If you are Christian or Catholic then you believe you will go to "heaven".

If you are buddhist or of the Hindu sect, u believe u will be reincarnated.

are these two things mutually exclusive? or can they go together?

i guess the first question is "what is heaven"?

maybe someone's idea of heaven is to be "immortal" which is what you are if you keep reincarnating

as much as i find my life intriguing, i don't know if i would want to be immortal


then again, I just may BE immortal without knowing it ( I don't know how many lifetimes I have lived prior to this one or how many more I will traverse in the future)

If i wish to put a stop to this, and just " not believe " in reincarnation or "going to heaven", will that mean that neither will happen for me and I will just be recycled back into the soil?


there is that outrageously overmarketed documentary " The Secret" which says that what you wish/believe is what you'll get

So, does that mean, you can control your "afterlife"?

If i believe that when I die, I will go to a place in the sky and be blissing out, will that occur? ( Frankly, this image is kind of soothing to me instead of repeating the human life over and over and OVER again even though everyone says how "rare" and "sacred" it is to be reborn as a human.

It baffles me, really.

I am intrigued and fascinated at how we can control our destiny.

for eternity

both religions elude to eternity

and if one is not religious,

any Physics 101 course will tell you that neither matter ( or energy.. same thing) can be created or destroyed

That is pretty much saying that not only are all humans immortal

but all objects are eternal as well.. .just transforming into something else

yeah, the very cycles of nature is all about recycling

which means that I could have part dinosaur in me if a tyrannosaurus rex disintegrated into the soil and eventually aeons later ( like now) there was a seed that sprouted from that soil and i ate an apple from that tree

i always wondered about this

frankly, I didn't really love " The Secret" because it failed to elucidate
Part TWO of the equation ( kinda important) which is that people must TAKE ACTION on their desires

for those who never saw " The Secret" , the gist of the movie is : (what you believe or dwell on, u will get )


the thing is though, that... strangely enough ( or maybe not) when I think a lot about a certain issue I SWEAR!!!!!!!!

it keeps popping up over and over and OVER again ( whether i like it or not)

it is like some bizarre and mystic JOKE from the universe

for example, let's say that i don't like something and i haven't resolved that issue but i keep thinking about it

then sooner or later, ( it seems to be UNNERVINGLY inevitable), its like people around me will become these weird mystic mouth pieces for my issue

and they will start talking about it ( without my permission )

or eluding to it

or referring to it

it will pop up in movies, books etc.

i don't get it

but it has happened in the GOOD direction as well so many times so that makes up for all the times it happened in a bad way

i will focus on a certain thing.. then it will have double, triple, quadruple
effects..and i will see it over and over again

which is why i think that my thoughts intents really ARE powerful

so i was wondering if i could extend this into the afterlife

and can i even extend it into other people's afterlife?

like when people's friends or family members pass away

and they just BELIEVE that their souls are eternal and will see them again

will their wish be granted?

i hope so

i really do

i wish to be with the ones i love

FOREVER

and

ever

otherwise, i don't see the point

either that

or it just continually breaks my heart thinking that its finite

the sappy hollywood movies say " Love never dies :it is eternal"

that is one of the few thing that I will give hollywood credit for

i feel its true

maybe hollywood knows something after all



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/13/2008 10:31AM by la_veronique.

LaV.
My opinion is that you are searching for validation for a truth which states ( that what exists is a product of what you believe ), by examining the products of this truth, to see "if" you can see your beliefs within it ? But if that truth is correct, then what ever you examine already IS a product of what you believe, and the searching then creates the corresponding unknowingness by virtue of what it is. i.e... if you wonder, and what ever you consider about it is real, then wondering is being / believing it to be unknown.

To put it in other words, its like trying to find an answer in something which will only ever have an answer when you give it one. Thats what I've found for myself anyway.

LaV I think you keep bumping into these ideas in your comings and goings with people because your subconcious is trying to solve a problem, something deeply embedded inside of you that you have long supressed.

Regarding souls, that seems to me an effect of the grey matter development between the limbic system and the prefrontal and temporal lobes--this area is where compassion, empathy, and the moral compass are seated. You can see the differences on an MRI. Some people (psychopaths, sociopaths, anti-social disordered) don't have it. Grey matter is what conducts the impulses from the lower brain. With these 'not enough grey matter' folks the signals are firing but they don't get through. The result is a person without a soul, without conscience, unfettered by the normal wish to avoid causing pain. Some of these people even get pleasure out of inflicting pain. It makes them feel powerful and important.

The brain and its neural networks decay when we die. Some people leave a mark with their actions and their thoughts and remain in our memories. That's the "eternal" part.

I really can't envision a heaven. It would be equivalent to feeling good all the time. There have been studies on those "feel good" chemicals that are released when we are in love, eat a very delicious meal, snort cocaine, etc. and the funny thing is that the more the chemicals are released, the less receptors the body makes. It's regulated. You can only have it to a point, then you need a bigger and bigger hit to keep up the same feeling. We are wired to feel good sometimes and feel bad sometimes. In normal folks it is probably about even out but in depressed people there is mostly bad feeling.

Hey veronique,

Consciousness, to me, seems to be a very delicate and intricate balance of many neural cells, and once this delicate dance comes to an end, our consciousness and awareness goes with it. There are, as you say, parts of us that will carry on almost forever, such as our basic components, atoms, etc.. and maybe even our memory might live on for some time in other people, but I don't think that we, as a conscious being, will carry on after our death. You seem to suggest that then life somehow "loses it's point (or value)", but to me these circumstances just add even more value to life, making it truly a unique and wonderful experience. If you think of all the trillions of possible living beings that could be on this planet, all the potential combinations between egg and sperm, and realise that we are lucky enough to be graced with the gift of life, and lucky enough to be rational and conscious so as to appreciate relatively more aspects of it, then I should hope that just the "mere" fact of being alive would be seen as an immeasurable luxury that we have. And that our life truly does have meaning, to a large extent that which we choose to give it. This choice and the liberty it implies is also an incredibly profound luxury that we have, I find. Being aware of our fleeting existence, truly just a glimpse in the lifetime of the Universe, should help make us keenly aware of the preciousness of our time on this planet, and truly make us "seize the day". I believe in some ways we can be with the ones we love, in our memories or in our experience of them with other people, in the gifts they gave while alive, or in their enduring impact they had in our lives and character. I don't see us ever joining up with them in a conscious manner though, and perhaps that is not a very comforting thought, that is true. However, I don't think we should be afraid, but instead appreciate what we do have. Easier said than done, I know. If we have trust in our inner strength, and not in some exterior abstract entity, I think we have more of a chance of being truly happy. If we realise our own strength and power and independence of thought, instead of surrendering it to some exterior object, I think life can also be even more appreciated and enjoyed.

Cheers,
J

If you consider the biosphere as a superorganism... or the earth as Gaia, etc... then we can think of ourselves as cells.

When cells die in the body, the lipids, amino acids, etc are recycled and are given new life.

Similarly our cells will be recycled by nature when we die, and our atoms may return again as part of a carbon based being.

Or we can think of an atom itself as an organism.

We are but a massive organization of tiny beings.

Strings, if string theory pans out could be our deepest vibrating selves... always dancing even after we die... so maybe we never truly die... we just take new form in this universe.

"Humans are like the universe becoming aware of itself"... I read that somewhere.

Is a rock aware of itself?

Does a rock know it's a rock?

I think it does... but on a more basic level than say a human knows it's a human.

Can a string still dance if it's done composing my body? I think so.

La_Veronique

What I "hear" you asking is, what is heaven and or eternity and how do you get there? And who has the correct view or truth on this?

Because people think they can have any view they choose on this subject makes it hard for people in the know to just tell it like it is. Like Jose refuseing to acknowledge his creator to his own dimise.

With that being said I will tell it like it is knowing many will counter with thier own blind made up stories. I will not argue with those stories when they happen.

We were all created by God as eternal beings in His image. We will all live for eterntiy. There are only 2 places we will be in. We all choose wich one we will spend eternity in. Just saying this isn't true or you dont believe it will not stop it from happening. God is the creator, we are His, and we have to go by His rules. Most have not been doing that and is why things are so goofed up.

When God created this earth He did it by speaking it into existance. That set up a principal for us to live by. Speach is more powerfull than thought. More so what you say is what you get than what you think. But we are only to speak what is good.

The 4 gospels in the Bible - Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John give Gods perfectly clear directions on how to make it into heaven with Him and not hell. It is not by thinking about it.

Now you will hear others say stuff like this:
There is no god
I am god
holier than thou
there are many paths to heaven
you can make up your own path to heaven
nothing is provable
god is dogma
evolution is god

People can bury and blot out the truth in their "own minds" with the above statements but it wont stop it from being true. They will find this out when it's too late!

All I can do is to speak truth. It's everyone's own choice what they do with it.

elnatural

I'm just glad I'm not "in the know" as elnatural put it.

I think it's coco's sig about how the trick is to be in the Mystery... I like that.

Quote

if what u believe will manifest, can you control your "afterlife"?

If you believe the former it follows that the later is true.

They talk about that on this CD (it's free don't worry).

However I don't believe the universe is quite that simplistic. It has not been in my experience. If we could just "order out of the catalog of the universe" life wouldn't have any excitement or mystery.

I remember when I was a kid, around 8 or 9, entering a contest with my friend in "Nintendo Power" magazine. You got to choose around 30 out of 100 Nintendo games if you won. I remember excitedly circling fifteen and my friend fifteen, arguing over which ones we'd rather play. The whole time we were kinda expecting we'd actually win.

As we could have predicted had we thought about it, we didn't win. But you know what, the process of imagining we'd win & thinking about all those games was kinda fun.

And likely, if we actually won we perhaps might not have even had much fun with all those games. When you've got only a few you really tend to appreciate them.

The afterlife is one of those few things in life I've just resigned myself to not knowing until I get there. If there is an afterlife, great, but I should still enjoy my life now while I'm here. I'm this is all there is (seems the most likely) then I really better enjoy this life for all it offers me!

On second thought, maybe ElNatural is right. He does have a convincing argument (Christianity is right and everyone else is wrong). I'll swear my life over to the cold dead hands of the mythical Jesus Christ just to cover all the bases.

Hey everyone.. I love reading your thoughts. Our diversity is a miracle huh !
I would say though, that judging by how true and accurate what I think about this subject feels, that I am certainly right, and everyone else must be mistaken .

Even IF !, I'm only 1 person in 6 billion living on this planet, which is only 1 planet in a universe of planets numbering more than there are grains of sand. That said, what I think feels absolutely convincing, its gotta be right !! I must be that one gifted being in the universe... I think I shall write it down so that in the future, say 500 million years from now when they are still pondering this question, there will be a chance that the people will be able to get their hands on a copy and learn the "real" truth

Think about it, even if you only consider the conservative estimates of earths human history of a few hundred thousand years, there are still more religions, metaphysical paradigms, and scientific explainations to describe what we are and how we fit in to * than you can shake a stick at. Firstly ( why? ) do we need a definative answer for this and secondly ( what? ) will we get from it ?

I have come to consider that actualy everyone is right, and that we all hold parts to the same puzzle so to speak. The question is.. is your answer serving you well, does it bring you love ?

CB says that he won't ponder the afterlife until he gets there

my question though is " How do you know you haven't ALREADY experienced several afterlifes?"

what if this IS your afterlife ?

Jose,

I like what u said about appreciating life more knowing that it is finite...

it is like if you give someone a TINY bit of golden raw chocolate , they will perhaps savor it more

then again, there is something about my spirit that REFUSES to believe this

and like i said, I don't know the answer

but it isn't good enough for me

sometimes friends or significant others can pass away in the BLINK of any eye
waaaay before their time

and you can't really accept that you will NEVER see them again

if that is the case, what is the point of building ANY relationship if it doesn't have an ETERNAL basis

my soul isn't big enough to just appreciate the fact that they could leave the earth in an instant ( due to an accident or whatever) and that is THAT

seems lame

if that is the case i would rather not have any relationships at all
cuz it would just break my heart when their time comes to step off the train so to speak

why are any of us on here to begin with if it doesn't have some lasting basis?

then again, another part of me is terrified to live forever and ever and ever

maybe it is true that after each life time, a "veil" is put over the "eyes" of our souls so that we don't get too overwhelmed with the infinite amount of lifetimes previous to us

anyhow...i still don't know the answer

and now that i think about it

i don't know which prospect is more hair raising and appalling to me:

1) finite life

or

2) infinite life

if it is Number 2, just gently deposit me in "heaven"

where i belong

if i believe in #2 maybe i'll get it

somehow el natural's argument is just what it said in my Physics 101 book

with a moral twist to it

i don't know

maybe its better this way

then again, like i mentioned previously

it is hilarious to think that this might be my forty millionth lifetime

and here I am wondering " gggeeeeezzzz where will i GO after this life is over??"

maybe i'm already a pro at reincarnating and don't even know it

la_veronique Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> CB says that he won't ponder the afterlife until
> he gets there
>
> my question though is " How do you know you
> haven't ALREADY experienced several afterlifes?"
>
> what if this IS your afterlife ?

It's certainly possible I have lived and died dozens of times already. I certainly don't remember but then again, I don't remember being a baby either.

I, too, would like to believe that there is an afterlife where all my dead friends (and my dead pussycats) frolic and play, waiting for me. But this is wishful thinking and, again, I won't know 'till I get there so better just to focus on this life since that is all I can control. Dwelling too much about the afterlife and it's potential goodies seems to me like a subtle death wish and I don't want to go down that path.

Hmmm... I was with my dad when he died. It was very peaceful. He was asleep. I was too, with my head on his arm. Suddenly I woke up for no apparent reason. He took his last breath -- a gasp, and as he did, his spirit kissed my spirit goodbye. Then he left. His body was empty. When I looked at his face, all wrinkles had left his face, as did all the worry he had worn on his face (some people have hard lives and you can see it on their faces; he was one of them). He wasn't a religious person, though he did have his beliefs, which seemed to evolve as he got older. He wasn't old when he died (61). Also, at the same time, my brother, who lived in the next county, woke up because the dog was barking, His wind chimes were moving but there was no wind. He went downstairs and the dog was looking out over the vineyard behind his house. My brother got that same feeling that my dad's spirit kissed by brother's spirit goodbye too. And that he left, not ceased to exist. My dad's body was empty -- an empty vessel. The experience was beautiful, and after that experience, I was no longer afraid to die.

beautiful

i know what you mean

too beautiful for description even though you did a wonderful job of describing what happened

i am not afraid to die either

i just love certain people SOOOOOOOO damn much!!!!

that i wish to be with them in some form or another FOREVER

community builder

i think that you will never be separated from your cats cuz you love them

arugula

i know your dog(s) appreciate the love you give to them
they are smart
so they can feel your love
and some how u will always be with them (i don't know how but i just feel u always will)

i also know that i will be with loved ones forever
don't ask me how

i just know

don't accuse me then of asking a rhetorical question

i say " i know"

cuz i feel that

whether it is true or not

i don't care

i say i "know" anyhow

cuz it seems like the right thing to do

to speak what i "feel" is the truth

i know its true

that may sound crazy since i say " i don't know"

but a part of me "knows"

and it flies against the face of those who say " no, its not possible"

but i don't care

i am happy to let others believe what they believe

i feel ecstatic feeling that i know what i know

crazy me

but i also am just being honest about .... this mystery

in some unknowable way

i don't know why i feel that so strongly

even though its still a mystery to me

must be cuz i WANT to believe it

and hence.... once again, a part of me believes that it is true

because i feel like if i believe it it will BECOME TRUE

so that is why i believe it

understand?

<<sometimes friends or significant others can pass away in the BLINK of any eye
waaaay before their time

and you can't really accept that you will NEVER see them again >>

I know that these situations are hard to deal with, and I feel that most if not all of the religions of this world are in part an attempt to mitigate this loss we feel for our loved ones. It is hard to accept situations where our sense of justice feels ignored, where our sense of fairness is spurned by circumstance. Whereas what I believe will not bring the immediate comfort one can find in religion, or the assurances that an enduring spirit might bring to those in distress, I would argue that comfort, whilst a very humane reaction to seek, does not imply the veracity of the belief from which it is derived.

If we are to step back for a moment, and view the Universe from a distance, is there any reason why humans should be privileged to this eternal life that people speak of? Do other living beings such as bees and polar bears also have eternal spirits which will live on after their death? Is there a heaven for pet goldfish? Yet these living beings should in theory have as much right to expect such a thing as we do, we are quite closely related after all. I find it is only a human centred view of the Universe which would allow us to interpret that everything in existence is for our benefit, that we are the reason for the existence of everything else in the Universe. This view is espoused by most religions in their Creationist arguments which place humans at the centre of Creation. This is understandable from an emotional point of view, as it might help to mitigate loss and provide comfort, but I would argue that this does not seem to correspond with reality. We certainly are a privileged species, in that we possess the highest state of consciousness of any other species on this planet, but we are not in any significant way different to other living beings. If we really do take a look at the Universe from a distance, we would most likely see that actually other species in other planets are even more consciously aware than we are. If we look at the trillions upon trillions of other stars and their corresponding planets, this human centred view of Creation stops ringing true, and the reality that we are a fragile and momentary spark of consciousness in the wider Universe should start to seep in. I would argue that once we are rid of our imposed self-importance, humanity as a whole would behave in more dignified and caring manner.

So my perspective does not provide the metaphysical comfort of religious ideas, but I believe we may find comfort in the sharing of memories with other like minded people, and perpetuating the memory of a loved one in our lives and in our characters. Our very lives can be as a living monument in honour of those loved ones that have passed away. I think in this way one can best render homage to our loved ones, and at the same time find the comfort that we seek. IF you think of eternity as when time starts till time ends, our finite lives are eternal in that sense. And by remembering and honouring our loved ones in our lifetimes we are doing so eternally.

<<if that is the case, what is the point of building ANY relationship if it doesn't have an ETERNAL basis >>

Is there a point for the flowers and the bees to ephemerally join forces on this earth? It is only a glimpse in eternity, but the bees and the flowers work in harmony and their relationship is of critical importance not just to themselves, but in their wider influence to almost all other living beings. In the same way, our relationships, from the most ephemeral to the most deep, derive their value not in the timespan in which they occur, but in the repercussion and influence they have on us and on others.

I think life is beautiful in part because of its fragility and evanescence, it is like a gift of a precious and fragile flower we have to keep and tend to. It does not diminish the beauty of a flower to know that it will run its natural life and then whither. It simply makes the blossom even more special and valuable.

<<my soul isn't big enough to just appreciate the fact that they could leave the earth in an instant ( due to an accident or whatever) and that is THAT

seems lame

if that is the case i would rather not have any relationships at all
cuz it would just break my heart when their time comes to step off the train so to speak

why are any of us on here to begin with if it doesn't have some lasting basis? >>

We are here, I believe, to bring happiness to those that we are in touch with, since even if it is simply happiness of an ephemeral nature, a smile can be a fleeting experience and yet also of a profound significance. There's no grand plan, no ultimate goal, no overarching strategy. We all make our own small plans, according to what we find important. The Universe itself will also one day whither and die, and bury every word I am writing now, long after any memory of me will have faded and been forgotten. I think to be aware of our own limited and fleeting existence is to plant the seeds in our mind that we need to fully appreciate and truly live every moment. I think it also leads to more empathy and compassion, perhaps paradoxically for those that feel there is no morality without religion.

So I feel that if one looks upon our finite life in the right way, it can be a good motivation to appreciate life even more fully, and also the finite relationships that we form.

Cheers,
J

i tried that jose but it didn't work for me

the evanescent thing just haunts me and makes me feel melancholy in the midst of happiness but that's okay.. cuz i channel it in other ways

then again like i said, the thought of living forever and ever is equally vexing in an inexplicable way

so i guess the best thing for me to do is to just stop thinking and

BE

right now, to me, heaven is to "stop thinking and just be"

Yes, that is exactly what I meant, just BE, bring happiness to yourself and those around you. Why should it matter what comes next? We'll cross that bridge when we get to it, as they say

Cheers,
J

Jose
That seems like a curious understanding of self to me. It seems like you have thought out the rational for our life to the nth degree, but base it upon standards given by our human experience without questioning the properties of them. The premise that we are not eternal because we are only human, may be based upon an incomplete understanding of what we are to begin with. If we were to assume that we are only aware of a limited part of ourselves, and that this is what we experience as human, then it would follow that any philosophies which we create based upon this awareness or experience would be limited as well.

One consideration which opens this up to questioning is that if we are our bodies, and our bodies are just a collection of cells formed by atoms in various arrangements, but we are not our individual atoms, then what ARE our atoms ? and why do they form "US" ? If you think about it, every atom in the universe is basicly in a formative relationship with every other. At a cellular level, atoms are connected by the chemical bonds of magnetic attraction. But beyound our body walls they still interact in the same manner, only they have no recognisable boundaries to describe the edge of an individual unit.

Basicly regardless of wether the atoms are forming our bodies or the table next to us, they are interacting... so why would consciousness only arise in the interactions of one selected area of these relationships such as within our brains, and why would it end when they reorganise ?

Just a few thoughts on the subject... My perspective is that we are so much more than just our bodies, and that our consciousness is far more than just a collection of firing neurons within our brains.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2008 12:42AM by Lightform.

Hey lightform,

<<If we were to assume that we are only aware of a limited part of ourselves, and that this is what we experience as human, then it would follow that any philosophies which we create based upon this awareness or experience would be limited as well. >>

Sure, if we become aware of other parts of ourselves then the answer to the original question would indeed change. What other part are you referring to specifically? One can only answer the question honestly and truthfully based on the best available evidence, which may indeed be incomplete at this time. I don't think it provides any insight though to speculate as to what any future evidence might indicate.

<<One consideration which opens this up to questioning is that if we are our bodies, and our bodies are just a collection of cells formed by atoms in various arrangements, but we are not our individual atoms, then what ARE our atoms ? and why do they form "US" ? If you think about it, every atom in the universe is basicly in a formative relationship with every other. At a cellular level, atoms are connected by the chemical bonds of magnetic attraction. But beyound our body walls they still interact in the same manner, only they have no recognisable boundaries to describe the edge of an individual unit.>>

I wouldn't say we are JUST a collection of cells, but rather a remarkable and amazing collection of cells. I suppose that in the same way as different arrangements of pixels on a screen give rise to different pictures, then different arrangements of cells gives rise to different people, in a hugely oversimplified manner of speaking. By the way every atom in the Universe IS NOT in a formative relationship with every other, we are separated from parts of the Universe by event horizons, there are places in the Universe we could not visit even if we travelled at the speed of light, according to present day knowledge. Also, the different forces of Nature have different length scales at which they operate, for example the nuclear forces operate in the tiny scales suitable for atoms, and exponentially vanish outside of a few femtometres. It is true that we generate a very weak magnetic field due to the electrical activity in our bodies, and that this does extend outside of our bodies to some extent. We also distort spacetime a tiny amount due to our mass, and so generate a very weak gravitational field around us. So there will be some very small ambiguity when defining what constitutes US exactly when taking into account these effects. But almost any object would generate these kinds of effects, a lot of which we might agree do not posses consciousness in the human sense. Not everything that has the quality of existence also has the quality of consciousness, I don't think.

<<Basicly regardless of wether the atoms are forming our bodies or the table next to us, they are interacting... so why would consciousness only arise in the interactions of one selected area of these relationships such as within our brains, and why would it end when they reorganise ? >>

I'm arguing that it seems to be the case that conciousness arises specifically when there is a delicate and intricate dance between cells, in our case neural cells. One necessary but not sufficient ingredient is complexity. So for example the table beside us, let us say made of plastic, does not have the required complexity, as one can see buy looking at the regular and ordered polymers from which it is formed. Also, the crystal structure on the glass lying on the table does not have the required complexity as it is a repeating pattern of atoms. In order to have self-awareness or consciousness, a complex and delicate balance of cells seems to be required, something which is not found in every object that exists. I'm saying that once this extremely delicate balance is upset, this self-awareness property ceases to function. Instead of the table you could have given the example of why doesn't consciousness arise from the liver, the spleen or the lungs instead of/as well as the brain? I would argue that removing someone's spleen will not rid them of their consciousness, but removing their brain surely will. Why? I admit I don't know precisely why or how consciousness arises exactly in the brain, but in general terms it seems to be due to the complex and intricate interlocking of neural cells.

<<Just a few thoughts on the subject... My perspective is that we are so much more than just our bodies, and that our consciousness is far more than just a collection of firing neurons within our brains.>>

I think that our bodies and brain are an exceptionally amazing physical structure which is really to be admired. As far as I can tell consciousness arises from a complex arrangements of communicating neural cells, although the precise manner is not yet known. There is no evidence as far as I know that it is anything more than this, what else could it be?

Hey veronique,

here's a picture for you



It's a picture of my friend my sunflower plant, a big admirer of the rays form the sun. It doesn't seem to mind much that the sun is roughly four and a half billion years old and will enter the red giant branch phase in another five billion years or so to eventually expire. In some way I think that is to be admired

Cheers,
J

jose:

<<It's a picture of my friend my sunflower plant, a big admirer of the rays form the sun. It doesn't seem to mind much that the sun is roughly four and a half billion years old and will enter the red giant branch phase in another five billion years or so to eventually expire. In some way I think that is to be admired >>

yeah, well that sunflower is my doppelganger in plant form and i'll tell ya what

it doesn't "seem" to mind.... but that's cuz its my DOPPELGANGER thus my 'ALTER" ego

so yeah... it doesn't mind

and u know what? i kind of give up knowing what will happen or all that HAS happened.. i've probably crossed the bridge of my afterlife

and maybe i'm even old as the beginning of time itself

i don't know

maybe i existed in the age of the pterodactyls

i coulda been a pterodactyl, too, u know

anyhow... whether or not what u say is right or wrong

it is right to you

my questions seem relevant (sometimes)to me

lightform has his own perspective

everyone else has theirs

its all good

i guess what i'm saying is

no matter what has been said or done

i just simply don't know

and for now

i'm alright with that

the answer to everything ought to really be a big question mark

i'm content with the question mark

mystery within mysteries
"gateway to all understanding) ( modifiaction of tao te ching)

For me, heaven occurs in the here and now. When my mind is still and quiet I begin to experience the infinite and eternal. The eternal is now and the infinite is not two.

Knowing the answers to the questions you posed will not give you an experience of heaven. In fact, pursuing these answers will probably take away from the attributes of the experience of heaven, which for me is peace, bliss, and love.

One really can't say much about this stuff, as the Tao that can be spoken is not the Tao. You can read the Power of Now and practice its suggestions for a doorway into the infinite and the eternal. And it may take a lot of practice, in fact, you might not get it in this lifetime. But regardless of what path you take, you always return to source.

bryan says:

<<But regardless of what path you take, you always return to source>>

not only that but you ARE Source
that is the only way that one CAN return to Source

its just merging with ones true self
that's all

Hi Jose
I appreciate your perspectives, and I think that at a certain level, understanding becomes a personal opinion or experience rather than a scientifically justifiable truth. For example, I believe that every atom is indeed in a formative relationship with every other, and that there are forces that effect things without a quantifiable energy transference. This feeling comes from more than just my limited knowledge of science, and extends into the realms of personal exploration.

At its core, our science exists as a collection or rules that best describe our experiences of reality, yet in truth our experience differs from one individual to another, and our laws are consequently far from static and universal. We amend them as our understanding of ourselves and our environment changes.

You write :
>>I think that our bodies and brain are an exceptionally amazing physical structure which is really to be admired. As far as I can tell consciousness arises from a complex arrangements of communicating neural cells, although the precise manner is not yet known. There is no evidence as far as I know that it is anything more than this, what else could it be?

I think that this statement is made accepting the idea that our consciousness is limited to the experience of the physical world as relayed by the 5 senses of our body, and that our thoughts and awareness exist as a bodily function. My opinion is that our consciousness extends through all of time and space, and that our physical awareness is actually a selected focal point within this.

Bryan
I can definately relate to what you say. Although at the moment I feel that while one may experience greater sensations of peace and bliss through practice, we are always fully connected to the source, and that just accepting this at any given time is as much as we ever need to do. The idea that we need to do "something" in order to be aware of it, or connect to it etc.. in my opinion is what seperates us in the first place.