[www.youtube.com]

Now I was pretty much aware of what she ate already (although I didn't realize she ate a variety of meat). I am supportive of her for her honesty. My question is this: is there anyone who thinks that eggs would not be enough if you found that (as a raw or high-raw vegan) your B-12 wasn't high enough? Or what about dairy and eggs? I am just a bit baffled why you'd have to eat fish, poultry, and whatever other flesh she eats.

I don't get the dairy thing at all as I've read there really isn't so much B12 there. Maybe I'm wrong about that though.
As for the flesh foods, I don't know why that's working for her better than injections but it is so that's what she's chosen. I do know that you'd have to eat a lot of eggs daily to get enough B12 from that alone.
We take an oral supplement. Even though I'd rather everything we need be gotten from local whole food sources I know that's not reasonable, I don't even think it's possible. Then again, I've come to think that attaining perfection in diet on a daily basis isn't realistic either. I think the body can make do, it's an incredibly efficient organism.

To be 'vegan' means absolutely NO animal products, and I guess that includes 'honey' too. And before I begame 100% vegan, I used to eat one raw egg a week for my B12. But now I have the injection once every three months. And it's the bacterial one, not synthetic. Coco may be right too, that only the flesh will give enough B12.

Perhaps, the reason why Natasha eats meat, is because she likes it rather than fish etc. Personally, I'd rather eat fish over land animal or bird flesh, but maybe her tastes are different.

Cheers,
geo

I preface this by saying every body is different, but much of her diet is only theoretically high in B12. As we know, is NOT a true vitamin, there are all kinds of assimilation problems, and that's why supplements tend to be necessary, even for meat eaters.

As Natasha's diet now is a standard "healthy" omnivore diet, I hope the doctors advising her know what they're doing, and have proper nutrition training[fingers crossed]. I hope she gets healthy and stays healthy.

Personally, although I'm not strictly vegan, I would exhaust all non-animal supplements(including injections, Natasha!) before trying animal-based sources of B12; I doubt at this point that I could metabolize B12 in adequate amounts from animal products. It will be interesting to see if Natasha can. I respect her for sticking her neck out this way. It must be worrisome to have to put your diet out there for everyone's scrutiny.

Diet can be a strange thing sometimes socially. I don't know why people think they need to comment or review what anyone else is eating. I periodically take b12 supplements no matter what I eat or don't. Sublingual. Shouldn't that be enough? Someone at the local healthfood store advised it for everyone, as he said that fish doesn't really have enough. I think in saying that he was implying that land animals had enough. But I think thats some bias he learned somewhere.

My partner had some b12 injections I don't remember what for. Someone suggested it also as a way to get more energy,and that was from a person who regularly ate foods which were supposed to have plenty of b12. I don't know what is supposed to be so 'magical' about beef, but a friend years ago recommended it for health, and criticized me for not eating it. I think he didn't want to hear that, like he thought I was being critical of him. He told me that he also was taking b12 supplements after getting some blood tests. So I asked him why he was taking it, if beef had it, he just said because the nutritionist said I needed it....

I read recently that lots of B12 supplements are actually created with genetically modified bacteria. Just thought I'd throw that out there...

I believe that we all need B12 supps, cause we have become sooo clinically sterile. If we weren't so phobic about dirt, then we'd get plenty due to the bacteria that produces it.

geo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I believe that we all need B12 supps, cause we
> have become sooo clinically sterile. If we weren't
> so phobic about dirt, then we'd get plenty due to
> the bacteria that produces it.

I can't say i agree(sorry geo), vegans tend to make out that B12 deficiency is just as common in meat eaters when in reality that isn't really true from the studies of the last few decades. When a meat eater suffers from B12 deficiency it is pretty much always to do with an absorption issue i.e lack of intrinsic factor. B12 deficiency and pernicious anaemia isn't all that common in meat eaters and mostly occurs in the aging due to absorption issues. The average diet is so heavily caked in meat that it becomes no problem to achieve the RDA for most.

Where as with vegans in the majority of cases it tends to be because of a lack of dietary B12 intake. Thats not to say vegans don't suffer from absorption issues also just that its far more common to be caused by lack of dietary intake. I agree we have become very clinically sterile in society but i haven't seen any data that would suggest dirty veggies would contain enough B12 to meet the RDA.

As a vegan i think we should all supplement B12 as there is no reliable dietary source. As for Natasha i personally think she just done a u-turn on her dietary beliefs and felt including meat was more natural than using a supplement, each to their own i guess but if it was just to correct a B12 deficiency you wouldn't need to include such a wide range of animal foods, one or two would suffice. 100g of Salmon for example contains pretty much 100% of the RDA for B12, Dairy and Eggs contain about 10-25% of the RDA per serving. If it was an absorption issue from what i have read she wouldn't be absorbing the B12 from the animal foods anyway.



Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2012 12:17PM by powerlifer.

Powerlifer - do non raw vegans suffer that much from B12 deficiency? What about if they include daily amounts of marmite and B12 enriched foods such as margerine and some cereals. I was strictly vegan for 7 years - including a healthy pregnancy with a nine pound baby at the end of it) and I never suffered from B12 deficiency. I did ensure that as a family we had foods with B12 in them though as in the above examples and it seemed to be enough.

I think you are absolutely correct in your comments about the differences in meat eaters and raw vegan deficiencies in B12.

By non raw vegan do you mean just a regular cooked vegan or do you mean meat eaters/SAD. As a vegan aslong as you include fortified foods such as you mentioned you will in most cases be ok, absorption problems although not rare really aren't all that common either as some make out.

I get the bulk of my B12 via fortified foods some like you mentioned and that has sufficed for me no problems, although now and again i will cycle a B12 supplement just as a precaution. I consume a serving of vega wholefood optimizer for my breakfast most days which has 100% of the B12 RDA also.

I feel that some vegans overly play B12 deficiency in meat eaters to justify their use of supplements or B12 injections like its something to be ashamed of. According to the bulk of studies done B12 deficiency isn't all that common in meat eaters compared to vegetarians and vegans and when it is, it is caused by an absorption issue rather than lack of dietary intake which is the most common vegan cause.

Doesn't help when you get raw guru's saying you can get your B12 intake by breathing in the air or playing with your dog. Some buy into the theory that you don't need B12 which is dangerous as often by the time deficiency symptoms appear you may have already done irreversible neurological damage. Not a risk worth taking when you can eat some fortified foods or consume a B12 supplement. If you have an absorption issue in many cases intramuscular B12 is the only answer until corrected.

I think some try to make out that veganism is unfailable and when it comes to diet no two people are the same. Vitamin D is another one, sure it also occurs in meat eaters but vegans are at an increased risk because again there is no reliable dietary source. Not everyone has access to great sunlight so a supplement now and again is the price many of us vegans pay, especially ones who sit in posting on forums and working most of the first half of the day lol(cough me).

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2012 02:02PM by powerlifer.

yes I meant regular 'cooked' vegan. I agree with your comments and conclusions

Just a thought since I don't know much about the B-12 issue. If one has to get a shot of B-12 because of an inadequate vegan diet, then what makes the raw food diet ideal?

When I first read about a raw food diet, it just sounded so right to me. There is some missing link I feel about the B-12 issue.

How does a cow or does a cow need to ingest B-12?

Love,
Prism

Prism
Interesting ideas. The last time I was in trader joes I had an 'ah ha' moment. I found it totally ok to have supplemental b12 from fortified foods. That was when I was buying a bar with additional b12. If one doesn't want to eat meat, dairy or eggs, why shouldn't that be ok? And if one is really worred, get a test done, and get injections if the blood levels are low.

A cow probably gets plenty of b12 from its fertmentation tanks, the four stomachs and extenstive colon. I was thinking about that this morning about our own colon, its used to extract excess water out of fecal material to form a stool. But people say that b12 isn't absorbed here, it seems like it could, but the science isn't there.

I still wonder why nutritional 'experts' rely on animal products. My partners sister is a dietition and she gave the very UNWELCOME and misplaced advice for me and my partner to start eating meat. I think its just because she likes to eat it, and thinks that everyone should, meanwhile eating processed food as staples, and artificial sweetners etc...I have browsed through her nutrition books, and it suggested supplements for b12 for vegetarians and vegans. Certainly the book was more sensitive than she was. But the same book thought that it really wasn't an issue for some vegetarians in some parts of the world. It had something to do with cholorine in the water or something. Something we have in the west that other countries don;t have.

Here is an article about animals and b12
[www.veganhealth.org]
Internal sources of b12
[www.veganhealth.org]
This included some commentary about iranian near vegetarians.

Mislu, I am not commenting from a judgmental point of view! I am looking at it with an eye to heath and veganism and raw. As I recall, you seem to notice what "bad" foods other people are eating on a regular basis on here (I'm just sayin').

The main thing I find astounding is the radical departure. I am became a vedge at age 19. Before then I ate all kinds of meat. After all these years, I cannot imagine eating beef. I suppose health reasons trump the gross-out factor but Natasha was vegan since very young.

I think including animal products to get a vitamin one can easily supplement defeats the whole purpose of going vegan in the first place. just from the health perspective, you tradeoff avoiding B-12 deficiency and increase your risk of cancer (HCAs, PAHs, pathogens) and heart disease. Seems like a foolish trade if you ask me, to say nothing of animal welfare and ecological consciousness. I've lost respect for Natasha.

Paul



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/31/2012 07:19PM by pborst.

Bwho,
"I'm just saying" that why am I being criticized for what I eat? My partners sister really believes that processed foods aren't bad, meat is good, healthy, and essential. I would like to think that as a professional nutritionist she should be open to the idea of health, whole foods, even if its an omni diet. She should also be open to a vegan diet, but she isn't at all. I may be internally judgemental or say what I do on this bored. But I have NEVER criticized her for her food choices, as a direct comment. Thats different from rejecting certain foods when its offered. Are you suggesting that I should verbally tell her that what she is eating is bad?

I should be open to the idea that you aren't particularly judgemental or critical of others, but just keep in mind that some people are. My nephew-in-law made a comment sometime ago that really took me by surprise. He said that he didn't like vegetarians, because they were too picky, snotty and critical of him. In short judgemental. I have encountered that on more than one occation. It may totally be a projection on the part of meat eaters,but some do experience some judgement by vegans and vegetarians.

Mislu,

It's funny, but I've recently begun to notice a trend: We don't really think about meat eaters one way or another unless they are coming over for dinner, but meat eaters seem to live in abject fear of vegetarians--the defensiveness when you mention that you're a vegetarian, just casually! It's fascinating . . .

People get dependent on something and in this case it could be their SAD and while they may agree that more fresh produce is a good thing many are too fearful to think what they would eat if they let go of their main source of protein.

Love,
Prism

Mislu, I just felt that you were accusing me of judging Natasha, which is SO NOT what I was doing whatsoever. I was asking the question because I don't take B12 supplements, have been a vedge for a quarter of a century, but do not ever want to get into the place where I need to eat them.I was wondering why eggs wouldn't be sufficient for anyone using animal products to provide B12.

I don't judge people for eating meat or junk foods. Well...I do find it a bit indulgent to eat steak and fast food burgers because of the wasted energy to produce just a single pound of beef. I think it's all cruelty but I understand that most people are not awakened to this aspect of it.

Bwho,
Oh, I am sorry for any miscommunication. I appreciate you pointing out how much judgement I have for junk food, I guess I do. I envy people who just don't worry excessively about everything. I can have that also, but I usually suffer if I indulge. I usually feel the effects pretty immediately. I agree that most people who eat meat aren't aware of the things you point out.

Tamukha,
Fear of vegetarians, I guess in a way. My partners nephew just seemed annoyed. I worked with someone who said the same thing, that he didn't like vegetarians, I think because he got criticized during a meal or something. I noticed that people who have been vegetarian for a very long time, like most of their life don't generally exude that 'I'm vegetarian, why aren't you'. Thats probably a bit of a projection, but even if someone hears that once, thats what they hear from that point on.

Thanks for understanding, Mislu! Hey, have you seen this one yet?

[www.youtube.com]

I think my partner would say yes...I have said many of those things. The most striking thing about it is the totally modern setting that most of us live in. Except for the diet, he seemed like just another modern western person. I don't know how many raw foodists live in a completely different setting.

I have collected wild foods with my grandparents so many years ago, not raw vegan, but a very different experience all the way around than shopping.

mislu and tamukha, i can relate to being subject to unsolicited (and usually uninformed) dietary commentary from non vegetarians. they get very angry, and i've not said a word on anything, definitely nothing on how they eat....something of being a vegetarian infurates some people. maybe somewhere they realize they don't have to eat meat then and they might have to reconsider how 'right' their actions are? don't know really, but it's happened to me often. and it's not really changed that much over the years, which i thought perhaps it would given that vegetarianism seems to be more accepted.

adrian,

The trend toward general social acceptance of vegetarianism can't fail but to exacerbate the insecurities of insecure meatists[note: not all of them are]. Escalatio, you know; people who cannot/will not reverse course dig in and fight more obstinately to assert their own world view. It's the "whoever yells loudest wins" paradigm of communication, unfortunately.

Tamukha,
Well, that was a timely post. Me and my partner just finished an arguement. I can tell you that things can escalate pretty quickly when one is under stress, of one type of another. But I realize that could be at any point potentially. And no it wasn't about food. Something silly, worthless... but raising ones voice doesn't equal right, thats for sure. Its embarrasing, considering I got pretty loud. I am sure the people downstairs are impressed, but in the wrong way. I sometimes hear them also. So I guess thats apartment living.

I think it goes both ways, I have heard some vegetarians get pretty aggitated at omnivores.I don't know why its a point of polarization for some people. For other people it simply doesn't make a difference. I personally like the not make a difference...if its in the right way. I have met long time vegetarians who have been vegetarian for 20 years or more, and generally they aren't out to convert or argue with anyone, but are clear about being vegetarian. And people seem to accept them as they are.

Mislu,

Hope you patched things up

Well me and my partner are still together, Incident completely forgotten already...the people downstairs are still living downstairs. Its odd they know my name, but I can't remember theirs. I sometimes wonder why I have problems with names.

Mislu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ....Its odd they know my name, but I can't remember theirs. I sometimes wonder why I have problems with names.

They care more about you, than you about them......WY

I forget people's names all the time but I don't think it's because I don't care about them. I sometimes forget how old I am too, lol. It's just that some things aren't that important in my mind, my thoughts categorize stuff in unique ways. Characteristics make much more impact on me than a name does.
I have some mental tricks to help solidify information like names in my mind. Saying something over and over again to make a mental note of it works well. Pairing it with an image or another word or thought gives it a weightier recall power as well. Takes work if you don't think in words naturally.