Which brand would you recommend for these two?

As I understand they would need to be two different products, as they have absorbtion issues when taken together. I'm already taking Raw One multivitamin formula, but both calci and zinc are underrepresented there.

I don't think I can fix the issue with my diet since my daily calcium is always at 40 something percent recommended dose no matter what I eat. And zinc I can get to 70 or maybe 90 percent on good days, but I eat large amount of greens which means my copper hovers around 200, and so the proportion between copper and zinc suffers. So I thought I would supplement these two and forget about them. But don't know which supplements would be best. Are there differences between supplements in terms of how they are are 'made', similarly to differences between multivitamins (such as 'whole' and 'synthetic' etc)?

>Banana ice-cream rocks!<



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2012 05:27PM by chat.

This is what I take.

Zinc:

[www.amazon.com]

This product tests your level by tasting the Zinc flavor. So for example, if it tastes like metal then you don't need it (that day). My Zinc levels go down fast. In two days I may be low again (sweat a lot?). It is said that with one sex orgasm you lose 100 miligrams of Zinc (a two spoon of the liquid is 8 miligrams).

Calcium:

The important thing is the Magnesium to Calcium ratio. Mg helps absorb Ca. Check out this:

[www.amazon.com]

Spray it all over. Calcium is also raised with weight lifting (or intense exercise). High Ca and low Mg is bad.

Here are a couple of old posts from Jeff N…

Concerns for Zinc are based on current recommendations. Realize that the traditional concerns over a vegan diet are usually only for a few nutrients, which are Protein, Calcium, Iron and Zinc. Now, think about it, do you notice anything in common about these foods? One thing should stick out, Animal products are traditionally thought to be good sources of these nutrients. We know the beef industry has influenced the protein requirements and a vegan diet is more then sufficient. And now we know that excess protein, especially from animals can be harmful in many ways. We also know that the dairy industry has influenced the calcium recommendations and that a vegan diet and proper lifestyle can easily meet the calcium requirements. And now we know that taking in dairy products can be harmful in many ways.

And now we also know that a vegan diet can easily meet iron needs, and after all those years of being told you need to eat meat to get enough iron, as plants don’t contain a good "type" of iron, we now know that getting in too much iron in the form of iron that is in meat, can be highly toxic and leads to a condition called hemochromatosis. Well, the last one is zinc, and like the others, the recommended levels have been greatly influenced by these industries.

These "inflated" levels of protein, calcium, iron, zinc make animal based diets look good and vegan diets look bad, but now the truth is coming out and we are learning all about the hazards of the consumption of these animal products.
Jeff N
[www.vegsource.com]


The US RDAs for Protein, Calcium, and Zinc have all been elevated due to influence from the beef and dairy lobbyists and because of our poor diets using WHO standards is much better for all nutrients. They recommend about 35 grams per day in protein or .5g/kg ideal body weight, For calcium, it is around 550 mgs (JR - S/B 450, see Jeff N. & WHO on p.37 ), for Zinc it is about 7-9 . The RDA for calcium was raised in the US to compensate for the excess intakes of animal protein (which can negtively effect calcium "balance", and 2) because the primary source of calcium in the US is dairy products, which have a very low absorbtion rate (Around 32%). Dark green leafies have an absorbtion rate of around 55-65%. So, a health diet will fallshort on US targets for Protein, Calcium and maybe Zinc. Dont worry.

Also, most of us are worried about "intake" only when we should be worried about "balance". It just doesnt matter how much you take in but how much you keep absorb and utilize of a certain nutrient. Most nutrient levels were set, not from intake studies, but from balance studies.
[www.living-foods.com]

Date: 12-10-99 18:03

The calcium recommendations that you refer to (1200 gm) are for the average American women who is living on a diet that is high in many things that increase calcium excretion (which raises your need for more calcium) which include high animal protein, high salt, high sugar, caffeine, tobacco, alcohol, phosphoric acid, and lack of exercise.

So the question is , how much calcium does someone who is living healthy need. Well, the WHO has set their recommendation at 450 mgs a day. While, noone knows exactly for sure who much you need, if you are living healthy, the 450 mgs a day is a safe estimate and one that can easily be reached on a healthy raw food vegan diet.

Peace and Love..........John

I agree with you, John, but certain minerals I wouldn't recommend having an,"oh, just wing it!" attitude about; the signs of deficiency can be subtle and serious internal problems could already have set in before they manifest.

Someone needs to start an online nutrition database just for vegetarians, you know, tabula rasa and start over with the latest modern vitamin and mineral studies. Look at what is bioavailable in soil, check common crops for Brix ratings. Do a massive overhaul.

As I write this, I grow daunted. It would be an almost impossible undertaking! So, I guess, being mindful of the nutrient RDAs we already have, while being aware of their origins, seems a prudent place to start.

Great points Tam and the biggest problem we have with all of this is the Soil Fertility. We can do all of the calculations in the world to ensure we are getting everything we need, but if the Soil is Deficient, so is our Food. And then, we have the absorption issue - we could be eating the best Food ever, but what good does it do us if we can’t assimilate it?

So the obvious solution to all of this is to be Tested periodically, which brings me to the April 2012 Ejuva Newsletter below. Charles brings up some interesting points, but he too is missing a few Pieces to the Puzzle.

Peace and Love……….John

EJUVA NEWSLETTER
~The Most Accurate and Cutting Edge Raw Information Available for The Raw Food Enthusiast~
The War Between Raw Food Leaders

Greetings!

Thanks for taking the time to check out our newsletter! Are raw plants alone enough to produce health in the human body? Are they enough to actually reverse disease? This debate has been ongoing for much longer than I have been a raw fooder. On one hand the hygienists claim uncooked whole plants are all that's required. Many Hygienists claim there are people out there that are actually lying to you so they can line their pockets selling you fractionated foods in the form of pills and powders called "supplements." The hygienists say, "Supplements do not work!" While on the other hand the pro-supplement people claim one "must" add supplements to whole uncooked plants to achieve maximum health because plants in and of themselves are not enough! Since both of these ideologies cannot possibly be correct, one must be flawed. Which one is it? Today we'll take a close look at the supplementation debate. We'll break it down for you and give you our perspective. A perspective that I'm sure most of you have never heard before. In the end, you'll be able to make a more informed decision as to whether or not supplements are right for you.

Our perspective is based on our combined 42 years of raw food therapy and the 10's of thousands around the world that we've helped (Dr. Robbins and I) regain their health. Dr. Robbins and I have done the experiments of raw foods only vs. raw foods with supplementation. We strongly feel we have the correct answer because unlike most, we actually pull blood, urine and saliva to find out what the body itself has to say about the subject. In conclusion to our years of testing the human body with and without supplementation, we feel that neither side is 100% correct, nor 100% incorrect. As strange as that may sound, it's a true statement. Here's why:
Enjoy!
Starting with the Hygienists:
They claim all one needs are raw plants and the body will do the rest. Health will then abound! The body is a self-contained entity and only needs what it is designed to consume. This sounds great in theory! It's easy to subscribe to! But, this theory is not without its flaws. You see, this ideology requires both perfect foods and perfect bodies. Unfortunately, neither one exists!

What if today's foods are severely lacking in nutrients, even if organic? What if the healthiest of westernized bodies have a difficult time at best pulling the nutrients out of raw foods? What if food was NEVER meant to heal us? What if food was only meant to get us through the day? That is a new concept for many raw fooders, especially hygienists.

Dr. Robbins and I believe that nature/God/ innate intelligence (whichever you choose to call it) is perfect! If you give nature a perfect egg and seed, a perfect baby will be created each and every time, 1 million out of 1 million times. Not sometimes, not kind of, not 7 out 10 times, but EVERY single time! The complexity of that miracle is mind boggling! You see, nature only knows how to do things one way. It only knows how to put the egg and seed together one way. That way is perfection, it knows no other way. It is only when man gets involved are imperfections realized. It's only when the egg or seed or both have been altered in some way do the issues begin. At that point nature does the best with what it is given. Some babies win the nutritional lottery and grow for a hundred years while completely ignoring the laws of nature. While others are born with their stomachs on the outside of their body. So many babies never had the chance to break the laws of nature yet they are not perfect.

To understand what I'm about to say you must realize that defects of the body are man-made, not nature-made! In fact, we are all held nutritionally liable for all the wrongs our ancestors consumed all the way up to what we are consuming today. We are all the result of what was passed down to us known as genetic inheritance.

If life were perfect and no nutritional wrongs ever occurred, no where in our DNA does it say our bodies must make us sick sometime during our lifetime. It's just not in the blueprints! The point is, food was never intended to heal us, this because we were never intended to be sick. Dr. Robbins and I believe the original intention for the nutrients contained in plants were to get us through the day, not to heal us. By the way, getting us through the day is no small, simple, meager task. We all create trillions of new cells daily while performing more than one billion metabolic functions per second, every second of every day, 24/7.

JR Insert: This guy does NOT understand why we get Sick or he does NOT understand the Law of Cause & Effect as do the Hygienists. However, the Hygienists do NOT understand the Ripple Effect, thereby, necessitating a Temporary Need for Supplementation.

What If Organic Plants were lacking in Nutrients?

If raw organic foods are lacking in nutrients, we will obviously have a hard enough time just accomplishing the goal of getting our bodies through the day, let alone pay back our nutritional debts. According to The Department of Agriculture and Rutgers University our plants are severely lacking in nutrients.

They both conduct annual examinations of our foods to determine our foods nutritional content. Sadly, they both reported that our foods are substantially declining in nutrients. We were all meant to consume wild-crafted foods. Wild crafted foods are grown by nature and contain 10 to 20 times more nutrients in them than today's best organically grown plants. These nutritionally dense wild-crafted foods were meant just to get us through the day, not to heal us.

Raw fooders, especially hygienists, believe by consuming raw plants the nutrients contained therein will automatically go to healing their bodies. This is not exactly accurate. Our bodies are NOT programmed for health! Rather, they are programmed for survival. Your body's first priority is just to get you through the day, not to heal you! Then, if by chance there are any nutrients left over at the end of the day, the body will use those for healing. Because our current organic raw foods are lacking in nutrients, there are barely enough to get us through the day. There are not enough to get us through the day and replenish our nutritional deficits (aka heal you). Trying to heal this way is like trying to pay back a million dollar debt at a dollar a day, it’s NEVER going to happen!

What if You Have Digestive Issues?
Even if our foods contained enough nutrients to both get you through the day and pay back your debts, your body can't utilize all the nutrients! The second problem with the hygienic philosophy is it requires a perfect body. None of the thousands of subscribers reading this newsletter have perfect digestion or perfect assimilation. At Ejuva we have a test called Health By Mail. Two of the things tested are digestion and assimilation. This is done through a measurement of Indican. Indican is a measurement of rotting nutrients in one’s body. This, so that we may set up a proper program for their body's individual needs. We have NEVER found someone that digested and assimilated 100% of the nutrients of the already nutritionally deficient raw organic plants.

The other day the most popular hygienist on earth that I know of wrote me saying, "Charles, I read all your newsletters and I agree with every word they say but, I do not agree with what you wrote this time. People receive more nutrients from solid food then they do from juice!" I had written a newsletter on the importance of juicing, claiming we get more nutrients from juice then we do from solids. He went on to say, "We leave most of the food behind (the pulp) when we juice, so juice cannot possibly offer the body more nutrients!" My jaw hit the floor when I read that. This person is the BEST the hygienic community has to offer! My thought was, if he is wrong about something as simple as this, it certainly is possible even likely that he is wrong about the big picture too.

Now, what he said makes perfect sense in theory as do all the hygienic theories. But, this is basic food chemistry. I know that his statement is sell-able to the general public, but I also know it's DEEPLY flawed. This because the human body is completely and totally incapable of digesting and assimilating pulp, aka cellulose. As humans we cannot break down cellulose into nutrients or glucose, this is because cellulose is far too complex for our bodies to break down. Only the animals with 3 and 4 stomachs can convert cellulose into usable energy or nutrients. Humans use cellulose for two reasons. First, to prevent us from over eating. Secondly, its fiber so that we may @#$%&. Even if we could break down cellulose it contains only trace amounts of nutrients. We found the biggest robbers of nutrients are the actual acts of digestion and assimilation. On average we lose 25 to 50% of all the nutrients of the already deficient solids because we are all so compromised. With juice, we receive 99% of the nutrients because we digest through a process called osmosis.

Another very well-meaning hygienist with a popular website recently wrote me saying she knows raw foods cure diseases! I wrote back saying, "Prove it!!! We've heard all the rumors over the years that food alone heals. However, every time we ask for proof the claimant runs for the hills." I asked her for just one medical file that proved one was diseased, then consumed only foods, and as a result was pronounced cured. Just one medical file on the entire planet that made that statement. As Dr. Robbins and I have looked for these files all over earth for many years. None exist!!! At least we can't find one.

She wrote back saying, "I know what raw foods have done for my own body!" I said to her, "I have no doubt raw plants are the core nucleus of health. I have no doubt you are less sick because you eat raw foods. But, what about those on a high protein diet? Eating nothing but cooked meat? Their Blood Pressure drops, their Cholesterol drops, their waist lines shrink, as did yours. Are they healthy? Of course not, they are though, less sick. As are you."

I shared with her that recently a raw fooder was going to give up raw foods as every time she ate them her stomach bloated with great pain. She had tried the hygienists approach but nothing had worked. So she did Ejuva's Health By Mail test and it was discovered that she had both Cholecystitis and stomach parasites. No plants can cure that! I could not tell you how many thousands we've helped around the world with the aid of supplements because food alone could not and did not do the trick. Still, this hygienist felt raw foods were indeed enough. I wondered how did she know since she has only tried things one way. NEVER once in her entire life bothering to try even a single supplement, or to at least test to see if her theory is true. She has no clinic, no patients, never reversed a disease, never drew blood, or urine, and is self-educated. Yet, all the while confidently putting down those that both use and recommend supplements.

So, I invited her to test. To find out if her theories are correct or not. I told her that if she tests perfect I would immediately cease my teachings and beliefs. But, if she did not test perfect she'd have to do the same. It turns out testing is like Kryptonite to the Hygienists. I choose to believe it's because testing is very revealing and sometimes people are very fearful of the truth. This because truth has an awful habit of proving people wrong. Why else would one not want to know their level of health especially, if they're in the business of health? I mean think about it, never testing allows you to say you are right because you are never confronted with the truth (test results). Not having a clinic means you can talk all you want but nothing is ever proven, never actually receiving any sick people means you never have to actually reverse their diseases.

In fact, after being raw for some 10 years I had my blood drawn for a blood drive. I had bragged to the nurse that whomever is lucky enough to receive my blood will be leaping buildings in a single bound because I am a 10 -year raw foodist! When she tested my blood my cholesterol was through the roof! I hadn't eaten a piece of meat in 10 years! This inspired me to have further testing done. My Progesterone was so high that Dr. Robbins jokingly said I must have had a sex change operation. My D was Low, B12 was low, testosterone was low, etc., etc. Was 10 years of raw food alone not enough time to heal my body? Obviously not, though I had lost 65 pounds and was rid of some horrible dis-eases, I also had way more energy, I @#$%& well, slept well, and became sick less often. But, was I totally healthy? Obviously not! Yet, I had absolutely no outward symptoms. I'm telling you, testing is the biggest teller of truth out there! Then, the biggest deal of all happened. Ninety days of proper supplements accomplished what 10 years of raw food alone could not. Think about that. Further, it often takes something called metabolic enzymes not found in foods to jump start a spleen or pancreas, that's how far off they are! Sometimes, it even requires surgery!

I remember my friend Paul Nisan announcing his less than excellent test results after being raw for more than a decade. I have tested many raw food leaders over the years, all with less than stellar results. This inspired me to test raw food only vs. raw foods with proper supplements. Not only do the people on raw foods with supplements test at higher levels of health than those on food alone, they also became healthy MUCH quicker than those consuming raw foods alone! There is no way to logically argue those facts. Also, I've never met a person who ate a wild-crafted, mono, seasonal, perfect, 100% raw plant diet every day of their life. This is yet another great reason for supplementation.

Over the years I have met many Hygienists in fact, I have done water fasts on a few occasions with them. Though a little fanatical about the capabilities of raw foods they all were some of the kindest people I've ever met. I can honestly say, I truly WISH food was enough!

So, if the Hygienists are wrong, the other side must be right!

Not exactly! Here's where it gets a bit tricky. Most supplements are GARBAGE and do more harm than good! This is because most are synthetic, made from chemicals. Making the hygienists almost correct! However, there are supplements that are simply the nutrients that came directly from raw plants. We all agree that removing the cellulose from solids will give us juice. Then you simply remove the water from the juice and what's left over are the alive nutrients, aka supplements. Nutrients are the most important part of the plant, and the water is added back in when you consume the supplement (via glass of water). Not everybody has the time or desire to be constantly juicing. A supplement is juice without the water and like juice requires virtually no digestion or assimilation. So again, you get much more out of them then you do solids.

Arbitrarily grabbing supplements off shelves or websites just because he or she claims you need them is guaranteed to harm you more then help you. Taking supplements your body does not require insures you will have less nutrients not more even if the supplements are plant based and alive.

The sellers of these supplements say, "It's OK to consume their supplements even if you don't need them because they are water soluble. Your body will just pee out what it doesn't use!" There is some truth to that but, they are failing to mention that your body cannot do that for free! It costs valuable nutrients, enzymes and energy to place these extra nutrients into your urinary tract. Thus insuring that you will have less nutrients in your body than before you paid for the supplements. I have a list of every vitamin and mineral known to man. This list entails the symptoms of not enough and the side effects of too much. Neither too much, nor not enough can produce health in the human body. For instance, too much C harms your red blood cells. Too much of any nutrient is bad!

Then there are the fat soluble supplements like D3. If your body does not need them, you won't pee them out, they will simply plug up your liver! Around my home, warehouse and office as you may well imagine there are plenty of supplements. I noticed my wife pounding down the D3. I asked her why? She named off all these "pro's" that stated in their writings that all raw fooders are in need of D3. My wife and I then left for "Jimbo's" an organic grocery store near our home. I saw her place Jameths' (brilliant guy, makes great supplements) "Sun Warrior" protein in our cart. I took it out and placed it back on the shelf. My wife went ballistic on me, "How dare I dictate what she eats!" She lit me up in the grocery store! So I took her to my office and drew her blood. Guess what, her D was at toxic levels and she had perfect protein levels. In other words, she need not supplement with protein because what she was doing gave her the perfect amount of protein and too much is bad!

So I gave her the Health By Mail test and she did need, after 12 years of raw foods I might add, B12, Calcium, Zinc, and something to soften her arteries as they were getting less pliable then they should be. I guarantee you randomly guessing at your body's needs, and then guessing again to know when to stop taking your self-imposed supplementation regiment, will produce more harm in your body and wallet than help. So in that sense the Hygienists are again correct!
The Proper Way to Supplement:

If food is not enough, which it clearly is not (nor should you guess or take ones word for it on what your body's supplemental needs are), how then should it be done? The ONLY possible way to know what your body is deficient is to test! This will insure you are not guessing at which supplements to consume. The only possible way to know when to stop the supplements is to re-test. This is how true health is obtained! Find out what you are lacking, then find out when you are no longer lacking. Does that make sense?

Both sides agree that Nutritional deficiencies are a main factor in obtaining disease. Ejuva has put together a test that is done from the privacy your own home (no matter where you live) that will test every nutrient known to mankind. Then we took this test a couple steps further as it also tests for Parasites, Candida, Heavy Metals, Digestion, Assimilation, Allergies, Infections, Hormones, it even scans every organ and gland in your body among other important tests, all in one test. No DVD, Cd, book, eBook, lecture, retreat, raw food, or guesses on earth can provide that much information for your body's health!! The results will dictate a list of recommended supplements and an overall program in writing that if followed properly will allow your body to heal itself and achieve maximum health. You will have a custom tailored program for your body's individual needs written by both Dr. Robbins and myself along with proper supplements delivered right to your front door.

Most consider testing a one-time proposition and then they're done. Or, that our test results can be instantly altered just by eating or drinking something. Neither are true!. I personally test 4 X's per year, every 3 to 4 months. This because that's about how long it takes for most supplements to do their jobs. I found that when one deficiency fills in another tends to pop up. This is dependent on what you've been eating and what your stresses have been. I simply stop the old supplement that is now at normal levels and start a new one to fill the new deficiency. Like a car, maintenance on the body is never ending!

Some people argue that testing is too expensive. Ejuva's Health Through the Mail test costs about $17.00 per week. I feel that fee is inexpensive relative to all that is being tested. I feel that this particular 17 bucks per week is so important it should be included in one’s household budget as prominent as your house payment, utilities, and groceries. To not have testing included in your monthly budget is to me nearly the same as leaving raw plants out of your diet all together, it’s that important! And, all Health by Mail clients will receive wholesale pricing on commercial juicers and blenders if needed, for life!
In closing, nutrients are not the only aspect in obtaining and maintaining health. We all require sunshine and exercise. We need to cleanse the toxins/parasites/yeast/metals and the like from our bodies as our bodies cannot do this on its own. Most of all we need a mental attitude or outlook that is conducive to health. But, I think we would all agree that nutrients are a game changer when it comes to health or lack thereof. If you are interested in finding out where your nutritional levels lie, plus a whole lot more. I hope you will give Health Through the Mail a try, as it is the most accurate nutritional testing available on Earth.

Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments regarding nutritional testing. I can be reached at 866 GO EJUVA (463 5882) Internationally it's 909 496 3252 or info@ejuva.com.

Sincerely,

Charles Partito N.D./ Raw Nutritionist
Counselor of Natural Health
Ejuva

John,

What a provocative treatise! This part amused me:

Quote

Another very well-meaning hygienist with a popular website recently wrote me saying she knows raw foods cure diseases! I wrote back saying, "Prove it!!! We've heard all the rumors over the years that food alone heals. However, every time we ask for proof the claimant runs for the hills." I asked her for just one medical file that proved one was diseased, then consumed only foods, and as a result was pronounced cured. Just one medical file on the entire planet that made that statement. As Dr. Robbins and I have looked for these files all over earth for many years. None exist!!! At least we can't find one.

on account of it suggests the author is unaware of the existence of the Gerson Therapy, which is unbelievable! Still, perhaps he is discounting it for some reason, and I found the rest of what he writes to be very interesting.

What I want to know, though, is what the Ejuva testing parameters are based on? If it's the standard evaluation ratios that we are talking about here, well, what does that mean? If the base you are founded on is rickety, it doesn't matter how stable the superstructure is, right? I know I sound like I'm contradicting my earlier post above

Panchito Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is what I take.


Cheers Panchito the zinc one sounds great!

The magnesium oil I like it that you can apply it on the skin, especially for pains (im thinking after exercise?) However my daily magnesium intake is around 120-150% recommended dose, which is another reason I was thinking of supplementing calcium..

>Banana ice-cream rocks!<

Cheers John, im aware of the need to be careful with supplements, but defficiency in calcium and zinc can be serious and i would rather not to take the chance.

>Banana ice-cream rocks!<

For zinc, I've decided to go with zinc glycinate amino acid chelate, as it appears to be one of the most bioavailable forms.

Still looking for a good calcium supplement, any suggestions appreciated!

>Banana ice-cream rocks!<

My understanding is that calcium citrate is one of the more bioavailable forms of calcium.

<<<What I want to know, though, is what the Ejuva testing parameters are based on?>

Good question - I haven’t had a chance to look into their testing parameters.

pborst Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My understanding is that calcium citrate is one of
> the more bioavailable forms of calcium.

Seconded and zinc citrate is a good absorbable form of Zinc also.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

Great thanks guys, will look for calcium citrate.

>Banana ice-cream rocks!<