April 18, 2011 04:09PM

banana who Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WY: For once I am speechless. Wow...
Please disregard anything I said. I was having a bad day.
I've tried all the major blenders...Vitamix...Blendtec...Waring. This has been some time ago, and Waring has since come out with a new lineup, as syadasti mentioned. I tried the old Waring MX1200, and found it lacking in power. I'm toying with the idea of buying the new version 1200 (with variable-speed dial), which is worth the extra money to me. Going from Low-to-High, without intermediate speeds, only ends up with the mixture splashed up to the top, wasting much of the smoothie....as the 2-speed Blenders do.....Vitamix 4500, Vitamix TurboBlend, Waring MX1000, and the new Omega B2300.
BW....Keep us informed as to what you decide.....WY
P.S. Anyone who is serious about the Raw Food lifestyle will buy a Blender they can Love.
P.P.S. Here's John Kohler introducing the new Omega line of blenders.


[www.youtube.com]

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Re: I think my search is over!smiling smiley
Posted by: Krefcenz ()
Date: April 18, 2011 04:18PM

ssyadasti Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> The important take away is that study
> found no consistent link between pH and BPA
> levels. This was reproduced in MORE THAN ONE
> STUDY
>
>
> BPA levels were higher for foods of pH 5 compared
> to more acidic and alkaline foods.

These two statements seem to be in conflict. It seems to indicate that maximum solubility of BPA is achieved in an acidic environment.

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Re: I think my search is over!smiling smiley
Posted by: syadasti ()
Date: April 18, 2011 04:43PM

Read it again, it says food samples more acidic (lower than 5) and alkaline (higher than 5) were not as high as pH 5 sample(s) - ie the pH is not the determining factor as the other studies I quoted also showed. Green beans, which came out as the most BPA in various studies, are alkaline food. Tomatoes and pineapples are acid and yet they came out as low scores for BPA leaching or even undetectable. The results are all over the board and pH is clearly not a reliable indicator. These are scientific, and in some case peer reviewed studies - not Wikipedia which even the average person usually realizes isn't always entirely accurate.

I also want to mention that cheap Kitchenaid 5 speed comes two more expensive models (around $100 and 130 on Amazon) with a glass carafe if you don't want plastic carafe at budget price.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/18/2011 04:45PM by syadasti.

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Re: I think my search is over!smiling smiley
Posted by: banana who ()
Date: April 18, 2011 05:44PM

syadasti Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Read it again, it says food samples more acidic
> (lower than 5) and alkaline (higher than 5) were
> not as high as pH 5 sample(s) - ie the pH is not
> the determining factor as the other studies I
> quoted also showed. Green beans, which came out
> as the most BPA in various studies, are alkaline
> food. Tomatoes and pineapples are acid and yet
> they came out as low scores for BPA leaching or
> even undetectable. The results are all over the
> board and pH is clearly not a reliable indicator.
> These are scientific, and in some case peer
> reviewed studies - not Wikipedia which even the
> average person usually realizes isn't always
> entirely accurate.
>
> I also want to mention that cheap Kitchenaid 5
> speed comes two more expensive models (around $100
> and 130 on Amazon) with a glass carafe if you
> don't want plastic carafe at budget price.

Question, do you know the hp/wattage on those models? I saw a model with a poly carafe for about $150. Some reviewers said it leaked but I believe they re-tooled it at some point but I am not sure. Also, I noticed that the Waring has a version with stainless steel, which I think is interesting. Some people claim that ss is not easy to clean. Makes absolutely no sense.

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Re: I think my search is over!smiling smiley
Posted by: banana who ()
Date: April 18, 2011 05:47PM

You know, I just read an excerpt that Syadasti including upthread and it claimed that the cheaper blenders break down more often and that some people have had 3 motors burn out within a year. Now that is just silly and indicative, IMO, of abuse by owner. I had my cheapo HB number and had it for years. AND the carafe was glass. I think I am gonna go for either an Oster or KA. For now. Then I can buy a dehydrator with the leftover moola!smiling smiley

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Re: I think my search is over!smiling smiley
Posted by: Krefcenz ()
Date: April 18, 2011 06:16PM

syadasti Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Read it again, it says food samples more acidic
> (lower than 5) and alkaline (higher than 5) were
> not as high as pH 5 sample(s) - ie the pH is not
> the determining factor as the other studies I
> quoted also showed. Green beans, which came out
> as the most BPA in various studies, are alkaline
> food. Tomatoes and pineapples are acid and yet
> they came out as low scores for BPA leaching or
> even undetectable. The results are all over the
> board and pH is clearly not a reliable indicator.
> These are scientific, and in some case peer
> reviewed studies - not Wikipedia which even the
> average person usually realizes isn't always
> entirely accurate.

I went back and looked at the material you printed. And it does not say that ph is not a factor affecting solubility. It presents variability among different types of foods and suggest different contributing factors but does not state that ph is not a causal factor. Rather it seems to suggest that BPA demonstrates properties of an amphoteric chemical with relatively lower solubility at lower and higher phs than 5. That would seem to suggest that ph in an acidic environment of 5 is one of many factors that determines overall solubility of the chemical in food stocks.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/18/2011 06:19PM by Krefcenz.

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Re: I think my search is over!smiling smiley
Posted by: syadasti ()
Date: April 18, 2011 06:42PM

It was a single result and there is not clear factor to determine BPA leaching in lined cans - there are so many variables involved when dealing with mass produced products too (they might change can vendors or have multiple vendors, a canning machine/processing machine might be calibrated different, etc). The other two studies did not show this result, so one cannot state pH is a factor without further research and a body of studies confirms or denies its role. This is going far off-topic anyways and the key takeaway is that the most significant source of BPA in US diets is canned goods, not occasional quick use of PC blender carafe or juicer that contains plastic parts like PC.

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Re: I think my search is over!smiling smiley
Posted by: syadasti ()
Date: April 18, 2011 06:48PM

The polycarbonate carafe kitchenaid - $75 on amazon and the glass model which cost about $25 more is 6A - 720 watts. I am not familiar with the $130 glass model which comes with a different base and two different glass carafe. The polycarbonate Kitchenaid carafe was redesigned, it does not leak anymore - if you do break it they sell new ones on Amazon for $35.

The SS carafe is fluted like the old MX1000 polycarbonate carafe - it does not have smooth sides like the new Titan 64 oz. Raptor carafe.

banana who Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Question, do you know the hp/wattage on those
> models? I saw a model with a poly carafe for about
> $150. Some reviewers said it leaked but I believe
> they re-tooled it at some point but I am not sure.
> Also, I noticed that the Waring has a version with
> stainless steel, which I think is interesting.
> Some people claim that ss is not easy to clean.
> Makes absolutely no sense.

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