I'm a raw food vegan. There's a few things that come to mind with this honey discussion.

First, what would a raw food person want with honey anyway? Putting honey on any raw vegan food would ruin it. Want something really sweet? Why not eat some figs or dates or something?

2nd, on the expense of food, honey can be expensive and has almost zero food value. Check this out. It's the nutrient chart for an ounce of honey:

[www.nutritiondata.com]

The serving size for those charts is 1 cup (top of the page). Change that to the more realistic generous daily dose of 1 ounce, and check those vitamin, mineral, and protein charts. 0% Daily Value of the Recommended Daily Allowance for protein, 0% DV for nearly all vitamins and minerals. So why buy honey when it's already difficult to afford real food? How much real food could have been purchased instead of those jars of honey?

Third, it's difficult to explain to someone else "why" something is right or wrong. It didn't bother me either when I used to eat meat and cheese and honey and all that stuff. But now I see things from an entirely different perspective because animals and their products are no longer "food" to me. They're beings, just like me. And just like you. They're not here for my benefit. Knowing that I don't "need" such things has brought me to the understanding that I don't have the right to manipulate the life of another animal for the purpose of gratifying my stomach. It's not my place to decide they'd be better off living the life I make for them.

Like pollen? Eat a flower!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/21/2010 02:43AM by suncloud.

Im a pretty open guy, so no, its not intrusive, I brought it up so its only fair you ask, Familial hypobetalipoproteinemia (homozygous) my Dr. said it was the worst case he had ever even heard of, which at least in my opinion is most likely because I had never had my cholesterol checked, in fact, It was only checked then because of how sick I was, and they couldnt find anything at first, and he happens to believe allot of sicknesses can be caused or made worse by your cholesterol being to low, so he tested me, I was skeptical, but when I started eating meats again, and taking cod liver oil (Pills so don't reduce the yucky-ness by much) I started getting much better, eventually they found that i was also having problems with black mold, I thought that was my only issue and stopped my intake of high cholesterol stuff, and started getting sick again, rather fast... I had been sick for years previously to this, parents decided the cod liver oil was much cheaper than the hospital, and I decided eating some meat (especially fish, with some fish having a higher level of cholesterol even than beef!) was better than being sick and possibly dying...so even to this day I take my supplements daily, ($10 a month) and try to eat enough meats to keep my LDL cholesterol levels above 100, I get tested every 3 months now, my LDL was 120 last time ^_^...Unfortunately its not my only health problem, buuut the only one I'll discuss here,lol... I will say though, that the symptoms of my other medical issues became less prominent after raising my LDL cholesterol levels...

suncloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm a raw food vegan. There's a few things that
> come to mind with this honey discussion.
>
> First, what would a raw food person want with
> honey anyway? Putting honey on any raw vegan food
> would ruin it. Want something really sweet? Why
> not eat some figs or dates or something?
>
> 2nd, on the expense of food, honey can be
> expensive and has almost zero food value. Check
> this out. It's the nutrient chart for an ounce of
> honey:
>
> [www.nutritiondata.com]
>
>
> Check those vitamin, mineral, and protein charts.
> 0% Daily Value of the Recommended Daily Allowance
> for protein, 0% DV for nearly all vitamins and
> minerals. So why buy honey when it's already
> difficult to afford real food? How much real food
> could have been purchased instead of those jars of
> honey?
>
> Third, it's difficult to explain to someone else
> "why" something is right or wrong. It didn't
> bother me either when I used to eat meat and
> cheese and honey and all that stuff. But now I
> see things from an entirely different perspective
> because animals and they're products are no longer
> "food" to me. They're beings, just like me. And
> just like you. They're not here for my benefit.
> Knowing that I don't "need" such things has
> brought me to the understanding that I don't have
> the right to manipulate the life of another animal
> for the purpose of gratifying my stomach. It's
> not my place to decide they'd be better off living
> the life I make for them.
>
> Like pollen? Eat a flower!


Dates are about 4 times the price of honey in my town, the honey I just bought from my friend was $10 for 5 pounds, its even cheaper if you buy in larger amounts, it is $8 for a half pound container of dates at the only store here that sells them (thats $16 a pound) and nobody here sells figs unless you count fig newtons, I had a couple brown turkey fig trees when I was living with my parents in our old house, but as they where close to the house, they died when it burned down... Honey has allot of value in upping your resistance to local allergens, when I started eating raw local honey, my pollen allergies went away in less than a month, and stay away as long as I eat raw local honey every now and then, but seem to come back when I go without it for a long time... oh, and I do eat flowers, edible ones, nasturtiums, although cliche, are my favorite, I like that slightly peppery bite...its awesome... theres no place for me to plant any in my new place unfortunately... Im thinking of doing some guerrilla gardening...lol...

I have to say too, Ive never been any place in my life in which figs or dates where cheaper than honey...Im sure they probably are in areas that are mostly desert though...

Sorry about all of your health problems Curator.

It's somewhat uncommon to find people who really have to eat meat and/or meat products to retain their health. It's possible there may be other solutions; and if so, I hope you're able to find them.

Best wishes.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/21/2010 03:10AM by suncloud.

Again, I support your right to choose what is right for you but disagree with your reasoning.

Curator Wrote:
> as far as the morality goes, life is life to me,
> if im eating a vegetable, or im eating a chicken,
> something had to die so I could survive, as
> something also had to die so IT could survive, I
> know most dont share that opinion, and I
> understand, its just what I believe.

A sentient being, one that is aware of it's own self, has thoughts and feelings, lives and breathes, loves and mates, gives birth to and nutures it's children, expresses affection, feels fear and pain... this is not a carrot.
Fruit begs us to eat it, it smells delicious, it looks beautiful, it tastes good and nourishes our bodies. We eat it and hopefully @#$%& out it's seeds in a handy pile of fertilizer or at least toss the core into some soil within eating and walking distance of it's source (not too close but in the same hospitable area, smart eh?). It's a wonderful symbiotic relationship designed by nature to benefit both creature and tree that is only marred by the "advancements" made by human "intelligence" (shipping, plastic garbage bags, flush toilets).

I will tell you right now that I'm talking about an ideal. I am not vegan, I probably will never be able to conscientiously and truthfully apply that label to myself, the strictures are very hard for me to completely follow. But I Know what I am doing when I do it and I acknowledge what it is that I'm doing. No matter how happy the chicken, I still stole her eggs. No matter how well treated the bee, I still stole her honey. No matter how humainely that animal was raised and killed, it is still slavery and murder. IMHO. I can only do a thing if I'm honest with myself about what it is that I'm doing. Gotta own it, KWIM?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/21/2010 06:22AM by coco.

What honey and fruit have in common is sugar, a source of quick energy. To be getting more calories from carbs and less from protein and lipids could be a good thing physiologically speaking, ethics aside.

Many find their allergies clearing up on raw foods without attributing it to any one food, though I get less inflammation and congestion having dropped ice cream from my diet.

The low cholesterol could be a cause or a correlation. My LDL was tested at 47 (HDL 36) back in 1989 as a lacto/ovo vegetarian and I felt fine and my doctor noted the off-the-chart low values for total and LDL as "good". My CHOL/HDL ratio of 2.5 was also computer flagged L (low) but my doctor let that one slide without comment. Now we know cholesterol can be too low, or at least there are some negative correlations with very low values. The experts are still grappling with cholesterol ratios trying to figure out what they mean. The Giessen, Germany raw food study showed raw fooders with very low cholesterol and triglyceride levels, which was commented on as a good thing except their HDL and vitamin B12 was also low causing them to wonder.

Very nice post, suncloud!

This would make a great sig! > Like pollen? Eat a flower!

suncloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm a raw food vegan. There's a few things that
> come to mind with this honey discussion.
>
> First, what would a raw food person want with
> honey anyway? Putting honey on any raw vegan food
> would ruin it. Want something really sweet? Why
> not eat some figs or dates or something?
>
> 2nd, on the expense of food, honey can be
> expensive and has almost zero food value. Check
> this out. It's the nutrient chart for an ounce of
> honey:
>
> [www.nutritiondata.com]
>
>
> The serving size for those charts is 1 cup (top of
> the page). Change that to the more realistic
> generous daily dose of 1 ounce, and check those
> vitamin, mineral, and protein charts. 0% Daily
> Value of the Recommended Daily Allowance for
> protein, 0% DV for nearly all vitamins and
> minerals. So why buy honey when it's already
> difficult to afford real food? How much real food
> could have been purchased instead of those jars of
> honey?
>
> Third, it's difficult to explain to someone else
> "why" something is right or wrong. It didn't
> bother me either when I used to eat meat and
> cheese and honey and all that stuff. But now I
> see things from an entirely different perspective
> because animals and their products are no longer
> "food" to me. They're beings, just like me. And
> just like you. They're not here for my benefit.
> Knowing that I don't "need" such things has
> brought me to the understanding that I don't have
> the right to manipulate the life of another animal
> for the purpose of gratifying my stomach. It's
> not my place to decide they'd be better off living
> the life I make for them.
>
> Like pollen? Eat a flower!

loeve Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What honey and fruit have in common is sugar, a
> source of quick energy. To be getting more
> calories from carbs and less from protein and
> lipids could be a good thing physiologically
> speaking, ethics aside.
>
> Many find their allergies clearing up on raw foods
> without attributing it to any one food, though I
> get less inflammation and congestion having
> dropped ice cream from my diet.
>
> The low cholesterol could be a cause or a
> correlation. My LDL was tested at 47 (HDL 36)
> back in 1989 as a lacto/ovo vegetarian and I felt
> fine and my doctor noted the off-the-chart low
> values for total and LDL as "good". My CHOL/HDL
> ratio of 2.5 was also computer flagged L (low) but
> my doctor let that one slide without comment. Now
> we know cholesterol can be too low, or at least
> there are some negative correlations with very low
> values. The experts are still grappling with
> cholesterol ratios trying to figure out what they
> mean. The Giessen, Germany raw food study showed
> raw fooders with very low cholesterol and
> triglyceride levels, which was commented on as a
> good thing except their HDL and vitamin B12 was
> also low causing them to wonder.

Ha, the numbers didn't quite add up in the above post --

For comparison, my 1989 cholesterol results-

LDL = 47 (normal 80-185)
HDL = 36 (normal 30-70)
VLDL = 8 (normal 8-72)
CHOL = 91 (normal 135-224)

Hmmm, the HDL and VLDL were normal.. wierd.

..just thinking, as part of the Harvard Nurses Study they correlated cholesterol levels and risk of stroke and found that very high levels work against you *until* one becomes elderly at which point it is correlated with a longer life. Maybe the ability to digest/produce cholesterol can become compromised, which would be bad, right?, because certain cholesterol levels are a great good...

Curator,

That truly sucks, as it's a very serious pathology and you must have gotten a mutagenic donation from each parent--what are the odds? It's good you've got a doctor that's on top of it and that you are mindful of keeping your fat soluble vitamins up to compensate. I wish you great health.

actually its really weird Tamukha, my dr said its even more strange because my dad has really high levels of LDL cholesterol, while my mother has low, but still not very low, although it is important to point out that both of them eat ALLOT of high cholesterol foods... fast food makes up most of their diet:/... and they both refused genetic testing, as its rather expensive, guess it doesnt really matter though where I got it from, if I have it I have it... me and my parents are so different, I sometimes wonder if I was adopted...

loeve, Ive read allot of interesting information out there about the risks of to low of cholesterol, considering LDL is needed for the structural integrity of almost every cell in the body, development of the brain and eyes, the forming of synapses, and tons of other stuff, it seems they could be on to something about to low of levels being dangerous, with the very small amount of study thats been put into it, I only believe it cause I'm a perfect case study of it, I do believe though that what is "to low" or "to high" probably differs from individual to individual... however they have shown that really low levels of LDL cholesterol is common near the end stages of many terminal illness's... so its a lot to think about, and I hope they start putting in as much work in studying low levels of LDL as they have the effects of high levels...

Coco...it is not a carrot, as we are able to perceive it, Personally I do not believe carrots are sentient, although a carrot does experience roughly about half of the things you mentioned... bees experience about roughly half as well, from what we can perceive of them... I was not trying to say a carrot had all the same faculties as us, but it has roughly the same as a bee... I DO believe its possible they could be as sentient as us, but in a different way,I don't think its likely...although a number of studies have been done, showing that plants perceive danger, and react to it. Interestingly enough, we seem to share the exact same opinions on our food sources coco, the only difference I can see, is that I consider myself a part of nature, and I don't think there is anything wrong with what I have to do to survive... That's the truth I own.

Curator,

I too would like to see more research on low cholesterol. I'd also like to see them stop referring to LDL as the "bad" one since it has many vital functions like you say. The optimal ranges I've seen for LDL are either <100 or <70 depending on the individual's total risk factors. My LDL was at 102 last check (1996) with an HDL of 45 so no worries though I should probably have it tested again.

Curator,

Have you gone anywhere for a second opinion? Never hurts. In your post you say your doctor "happens to believe allot of sicknesses can be caused or made worse by your cholesterol being to low." Could be he's right, or could be a huge red flag.

Below is a website that gives some interesting information on homozygous familial hypobetalipoproteinemia (FHBL). The website says, "FHBL is ... a rare disorder of apolipoprotein B metabolism characterized by levels of plasma cholesterol and LDL cholesterol that are less than one-half normal in heterozygotes and are very low (<50 mg/dL) in homozygotes".

How low was your LDL when tested?

It appears that a diagnosis of FHBL can be quite complicated, and several other disorders can present with similar symptoms. According to the website, "A lipidologist at a major center specializing in the disorders of lipid metabolism is the most appropriate consultant to involve from the start."

Have you visited a lipidologist?

Also, hypobetalipoproteinemia is not necessarily FHBL. "The secondary causes of hypobetalipoproteinemia include occult malignancy, as well as conditions such as malnutrition, liver disease, and chronic alcoholism. These conditions must be excluded before the diagnosis of FHBL can be made."

The website recommends a low-fat diet and a reduction of long-chain fatty acids. My understanding is that cod liver oil is high in long-chain fatty acids, so supplementing with cod liver oil appears to be incompatible with those recommendations. In the abstract of a study on FHBL found on another website, the recommendation is: a diet with low to moderate amounts of fat and energy, limited use of alcohol, as well as avoiding obesity in these individuals (italics, mine).

I couldn't find any recommendation for an increase in dietary cholesterol as a treatment for FHBL. (Does anyone out there have a reference?)

It might be helpful to confirm your doctor's dietary recommendations with a registered dietitian.

You say your parents eat lots of fast foods. Did they raise you this way? If a person's diet has been a total wreck from the beginning, the person may begin to have health problems accompanied by uncomfortable and painful symptoms. Temporary improvements in diet may result in the symptoms becoming temporarily worse, while accumulated toxins emerge from the cells to be disposed of. If the person then reverts back to a less healthful diet, there may be temporary improvement in symptoms, while the actual disease state is getting worse.

I may be way off-base here, but if there's a possibility of regaining your health from trying something new, it's something to consider. You came here for a reason.

Again, please consider a second, and even third and fourth opinion - and a visit with a registered dietitian (RD). You might even consider visiting two RDs - one with general expertise, and one with expertise in vegetarian diets.

Here are links to the sites mentioned above:

[emedicine.medscape.com]

[emedicine.medscape.com]

[emedicine.medscape.com]

[pt.wkhealth.com]



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/2010 10:02PM by suncloud.

Heya suncloud, My LDL when first tests was around 20 I believe, but that was many years ago, it still dips down that low if I dont take the cod liver oil, and i get sick again, It wasnt my DR here in town who originally diagnosed me with it, he sent me to another person, which im not sure if he was a lipidologist, but ALLOT of blood tests where done, also when searching on the internet, I couldnt find any suggestions for an increase in LDL intake as a treatment for FHBL as well, except recently I found a dr who links low levels of LDL to increased health problems in general, amongst other things... the one thing is, that as soon as I started eating things high in LDL cholesterol again, I got better, FAST, and when I stop, I get sick, FAST... so whether his diagnoses is correct, or its something else, the "treatment" is working quite well.

My parents did TRY to raise me eating alot of fast food, but I was one of those weird kids that didnt like it, I always felt sick after eating fast food, I just loved fish and vegetables and fruit as a kid... still ate fast food from time to time cause they would be like "well, this is what we have for dinner, eat it or go hungry."

One thing to think about, when reading allot of information online about LDL cholesterol, and people with low levels of it, is that for a long time now the medical community has thought of it as "bad" they are finding out now thats its actually essential for our health, yet theres still very little study done on it... the thing I know for sure is, I get sick without my supplements, I feel pretty good most of the time with them, If I find a better option, I will go for it... for the time being, I dont have the capability for any further testing than Ive already had, as the cost is rather prohibitive...but I cant even count how many tests they did on me back then, so I'll go with whats working for now, rather than put myself in more debt than im already in.

As far as why I came here, its because Ive been, by personal preference, eating a primarily raw diet for most of my life, and didnt realize there was actually a community around it, on average I eat at least a 50% raw diet, depending on what I have available, some parts of the year my diet goes as high as 90% raw, some parts of the year as low as around 25%, but thats only been during particularly bad years...

I can guarantee that as soon as I have a spare $50,000 laying around, or all medical becomes free, then I will be seeing allot more specialists...

Thankyou for your concern, and all the time you put in looking up all that stuff for me, I really do appreciate it, you did find some new stuff I havnt found yet, as I havnt done any heavy research on it for at least a year...Ive kinda burnt out on caring.

Sounds like you're doing your best Curator. And you're still keeping an open mind. That's good. We can't do any better than the best we can do!

20 sounds pretty low and definitely meets the criteria for hypobetalipoproteinemia according to medscape. I'm personally almost totally ignorant about cholesterol levels in general.

Seems that hypobetalipoproteinemia is very rare, and the science on it is lacking - plus medical help is expensive! All this must make things very difficult for you.

If possible, I'd still consider a visit to a registered dietitian, preferably a vegetarian RD. Since you're not a vegetarian though, I'd go to both. That way you'll have a fuller perspective of options for further improvement.

Even though you're responding well to your current treatment, it could be hiding symptoms rather than actually correcting an underlying condition. You've hinted that you have other health problems. They might be linked. Maybe you could improve all your symptoms through some slight dietary tweak. Just a possibility.

Meanwhile, as you say, the science on the benefits of LDL is still very sparse. That often means it's largely unsubstantiated by peer-reviewed research.

Perhaps the moral of the story for now is to try to have as much fresh fruits and vegetables in your diet as possible, and also sufficient sources of HDL. Trouble is, the more animal fats you have in your diet, the less fats from whole plant sources and the less fruits and vegetables - unless you're eating too much food. We do have considerable evidence that fruits, vegetables, and moderate quantities of fats from whole plant sources are beneficial.

If you don't yet follow a vigorous exercise program, it would surely be helpful to start one.

Whatever, thanks for not minding my tossing in this two cents worth!

Re: Honey? Posted by: suncloud ()
Date: May 20, 2010 10:37PM


I'm a raw food vegan. There's a few things that come to mind with this honey discussion.

First, what would a raw food person want with honey anyway? Putting honey on any raw vegan food would ruin it. Want something really sweet? Why not eat some figs or dates or something?

Um...lemonade? I love honey-sweetened lemonade! And honey, like salt, is a flavor-enhancer. So there are many things which you could put a touch of honey or other sweetner and make it taste yummy!

suncloud, I actually eat a primarily vegetarian diet, the animal products I consume are to help fill the gaps where I otherwise would end up starving, I actually had a quite vigorous workout routine be4 I got injured recently, vigorous to the point in which you probably wouldnt even believe,lol... but im a bit immobile at the moment, but to illustrate my point, im currently 182 pounds, after having gained roughly 10 while ive been down, 5'8" and was only 8% body fat be4 I was injured, and its probably higher now, I had a good amount of muscle...still do, but have lost a little while idle.

Dr's seem to be blaming allot of my current problems on black mold...I find it hard to care about any of the problems anymore,lol.

"...the one thing is, that as soon as I started eating things high in LDL cholesterol again, I got better, FAST, and when I stop, I get sick, FAST... so whether his diagnoses is correct, or its something else, the "treatment" is working quite well."

Mothers milk is high in cholesterol. It's accepted that this dietary cholesterol is a good thing at least at this stage of life. Beyond that "we are all different", I agree.

yeah, its integral to the development of the brain and eyes, its also integral to their upkeep, especially with memory, hence why people on cholesterol meds suffer memory issues as one of the main side effects of long term use, ldl is also needed to strengthen cellular walls, its one of its main uses...

I see, low-density lipoproteins (LDL) shuttle cholesterol and various lipids around the body which are vital to the construction and maintenance of cell membranes and other functions, and cholesterol "is an essential structural component of mammalian cell membranes, where it is required to establish proper membrane permeability and fluidity. In addition, cholesterol is an important component for the manufacture of bile acids, steroid hormones, and fat-soluble vitamins including Vitamin A, Vitamin D, Vitamin E, and Vitamin K. Cholesterol is the principal sterol synthesized by animals..." (Wikipedea)

"The normal low-density lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol range is 50 to 70 mg/dl for native hunter-gatherers, healthy human neonates, free-living primates, and other wild mammals (all of whom do not develop atherosclerosis)."

"How low is too low? Cholesterol is an essential component
of the cell membrane and an obligate precursor for bile acid,
steroid hormone, and vitamin D synthesis. Consequently, it
is likely that a physiologically ideal range of blood cholesterol
exists above and below which adverse health consequences
might be expected. Although individuals with
serious chronic illnesses, such as cancer, often develop
depressed LDL levels as a result of malnutrition, epidemiologic
studies show that people with naturally low LDL
levels are associated with improved longevity (27). The
cumulative experience with statin therapy shows impressive
cardiovascular benefits that are directly proportional to LDL
lowering with no increase in adverse events such as malignancy
or non-cardiovascular mortality (5–12,18–26). The
incidence of the two principal adverse effects commonly
attributed to statins—liver and muscle toxicity—rise modestly
as a function of dose of statin utilized but not in
relationship to the on-treatment LDL level (5–12).
People with heterozygous hypobetalipoproteinemia have
total cholesterol levels as low as 80 mg/dl and LDL
cholesterol levels as low as 30 mg/dl (30). This condition is
associated with longevity (31), presumably due to the
absence of atherosclerosis, but the lack of other adverse
effects that might have accompanied a low LDL level
suggests that such low levels of LDL are safe."

[www.thepaleodiet.com]

..at least people who are "hypo" LDL tend to live longer on average because they don't get atherosclerosis.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/27/2010 11:22AM by loeve.

yeah, Ive read about that, I was like "wellll maybe that means I'll live long enough for them to figure out a decent way to deal with all of my symptoms." LOL...would be nice...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

We should both live long then having very low cholesterol. I've got my issues too historically with weak digestion and nerves though both are getting better.

One thing I've just learned about LDL cholesterol is that they don't measure it directly, unless by getting very expensive tests done that is. The standard technique is to measure Total CHOL, HDL and triglycerides and then arrive at an estimnated LDL by an algebraic formula. So maybe by increasing HDL and/or triglycerides (or however the formula works) one can increase their LDL score.

BTW, when my Total CHOL was 91 it was most like modern day hunter gatherers and peccarys, checking the table at the above paleo link. Black rhinos have lower CHOL still so am in good company.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/28/2010 05:49PM by loeve.

I do feel in some ways that honey is slavery. I also feel though, too, that in some ways its all just part of a cycle too. The bee doesn't own the honey, it simply collects it from plants. I look at it sort of like they are gatherers, and we simply are eating plant sugar. So to me it is vegan in respect to food, but not vegan in respect to practice. Good yummy nectar yes, but we still haven't figured out a way to not destroy part of the hive. Keep in mind, if we never ate honey, but still let them thrive, we would have exponentially more bees on earth right now. every drop or so of honey we eat, is the potential for a new baby bee. the more bees can grow and live the more often the hive can split, or at least insures the survival of the bees in this hard phase for them with colony collapse syndrome being a real problem currently. tough debate, but if i was an endangered species, i would hope that people would quit stealing my food!

The Raw Lion 440 pounds to 225 pounds!

Ever see those nice purple clover flowers growing on the lawn? Gently pull out a few of the spiky petals, at the base is a tube shape that full of nectar, just suck it out or bite off the white part (purple clover are sweeter than white). There you go, flower nectar you collected yourself , you don't have to kill the flower to do it either, just take a few petals from each blossom. My kids can spend hours at this, it's adorable. I should dress them up as bees and let this loose in the yard, ha!

ok, that would be amazingly adorable coco, but unfortunately, I have no inclination to dress up as a bee and go around collecting nectar...although I have been known to occasionally cut a swath througha bed of nasturtiums...but I ate the flowers too...

coco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ever see those nice purple clover flowers growing
> on the lawn? Gently pull out a few of the spiky
> petals, at the base is a tube shape that full of
> nectar, just suck it out or bite off the white
> part (purple clover are sweeter than white). There
> you go, flower nectar you collected yourself ,
> you don't have to kill the flower to do it either,
> just take a few petals from each blossom. My kids
> can spend hours at this, it's adorable. I should
> dress them up as bees and let this loose in the
> yard, ha!

Yeah, you could upload a vid of them doing that to the "Imma Bee" song, lol