loeve,
There is always forest products. In fact I find it strange that humanity ever adopted tillage and grain production, especially given that forest products are generally more nutrient dense, and I believe humans are better adapted to them.

la_veronique,
My parents raised me LDS. I think what she did was based on some misunderstanding of the LDS food code. Something about one of the founders refusing to drink a shot of wiskey before having a wound tended to. I was supposed to follow that in a way. Novacaine is a synthetic derivative of cocaine, so it sort of makes sense. However, its not the general practice and belief of LDS people in general to avoid medical anthesesia when needed.

I found the general code to be kind of nonsense in a way. Its supposed to be for health, but some very unhealthy things can be consumed while technically following the code.

La V one of the things the JW won't allow is blood transfusions. They make the dr sign a form saying that they won't give them blood during an operation even if it means dying on the table. Can you imagine refusing your own child a life saving blood transfusion. There have been many court cases over stuff like that here.

crazy people. with views like that how can you take anything they say seriously?

"forest products are generally more nutrient dense"

-a coconut grove would suit me but that would require a major move.

Regarding what sorts of people take down cities I might have had it all wrong --

"Profiles
Forensic psychiatrist and former foreign service officer Marc Sageman made an "intensive study of biographical data on 172 participants in the jihad," in his book Understanding Terror Networks.[22] He concluded "social networks," the "tight bonds of family and friendship" rather than behavioral disorders "poverty, trauma, madness, [or] ignorance," inspired alienated young Muslims to join the jihad" and kill.[23]

"Author Lawrence Wright describes the characteristic of "displacement" of members of the most famous Islamic terrorist group, Al-Qaeda.

"What the recruits tended to have in common – besides their urbanity, their cosmopolitan backgrounds, their education, their facility with languages, and their computer skills – was displacement. Most who joined the jihad did so in a country other than the one in which they were reared. They were Algerians living in expatriate enclaves in France, Moroccans in Spain, or Yemenis in Saudi Arabia. Despite their accomplishments, they had little standing in the host societies where they lived. ...."[24]"

[en.wikipedia.org]

The JWs who visit me are an articulate and close knit group, though none native to this locale.

hey mislu

it is interesting that you interpreted God frowning upon 'Cain due to his agricultural offering. it is a deep analysis due to the fact that agriculture, of course, is the origin of sedentarianism ( urban as opposed to foraging lifestyle) as you pointed out. and of course, sedentarianism, taken to its extreme looks like the present age with its neverending capacity to pillage and de- fortify all the natural elements inherent.

loeve,

i was aware of the JW refusing blood transfusions
the opinions opposing that are , perhaps, too obvious to state
so i will keep them to myself

Since you guys brought up the subject, that's one thing I admire about JWs and their Bible interpretation, their belief that the life/soul of an animal/human is in its blood, what I mean to say is they believe animals have souls --

Genesis 9:1-29

1 And God went on to bless Noah and his sons and to say to them: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth. 2 And a fear of YOU and a terror of YOU will continue upon every living creature of the earth and upon every flying creature of the heavens, upon everything that goes moving on the ground, and upon all the fishes of the sea. Into YOUR hand they are now given. 3 Every moving animal that is alive may serve as food for YOU. As in the case of green vegetation, I do give it all to YOU. 4 Only flesh with its soul—its blood—YOU must not eat. 5 And, besides that, YOUR blood of YOUR souls shall I ask back. From the hand of every living creature shall I ask it back... [www.watchtower.org]

The bad news is that it's not just cattle and "clean" animals that had to worry about hungry humans from then on out.

By the way, the emphasis (i.e. caps) is part of their Bible, at least the way it's presented at this website.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/21/2010 07:17PM by loeve.

oh

i see

la_veronique,
Yes, its an interesting passage. Of course at a later time in jewish history, agriculture is adopted. By the time of christianity, major agricultural products are considered a symbol of good things, for isntance bread. So the intrepretation has limitations as far as what the general monotheist believes, as most people now believe its fine, or a necessity, fact of life etc...It doesn't seem that way early on, considering the eating of bread, and tilling the ground is a specific curse given by yahweh after eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The other curse is to have a difficult child birth. Its pretty strange, as don't a lot of raw foodist women have an easier time with child bearing than someone eating bread, meat, and other cooked items?

Mislu: I always thought it was cool that Mormons eschewed caffeine until I heard about Mormon tea, which apparently is ephedra! So they are still catching a mean buzz, LOL.

How horrific is it that someone can believe that a creature has an immortal soul but still Murder and then EAT that creature?! OMG that just makes it so much worse, what kind of people DO such a thing? Ugh. Sick, sick, sickos.
Eating meat is a satanic ritual, I'm telling you. Sacrifice, fire ritual, devour.

hi mislu

there is a lot of threads within your post

1) earth yields
a) bread
b) fruit
c) plants

then you lumped a) bread b) meat and "other cooked items" into another category

the complication occurs cuz the earth yields both items

grains ( which are usually cooked)

and fruit and veggies ( which are usually not cooked)

tuberous veggies are usually cooked in most cultures except our raw food culture

i felt that , in looking at it from the "sedentarianism/agricuture" is bad perspective: the thing that is "bad" is the fact

that when people stay in one place, hoarding takes place and with hoarding comes greed and also, with agriculture-sedentarianism gone rampant

the human species , unlike most animal species, have no concept whatsoever of its carrying capacity because the tilling and settling on the soil ( as opposed to foraging and nomadic ways ) gives an artificial sense that the land can carry as many people as they wish to ad infinitum

and when technology is increased ( as a result of sedentarianism which arose from agriculture), you have the ever pressing dilemma that we have now on the earth, in the air, and the oceans

but perhaps the bible was not alluding to that whatsoever because all it says is that the creator was angry and does not mention why


loeve,

so, i am ignorant, do JW eat meat then if they are not allowed to give or receive blood of any kind?

i mean, if they are not to take blood. does not meat count as blood from other animals as well?

does that mean they are all vegetarian?

I'm always watchful when reading different translations for those that say animals have souls. Now I wonder how JWs define soul. I can't remember... seems to me something to the effect that it dies when they do, so the hope for the end of the world to come soon to spare them that.

I've known a few devout JWs and none has been a vegetarian or observed religious fasts or anything like that. Odd.

If JWs believe the soul is in the blood then having part of someone else's soul transfused into their body would also be odd, sort of the opposite of vampirism, maybe.

I wonder if Buffy the Vampire Slayer was a JW?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2010 11:55PM by swimmer.

so, i am a bit confused

so , the JW's believe that it is wrong to receive blood transfusions and are willing to die as a result of their faith

and then also eat meat?

but meat contains blood. other animals' blood to be exact

just trying to see if i am understanding this correctly

I don't know about Buffy the character, and don't believe Sarah Michelle Prinze is a JW.

With JWs Venus and Serena Williams I wonder how two sisters with different genetic makeup could be such top slayers on the tennis court for so long, and besides they have dual careers, Serena an actress and Venus a fashion designer. Now I wonder if Venus mixes types of threads, anyway shes got it going.

Banana who,
"Mormon tea" was so named as an insult, the belief at the time was that it cured VD. This was during the time the LDS were practicing plural marriage. I don't think that ephedra is commonly consumed by LDS people. Maybe some might consume it if they get TCM treatments. The american version is a bit different from the chinese version, westerners also use it differently.

la_veronique
Thats true, it is complicated. Some cultures were not agricultural, but very dependent on animal products, and one can be vegetarian or vegan and agricultural. The animal eating non-agricultural cultures of the world are pretty rare today, as non-agricultural cultures are in general. Agriculture is how most people on earth get their food. So, yes, I am sure I got a lot of things not quite accurate, or complete.

Mislu: [en.wikipedia.org]

It says nothing about it being a derrogatory term, but if you lived it, I will defer to you. I hope I didn't offend you! I have heard this used before and it was stated in a matter-of-fact way, not to insult LDS peeps.

Mislu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Loeve,
> As a child I had my teeth worked on without
> novacaine, at least for a while, because my mother
> wanted me to remain "Drug free". Ever have a tooth
> drilled like that? I bravely sat there


Idid, I had 8 cavities drilled out with nothing at all for the pain, its pretty horrendous... And im sorry that happened to you too Mislu, And maybe in a way it was religions fault, or just a relatively crazy person grasping to religion, but christianity, true christianity, isnt about religion, its about a relationship with God... and those who get stuck up in the religion, the legalism...Ive noticed tend to lose sight of what they say are the basis of their beliefs...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

la_veronique Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> so, i am a bit confused
>
> so , the JW's believe that it is wrong to receive
> blood transfusions and are willing to die as a
> result of their faith
>
> and then also eat meat?
>
> but meat contains blood. other animals' blood to
> be exact
>
> just trying to see if i am understanding this
> correctly


The JWs make sure that there's no visible blood in the meat that they eat. I learned this from a JW girl I went to school with. It's all a bunch of g.d. hooey in any case. Imagine all the blood produced if you actually kill the animal yourself (which some JWs who live on small farms undoubtedly do) and you are just surrounded and stained with blood, but then if a drop enters your stupid gullet you go apeshit. FEH.

Genesis 9:1-2

1 And God went on to bless Noah and his sons and to say to them: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth. 2 And a fear of YOU and a terror of YOU will continue upon every living creature of the earth... [www.watchtower.org]


JWs know this. I never noticed the word "continue".

Genesis 7:1-2

1 After that Jehovah said to Noah: “Go, you and all your household, into the ark, because you are the one I have seen to be righteous before me among this generation. 2 Of every clean beast you must take to yourself by sevens, the sire and its mate; and of every beast that is not clean just two... [www.watchtower.org]


The most common version is that Noah loaded up the ark 2 by 2 of each species, but Noah also loaded them 2 by 7 (according to one of the three accounts presented in the Bible) favoring the "clean beasts", some of which were sacrificed when finding dry land - another thing I learned on this thread.

clean

unclean

i give up

i think i'll just call it a day

la_veronique,

Don't sweat it, kiddo--Noah and his near decendants were polytheistic pagans(Jews didn't become monotheists until the second Babylonian Captivity). It sound like Noah was being ordered around by several of his gods, and they didn't bother to have a convo before issuing their requests



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/24/2010 04:05PM by Tamukha.

Some say there are two Biblical creation accounts, one of priestly origin and one tribal; 3 accounts of loading the ark, and there are 4 gospels, Mathew, Mark, Luke and John. The authors could have declined to record various tribal, priestly and gospel stories and beliefs but instead wrote them all down for others to decide.

Ha, this is the sort of thing that made the JWs (and my priest) want to stick to the format.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/25/2010 01:10AM by loeve.

loeve,

I'm co-opting this for daily use:

Stick to the format!

There you go.

i am going to place FOUR mats in front of my door

and then rub myself with crazy glue

and just lie on the mats

I take orders VERY seriously !

It's all just stories for goodness sake. I cannot understand how anyone can take all this stuff seriously. Fairy tales.