I've been thinking some more about this stuff, specifically my example of the bricks, which is a real world example, since we live in a city with a lot of brick sidewalks, and we frequently encounter missing bricks.

Here's my connundrum. How do you respond when the only authority allowed to address your problem (in this case the city's DPW) shirks its responsibility over and over again? We've called them about missing bricks, and given them the addresses, a few times, and they always say "We'll send someone right out." A year later, the bricks are still missing and clearly nothing was ever done. This is a small example, but seriously, folks, when there is deceit and malfeasance, however small, isn't it perfectly correct to up the ante a little bit and maybe call the mayor and complain, and let the DPW know that you are disappointed in their lack of commitment to keeping the sidewalks safe? (I should add that we live in a VERY wealthy city that has plenty of money to throw at things like this.) It might look like a silly issue, but for us it's big, because my husband can't see, and he often trips on missing brocks and bricks that are sticking up where they shouldn't be.

Somehow I am not convinced that expressing a bit of ire from time to time is a negative or counterproductive response. In most cases, yes; but in cases such as this, when normal calm, measured, diplomatic requests for action are ignored, I don't have the slightest qualm about making my needs more forcefully known.

This is an almost inconsequential example. But in the larger life of a country, for instasnce, where there may be massive corruption, misappropriation of funds, and harmful deception of the people, if civil means of achieving change don't work, I think it's my civic and spiritual responsibility to get rowdy and make a fuss-- that's a lot better than being apathetic and complacent and looking the other way, in my estimation.

Sharrhan:


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Hey Kwan

I'm happy to know that your out there ! IMO it is people like you who are helping bring harmony to the greater society, however... I have mixed feelings and thoughts on various aspects which you have mentioned. I have read from a source which I consider the most conscious that I have ever come accross, that talks about the undefinable nature of love in action.

It mentions that true forgiveness is embodied by its resulting resolution, not by some ideological paradigm of conduct. It talks about how actions that are motivated by love ( improving a public sidewalk being such ) can often be disruptive in their nature, because love challenges any forms of stagnancy or structures that would contain it. But ultimately it will achieve a greater harmony.

At the same time it also cautions that force, in the terms of intentionally using harmfull measures, will only ever be destructive. I feel that you have a slightly mixed bag with your example, although I can completely understand it. We humans are complex entities with many layers of interrelating understandings and beliefs.

I think that where you intend to create a safer sidewalk ( for the sake of improving the welbeing of the pedestrians ) it is righteous. Where you feel that the systems should be changed ( because they do not support an aspect of welbeing ) it is righteous. Where you intend to do this.. also righteous.

I think that the stumbling blocks exist where these intentions become mixed with other less pure thoughts and feelings along the way, such as :

1) having considerations of inadequacies ( the councils responces etc ) which allow you to feel upset with various parts of the process. And..

2) considering the physical aspects of the situation ( the fact that people could be harmed on the sidewalk ) to be negative, and therefor upsetting.

I am by no means saying that I've sorted this stuff out myself, and I don't believe that it is "wrong" to relate in this way, but it does makes alot of sense to me that these elements of our characters and realities, are indeed responcible for the aspects of disharmony which we experience physically.

For me I like to present acceptance where we I fall down, knowing that I do not understand all things. Allowing that I will feel flustered and even angry where I have still to learn, but pursuing the higher grace of love where ever I can. So I commend you on your actions Kwan, and I think that it could be easier to take solace in the supreme omniscience of your intentions, rather than being bogged down in the debatable moral aspects of selected actions and results.

So basically kwan is saying that she has the right to be angry


and Lightform is saying that being angry can be harmful

I say that acceptance is key

meaning that it would be more harmful to deny anger
but also accept that one is saddened by the inadequacies in bureacracy and even incensed by it

then when those feelings are honored and accepted one can move forward

I do think that kwan deserves better treatment and response esp.concerning the sidewalk issue

and it is great that she is standing up for that issue

i also think that it is good to be angry and vocalize it

i think then that the plateau has a better chance to be evened out

and a higher plane to be reached

acceptance and honesty of how one is feeling first is always key

Hmm..
I'm sorry if I have conveyed myself self righteously, that was not my intention. I believe that we all hold pieces of the puzzle. I guess I am just very passionate about striping away our personally generated bias toward reality, and this tends to be challenging to any belief where applied. I do not mean to say that I am right, because I know it applies to me as well.

These are just my thoughts / perspectives on the topics we have been discussing.

Oh gosh, I love both of you, because you're both so totally earnest and thoughtful. ;-p I haven't figured out all the ramifications; I just go with what I know is right for me at this time in my life, and sometimes I have to 'vent' in certain situations. But I try to do it GRACE-fully, and somehow stay in the current of love, even if I sound like I'm temporarily bellowing at someone on the phone. (Sometimes the loving thing to do is to give constructive criticism, especially to public servants.)

My rules for expressing ire:
-- can I meditate a half hour later?
-- do I feel happy an hour later?
-- can I go to sleep at peace with the world?
... then it's okay. If not, I know that I've blown it and gone off the deep end. Luckily I'm getting somewhat better at it these days... one of the rare blessings of getting older, lol!

Today Jonathan got an upsetting phone call, and he ended up really yelling at someone and losing his temper with him. Shortly thereafter I felt all hyped up, and had to go out and take a walk in order to throw off the negative vibe the whole interaction had created. Yes, anger can be really nasty stuff!-- handle with care. Or as Alan Watts said, "When you wobble, wobble well. When you get angry, do it skillfully." (Or something very close to that.)

Sharrhan:


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Yeah well.. we all have our own way, and how awesome is the diversity of life because of this. My own understanding is that anger is an expression of my own disharmony with reality, and as such cannot be resolved from outside. I have found that when I change myself, my circumstances magically change themselves.

This can be far from easy, and I still get angry when put on the spot. But I do feel that I am growing more peacefull every day, and there is less and less that causes me to feel upset. Like I said in the post above Kwan, I think that we are both right because we both have precisely our own lessons to learn. Isn't it profound !!!

I think we're both in the same 'place', just experiencing and explaining it slightly differently. In fact I'm sure of it, because there's really only ONE experiencer, when you get right down to it. Yes, it's pretty profound!

Sharrhan:


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I went to this dude's site ... forget his name

but he posted a quote.. and it says " There is only love. All else is an illusion."

but then he didn't put the name of the person who said this quote which is not cool... so i was wondering who said this?

huh?

anyhow, i think its true and we are all saying the same thing

pretty much that quote"

there is only love and all else is an illusion

Unknown

there... at least i put " unknown"

cuz i don't know

Ahh, but.. if there is illusion, and it is seperate, what is it ?

the illusion is separation

A good day for me: Feeling at one with everything.In tune.In sync.
A bad day: feeling somehow separate,detached,indifferent.

Vinny

HI eaglefly

I think that is really insightful.. what u said
good way to put it

i think that is true
i've felt both ways

i like the first way

Hi la veronique,

Yes,and it always seems to be determined by my thoughts.
Nothing changes in outer reality between those two kinds of days except the thoughts and outlook.

Vinny

Geez eaglefly

that is pretty profound
i agree
that is why inner work is kind of a miracle
nothing changes on the outside
but when something changes on the inside
the outside seems to step in sync to the rhythm of the inner song

kinda cool how that works

of course the opposite can take place too

one must have a sense of humor

guffaw long and mighty hard in order to survive