coco,

We all know what it means to be overwhelmed. I'm sure that your kids are obedient most of the time in a way that reflects their particular development level; you seem like a waaaay diligent mom to me And I totally know what you mean about how aggravating lax parenting can be--children crave structure and boundaries, and lose faith in those that can't provide them, in my experience.

Curator,

We agree that the snake thing couldn't have been handled another way, barring intervention by the Angel Gabriel, so that's settled, yeah? A child that continuously runs into the street, is old enough to handled rules, and does not accept non-corporal discipline either has serious problems or has a caregiver with serious problems(not you, mind). As someone who has redirected children away from danger without ever resorting to physical discipline, I cannot think of any situation that would have warranted violence except smacking a child's hand away from danger. Not one. Physical discipline would have been superfluous to verbal discipline in each case. In fact, all a spanking would have done was shown how angry/panicked/irrational I was under the cirumstances. I also would have been left wondering if the kid is refraining from dashing into the street for fear of physical reprisal[emotional response], or for self preservation[intellectual, that is, mature response]. I want that kid to not dash into the street because he understands rules and fears for his own safety, not because he's scared of a spanking. If that's the outcome, I am failing to train that young mind into self discipline, which is the main trait distinguishing the adult psyche from the child psyche.

coco, although we don't agree, I appreciate your thoughtful and reasonable responses. From all I have seen you write, I can tell that you are a good person and wonderful parent. Thank you for your comment: "...regarding dealing with special needs and/or mulitple children without the option of swat, spank, etc. It's a good perspective, food for thought." That gives me hope that there can be reasonable dialog on this topic.

Here's my reciprocity: Your comments about "having your kids full time and/or on your own" also makes me think. Parenting is such a hard job with so little support. A single full-time parent has tremendous pressure, especially with more than one child. I only had step children part time with a husband (their father) present. That is different. It makes me wish there were more help for parents.

Here's a radical idea: Eliminate the last year of public schooling and spend that money assisting parents with training/respite/emotional support/etc., tailored to what the individual parents need. Maybe that would help weak parents stop the cycle of abuse and would give strong parents, like you, a shoulder to lean on when pressure gets really heavy. Although I have never had biological children of my own, I have paid a lot of taxes over the years toward schooling of other people's children and I don't resent it one bit. I know it has helped society. I just see a need to help parents more with parenting, even though resources are limited.

As to the mother on the plane... it takes a village. I have offered to help parents who seemed to be losing it in public by asking something like, "Would you like me to sit with your child for a while so you can have a break?", but have never been taken up on the offer. Maybe they think I'm a weirdo or a butinski. I don't mind. It's offered with good intentions.


My favorite raw vegan

Trive,

This is lamentable, that society doesn't close ranks around parents to make sure they succeed. After my dad died, when I was three and my brother was under two, my grandparents, who lived in the city, were constantly around, constantly. And neighbors helped, too. My mother was very competent, but it's like everyone understood that the children were the most important thing. I wouldn't be here if my family hadn't pitched in, even while I still had an active father: when I was a few months old, one day in the summer, I was very tetchy and would not stop crying. For hours I was crying, my father was out of the office at work, and my mom called her mother and said she was gonna kill me if I didn't stop crying. My grandmother told my mom to put me down on the floor in a closed room, and to get herself outside, into the middle of the field behind the house so that she could not hear my cries. Then grandma hiked up her skirts and trotted out of her house and got on the next bus out to our suburb. When she arrived, and let herself in with the spare key, I was still crying and my mother was still out back. After grandma had calmed me down, she went out to the field to fetch my now composed mother. My mom told me this many years ago, to express how grateful she was to have had such dedicated family and how lucky she was that they were a half hour's bus ride away. It made me think, what about the frazzled young mother whose own mother retired to Arizona, and whose sisters moved south. And whose in-laws might likewise be absent(grandma no. 2 would have done the same thing if Mom had called her instead). What of that mother or father that doesn't have older, wiser, kind neighbors like we had, who would help in a pinch if family were unavailable. What does that mother or father do when they're at their wits' end? My blood ran cold to realize how much tragedy could be avoided if more familial and quasi familial communities remained closely bound

Seriously you guys, your kids never run out into traffic? My daughter does it EVERY SINGLE DAY! Thank goodness we live in the country but what am I going to do with her when we move? I don't spank her for it but man, is it ever trying! If we hand hold as a solution I get a struggle and maybe some kicks or a bite or throwing herself on the road, in the middle of the road, or actually getting loose and running out into the road! I'm not kidding, she wants her freedom this one and it's not always safe or appropriate for her to have it. She's 3, she's not a rational human being yet, she's not so easy to reason with (in fact, it's completely impossible at this age with her). I just want her to NOT RUN INTO THE ROAD (or throw hard objects at her brother's face or bang them on the windows or open the door which she can now do by herself and go outside in the two seconds when I'm not looking or stick her fingers into dangerous things like the fan or poke people in the eyes etc etc etc) by any freaking means neccessary and it doesn't matter if it's because she's scared of getting in trouble at this point, just so long as she DOES IT! Sometimes I have my hands full of stuff and it scares the bejeezus out of my not being able to grab her until I've run after her half way into the street. I can not even tell you how stressful this is for me. I'd have kept her stroller and just strapped her in whenever we left the house but she can GET OUT of it on her own so it's useless now. I would need to be an octopus to keep up with this child.

She is so rough this girl, she pulls her brothers hair, whacks him, throws toys, she's VIOLENT! I'm not running around slapping her, her brother isn't rough with her (believe me, I'm always there to see), she's been socialized with other children and adults, she is just getting her yayas out with flaily throwy kicky freak outs. She's the smallest person in the house, I am utterly sympathetic to her sense of powerlessness, believe me, I read enough parenting and psychology books, I attend to these things. But I wonder if swats or threats of such might do better with her temperment. And please, I don't have time to hold a child down until she calms down, I have 2 kids. Maybe when the little man goes back to school but honestly, the one time I did have the time and tried it resulted in over 20 minutes of her screaming and struggling before she fell into an exhausted sleep from which she woke up even more pissed off. I've never felt worse, talk about guilt. That was a parenting fail I'm not likely to repeat.

We do all kinds of steam blowing off activities, we have a big yard full of fun stuff and wild bunnies and birds, we live close to the beach, their grandma is here a couple days every week, I let them get dirty (and how), they have a lot of appropriate freedom. It's not that my daughter is repressed or helpless or whatever. She just has her temperment, she's very different than her brother was and she needs different parenting than he did. Should I slap her if she slaps me, should I bite her back, should I show her what it feels like to have hair pulled? I don't know, those are all experiences that she's going to get from another kid if she doesn't cool it so maybe I should. At least I can talk to her about it. Maybe.

My point is, not all kids are the same and not all of them respond the same way to every sort of treatment. As parents we have to figure out what works best, there is no One Size Fits All. Those parents who do the one-two-three-then a beating don't have it right IMO but the parents who think they can talk any child into and out of everything don't get it either.

You guys, believe me, even when we don't agree I appreciate all of your thoughts and ideas. Maybe most of all when we don't agree because it makes me either change my mind about something or re-examine and reaffirm my beliefs. It's a good thing and I thank you all for everything you write.

I wish I were a better parent, all the time, of course. I never stop striving towards that goal. But things are rarely perfect and sometimes an imperfect solution works better than all the seemingly "better" ones you've tried if you know what I mean. I don't claim to have the answers to this one, I only know that as my life progresses I find myself doing and saying and being ways that I never envisioned for myself and it's made me better able to see how people might behave in certain ways given certain circumstances. I can sympathize with that woman on the plane, even though her baby was very young for that sort of treatment I can totally see how and why it happened. I too wish there was more support for parents, especially single ones. It's so easy to criticize but so freaking hard to do even as good as that person who we're judging is doing. Man, I dread ever getting on a plane with this girl. Little and I travelled everywhere together and he was so great, this one can't even deal with a car ride half the time. I'm getting hit in the back of the head with a book at least once, that's for sure.

Tamukha, what a touching story! How wonderful for your mother to have someone supportive in times of need... someone older and wiser who has been through it all. Yes, so many families are widely dispersed now. Knowledge and experience lost. Sad.

coco, I'll bet there isn't a parent in the world who doesn't wish they were a better parent. We all do our best, even if it isn't THE best. (I have sent a PM to you.)


My favorite raw vegan

my answer: i don't have a clue

Coco - you sound like a brilliant parent to me. Your daughter sounds like a real handful. I can honestly say, hand on heart, that I had no such difficulties with my children and roads. They may have not looked right and left once or twice and I would have squatted down and reminded them but honestly it must have been so insignificant if it did happen that I can't even remember it.

I'm going to suggest something that you can throw straight out if you like. It sounds to me that there is a real problem with your daughter despite all your very evident wonderful care and love.

In this country now there is an evergrowing swing for new born babies to have cranial osteopathy. This isn't as mad as it sounds at first. Just imagine how much pressure a babies head is put through in the birth canal. A friend of mine had her baby and the first nine months of her life were hell. This child, no matter what she did, would not stop crying. She often would put the baby in the room and walk into the fields just to get a break from the noise and distress. Some one suggested cranial and with a sceptical heart she tried it - was ready to try anything - and do you know, the crying stopped almost immediately. I can quite honestly say that it changed their lives.

I do have a lot to do with Cranial osteopathy as my partners uncle was the president of the British School of Osteopathy and introduced Cranial - from America. I have seen so many cases where cranial has completely sorted out the problem, from the typical bad back, to emotional problems, to all kinds of behavioural problems in children and adults.

Like I say - totally disregard this if you like but maybe it's something to consider. You do need to find someone who knows what they are doing though and not some quack. Ordinary osteopathy with just 10minutes cranial is not the same at all but is sadly what is sometimes offered as a cranial treatment.

I would never want to fall out with you Coco, you are one person here who i often see eye to eye with and I do respect your opinions and what you say.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/24/2010 07:50AM by flipperjan.

Meh, areguements are not grounds for falling out I don't think. This is how we learn and grow and I appreciate it. Believe me I would not come back if we were all in complete agreement and super lovey dovey. Blech!

My son cried for 2.5 years straight, he was a dreadful sleeper, he wanted to be nursed all the time and had to be carried non-stop. I did take him to a very good chiropractor but he was fine, he'd had a wonderfully gentle birth at home and he was in perfect alignment. My daughter cried very little, was a great sleeper right from the start and a charming and happy baby, she also went to the chiropractor and was in perfect alignment. She's a wonderful, adorable, lovely little girl who is sweet and loving and very nice BUT she is also 3. Irrational, impulsive, willful, spontaneous, and more than a handful. Really, pretty normal for that age. My friends with kids of that age have similar experiences, 2-4 year olds are just pure insanity! Sometimes I am at my wits end.
I don't know if chiropractic treatment is the same as cranial osteopathy, I'm not familiar with that term. I'll ask our doc next time we go in. Thanks for the tip.

coco,

My inner pedagogue was reading critically what you wrote of your little girl, and I agree with flipperjan that there may be something at work here over which you have no influence as a parent. Willful is one thing, and it could be just a "stage" she's going through, but if she's a typical three; is fully physically autonomous, is starting to understand abstractions, and has reasoning ability, then basic ground rules oughtn't to be beyond her. My mom was a hellion, and her mom was on her like a hawk, but it still took my mom's sticking a hairpin into a naked electrical receptacle at 8 years of age to teach her the beginnings of caution. Needless to say, no mother would want her child to have to learn that lesson the hardest way; my mom didn't, for sure.

A word about the holding down: the first of the two kids I had to hold down to quieten I held down for 32 minutes--man, was I sore! Interestingly, the other children would come wandering by to see what was going on, and when I calmly explained that the girl was upset and I was helping her, they drifted off to keep themselves busy without ado. If your son is a mild temperament, he won't fly off the rails while you are focusing on your daughter, right? There is always one child that needs more attention than the others, as I'm sure your mother has told you repeatedly. There's no reason that child shouldn't get more attention and that your son should feel shortchanged if she does. He may even desire to help.

But if you are doing as much as you seem to be doing--feeding them well, exercising them well, providing a lot of affection and balanced routine and novelty--you may need to try something like what flipperjan recommends. It's not you, and it's not your parenting, in other words--you may just need more help.

Hi Coco

Cranial Osteopathy is completely different from the chiropractor.

[www.cranial.org.uk]

I've clicked on the page for babies and children but the whole site is interesting.

Actually however 'easy' (gosh isn't that a weird word to use in connection with childbirth!!!) the birth was the baby's head will still have been put under untold pressure.

Have a flick through the link - it may not be relevant but something might jump out. In my experience most doctors dismiss it so your doctor may not be particularly helpful in this department.

Thanks for the link, by dr I meant chiropractor and he's awesome so I'll ask what he knows of this...

Oh, she does get it sometimes, she knows what's what but she doesn't have the motivation to do what someone else wants above what she wants. She likes to do things her own way this child. I understand why so many parents have a TV and use it. Really, it is very tempting.
All I can say is thank goodness there are only 2 of them.

Trive, I was thinking earlier today about your comment to harried parents, offering them a hand while they chill. It was amusing to me because I think many of these parents would take offense, even though I think it's a thoughtful, non-judgmental, helpful gesture on your part. I think that one of the main reasons that chronic slappers/hitters/beaters of children do this is because they feel unduly bad about themselves. So your offer would probably trigger a feeling of inadequacy on their part. The mother in question said that she slapped her baby because he kicked her! So she basically took offense at her own baby and thought the baby intentionally kicked her! Even if that were true, it would only be because the child had seen the mother model expressing anger by physical means.

I would not accept assistance from a stranger because, sorry to say, it's negligent on my part to trust my kids to someone I don't know for even one second. It's like someone saying to you "Oh, your hands are full, here, let me hold your purse for you while you carry those groceries to your car." Only times 1000. No one's going to just hand over their purse or wallet, why would they entrust their child? It's not about guilt, it's about fear of a stranger.
I've offered a person help carrying things, holding a door, lifting one side of a stroller onto the bus, things like that, but I'd never offer to help them by taking or watching their child. That's well intentioned I'm sure but a red flag moment for any mom.

My daughter kicks, bites, pulls hair and throws things and it SURE isn't because she's modelling behavior she sees at home! We aren't doing that, we are not a violent family, and there's no TV so that's not it either. Kids have very few resources for expressing themselves so they will often react in a vocal or physical way (screaming, striking out). It's not because they learned it from anyone. I sure didn't teach her to pick her nose and eat it either .

I thought it said that the mom spanked her baby because he was screaming, fighting and kicking her as she was trying to get him seated on the plane. I hope that she was at her wit's end and not that she gives a spanking every time her baby acts out a little bit.

I understand that a person could feel that way, but it's not like I tell them to give me their child and get out of sight. I will think about a better way to phrase it should the occasion occur again, though, because even if a parent does not trust my intentions, I feel I need to say something when I see an adult spanking a child in public. By remaining silent I feel like I am complicit in what I believe is abuse and at least speaking up stops the spanking.


My favorite raw vegan

Coco: I am not an child expert in the least and I have read enough of your posts to know that you are a conscious parent. So when you mentioned your daughter's behavior, it does sound like she has something going on which she brought to this lifetime (don't know if you believe in reincarnation!). There is a syndrome for everything these days and as soon as you described her, I thought of Oppositional Defiant Behavior (or something to that effect) where the child is very difficult and wants to control everything. Yes, I believe in ADD (I have it, I am sure!), bipolar, etc. It's just that I disagree with the medical establishment in how to handle the issue. I think there is a difference between a headstrong child and one who flies into rages, is violent, etc. Even if they have times when they are sweet, the bad times should be pretty rare, I would think, if the diet is pure and there isn't anything really traumatic going on. Maybe like they have holistic MDs, they have the same dealing with behavioral issues?

I don't know, I'll look into it. I really do think it's a phase she's going through. I remember my brother had a biting phase that was really hard on all of us (he's the youngest too) and all the books said "normal" for that age. We shall see. We're facing a possible move to the city within the next few months that will do nothing to settle her temperment I'm sure but her bro will also be back in school so she'll get more one on one mommy time.

Trive, if I was harried and someone offered me help by simply saying "Hey, can I give you a hand with anything? No, really, it's no problem. I can carry something for you or push this cart, I'm not in a hurry today." I might be more inclined to say yes. It's lovely that you even offer, I can't tell you how many times I've been elbowed out of the way because the kids and I weren't moving fast enough for some important person who really needed to get by. A genuine offer of help is a wonderful change of pace.

My chiropractor does cranial sacral adjustments, is that the same/similar to cranial osteopathy? He's never heard of that one...

No Coco - it's not the same at all. Cranial sacral is often provided by massage therapists and does not work, no matter how subtely, on the skeleton at all.

Cranial Osteopathy has a very rigorous training - several years of intense full time study whereas Cranial/sacral can be picked up at evening school.

If you are interested it may be worth finding out if there is anyone near you that does it - or maybe when you move to the city.

Please don't be put of exploring further just because your chiropractor doesn't know of it.

Reading your last 2 posts I really feel for you with your daughter's behaviour. It must be terribly dificult to know how to handle her. I don't think repeated biting, kicking, pulling hair is normal behaviour at all. I remember the odd kid at my childrens playschool (age 3 - 5) would occasionally bite and if the parent was there they had various ways of dealing with it but it never seemed to be a common or regular thing. I have to say that my kids never did it. I'm not trying to sound smug here but just saying that it is out of my range of experience. I'm not sure why a child would repeatedly do these things. I know sometimes children like the cause and effect thing and it's fun/interesting to see what will happen if they do such and such but it seems more extreme with your daughter. Does she do these things when she can't get her own way or for some other reason? sorry you don't have to answer these questions at all if they seem a bit rude but as you've mentioned it I am genuinly interested.

coco

is your child autistic

No, she's not autistic. She's just a normal three year old.
She definately acts out when she's thwarted in getting her way.

My aunt has been here for a couple of days, she's worked in the medical and education fields for many years as well as being a mom herself (of the aforementioned brilliant and well behaved daughter) so I asked her about my wee girl and mentioned some of the things you guys have suggested. She looked at my like I was crazy... Seriously you guys, this is normal behavior for a 3 year old. There is no reasoning or rationalising with a toddler, they are all basically hooligans. My other mum friends of same aged kids agree. Her behavior is totally common for her age.

Coco, maybe your daughter would benefit from some orthomolecular-type vitamin & mineral supplementation. I have heard great things about this approach. It's not the parents' fault nor is it a psychological problem.

In some children (and adults), a good diet isn't enough. All kinds of things happen during gestation that can erupt later in life and then be blamed on terrible twos or threes or...when it's just a vitamin deficiency or dependency.

Coco, I got the impression that your daughter was acting differently than your other child did at the same age. I read something upthread but it's way too late to weed through everything. Kicking and biting when she is not taught to do so seems extreme at three. Had you said one and a half, I could kind of see it. Horsea, with all due respect neither you nor I know what is going on. Maybe it's in the normal range, but it wouldn't hurt to explore this with professionals who are into holistic healing, not prescribing drugs. It's better to nip it in the bud rather than allowing her to get older and more used to these actions.

That's exactly correct, Banana, I don't know what is going on and that is why I recommend going to a doctor who is open to all sorts of approaches including the orthomolecular one as well as any and all other approaches. "Nipping something in the bud" implies willfulness on the part of a child. Kids of such a young age are not willful, they are expressing some internal biology. Further examination is required.

But I think you would agree with me, Horsea, that we are not just a bag of bones. I would even go so far to say that everything (including physical manifestation) begins in consciousness and not the other way around.

smack the hell out of their bitchy asses

Had enough of this topic, eh, eaglefly?


My favorite raw vegan

For sure my two babies are very different, extremely different temperaments (they don't share the same father). He was very whiney and cried a lot but he is organized like me, put all his toys away in the right bins starting from the age of 2, was a good listener but a terrible sleeper. She was born happy and easy, a great sleeper, she's one of those kids that likes to spread all her toys out all over the floor and doesn't like to tidy up and when she doesn't get her way she has a temper tantrum. He listened, she doesn't. He cried and whined a lot, she is very happy except when thwarted and even then it doesn't last for more than a minute. It IS normal behavior for her age, every single mom of similar aged kids (most of them have 2-4 young children) that I've spoken to as well as my aunt (who is an educator) and my daughter's Godfather (who is an Doctor and has 6 children of his own) are baffled by the level of my concern. We all have issues with discipline and guiding our children in their behavior that concern us as parents of course. But she's totally and completely normal for her age, maybe even a little bit more wonderful .

I do thank you all for your concern and I'll certainly be wary of this phase if it goes on for what I consider too long but I think this whole discussion just illustrates my point. Even with details it's impossible for us to know or to judge a situation by just a news blurb or a limited conversation. Without actual experience of the temperaments and characters of the people involved and the situation itself, we just can't know what's really going on.


If anyone else wants to send a PM to the moderator requesting a parenting forum here go for it. Maybe if we express some more interest we'll see it happen. That would be great.

Hmm...I was also thinking about diet. You mentioned that before you would never have imagined giving your kids icecream but now that you're a parent...Perhaps even with natural foods, it could be an allergen? Also, could it be that she has ADHD? You describe her as a whirlwind, almost. If she is three and still impulsive enough to run into the traffic, perhaps she is hyperactive? Does she have trouble sitting still in general, compared to children her age? I am not hyper but I am challenged when it comes to time management, organization, focus on stuff which doesn't completely grab my interest...But ADHD is the super energy people. And I think one drug-free way to cope with this is to provide more exercise than for the average kid, coupled with a diet which doesn't include foods that trigger episodes (you'd have to get her tested for allergies and intolerances, I would think, because sometimes it may even be healthy foods which she cannot eat). Does she have visitation with her father? Sometimes with shared custody, one parent disciplines the child totally differently and the child runs wild under the other parent's care. Good luck. One reason I didn't have children is that it seems sooo hard, but I am sure it's worth it!

i think shes being a 3 yer old,

my friend has a little girl (3 year old) that can drop you at 50 paces with just one look from her stink-eye

she is just turning 4 soon and is just starting to be able to rationalize with and understand some what cause and effect

up till lately she has been a real handfull for my friend and far different then her other child (a boy)
)
there is a good reason (s) we call her hurricane sally

im gonna guess she is gonna mature into a strong little girl, with all sorts of ideas and opinions of her own

i say just hang in there and cultivate her strenghts !!

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

JGunn: To quote Coco: "She's VIOLENT." She mentioned that she had a tantrum which lasted 20 minutes before falling asleep. She mentioned pulling her brother's hair, throwing toys at him...a bit different from merely being headstrong. If you go upthread, you can read her whole post, which was followed by concerned comments by others and then it was made to seem that everything was not really that bad. But if you look at the original statement about her child, it was a bit more emphatic that her child had periods of being out of control and just the way Coco stated it, I took from her that it deviated from her other child and other children and that she wasn't used to that level of angst or turbulence. Believe me, I would be freaked out, frustrated, and every other similar emotion if I had to deal with this 24/7. But when Coco mentioned that her daughter has a different father than her other child, I wondered if her daughter sees her dad and if anything is going on when they get together that would cause her to get so angry at home. It's just one thought of many, but I do think that looking into these possibilities now is a good idea. The sooner she can learn how to control her emotions better, the better. And the main thing is that it sounds like she flies into these fits out of proportion for what is happening. That'll be five cents, please! LOL



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2010 07:27PM by banana who.

Her dad is gone completely. We do see little's papa when we get into Toronto about twice/year, they both call him dad, he encourages this though he doesn't participate outside of these visits. We have a good relationship, he's just a completely irresponsible artist. We have a few solid male role models (and female too) that we see regularly, they are not lacking in good guidance/examples in that way.
When she has a temper tantrum she gets really mad, she likes to have her way and she'll kick and wriggle and struggle to get away. If she's thwarted while playing she will throw things, if her brother is pesting her she'll pull his hair, if they're playing and she gets carried away she'll bite him. The 20 minute freak out happened the one time I tried that restraining method which I will never use again. She gets over being angry in minutes most of the time, her temperament is generally very nice. It's just when she's having herself a moment that it's utter madness. But she can certainly sit down to something that she likes for long periods of time.

Little man was not like her, he didn't throw or bite or pull hair but he also didn't have a much bigger sibling and all their friends to contend with. And he was irrational and unreasonable (which he expressed with wailing and whining) until he was about 3 1/5 or so. I think it's the age. She sounds like your friend's daughter Jodi. Hurricane Sally for sure!