+1 for Bryan, he's been saying this for a long time.

[www.time.com]

i think part of the problem with herbs / vitamins etc is that people feel the need to use them ALL THE TIME.

one of my teachers was from india at the massage therapy school and it was his beilief that herbs etc were important but only to be used when symptoms of need arrose

example taking huge amounts of echinacia for instance at some point whatever flu/cold bug is floating around is gonna get ya at some point .. rather use the echinacea when feeling the cold coming around not use it 365 days a year to stave off colds/flus your probably gonna get some strain of it anyways if you currently reside in a relatively unhealthy body to begin with

it made some sense to me, i stopped overtime taking all the pills potions lotions etc and honestly i cant say i feel any better or worse off for it lol

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

I only read a little, but it looked like another trashy ezine article.

I think Bryan and Time/FDA/CODEX were coming from two different places with that statement.

Love the part where the articles says "Perhaps the greatest potential risk, however, lies in possible interaction with pharmaceutical drugs you are already taking."

I have some thoughts about this:

1) Time Magazine is a mainstream news propaganda magazine. This is part of the allopathic medicine con: criticize herbs, supplements, vitamins and minerals, and maybe no one will notice how many hundreds of thousands of people are dying because of pharmaceuticals and medical interventions. Haven't you noticed how the FDA is fast-tracking new drugs through the 'testing' (cough cough) procedure, and so often they have to be removed from the market within 1-5 years because of massive adverse effects?

2) I hardly ever use herbs or supplements, but would you really want them to disappear? I certainly would rather my husband (who's not a raw foodist, but lives quite healthfully) continue using probiotics, fish oil, garlic and vitamin D rather than having only deadly allopathic medicines as an option.

3) Codex and the FDA are also about food. We should be concerned about these conventional medically oriented, non-nutrition oriented bodies deciding what the future of our food supply is going to look like.

Sharrhan:


[www.facebook.com]

I see news headlines about deadly conventional meds every day. Here are a few very recent ones:

deadly diabetes med
[cbs3.com]

deadly combos of rx meds
[abclocal.go.com]

contaminated drugs a global problem
[news.google.com]

[I certainly would rather my husband (who's not a raw foodist, but lives quite healthfully) continue using probiotics, fish oil, garlic and vitamin D ]

Except for probiotics (which aren't necessary, just eat a high fiber diet to generate a good population of healthy microbiota), D, calcium, and fish oil also have a dark side.

high intakes of calcium, vitamin d may harm the aging brain
[www.medicinenet.com]

fish oil: no clear benefit, clinically important harm cannot be excluded.
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Also this is a vegan forum. You can get DHA and EPA, too from algae now. But it isn't clear that there is anything to be gained by doing so, except maybe for some pregnant women with known ALA-EPA conversion problems. I'd probably use it in that case.

[ I hardly ever use herbs or supplements, but would you really want them to disappear?]

I am not sure I would like them to completely disappear. But increasingly I think that the only people getting a clear benefit are the sellers.

I still take B12 and D2. It costs about $4/year.

I'm cutting back on both of them, though, especially the D2.

I've used herbal extracts with great success. One especially for car sickness worked fabulously with both me and my daughter, to where we could go to my sister's house in the Poconos without feeling nauseous. It was like a miracle drug to us. Herbs are healing, so says the bible. Or is that the Essene Gospel of Peace.

Big Pharma is trying to take over the herbs, patent them, so they'll be inferior and cost a fortune. And it'll be against the law for us to grow them, like it is in Germany now, where they have CODEX. Probably make synthetic herbs soon.

Did you know that most Vitamin E in supplements is synthetic? I just found that out recently. The Vitamin E in Burts Bees Lip Balm is not natural.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/29/2007 02:26AM by Lois.

Here's an example of what they're doing to herbs -- making them unnatural and harmful --

[www.planetherbs.com]

I know a lot of raw foodists are opposed to herbs, and think that there is no need ever for anything other than food and maybe fasting, but I think if we grew herbs and harvested them ourselves and used them in moderation with our food, much the way the Taoists did, maybe we would actually be much healthier. Maybe!-- I don't know! But then these characters come along and make a big business out of them, and we're (quite rightly) turned off. Or maybe they're completely unnecessary for us. Still, even if so, I think of all my friends who are cooked vegetarians and vegans who use herbal remedies to heal themselves, and I wouldn't want them to suffer the loss of these valuable remedies that they really need. Sometimes we have to think of other people's needs, not just where we're at with Natural Hygiene or 80/10/10.

And in terms of having them regulated, they are plants and leaves and roots and flowers. How can we seriously let the FDA or the Codex Alimentarius Commission take plants away from us and make it illegal or well-night impossible for us to use them? Just seems so screwed up.

Well I'm sorry I mentioned f*** oil. I don't use it and I wasn't recommending it, so I didn't feel like I was committing a board infraction. ;-p

Sharrhan:


[www.facebook.com]

Hi Kwan, glad you posted that. I feel the same about everything you said here, just didn't post it.

st. john's wort caused me to have a grand mal seizure. the problem with herbs is the same as it is for "main stream" medicine...you never know how your body and mind will react!!!!!!

pihourova Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> st. john's wort caused me to have a grand mal
> seizure. the problem with herbs is the same as it
> is for "main stream" medicine...you never know how
> your body and mind will react!!!!!!



True. Are you disposed to having grand mal seizures........ do you know why you had it........ were you taking too much st. johns wort..........just curious, cuz that sounds like a serious reaction!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/29/2007 05:58PM by aquadecoco.

Yes, I'm curious, too. How did you take the St. John's Wart? Was it an extract or just the herb or in a capsule, tablet? What dose was it? Was it pure St. John's Wart or did it have anything else added to it? Alcohol, magnesium stearate (that gives me a bad sinus headache) whatever.

I'm thinking if a person just goes out and picks a handful of a herb and eats it, it would be beneficial or harmless, but if a person eats an extract or capsule that is concentrated, or a huge amount, that would throw them off balance.

I'm sure we're meant to just eat the herb right from the garden.

Lois

"I'm sure we're meant to just eat the herb right from the garden"



yes - the other stuff must be heated, etc.

i was taking it in pill form. it was 10 years ago so i do not remember the brand or the dose. i was taking it like 3x a day for the stress of college life in the usa. i did not speak english as well as i do now and i was working full time and was a full time student as well.

it was the first and only seizure i ever had. extensive testing was done by a neurologist. including a test that required me to stay awake for 32 hours!!!

they could find nothing wrong with me after all that testing. and they even accused me of taking drugs! i was not taking anything except the st. john's wort.

my mother did extensive research from a medical library in bulgaria, my native country. she called me like a week after the doctors told me they found nothing and told me she found in a russian medical journel that st. john's wort has caused seizures.

i have never taken medication for this and i have not had any problems since! (fingers crossed!)

I think herbs have their place. some people sware by their use in certain cleansing actvities and I have no reason to doubt them. I think it isn't naive to think that certain foods have 'medicinal' properties that act in beneficial ways on un-natural bodies. Not just their existance as a foreign 'toxin' to be eliminated along with the ancient gunk...which is usually the reason given when positve results are the outcome.

however

just think about what a bad message supplements say about the process of obtaining health and about alternative health and 'health food stores'. the waste of energy they are to produce and shelve. Its a travesty, and if the government removes em, so be it. If they nix supplements and keep big pharma pumping...

I see NO hyprocricy


we have no 'right' to these things. only a right to health. and the basic tools will always be there if one wants to seek them out. of course individuals/organizations can make it quite hard on these seekers, but have a harder time doing so then in the past IMO.

>"If they nix supplements and keep big pharma pumping... I see NO hyprocricy"<

Wha??????? =:-O

Bye bye supplements and no more herbs at my local co-op. Somehow I'm not okay with that.

Sharrhan:


[www.facebook.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/30/2007 01:44AM by kwan.

Kwan wrote:

Quote

Sometimes we have to think of other people's needs, not just where we're at with Natural Hygiene or 80/10/10.

This is an odd idea. From my own healing, I've discovered that herbs are totally unnecessary for excellent health. Because of my experience with healing myself, I am totally unconcerned whether or not herbs are generally available to people, although I can see the benefit of requiring prescriptions for herbs, since they are definitely medicinal, and as medicines they have the capability to poison.

In my view of reality, herbs are a perceived need of the herb takers, as I am pretty sure its possible to heal whatever those folks are dealing with if they just took out the elements of their diets that are destroying their health, as well as including healthful habits and practices that improve and increase health. Given that I view their "need" as only a perceived need as opposed to a necessity, I am hard pressed to want to take any actions to furthur a potential new industry and future political machine, the herb and supplement industry.

Given that I don't eat meat any more, and many of us here fall into that category, would we get very upset if a group of meat farmers were to use to diabolical political means to double or triple the cost of beef to the consumers to increase their profits? I don't know about you, but I could care less about this, even if it is unfair to the beef consumers, since the beef is no more healthier for the consumer than those herbs they think they need.

Just my 2 cents.

Bryan,
I care about the commonweal, not just myself. How very 'odd.' I care about the needs of a lot of people who will never be raw foodists-- my husband included!-- and they're going to really suffer if all they have available to them is allopathic medicine. Do you really want their options limited to the 10 or 15 supplements allowed by Codex (one of which is fluoride, believe it or not), and all other herbs and supplements declared illegal? What if it was your own mother or best friend who needed an herb, and it was either banned or it was only available from a doctor at a 1000% mark-up? (A bottle of echinacea is over $150 in Germany under Codex today.)

We are living in a time when I think no matter how true we are to our own personal vision of correct dietary practice and lifestyle-- which is admirable and all that-- we've got to be open to the needs of society and the advancement of the culture we live in.

Just my 2 gold coins.

Sharrhan:


[www.facebook.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/05/2007 04:36AM by kwan.

Bryan,

My biggest concern with Codex is that it aims to irradiate the produce that most of us count on.

Kit

Kit,
Thanks! You took the words right out of my mouth. It's the food irradiation that is my #1 concern.

Sharrhan:


[www.facebook.com]

I still think herbs are beneficial in certain instances. Also, homeopathic medicine. I've experienced and seen how they work with my family and it's amazing, especially my favorite cold remedy. It's like a miracle.

Also love aromatherapy.

What's the difference between eating herbs and eating edible flowers and weeds and greens? It's all stuff that grows out of the ground. It's when they alter them and add other ingredients that they're detrimental.

And some other supplements -- like glucosamine -- are totally beneficial. It was a miracle to my sister who had extreme osteo-arthritis to where she couldn't garden, type, or drive much, and I told her about it and her fingers healed almost 100% and now she does everything. My husband also swears by it for a leg/joint problem. There are many more vitamin/mineral supplement stories like hers. Don't take them away and don't let Big Pharma take them over and adulterate them.

Lois

I think what Bryan is saying is that these homeopathic and herbal 'treatments' remove symptoms without addressing the cause. therefore why shouldn't they be regulated AS treatments

I think for some people 'remedies' are just their path, what they are ready to accept for their lifestyle, right. but people should be aware that these things DO act like pharmaceuticals, not that they are some 'natural' cure. they might have 'less' toxin, whatever that means

if a bottle of echineca is $150 does that really matter if in time echinecia is shown to do pretty much zilch? All manner of people make a killing off people slowly dieing..its not big evil black ops man in boardrooms bent on destroying the planet.

if their goal is to irradiate all produce (which due to the growing organic and foodie movments I don't think will get very far) It is because they actually think disease is transported through these things. If we concentrated on showING that - that isn't possible, and NOT defending our similar practices of 'health by bottle' and paranoia we would be better off.