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Honey?
Posted by: Curator ()
Date: May 18, 2010 04:38PM

I recognize that a majority of people on here are vegan, and Id like to hear their opinions of honey, both moral and health related, I DONT want to start any arguments or anything, just want to hear some opinions, also want opinions from those who arent vegan... I personally love raw honey... and consider it, out of all animal products in existence, the only one thats pretty friendly to the creature thats being used to bring it to us... but hey, I could be wrong... so thats why I want to hear your opinions and experiences. Thanks for your time.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

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Re: Honey?
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: May 18, 2010 05:20PM

Yep, unless we're talking about a totally ethical small scale bee keeper you'd be wrong about it being kind to the bee. This was discussed recently on the main forum (and has been in the past more than a few times), I'd give this topic a search, there are quite a few fact and link filled posts already smiling smiley.

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Re: Honey?
Posted by: Curator ()
Date: May 18, 2010 07:29PM

hmmm, weird, I mean, ive known half a dozen people that run apiaries, and I didnt see anything cruel to the bees, I'll search for some other stuff on the forum...and see what others have said in the past.

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Re: Honey?
Posted by: Curator ()
Date: May 18, 2010 08:22PM

hmmm, found only one in search having to do with honey other than my own(Bees disappearing?), all of the apiaries ive been in contact with seem to fall within the category of "ethical" by the standards that seem to bee put forth by those commenting within that thread, odd thing is every one I know of that does take their bees to different orchards for pollination dont do it to make money, they do it to keep honey production up, at their home they have fields and fields and fields planted with the flowers they prefer for honey production, then when those flowers stop producing nectar, they take their hives to the orchards so they can keep producing honey... im not sure what one would consider large scale, but I know one guy that does this with thousands of hives, thats the largest scale operation I know of... the ones I know tend to offer the pollination services for free so they can keep honey production up...

Im appalled to hear of the way some large scale commercial operations seem to be run, its strange to me that anyone would even buy from them, as buying honey from more ethical operations doesnt cost me any more than buying that mass produced stuff in the super market... in fact costs considerably less if you buy in larger amounts (5 gallon buckets tend to go for around $60-$100 depending on variety of honey...thats 60 pounds of honey!!!) and from what I was told by them, is they only take the extra, and leave more than enough honey behind to carry the hive through the winter and into the spring...where the bees then feast off the flowers that the owners planted for them right around their hives...

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Re: Honey?
Posted by: juicerkatz ()
Date: May 18, 2010 08:30PM

Well, my take on honey...

I used to enjoy it, until it hit me that I was eating, well....um...bee vomit...(in my mind, anyway)

There, I said it - sorry, I didn't meant to gross anyone out! grinning smiley

I don't have any moral or ethical issues with it really, just that fact that I am raw & I consider honey to be an animal produced food (well, insect...)

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Re: Honey?
Posted by: Curator ()
Date: May 18, 2010 09:43PM

yeah, I didnt eat honey for years and years when i was younger cause of the whole bee vomit thing, but I considered some of the seriously more disgusting things that humans do on a daily basis, and decided it wasnt so bad...especially considering all the health benefits of raw honey... raw is anti animal products? I didnt know that, in fact its the first ive heard of it... ive got a couple DVD's that never mention it, and there was even some raw food proponent on a show called the Dr.s awhile ago suggesting people even eat raw meat if they feel they absolutely need meat in their diet...My mom called me up freaking out, cause she knows im into raw food, and thought I was eating raw meat,lol...

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Re: Honey?
Posted by: Tamukha ()
Date: May 18, 2010 10:12PM

Curator,

I consider honey a separate category vis a vis raw foods vegetarianism. As it is an animal food, it does not qualify for vegan discussion.

The typical raw foodist is a raw food vegan(no honey and some also eschew probiotics, etc.). A more recent offshoot is paleo-rawism, or cave man eating, which I just call "The Parasite Express." They advocate low fruit, high veg, no grain, and plenty of raw animal products including meat and dairy. Presumably no honey, because cavemen were probably no match for bears in the foraging department.

I am surprised "The Doctors" would feature someone who is of the second type of raw foodism because they aren't fond of the "outre;" when Phil McClusky was on to demo his raw vegan diet, one of the docs murmured that his regimen needed some bacon. So, clutch a big ol' grain of salt when assessing the stuff on that show, I say.

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Re: Honey?
Posted by: loeve ()
Date: May 18, 2010 10:26PM

The Vegan Society has a new article on the subject of honey bees, which sounds basically like their old one updated.

[www.vegansociety.com]

Beekeeping "101" calls for replacing (killing) the queen periodically to insure a healthy hive and the list of offenses against these animals goes on.

Ethical veganism does not permit the eating of animal products. Bees are of the Kingdom, Animalia. The founders of vaganism, Donald Watson and friends, specifically excluded honey from the diet on the basis that it's contrary to the well being of bees, seems to me.

I slip up now and then but not with honey. These days I'll buy cane sugar before honey though only once in a great while.

-ah, I hope that's not too much information



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2010 10:34PM by loeve.

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Re: Honey?
Posted by: Jgunn ()
Date: May 19, 2010 04:50AM

here is my take on honey (based on the average commercial beekeeper stance)

so im sitting around my house taking care of my loved ones
all of a sudden my roof is ripped off
and my house is filled with smoke
i make a mad dash for the exit hollering to all my family
i wake up on my lawn several hours after smoke inhalintion
my house has been robbed of all my worldly goods
im confused and angry looking around

this is what we do to bees to get honey well .. the commecial beekeepers anyways

this doesnt seem nice, or right or vegan or beegan at all

its just harsh and wrong

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

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Re: Honey?
Posted by: Curator ()
Date: May 19, 2010 05:30PM

ah, thanks for all the information people, I did state on entering here I was completely new to raw food as a lifestyle as i had never heard of it till recently, even though ive been eating mostly raw for most of my life, I had no idea it was vegan as every source ive found till now has seemed fine with occasional animal product consumption... so thats good to know, although I doubt i could ever go vegan...

As far as the doctors go, they actually put p a disclaimer on their show, they said they do not advocate eating raw meats, which kinda pissed off the guy that was talking about it... Also, none of the sources I get honey from practice killing the queen, as they say they believe it brings down honey production by upsetting the bees... I dont know anything about that stuff, so I'll just have to take their word for it,lol... as far as using smoke on bees goes, its quite different from what we experience, smoke has a sedative affect on bees, much as if somebody pumped nitrous into your house instead of smoke, then your analogy would be rather accurate, as the smoke doesnt harm the bees... I only buy honey from people who dont take all of the honey when they harvest, so its like waking up with your big screen tv missing, it sucks, but youl survive...

I guess what im trying to say is, its allot less harsh than what bees are used to dealing with in nature, and thats always been my particular moral compass, for me personally, i dont have a problem with anyone feeling differently, as we are all entitled to our own feelings and opinions and beliefs, but if I can look at a way an animal product is produced and its far far far better than said animal product would be harvested by hungry creatures in the wild, then I personally dont feel there is anything wrong with it, as its better than their lot in nature would be, thats also why I dont eat any farm raised and slaughtered animals unless I have 100% proof that their deaths are as humane as possible, except I do occasionally slip up and eat the random burgerking cheeseburger...I know I know, even I feel bad about that one...lol...

all that said, I am greatly enjoying learning more about you all, your feelings and beliefs, and I hope to learn more in the near future. ^_^ <3<3<3

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Re: Honey?
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: May 19, 2010 08:05PM

Well, I don't know how it's possible to murder "humainely". I don't think I'd enjoy having it done to me. And I personally would take a harsh freedom over an easy enslavement. I think the balance for me is in adhering to the golden rule as much as possible. I try not to do it if I wouldn't want it done to me.
I will occasionally buy wool, silk or leather items from a second hand store or yard sale but that has more to do with frugal living which is very important to me as well. I wouldn't like to give my money to a company manufacturing new goods out of dead beings and I avoid using the byproducts of animal enslavement as much as I possibly can. It's not perfect but it's what feels right to me.

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Re: Honey?
Posted by: Curator ()
Date: May 19, 2010 08:33PM

Well, I respect your views and beliefs coco, even if I dont share all of them, and I can see where your coming from, I just feel differently, and hope we can build some mutual respect for each others beliefs.<3

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Re: Honey?
Posted by: juicerkatz ()
Date: May 19, 2010 08:38PM

Curator Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well, I respect your views and beliefs coco, even
> if I dont share all of them, and I can see where
> your coming from, I just feel differently, and
> hope we can build some mutual respect for each
> others beliefs.<3


You may slowly come around to "our way of thinking" if you hang out on these forums long enough! grinning smiley

I know I have changed my way of thinking on several different points since going all raw & living closer to the earth.

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Re: Honey?
Posted by: Curator ()
Date: May 19, 2010 09:05PM

Im not so sure of that, see ive been around farms all my life, ive seen animals slaughtered, and ive seen animals hunted, and ive seen animals kill other animals, if I had to choose between the 3 id rather go to the slaughter house... at least the ones IVE seen, I know there are some people out there that are really horrible to their animals... but in the end, im made of meat, if a mountain lion kills and eats me while im out hiking, then I thats the end of it for me, I dont want to die, but i would hold no animosity for the creature that ends me,as I dont believe that killing for food is murder, killing for sport or just for the skin IS in my opinion, And I hope that my feelings on this wont make any of you hate me, as i know your beliefs are probably as closely held as my own, and you all seem like really interesting individuals whom id really like the opportunity to learn more about.

As far as eating meat goes, when a completely "cruelty" free product that is actually cost effective to purchase pops up, then I will be there first in line... but living on $200 a month just for food and transportation in a small town where everything costs more to get, I cant live without eating meat and animal products, even bell peppers are $5 a pound right now,iceberg lettuce, the cheapest veggie here, is $2 a head... hence why im trying to find more things I can forage from the area around me...im now officially out of berries from last season... (im blessed with having a large freezer)...

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Re: Honey?
Posted by: juicerkatz ()
Date: May 19, 2010 09:42PM

I was raised very similar to you, Curator. I come from a long line of hunters, but I broke that tradition some years ago. My brother still thinks I am totally nuts.

I don't "hate" you for your ideas, and I would like to think that the other members of the forum are above feelings of animosity towards you as well;

It is your decision if you still plan to continue eating "roadkill" grinning smiley lol

I personally feel that it is cheaper to eat a vegan/raw diet than it is to eat a meat/animal foods based diet. One major factor that I would cite is that plant based foods are more filling/more satisfying/more bulky, hence you don't require as much food to get that "full" feeling.


"Live foods" are naturally more fulfilling, as referenced in Victoria Boutenko's books, among others.


As Wheatgrass Yogi mentioned in another thread some weeks ago, most people tend to overeat, even on a raw foods diet. Here again, I come from a long line of "over-eaters", second helpings, etc., but I have been able to move past that & enjoy food for what it really is.

Just some of my ramblings...

Cheers, JK smiling smiley

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Re: Honey?
Posted by: Curator ()
Date: May 19, 2010 10:47PM

well, as far as the cost goes, I know for a fact it isnt cheaper, as im the one currently having to balance that cost, at least with whats currently available to me, and I live on less than half the food budget per month than anyone I currently know, chicken costs me on average less than $1 a pound, I have about 50 pounds left in my freezer right now that I got at 67 cents a pound a little over a month ago, I also have fish which I am able to occasionally catch, and seaweed I gather at the ocean and soak in fresh water to reduce its salti-ness,I frequently use it to season soups... the sea snails and clams and mussels I harvest help out allot as well,although I don't enjoy their flavor much, its food...

I have a considerable amount of zucchini left at the moment from the winter season in which I was able to get it for the lowest price ive ever seen, $1 a pound! cheapest vegetable matter I've ever seen for sale locally here except cabbage, which is usually around the same price, although recently I got a considerable amount for .59 cents a pound, but it doesnt take well to freezing...does ok in soup after its been frozen though, as it is I can barely make ends meet, to get all of the nutritional value needed by a human for their body do well, it is far more expensive to live 100% raw in a climate and area like where I live, than it is to not... If a person is buying new york steaks, and stuff like that, yeah the raw diet would be allot cheaper, but believe me, if there was a cheaper way to eat and live where I am, I would be the one to have found it by now,and would be living it,lol...

See, although I differ slightly in opinion on the moral implications of meat, I actually prefer a vegetarian diet, but just cant survive on it with the amount of money I have and the natural resources im familiar with in my area... I find fruits and veggies and nuts and grains far more satisfying, and enjoy the taste more than I do meat of any variety, but its just not a cost effective lifestyle for some one with such a limited income, eat vegetarian, or have a roof over my head?... Im always willing to hear of any other options, but without having a big piece of property to farm on, I doubt there is any cheaper way I could live at the moment.

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Re: Honey?
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: May 20, 2010 01:01AM

I have no feelings of animosity towards you, there are plenty of people in my life who eat meat, that's their choice. I support your right to choose whatever it is that you want for yourself, I do however disagree with some of your reasoning
"if a mountain lion kills and eats me while im out hiking, then I thats the end of it for me, I dont want to die, but i would hold no animosity for the creature that ends me,as I dont believe that killing for food is murder"
Meat is the natural diet of a carnivorous beast, it's ridiculous to resent them for eating what nature designed them to eat. We however are not carnivores. There is enough evidence that we not only survive but thrive on a vegatarian diet and plenty of evidence that meat is very unhealthy for us. Whatever benefits we might gain from eating flesh foods are available in a highly superior form from plant matter. Killing animals to eat them when we don't have to is murder to my mind. The taking of a life, however justified, is the taking of a life. Many people here will go further than that and say that enslavement for flesh, wool, eggs, etc is just as wicked. I will not debate this with someone who has a different view, I'm not here to convince people to believe what I believe. These are personal views that I apply to my lifestyle and I don't feel qualified to sit in judgement of others for what they do.
I will tell you though that this is a support site for raw vegans and the discussion of animal products is forbidden here. The moderator may decide to delete or edit your posts if they contain talk of that sort. If you wish to remain a community member please bear those guidelines in mind as you are welcome to stay and we are happy to have you so long as you abide by them. If your wish is to persue a high raw diet including meat products there are lots of sites out there that support that.
Best luck with your pursuits whatever you decide. It sounds like you have some real challenges, the wild foraging is a great idea for you. Can you also do some communtiy gardening or sprouting and window plants at home? I can't imagine living somewhere that meat costs more than vegetables, I would have to move. I'm in farm land here and really appreciate the bounty. Hardly anything organic, sadly, but it is all fresh fresh fresh and there's lots of wild stuff to eat.
Blessings to you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/20/2010 01:03AM by coco.

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Re: Honey?
Posted by: Curator ()
Date: May 20, 2010 01:26AM

No sunny windows at home where im living now, and there was a community garden, but it got shut down because people kept vandalizing it, When i was down in santa cruz visiting a friend, it was wonderful, there was so much fresh veggies and fruit, It was like heaven,lol... but meat was still cheaper, even there not a single veggetable was less than a $1 a pound, oranges where $.50 a pound though...yummy ones too!!!

As far as meat being unhealthy for people, I HAVE to have at least some animal products, as my body doesn't produce enough LDL Cholesterol by itself, as evidenced when I almost died as a teenager when trying to go vegan for health reasons,and the docs tested me, LDL commonly thought of as "bad" cholesterol plays an important part in our bodies ability to digest food of any type, the human body is normally able to actually produce more than enough to get this job done (its primary use is in the production of stomach acid) my body does not, I would actually die without at least some meat in my diet, milk can work as well but makes me sick as im lactose intolerant, hard cheeses which dont contain lactose as the bacteria that turns it into cheese consumes the lactose, would work as well, but they are,even when on sale, over 4 times more expensive than the average meat... I was hoping to be able to discuss this without bring out the "rare medical disorder" card... but hey, there it is, I would die without at least some animal products.

oh, and in closing, we are omnivores, our bodies are built to live off of both meat and veggies/fruits,any biologist in the world will attest to that, as does highschool biology, however in modern days we are able to find more than enough vegan sources to live off of in a healthy way, providing one has the money to do so,as living healthy on a vegan diet is much more expensive, for those of us who cant afford to, or cant physically survive without, its not a choice we get to make, its a choice made for us.

I didnt start this to be about animal products in general, I just wanted to know whether raw honey could be considered part of the raw diet, and what peoples opinions on it happened to be, as every other source I've previously seen made no mention of the raw diet being vegan, some recipes even included honey, and it would be strange if my threat gets deleted, as the other thread about it wasnt, but I can see the difference in where this thread has turned and that one, so id get it... considering in the wild bears destroy most of a hive for a few mouthfuls of honey, I dont consider the practices of the operations I buy honey from to be to bad, I know personally they love their bees and take better care of them than most people do their house pets... so I dont consider anything they do as cruel to the bees, they consider it a partnership.

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Re: Honey?
Posted by: Trive ()
Date: May 20, 2010 01:57AM

Curator wrote: "I didnt start this to be about animal products in general, I just wanted to know whether raw honey could be considered part of the raw diet, and what peoples opinions on it happened to be."


I have found that there are MANY different opinions about what a raw diet is and what it is not. Some people will say it's fine for honey to be part of a raw diet and others will say it definitely is not. Some people think a person should be 100% raw to consider themselves to follow a raw food diet; others think inclusion of some cooked food is fine. I was surprised that some people who consider themselves raw foodists eat raw meat, and/or raw fish and/or raw dairy. There is no definition or agreement about what a raw diet is.

HOWEVER, this site is a vegan forum and people who use this site know that from the start. Therefore, most folks here either don't use honey or don't write about using it out of respect to vegans and the guidelines of this site.


My favorite raw vegan

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Re: Honey?
Posted by: Curator ()
Date: May 20, 2010 02:08AM

yeah, I actually didnt realize this whole site was vegan till earlier today,lol, but its the only even semi active raw food forum I could find...I expected to find a stronger following online when I first heard of it...

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Re: Honey?
Posted by: Trive ()
Date: May 20, 2010 03:35AM

Well, as long as what you write keeps within the guidelines (policy) of this site, it's all cool. Whatever you choose to do on your own (use of animal products, percentage of cooked food, etc.) is your personal decision.

There are other active raw food sites, but of course, you are welcome here. I like the simple format of this site. (It's easy to tell what I've read and what's new.) There are lots of great people here - informative, helpful, creative, funny. I hope you find it a cozy place to hang out.


My favorite raw vegan

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Re: Honey?
Posted by: Curator ()
Date: May 20, 2010 04:13AM

cool, thanks, ive actually not been able to find any other raw food sites even half as active as this one... and im cool with it being vegan, I dont have any problem with vegans, just didnt realize this was a vegan only site, after reading stuff more thoroughly, I realize thats my fault,lol... as i didnt read stuff to carefully, obviously...lol

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Re: Honey?
Posted by: loeve ()
Date: May 20, 2010 10:44AM

..here's a raw food website that might interest you, Curator, which has rawist members and topics ranging from pro paleo to 100% raw vegan and everywhere in between.

[www.giveittomeraw.com]

The idea of including raw animal products, milk or oysters for instance, has been around forever and giveittomeraw has many walking this path who post regularly. I check in there often and learn a lot.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/20/2010 10:52AM by loeve.

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Re: Honey?
Posted by: juicerkatz ()
Date: May 20, 2010 11:31AM

Curator,

Have you ever researched the idea of leukocytosis ?


[www.rawfoodinfo.com]

I would tend to disagree with this...

"our bodies are built to live off of both meat and veggies/fruits,any biologist in the world will attest to that"...


one thing I would cite is that our digestive system is not designed as a meat eaters digestive system is;


but I do not want to start an argument or as coco mentioned, I am not here to really change anyones' mind - I am dealing with enough of those issues with my own family, lol...

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Re: Honey?
Posted by: loeve ()
Date: May 20, 2010 11:49AM

..nice link --

"They found that eating raw food, or food heated at low temperatures, did not cause any reaction in the blood. In addition, if a food had been heated beyond a certain temperature (unique to each food), or if the food was processed (refined, chemicals added, etc.), this always caused a rise in the number of white blood cells in the blood."

-so "...food heated at low temperatures, did not cause any reaction in the blood." That's good to know and is a case, for me, for not simply dismissing steamed veggies out of hand, but of learning at what cooking temperatures various foods cause leukocytosis.

thanks

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Re: Honey?
Posted by: loeve ()
Date: May 20, 2010 12:57PM

oh, here's the full 1930 paper with critical temperatures of some common foods --

[www.seleneriverpress.com]

Dr. Kouchakoff writes that one can eat foods heated even beyond the critical temperature without causing leukocytosis as long as they are eaten with raw foods of equal or higher critical temperature. So, boiled potatoes could be eaten with raw carrots without causing digestive leukocytosis following Kouchakoff's laws.

He also gives a critical temperature for heated water of 191 F, that's for 30 minutes at that temperature as all other foods were also tested, I believe. I wouldn't think boiled water could cause leukocytosis. Maybe I'm reading it wrong...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/20/2010 01:10PM by loeve.

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Re: Honey?
Posted by: loeve ()
Date: May 20, 2010 02:30PM

Curator,

Your going to find lots of conflicting information in the raw movement. If you stay with the omnivore approach Dr. Kouchakoff actually does not find standard HTST pasteurized milk to cause leukocytosis. His table lists the critical temperature of milk at 191 F. Milk is normally pasteurized at 161 F. Just stay away from ultra-pasteurized which is done at 275 F.

"In the HTST process, milk is forced between metal plates or through pipes heated on the outside by hot water, and is heated to 71.7 °C (161 °F) for 15–20 seconds." (Wikipedea)

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Re: Honey?
Posted by: Tamukha ()
Date: May 20, 2010 02:34PM

As someone who still clings to tea drinking, the suggestion that boiled water induces white blood count pandemonium is dismaying. How did the British colonize the known world in a state of chronic leukocytosis?! And what is "air blood," Dr. Kouchakoff? My Spidey Senses detect Soviet medical methodology . . .

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Re: Honey?
Posted by: Curator ()
Date: May 20, 2010 05:59PM

First, thanks for the link loeve, secondly, thanks for the link katz, but im always skeptical of any ancient studies done by people who didnt have even close to the technology needed to be able to even really tell what they where doing half the time, not to mention the fact that studies didnt have to withstand anywhere near the scrutiny they do now, and that dont include any modern studies to back them up, although its definitely an interesting read, and something I'll keep in mind, until a modern study by a reputable organization pops up, I shall remain to be skeptical on that one, cause 300 experiments on 10 individuals, is not even 1/1000th of a percent of the needed data for such a study to be accurate, especially since I can bet you that all of them came from the same community too, to test such a hypothesis youd need far more tests, done on exponentially more test subjects over a long period of time, and done on people from all over the world, or at LEAST all over the country...

Also, you are entirely right loeve, our digestive system isnt built like a meat eaters, its built like an omnivores, which is different than the system of either a meat or plant eater... technically though it IS built to eat primarily plant based food, as we lean more towards the foraging side of the omnivore spectrum than not, but then there are those like me who lean more towards the carnivore, who can actually die without a source of cholesterol... but thats more of a rare genetic abnormality than anything else, in the end its what you choose to do, and I have no problem with a vegans choice, I myself dont have a choice, I have to have cholesterol, and my budget is I bet smaller than anyone elses here... as far as the morality goes, life is life to me, if im eating a vegetable, or im eating a chicken, something had to die so I could survive, as something also had to die so IT could survive, I know most dont share that opinion, and I understand, its just what I believe.

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Re: Honey?
Posted by: Tamukha ()
Date: May 20, 2010 08:36PM

Curator,

Just curious(I'm a bit of a medicine wonk): Is there a name for your disorder? Please politely decline if that's an intrusive question : )

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