Osho:

"All the religions believe that God created the world and also mankind. But if you are created by someone, you are only a puppet, you don't have your own soul."

This guy is clueless.

And he had a cult following.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2009 08:57PM by Omega.

kwan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >I believe that I am fulfilling the incredible
> possibilities of the human brain by exercising it
> and filling it with facts, logic, music, etc. And
> it's a pretty safe bet that I have done so to a
> much greater extent than almost everyone who posts
> here.<
>
> Don't bet on it.


Some people's opinions are more important to me than
others in this matter, such as the ones who are in a
position to make a more accurate assessment. Those
would be the ones who have made it a life's work to
understand more of the natural world than I have. There
really aren't that many people around like that. But
when I do encounter such a person, I tip my hat to him
or her, and I admire his or her perseverance, and wish
that I had more of it myself.

Did atheist philosopher see God when he 'died'?

"That same day, having finished his rounds, Dr. George returned to Ayer's bedside. 'I came back to talk to him. Very discreetly, I asked him, as a philosopher, what was it like to have had a near-death experience? He suddenly looked rather sheepish. Then he said, 'I saw a Divine Being. I'm afraid I'm going to have to revise all my various books and opinions.'"

[www.gonsalves.org]

Hahahaha.

That's really a wonderful quote, Omega. I also heard of another confirmed, very outspoken atheist who had a near death experience that completely changed his outlook and caused him to believe in... hmmm, what can we call It? How 'bout The Great Something? Or The Great Nothing (out of which everything comes)? All the words have been polluted with foolish meanings; that's a large part of the problem.

Can people who don't believe in God believe in miracles, cosmic radiations and prana, chi, cosmic gift-waves and higher dimensional beings? I don't believe in the storybook G-O-D anymore either, but I certainly have experienced these other things enough to know that there's something wonderful in the universe that is greater than us, or maybe we are It and we are far, far greater than we dare to dream.

Sharrhan:


[www.facebook.com]

Carl Jung said, "The whole point of Jesus's life was that we should
become exactly like him, but that we should become ourselfs in the
same way he became himself.
Jesus was not the great exception but the great example."

Try this mantra "I dont know." It's an unparalleled source of
power, a declaration of independence from the pressure to have an
opinion about every single subject.

It's fun to say. Try it:
"I dont know"
Let go of the drive to have it all figured out:
"I dont know"

Proclaim the only truth you can be totally sure of"
"I dont know."

Empty your mind and lift your heart"
"I dont know"

Use it as a battle cry, a joyous affirmation of your oneness
with the Great Mystery:
"I dont know"

I know

Another atheist NDE, from [www.danhankins.com]:

George Rodonaia held an M.D. and a Ph.D. in neuropathology. He delivered the keynote address to the United Nations on the "Emerging Global Spirituality." Before immigrating to the United States from the Soviet Union in 1989, he worked as a research psychiatrist at the University of Moscow. He was also an avowed atheist. Yet, after the NDE experience, he devoted himself exclusively to the study of spirituality, earning a second doctorate in the psychology of religion. He then became an ordained minister in the Eastern Orthodox Church. After immigrating to the United States, he served as a minister in the United Methodist Church.

His account follows:


"My mother was born in London. My father was born in Soviet Georgia. It would be a great understatement to say that my parents were not looked upon very kindly by the Communist government, because they believed strongly in human freedom and vigorously fought for it. They were courageous people, perhaps too courageous, because the KGB banished them to the gulag in the late 1940s for openly expressing their opposition to totalitarian government. So they spent many years in that horrid detention system made so famous by Alexander Solzhenitsyn in his masterful book, The Gulag Archipelago.

"Sometime around 1948 my parents were ordered by the Soviet government to work on the Tran-Siberian Railroad. Many other dissidents were also forced to assist in this massive construction project. My parents worked on the railroad for about six years before I was born, in 1956, in Shanghai, China. Unfortunately, Khrushchev came to power shortly after that and operatives from his government charged my parents with spying. They were then murdered by the KGB. I was just seven months old.

"I was then adopted by a family from Soviet Georgia. I was fortunate, because my adoptive parents showered me with love and wonderful care and took pains to educate me properly. They were not especially religious, not in an organized or outward way, but they were fantastic caring people. Unfortunately, my adopted father died of lung cancer when I was nine. Then my adopted mother died of pancreatic cancer when I was twelve.

"At twelve I was living alone in the home left to me by my adoptive parents in Soviet Georgia. A few neighbors stepped in to feed me, to give me a hand, but I had to grow up quickly. I realized that the only way I would ever survive was to become strong and bright and able, so I applied myself to my studies very hard. I did a great deal of writing, too. I even wrote an essay which was published in the University of Moscow newspaper. The president of the university liked my essay very much; he liked it so much, in fact, that he invited me to attend the university at the age of fourteen. So I moved to Moscow.

"At the University of Moscow I developed a great love for the physical sciences and medicine. My research specialty was concerned with adenosine triphosphate, or ATP, which is sort of an energizer for the brain. I was very much a typical young research scientist and a pretty skeptical one, too. I was not religious at all. I was an atheist. I had basically accepted the materialistic perspective of the hard sciences that everything can and should be reduced to a material cause. There was no room for spirituality for me at all; out of the question, totally out of the question.

"Life became complicated for me at the age of eighteen, when I was invited to pursue advanced research at Yale University in 1974. The thought of studying at Yale and living in the United States thrilled me, but since I didn't have a wife or family members in the Soviet Union to discourage me from seeking asylum in the US, the KGB wouldn't let me go. By 1976, however, I was married and had a little son, so the Soviet government reluctantly agreed to allow me to go to the United States. Many people got involved to see that this occurred, among them Millicent Canter, a friend from Longview, Texas, who for many years sought to bring me to the United States. She even got Henry Kissinger involved in my case, because he sent a letter on my behalf from the US government to support my invitation. Unfortunately, as I would soon find out, the KGB had no intention of letting me go.

"On the day of my scheduled departure for the United States, the KGB tried to kill me. I was waiting for a cab on a sidewalk in Tbilisi when I saw a car jump up on the sidewalk, avoid a few trees, and then head directly for me. It all happened in an instant. First I saw the car coming toward me, then I felt it hit me head-on. I estimate I flew about ten meters, landed facedown, and then the car ran over me again. From that time on, I must have been unconscious, because I can't remember anything else about the crash or the crash scene.

"The first thing I remember about my NDE is that I discovered myself in a realm of total darkness. I had no physical pain, I was still somehow aware of my existence as George, and all about me there was darkness, utter and complete darkness - the greatest darkness ever, darker than any dark, blacker than any black. This was what surrounded me and pressed upon me. I was horrified. I wasn't prepared for this at all. I was shocked to find that I still existed, but I didn't know where I was. The one thought that kept rolling through my mind was, "How can I be when I'm not?" That is what troubled me.

"Slowly I got a grip on myself and began to think about what had happened, what was going on. But nothing refreshing or relaxing came to me. Why am I in this darkness? What am I to do? Then I remembered Descartes' famous line: "I think, therefore I am." And that took a huge burden off me, for it was then I knew for certain I was still alive, although obviously in a very different dimension. Then I thought, If I am, why shouldn't I be positive? That is what came to me. I am George and I'm in darkness, but I know I am. I am what I am. I must not be negative.

"Then I thought, How can I define what is positive in darkness? Well, positive is light. Then, suddenly, I was in light; bright white, shiny and strong; a very bright light. I was like the flash of a camera, but not flickering – that bright. Constant brightness. At first I found the brilliance of the light painful, I couldn't look directly at it. But little by little I began to relax. I began to feel warm, comforted, and everything suddenly seemed fine.

"The next thing that happened was that I saw all these molecules flying around, atoms, protons, neutrons, just flying everywhere. On the one hand, it was totally chaotic, yet what brought me such great joy was that this chaos also had its own symmetry. This symmetry was beautiful and unified and whole, and it flooded me with tremendous joy. I saw the universal form of life and nature laid out before my eyes. It was at this point that any concern I had for my body just slipped away, because it was clear to me that I didn't need it anymore, that it was actually a limitation.

"Everything in this experience merged together, so it is difficult for me to put an exact sequence to events. Time as I had known it came to a halt; past, present, and future were somehow fused together for me in the timeless unity of life.

"At some point I underwent what has been called the life-review process, for I saw my life from beginning to end all at once. I participated in the real life dramas of my life, almost like a holographic image of my life going on before me – no sense of past, present, or future, just now and the reality of my life. It wasn't as though it started with birth and ran along to my life at the University of Moscow. It all appeared at once. There I was. This was my life. I didn't experience any sense of guilt or remorse for things I'd done. I didn't feel one way or another about my failures, faults, or achievements. All I felt was my life for what it is. And I was content with that. I accepted my life for what it is.

"During this time the light just radiated a sense of peace and joy to me. It was very positive. I was so happy to be in the light. And I understood what the light meant. I learned that all the physical rules for human life were nothing when compared to this unitive reality. I also came to see that a black hole is only another part of that infinity which is light. I came to see that reality is everywhere. That it is not simply the earthly life but the infinite life. Everything is not only connected together, everything is also one. So I felt a wholeness with the light, a sense that all is right with me and the universe.

"So there I was, flooded with all these good things and this wonderful experience, when someone begins to cut into my stomach. Can you imagine? What had happened was that I was taken to the morgue. I was pronounced dead and left there for three days. An investigation into the cause of my death was set up, so they sent someone out to do an autopsy on me. As they began to cut into my stomach, I felt as though some great power took hold of my neck and pushed me down. And it was so powerful that I opened my eyes and had this huge sense of pain. My body was cold and I began to shiver. They immediately stopped the autopsy and took me to the hospital, where I remained for the following nine months, most of which I spent under a respirator.

"Slowly I regained my health. But I would never be the same again, because all I wanted to do for the rest of my life was study wisdom. This new interest led me to attend the University of Georgia, where I took my second PhD, in the psychology of religion. Then I became a priest in the Eastern Orthodox Church. Eventually, in 1989, we came to America, and I am now working as an associate pastor at the First United Methodist Church in Nederland, Texas.

"Many people have asked me what I believe in, how my NDE changed my life. All I can say is that I now believe in the God of the universe. Unlike many other people, however, I have never called God the light, because God is beyond our comprehension. God, I believe, is even more than the light, because God is also darkness. God is everything that exists, everything – and that is beyond our ability to comprehend at all. So I don't believe in the God of the Jews, or the Christians, or the Hindus, or in any one religion's idea of what God is or is not. It is all the same God, and that God showed me that the universe in which we live is a beautiful and marvelous mystery that is connected together forever and for always.

"Anyone who has had such an experience of God, who has felt such a profound sense of connection with reality, knows that there is only one truly significant work to do in life, and that is love; to love nature, to love people, to love animals, to love creation itself, just because it is. To serve God's creation with a warm and loving hand of generosity and compassion – that is the only meaningful existence.

"Many people turn to those who have had NDEs because they sense we have the answers. But I know this is not true, at least not entirely. None of us will fully fathom the great truths of life until we finally unite with eternity at death. But occasionally we get glimpses of the answer here on earth, and that alone is enough for me. I love to ask questions and to seek answers, but I know in the end I must live the questions and the answers. But that is okay, isn't it? So long as we love, love with all our heart and passion, it doesn't matter, does it? Perhaps the best way for me to convey what I am trying to say is to share with you something the poet Rilke once wrote in a letter to a friend. I saw this letter, the original handwritten letter, in the library at Dresden University in Germany. (He quotes from memory, as follows

"Be patient with all that is unresolved in your heart. And try to love the questions themselves. Do not seek for the answers that cannot be given. For you wouldn't be able to live with them. And the point is to live everything, live the questions now, and perhaps without knowing it, you will live along some day into the answers.

"I place my faith in that. Live the questions, and the universe will open up its eyes to you."

what is there left to say
simply experience love
and u don't have to wonder whether or not God exists



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/05/2009 11:50AM by la_veronique.

la_veronique Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> what is there left to say
> simply experience love
> and u don't have to wonder whether or not God
> exists

That's true. It's one thing to know the answers, it's another to LIVE them.

And if you are living the answers then the question doesn't matter.

Near-death experience of a research scientist:

[www.youtube.com]

whoops double post



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/05/2009 07:31PM by Omega.

kwan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> hmmm, what can we call It? How 'bout The
> Great Something? Or The Great Nothing (out of
> which everything comes)? All the words have been
> polluted with foolish meanings; that's a large
> part of the problem.

I agree kwan. People of varying beliefs (and non-belief) all have their preconceived notion of what "God" means, and these notions are typically influenced by religion.

What I observe among atheists is a very strong emotional resentment against religious concepts of God; this resentment is so strong that it precludes accepting the possibility of ANY universal power, even a "secular" one.

Omega Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What I observe among atheists

Make that "some atheists."

The Tao Te Ching by Lao Tzu gives a deeply mysterious description of God, the Tao:

The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.
The name that can be named is not the eternal name.
The nameless is the beginning of heaven and Earth.
The named is the mother of the ten thousand things.
Ever desireless, one can see the mystery.
Ever desiring, one sees the manifestations.
These two spring from the same source but differ in name; this appears as darkness.
Darkness within darkness.
The gate to all mystery.

[www.terebess.hu]

This is almost quantum mechanical, as in an electron can be described as a particle or a wave but is really neither.

Some people argue that life is strife and suffering
is normal. Others swear we're born sinful and only heaven
can provide us with the peace that passes understanding.
But being alive on this rough green and brown earth is the
highest honor and privilege. It's an invitation to work wonders
and perform miracles that aren't possible in any nirvana, promised
land, or afterlife.
I am not exaggerating or indulging in poetic metaphor when I tell
you that we are aleady living in paradice. Visualize if you dare.
The sweet stuff that quenches all our longing is not far away in some
other time and place. It's right here and right now.
Poet Elizabeth Barrett Browning knew the truth:
"Earth's crammed with heaven."
Brezsny-Pronoia

That reminds me of something I just read in this guy's profile.

Shree is hip to the trip, cool post CB.
right here now PEACE AND LOVE if you want it!

communitybuilder Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How is the "spiritual realm" different from the
> physical realm? And why is it superior?
>
> I don't understand this duality, it seems rooted
> in the physical=evil heavenly=good beliefs of the
> middle ages. Of course love, compassion, joy,
> wonder, the pleasures of the mind (as opposed to
> the pleasure of the flesh, really they're one in
> the same as they all come from brain chemistry)
> are all "of this world" but people call them
> "spiritual" and I'm not sure why...

I have heard it said by a source that I truely value, that the greatest way in which you can prove to yourself that you are more than a body, is to love your enemy, for in so doing you show the source to be fully internal and without physical motive.

It is very real to me that the corresponding brain and body chemistry that are present when one loves, is a result of and not a cause of being love. I understand that one must seek a higher wisdom than what can be attained analytically in order to know this, for as Omega has been suggesting, what the mind believes it will perceive, and everything which follows is built upon this framework.

arugula Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Some people's opinions are more important to me than
> others in this matter, such as the ones who are in a
> position to make a more accurate assessment.
> Those would be the ones who have made it a life's work
> to understand more of the natural world than I have.
> There really aren't that many people around like that.

This is based on two assumptions:

1) The answer to whether or not God exists is found only in scientific study of the natural world.

2) Your education in that field is greater than almost everyone else (with only a few exceptions).

Assumption #2 may very well be true, but assumption #1 is flawed.

Therefore, any conclusion you draw from both #1 and #2 will also be flawed, even if #2 is true.

-----------

Separately, what do you make of the experiences I posted above of George Rodonaia (the M.D. and Ph.D. in neuropathology) and Julie Larham (the research scientist)?

George Rodonaia was an avowed atheist who had "the materialistic perspective of the hard sciences" before his experience. Was he in a position to make "a more accurate assessment" (as you put it) before the experience? What about afterwards?



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2009 09:34PM by Omega.

Omega,

Here's something to think about...

"...neurocardiologist have found that 60 to 65% of the cells of the heart are actually neural cells, not muscle cells as was previously believed."
[www.appliedmeditation.org]

Oh, sorry Omega, I didn't mean for anyone to take my response as to your first point, it was only the second that I addressed. I took a lot of the hard sciences, I made advanced studies in many diverse fields, I'd like to take even more, and I would, if I didn't have to worry about making a living.

Regarding people who have impeccable credentials who have also had NDEs, well certainly I respect all the brutally demanding work they did to get their educations. But that doesn't mean I give their personal brushes with the supernatural more credence than anyone else's. I might perhaps enjoy more their descriptions of what they experienced, however. It brings to mind that neuroscientist who had a massive stroke and experienced a "one-sided" brain for a time that somebody once posted here.

name of god from : A-Z


"I LOVE YOU" in:





Afrikaans


Ek is lief vir jou

Albanian


Te dua

Te dashuroj

Ti je zemra ime

American Indian


(North American Native)

Apache


Sheth she~n zho~n (nazalized vowel sounds)

Cheyenne


Ne mohotatse

Chickasaw


Chiholloli (first 'i' nasalized)

Hopi


Nu' umi unangw'ta

Mohawk


Konoronhkwa

Navajo


Ayor anosh'ni

Sioux


Techihhila

Zuni


Tom ho' ichema

Arabic


Ana behibak (female to male)

Ana Behibek (male to female)

Ana ahebik

Ib'n hebbak

Ana ba-heb-bak

Nhebuk (spoken to someone important)

Armenian


Yes kez guh seerem (Western dialect)

Yes kez si'rumem (Eastern dialect)

Bangladeschi


Ami tomake valobashi

Basque


Nere maitea

Bengali


Aami tomaake bhaalo baashi

Bolivian Quechua


Qanta munani

Bosnian


Volim te

Brazilian (Portuguese)


Eu te amo (pronounced "eiu chee amu"

Bulgarian


Obicham te


As te obeicham


As te obicham

Burmese


Chit pa te

Cambodian


Kh_nhaum soro_lahn nhee_ah

Canadian (French)


Sh'teme (spoken)


Je t'aime (I like you)


Je t'adore (I love you)

Chinese


Ngo oi ney (Cantonese)


Wo oi ney (Cantonese)


Wo ai ni (Mandarin)


Wo ie ni (Mandarin)


Wuo ai nee (Mandarin)


Wo ay ni (Mandarin)

Creol


Mi aime jou

Croation (familiar)


Volim te (used in common speech)

Czech


Miluji te

Danish


Jeg elsker dig

Dutch


Ik hou van je


Ik hou van jou

Equador Quechua


Canda munani

English


I love you


I adore you


I love thee (poetic)

Estonian


Mina armastan sind


Ma armastan sind

Ethiopian


ewedishalew (Male to Female)

ewedihalew (Female to Male)

Farsi (Iran-dialects in Afghanistan/Pakistan)


Tora dost daram

Filipino (Phillipino)


Mahal ka ta

Iniibig kita

Mahal kita



Finnish


Mina rakastan sinua

Rakaastan sinua

("Ma" tykka"a"n susta (I like you)


French


Je t'aime (I love you)

Je t'adore (I love you - stronger between lovers)

J' t'aime bien (I like you - meant for friends, family members - not for lovers)



Gaelic (Language of Ireland)


Gaeilge (Irish Gaelic):

Tá mé i ngrá leat (literally: Am I in love with-you / meaning: I'm in love with you)

Pronounced: taa may ee ngraw lat

Tá grá agam ort (literally: Is love at-me on-you / meaning: I love you)

Pronounced: taa graw aggam orret

Is grá liom thú (literally: Is love with-me you

meaning: You are love in me)

Pronounced: es graw lom who

(The Irish language is generally a very idiomatic and metaphorical one.)

Gàidhlig (Scots Gaelic):

Tha gaol agam ort (literally: Is love at-me on-you / meaning: I love you)

Pronounced: ha gewl aggam orsht


German


Ich liebe dich (classic & conservative)

Ich hab dich lieb



Swiss (German)


Ch'ha di ga"rn

Greek


S'ayapo (spoken s'agapo)

Greenlandic


Asavakit

Hawaiian


Aloha wau ia oi

Aloha wau ia oi nui loa (I love you very much)


Hebrew


Ani ohevet otcha (female to male)
Ani ohev otach (male to female)

Hindi (language of northern states of India)


Mai tumase pyar karata hun (male to female)

Mai tumase pyar karati hun (female to male)

Hungarian


Szeretlek

Icelandic


Eg elska thig (pronounce "yeg l-ska thig"

Indonesia


Saya cinta padamu

Saya cinta kamu

Saya kasih saudari

Italian


Ti amo (relationship - lover or spouse)

Ti voglio bene (between friends)

Ti voglio (strong sexual meaning of desire)

Irish (see also Gaelic)


Taim i' ngra leat

Japanese


Kimi o ai shiteru

Aishiteru

Chuu shiteyo

Ore wa omae ga suki da

Watashi wa anata ga suki desu

Suki desu (used at the beginning of a relationship - no intimacy yet)

Korean


Dangsinul saranghee yo

Saranghee

Joahaeyo

Norul sarang hae

Kurdish


Ez te hezdikhem

Lao


Khoi hak jao

Latin


Te amo

Latvian


Es tevi milu (pronounced "es tevy meelu"

Lebanese


Bahibak

Lithuanian

Luganda (language of Uganda)


Tave myliu (pronounced "ta-ve mee-lyu"

Nkwagala Nyo

Luo (language of Kenya)


Aheri

Luxembourgish


Ech hun dech ga"r

Macedonian


Te sakam (a bit stronger than "I like you"


Te ljubam (I really love you)

Malay (Indonesian)


Saya cintakan kamu


Saya cinta pada mu (best and most commonly used)

Moroccan







Kanbhik

Norwegian


Jeg elsker deg (Bokmaal)


Eg elskar deg (Nynorsk)

Pakistani


M

Scientist Carl Sagan smoked pot. "He belived the drug
enhanced his creativity and insights,"wrote Keay Davidson
in the San Francisco Examiner, quoting Sagan's pal Lester
\ Grinspoon. "If I find in the morning a message from my
self the night before informing me that there is
a world around us which we barely sense," Sagan said,
"or that we can become one with the universe,I may
disbelieve: but when Im high I know about this disbelief.
And so I have a tape in which I exort myself to take such
remarks seriously. I say listen closely, you sonofabitch of
the morning! This stuff is real!```

ack, thread too long for me to follow. gotta say though, i am liking that book by osho (God Is Dead: Now Zen Is the Only Living Truth), he writes some right on stuff. narz, kwan, arugula, la ver, i think you would all enjoy it.

For some, god = love. So to say i don't believe in god, or I don't experience god, is to say I don't believe in love, or I don't experience love.

Just another way to look at it.

49. A belief which leaves no place for doubt is not a belief; it is a superstition.
José Bergamín

11. I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.

20. Lighthouses are more helpful then churches.

34. With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
Steven Weinberg Quote


32. You’re basically killing each other to see who’s got the better imaginary friend.
Richard Jeni Quote

35. The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.
Delos B. McKown Quote


44. I think flying planes into a building was a faith-based initiative. I think religion is a neurological disorder.
Bill Maher

43. The opposite of the religious fanatic is not the fanatical atheist but the gentle cynic who cares not whether there is a god or not.
Eric Hoffer Quotes


45. There’s a phrase we live by in America: “In God We Trust”. It’s right there where Jesus would want it: on our money.

coco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ack, thread too long for me to follow. gotta say
> though, i am liking that book by osho (God Is
> Dead: Now Zen Is the Only Living Truth), he writes
> some right on stuff. narz, kwan, arugula, la ver,
> i think you would all enjoy it.


According to zen, meditation is not something you do. It is not for some specific time that you are spiritual and are expected to do spiritual things; and at other times you go about your worldly affairs. Zen says that this very life is spiritual, all places and all times are spiritual. There is no particular method as such, which is supposed to be practiced in zen. Your ordinary life is transformed into meditation, so you need not leave your home. Become a bhiku or shave your head; there is no need for any outer change. The only change which has to be brought about is within you, in you. And the process with which this transformation is brought about is zen.
It is difficult to define zen, but it is very easy to understand that zen does not divide you. Zen does not separate you from your mind, or the world from god. For zen, the world and god are one. This very mind is a Buddha mind and your very being is a divine being - is it not amazing?
Normally you think of a particular place as being special or divine - temple, monastery, pilgrim center or ashram. This morning I was reading in a newspaper about an ashram where firearms were used and people were killed. Would you call this an ashram? or a divine place? The trustees of hindu temples and gurdwaras often fight one another. Whenever it is time for electing the trustees, rage is unleashed, people exchange blows and beat one another with slippers. I really wonder how they take their slippers inside the religious premises, because normally in hindu and sikh shrines, slippers are taken off before entering the building. In gurdwaras, the situation is more grim, because baptsized sikhs wear a kirpan - a small dagger. So if anything goes wrong, they have a weapon to inflict an injury which can be potentially fatal. There have been instances in many gurdawaras where swords were drawn and people were killed. Would you call these places religious or sacred? It is your mind which accepts these labels, it is just blind faith and the conditioning of your mind which says that a particular place is sacred.
Zen says every place is sacred; unholy is in your mind. The day you become pure, the day you make your mind pure, from that day onwards, all places and all spaces become pure and spiritual. All differences are man made, all labels are fabrications of society. All places are sacred as every atom has divine energy pulsuating in it. Right from the core of your being to the core of any object, one and only one energy is present.

Bryan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For some, god = love. So to say i don't believe in
> god, or I don't experience god, is to say I don't
> believe in love, or I don't experience love.
>
> Just another way to look at it.

That's something I can accept. But why call it anything other than love?

And why do dogs do it so well, and people sometimes not so well?

ah, arugula, it is not fair to bring dogs into this discussion, as they are perfect beings and only every millionth of us can reach their quality of dogginess!

What are there so many names for love? I don't know.

For some people, love is the opposite of hate. Except that kind of love (romantic love) is not the pure love that is god, but a mental concept, a mental creation. a duality based on thought.

Then there is compassion, which is sort of love, but really is pity and mercy. Compassion is a poor substitute for pure love.

In the song "What a Wonderful World", Louis Armstrong sings: "I see friends shaking hands.....sayin'.. how do you do / They're really sayin'......i love you." To me, this feels like love.

Love is what one experiences when the mind is quiet and at peace, when thoughts cease, when suffering or emotional pain disappear, when there is no time, when there is no separation between anything. In this state, one experiences pure love and becomes that pure love.