banana,
Well, I am not active lds anymore, and have not been for over 20 years. Where I got that info was from a book "edible plants and animals".The book mentions some use against veneral disease, as does this link.
[www.herbs2000.com]
That its also used for other conditions.

No, just information, no offense.

Coco,
"Eating meat is a satanic ritual, I'm telling you. Sacrifice, fire ritual, devour."

In actual fact, the Jewish faith has a number of sacrifices, burnt offerings etc... Christianity has the ultimate animal sacrifice...that of a human. Although there are a number of people doubt that the person 'jesus' ever existed.

In addition vegetarians are rather a minority of practitioners of the monotheistic faiths. The jewish faith does not forbid the eating of animals, and neither do the majority of christians.

Sorry, just a few things which I have noticed, and found difficult to believe in. Its probably not the right forum for discussion.

Dear God LV, you get more hilariously awesome bit by bit...lol

And flipperjan, its no more a fairytale than yours or any other belief systems, we could all be right, we could all be wrong, none of us have any way of knowing for sure, yet.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

Would like to point out mislu, that the existence of Jesus as at least a human is not being contested by any historians, only by a few fringe elements with nothing but their own personal beliefs to back them up, historical evidence proves his existence, but not really who or what he was, whether the stories about him are real, embellished, or outright fabricated, but one way or another, he made a huge impression on the world...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

Curator,

Actually no secondary source has ever verified Jesus's existence; Irineus's account is accepted by most mainstream theologians to have been a forgery. I must say, that as someone who's studied history and knows how ridiculously easy it is for important personages to fall through the cracks of documentation, I tend to believe Jesus the Nazarene existed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/28/2010 02:23PM by Tamukha.

i saw Elvis

Really? I must say it has been many many years since ive researched it, so I dont remember much, but I could have swore there where even depictions of christs "miracles" in egypt dated to supposedly have been made around the time he was alive? Im not really sure though, my memory is fuzzy after such along time of not using the data.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

Curator,

No. The Horus myth may be what you're thinking of; predates Jesus by a couple millenia and is where, "I am the Way, the Truth, the Light, whosoever believeth in me shall not perish, but live eternal" comes from. I like to think that, for that decade between His adolescence and ministry, Jesus was hanging out in India, because His diction in the Gospels is all Buddhist koans.

Curator
This is perhaps the best skeptical review on the topic. The most interesting section is "IF JESUS, THEN WHY NOT HERCULES"
[www.nobeliefs.com]

The other half of it, has to do with the whole idea that god required a sacrifice for sins. It seems to me that something that is supposed to be that powerful, creative and intelligent, could think of something better. Notably something NOT violent and bloody to solve the the problem of 'sin'. It makes me wonder, "is that all they could come up with?"

Animal sacrifice went out with the destruction of the temple in Jeruselem in 79 AD, thank God, though prior to that sacrifices are tough to take, I agree.

Jim Walker of nobeliefs.com wrote another article on atoms (JWs are science guys too), and though I'm more into the string theory of matter, his closing comment caught my attention --

"If you delve into the strange world of atoms, you might start going crazy and start speaking to dogs: Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore." [www.nobeliefs.com]

I always thought talking to my dog was normal, though we didn't always quite get each other, but mostly I think we did.

i did

i really did

i saw elvis

he was in my fridge

and he was stealing some of my gold bell pepper and taking bites out of my butter lettuce

so

i shared some ( why not? i'm a nice person

seemed to appease him


and he crooned me a sad little song to thank me for sharing my food ( he secretly LOVED raw foods but didn't want to be considered a "wus" so he ate hamburgers, ice cream and balogna in public instead ( and no, that is not a bunch of baloney)



me n Elvis

he keeps me sane

he likes sunflower seed pate burgers with red onions and parsley too , nobody knew that


only MOI was privy to such information

that's right

Curator,
"... true christianity, isnt about religion, its about a relationship with God... "

Isn't that what everyone believes about their belief? Islam is about a relationship with Allah. Hindus, with shiva, Brahama or any number of other gods. I don't understand 'legalism'. Isn't that just someone following what their belief tells them to do or not do?

My own personal spiritual philosophy is about having a relationship with what some refer to as G_d. I think of it, G_d, as the divine spark that animates all life, down to the very molecules everything is made of. To me that's G_d and I don't know how anyone doesn't have a relationship with that, whether they are aware of it or not.

Coco,
That sounds different from what I have heard others say about Christianity not being a religion, but a relationship or a walk with jesus. Usually they mean reading the Bible, praying, being part of a body of believers.

What you are talking about sounds like something even a pagan might agree with. Even my partner might agree with it being an atheist, of course with a very different understanding of what 'god' is.

It sounds like same page, different book to me. I feel like I have a relationship with my spirituality, that I am walking with it and constantly discovering new facets that deepen my understanding of what I believe to be my connection to the Divine Spark of Life. I also think that I'm part of a body of believers in the very thing that I believe, there are many who feel as I do and even congregate in groups for meditation, prayer, chanting etc. And yes, it certainly does sound like something anyone might agree with, it's fairly all-encompassing. I don't think what I'm describing and any other G_d philosophy are mutually exclusive... I just think that some people and/or groups feel a need to be the Inflexible One Right Belief and that messes everything up for everyone.

i believe that its true
that we all have a relationship with what coco refers to as the "divine spark" whether we want to or not
are aware of it or not

as far as one religion or figure or god or goddess being the ONE thing

makes no sense
what about people who were born blind ( say they also could not read braille for whatever reason)
or were born with severe brain damage
or were deaf

thus could not read any scriptural or other religious passages
or hear any sermons
or see any statues or figurines

for any one religion to say theirs is the only correct way

depending on their body of literature, statues, mantras etc.

is to exclude an incredible amount of people

Ok, well I am glad your not advocating something exclusive, and limiting. I have encountered that too many times.

The only thing that is real for us as individuals is what we perceive to be real anyhow so it's all down to personal perception even if we believe that we're following a scripture or set of rules laid out in minute detail. Words mean different things to different people, we are all unique in that way. So to say that one way is The Way is laughable in my mind, how is it One Way at all I ask? When we all find our own personal meaning in every single little detail anyhow...

I think that everything we do it connected to spirit whether it be reading a book, making a craft, learning about health, working out, making love, talking to someone, holding a child, having a bath... Everything, everything, everything is prayer in it's own way. Every action is a confirmation of connection to the divine, every breath, every move, every thought is a universe of molecules dancing in space, it's dynamic and wonderous and magnificent and Incredible!

I don't usually go on about spirituality, honestly it's just about the most private thing there is to me but I'm moved to share these thoughts with all of you right here and now so there they are... xo.

Coco,
Well, that is good I suppose. But I was raised with a similiar idea in the faith I was raised with, but often wished that nobody suggest that. I wanted baseball to just be baseball, chess chess, eating just eating etc... If you know anything about that faith, you could see why. It just makes it more difficult to leave without being reminded of it every now and again because it had such a far reaching impact on all aspects of life. The faith was also very controlling and judgemental about so many aspects of living.

I am envious of people who don't see the spiritual or religious aspect to almost everything. Mostly because they just 'are', which I guess is spiritual in a way. But its certainly different from a conscious thought that everything is spiritual. I don't know if I am making sense.

Mislu: I think you are confusing spirituality with organized religion, which carries a dogma with it. You know, their religion is the only one, you have to cram it down other people's throats, etc. I was blessed to grow up in a liberal Christian church which meant that they were much more into helping others via Jesus' teachings versus a heavy judgemental vibe and emphasis on sinning and going to Hell if you don't do X, Y, and Z. Although I am glad I was raised this way, it ultimately wasn't enough for me spiritually. I mean, I think it's great to help other people but even clothing people's bodies and feeding their bellies can only go so far. The problems of humanity are ultimately on a spiritual level. This would mean that those with the most wealth would not hoard it but distribute it. But how can we convince those at the top to do so? Even Queen Oprah is worth a billion dollars and imagine if she donated 950 million--what could we do with that? She would still have 50 million; I think that could suffice for her...But Chicago's CTA is needing about 200 million, our school system is a hot mess, there are families in homeless shelters...But she is sitting there with that massive wealth.

The Gates's donate half of their money and it's an obscene amount but they are still keeping that same obscene amount for themselves, it's a ridiculous amount of money for individuals to have. Very strange that.

Mislu, I think you would get a lot out of that book I'm always going on about, Loving What Is by Byron Katie. I know it took me a long time to forgive and forget religion in my life but once I did I was amazed and so pleased to find that I actually had a spiritual philosophy of my own that made me feel wonderfully connected to all of life in a peaceful and beautiful way. That negative history has no hold over me, I don't owe it a life-debt that demands I carry it with me all of my days. I gratefully let it go...

Mislu, I kind of went off on a tangent about Oprah's loot, LOL. For me, spirituality is being aware of that which is not temporary and not exclusive.So anything related to this world, which is not our permanent dwelling, I do not put very much stock in. Likewise, any path which says they have the only truth, I would never follow. However, I don't believe there are no rules. I believe in Universal Law, which does not discriminate but also does not have a one-size-fits-all policy. In other words, I believe karma exists, but I don't necessarily think that it follows specific rules. Intention is everything in my book.

banana who,
I tried going to a few liberal christian churches, and somehow it didn't appeal. I think something in the name 'jesus' has me permenantly turned off, anytime I hear it. I would be supportive, for the most part, except that I still have the image of a 'christian' being someone from the moral majority, or that phelps creep that shows up at funerals. Even being associated with liberal christianity feels like its too closely associated with that sort of thing.

As far as the hell, and sin goes, it is mentioned in the Bible. So, that is how those people come around to mentioning it. In general christianity puts almost all emphasis on the next life and what happens there is more important than what happens here.

I will give you a thumbs up for not being a literalist, and having a heart to see past all of that. But I have a difficult time, and generally associate negative things with the name of jesus.

Buddhism appeals to me, and hinduism, along with atheism. but I have noticed some annoying things with those also. The problem perhaps is that these philosophies are sort of 'pre made', and don't worry I find fault with them also in many ways.

Earlier in the thread I said JWs don't identify themselves as Christians but as Jehovah's Witnesses. I don't think that's quite true. The JW organization does consider itself a christian religion, and I recall one JW suggesting to me a reading of the Sermon on the Mount, a discourse of Jesus as found in the gospels, where such teachings as "love your enemy" can be found.

I still think they spend an awful lot of time in the Old Covenant.

Coco said:

Quote

The Gates's donate half of their money and it's an obscene amount but they are still keeping that same obscene amount for themselves, it's a ridiculous amount of money for individuals to have. Very strange that.

Well, I just feel that money is great, and the more the merrier; and if one person has a lot of money, that doesn't have a relationship to others not having much money; and if a person wants to give some or a lot of their money to others, that's great; but if a person has a lot of money and wants to keep it all themselves, or buy a lot of 'stuff' with it or hoard (this seems to be the new buzzword among a certain group these days) it, that's their choice, and they should not be FORCED to give their money to anybody else if they don't want to. I think Wealth Envy is a big problem of those who would take it from others who earned it and give it to someone else who didn't earn it.

Kidraw: That is my whole beef: who "earned" it? If you inherit money, is that earning it? You didn't work for it, now did you? If you have this extra money to invest and it earns dividends, is that earned money? If you have the money to start your own business and hire workers at low cost, are you "earning" that money? The problem is greedy, exploiting capitalists! A wealthy person who employs people and pays them handsomely is great but how often does that occur? In CA Meg Whitman, former CEO of Ebay (and, I believe, a millionaire) claimed she didn't know her maid was illegal. But the maid doesn't have papers. Was an illegal maid the only person in America that Meg could hire or is she a stingy, greedy capitalist who hires the cheapest laborer she can to maximize HER profits?

Er...I am replying to a different thread because somehow you quoted it from the other one...Bizarre...

Speaking of wealth, greed and opportunists, the JW who asked me if I would sell my house to him might have been a shark, according to my brother anyway who was visiting once during a JW visit. I'm not that good at reading people. What the heck, I can always build another one, but those who prey on others get a certain reputation. It takes all kinds and I still loved the guy and his wife and the other couple who stepped in with an offer. It ended well.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/10/2010 09:19PM by loeve.

Banana, I should have just said 'your money' instead of 'EARNED money'. Whether a person earns it, inherits it, invests it, whatever - it's their money and they can do whatever they want to with it. If someone inherits a lot of money, it's theirs to blow if they want to. If a person is wealthy and lives off investments, that's great. If a person has a business and it's successful and they make a lot of money, wonderful.

As far as 'greedy capitalists' - I would say that an employer who hires illegal aliens so they don't have to pay the regular wage, is 'greedy', yes.

To answer your question:

Quote

If you have the money to start your own business and hire workers at low cost, are you "earning" that money?

Yes, you are. As long as you're paying at least the legal 'minimum wage', you and the employee both agreed to his wage, so yes, that's earned money, of course

And you said:

Quote

A wealthy person who employs people and pays them handsomely is great but how often does that occur?

A good businessman would pay whatever the market dictates and what his business model will allow, so that he could make a profit to grow his business. And he would treat his employees such that they would not quit the job if they were not satisfied with the wages and conditions, I would imagine. There's probably a fine line between what he can afford to pay them and still be a successful businessman.


From what I read, Meg Witman didn't know her maid was illegal, the maid had been dishonest and fraudulent with her papers, and lied in saying she was legal. Meg Whitman got the maid through an agency, and the agency didn't know the maid was illegal, either. And Meg Whitman paid her $23 an hour.
So to answer your question:

Quote

Was an illegal maid the only person in America that Meg could hire or is she a stingy, greedy capitalist who hires the cheapest laborer she can to maximize HER profits?

I would say that the maid broke the law, is illegal and forged her papers, and lied and Meg Whitman is totally innocent.