Today, I read a 'status update' on a friends facebook page which I would like to base this post on.

Let me provide you with alittle background information. I added this friend, not because I know him/her, but because I was looking through his/her photo albums which send a strong message supporting pro-vegan. He/She was also posts links, quotes and such which I find fascinating. In a way, I needed that extra support to really remind me of why I make the choices I do, everyday. Similar to how I use this website and forum. My vegan friend proved beneficial until now.

I'm going to summarize his/her statement because I deleted him/her, therefore I can no longer reference the page.

It went something like this, "Today is not independence day, but rather dependence day. Its just like any other day. Freedom is not gained by stealing land, explosives, etc.. " (I can't remember, but it went on)

Is there something wrong with me for thinking this is completely inappropriate or should I say inconsiderate? AHHh Some of us have relatives who died for our country in which this person takes for granted. Lives were lost for your freedoms... including the choice to be sad/vegetarian/vegan.

its hard to stand behind a lifestyle when those in support of the same lifestyle makes statements like this that burn me up. Truly, I am throwing the baby out with the bath water. Everything I learned from her from posted news articles etc, I'm discrediting.

I'm proud of my country. If you're not proud of yours, please leave it.
Whats your take?

We're not supposed to discuss politics, here, kiddo.

As far as your friend goes, perhaps in her big picture, she sees disconsonants easily, like how rigid absolutism is not generally peace promoting, and that this conflicts with veganism as a usually peace promoting lifestyle. I find rah-rah anything offensive, because dogmatism stunts self-assessment and, in turn, self-evolution, a main reason I have undertaken the raw foods lifestyle, myself

Mah bad Tammukha!

How can one reap the benefits of absolutism, however, speaks of it with such disdain?

I guess similar to how people reap the benefits of peace promoting life style ignorant to conflict in the world. Touche'

At some point we are all dogmatic, including my own message posted above, but I disagree that it doesn't promote self-evolution.

I'm evolving having this conversation with you.

I'll stop

Newhoove, read up on the history of the Indians in this land. The Trail of Tears is real shameful episode of American injustice. They murdered the Indians and stole their land. America lied and broke every treaty. In California the state and federal government paid a bounty to slaughter Indians, a true genocide.

For me it took a very focused, critical read of a stack of books 12' high on war in general and the Vietnam war in particular to see clearly the dark side of American war making.

You will only be convinced if you undertake the hard work of focused scholarship necessary to see thru the dissembling, spinning, and prevaricating.

Brome,
This thread is political in nature, so therefore I'm not going to contribute much more other than revisiting your historical references.

Your response is just that, spinning and prevaricating from the original argument at hand that independence day should not be disrespected. Using post July 4, 1776 horrific events (that I do not agree with) to disprove a celebration of something that occurred 50 some years earlier is asinine.

I'm going to re-iterate I apologize for opening a political thread.

Hmm, newhoove has taken to insults to try to make his point.

Such lack of civility is exactly why politics has been banned.

All I can add to improve the discussion is that Native Americans, first nations or aboriginals might be a better term than "Indians". I'm not from India. Several years ago someone suggested that I read 'bury my heart at wounded knee'. I just couldn't read it.

I've never really felt 'free' in this country. I must have a wrong concept, because I never felt like I could just do anything I wanted. I never really felt like I had a lot of opportunties either. Then again, I must be missing some information about how to make that happen. I also grew up with a lot of hypocrasy. My father always liked to talk about freedom, but if I ever said I wanted to believe in a different religion, I was welcome to move out.

There is an interesting question, what country would I prefer to live in? I don't know how many are where I could be welcome. But believe it or not, I thought N. Korea would be interesting, were it not for its poverty, and other factors I would probably find distressing. Just the fact that it doesn't have lights on at night! That would be the only thing, not lights at night! but somehow thats not enough!

Interesting question Mislu! I never put much thought into which country I'd prefer to live (based on acceptance) since I have little experience over seas. My kneejerk reaction would be australia or something

I've lived in several communities in USA which I was the minority and always felt a sense of belonging (african american, Indians). I worked in a multicultural environment which also was welcoming.

I have a friend who really enjoyed living in Alaska. The day and night thing is not exactly my cup of tea. I would have difficulty falling asleep if sunshine was all day!

I have been to S. Korea, and I liked it. I liked the parts of canada I have been to, just B.C. and Yukon. I have seen videos of denmark and holland, those seem really nice.

newhoove Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Today, I read a 'status update' on a friends
> facebook page which I would like to base this post
> on.
>
> Let me provide you with alittle background
> information. I added this friend, not because I
> know him/her, but because I was looking through
> his/her photo albums which send a strong message
> supporting pro-vegan. He/She was also posts
> links, quotes and such which I find fascinating.
> In a way, I needed that extra support to really
> remind me of why I make the choices I do,
> everyday. Similar to how I use this website and
> forum. My vegan friend proved beneficial until
> now.
>
> I'm going to summarize his/her statement because I
> deleted him/her, therefore I can no longer
> reference the page.
>
> It went something like this, "Today is not
> independence day, but rather dependence day. Its
> just like any other day. Freedom is not gained by
> stealing land, explosives, etc.. " (I can't
> remember, but it went on)
>
> Is there something wrong with me for thinking this
> is completely inappropriate or should I say
> inconsiderate? AHHh Some of us have relatives who
> died for our country in which this person takes
> for granted. Lives were lost for your freedoms...
> including the choice to be sad/vegetarian/vegan.
>
>
> its hard to stand behind a lifestyle when those in
> support of the same lifestyle makes statements
> like this that burn me up. Truly, I am throwing
> the baby out with the bath water. Everything I
> learned from her from posted news articles etc,
> I'm discrediting.
>
> I'm proud of my country. If you're not proud of
> yours, please leave it.
> Whats your take?

I don't think I would have been that strident about it, but I agree with the person on FB. If you are a vegan and are in favor of life, you have to allow it all around, which means NOT KILLING. Being "proud of your country" does NOT include things in which our country does which are horrendous. Right now we are engaged in three illegal, immoral wars. Whether or not you have relatives who have died for this country doesn't change that innocent people are dying overseas because of our policies. I don't like when foreigners come to the USA and then dis us: treat us like we are stupid, inferior, etc. and yet here they are. But me? I can criticize this country all day long if I wish and I don't consider that "politics" but about right and wrong. And no, I don't have to leave if I don't follow lockstep with the policies set in place by God knows who! How dangerous it is to even think of practicing that and abdicating our personal responsibility as individual souls...Toodles! (How's that for not being strident?)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2011 10:38PM by banana who.

[www.chattoogariver.org]

[en.wikipedia.org]


Actually, this whole thing really steams me! I mean, have you never watched Ken Burns' "The West" series on PBS? Go check it out of the library, watch it and get back to me. Unrelentingly sad and infuriating. I love what America claims to be, not what has happened. But I have to say, Americans are like the cool clique in high school that everyone talks about (regardless of what they are really saying!). We have brought much to the world and many people still clamor to come here. But that doesn't mean we have serious issues and leaving is not the answer!

i like Fraser Valley, BC Canada

no natural disasters
no crazy toxic critters
no extreme weather
no excessively large animals that want to kill me

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

Thanks for the response banana who. I'll be sure to check out "The West". I love watching documentaries. Your beliefs are well respected. I'm still pretty solid on the pride of my country.

Tough crowd

Jgunn are you trying to recruit people?
Dang those canadians!

lol sure come on up .. just avoid the hockey games .. they cause riots lol

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

[www.youtube.com]

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

Yea i know that you wanna be canadian please
even if in the winter things tend to freeze
we got the world monopoly on the trees
and our country is bordered by three different seas

Yea i know that you wanna be canadian please
we invented the zipper, we got expertise
we made insulin to combat disease
Yeah i know that you wanna be canadian please

Brits have got the monarchy
the US has the Money
but i know that you want to be canadian
the french have got the wine and cheese
koalas chill with the aussies
but i know that you want to be canadian

Et si ce n'etait pas assez
On a deux langeus officielles;
l'anglais et le francais
ooh la la !

Yeah I know that you wanna be canadian please
where else do you find mounted police
or go the hospital and not pay fees
Yea I know that you wanna be canadian please

and when fresh water is in high demand
we've got the worlds largest supply on hand
so you know that we could make a pretty good friend
but its even better if you can be...

Brits have got the monarchy
the US has the Money
but i know that you want to be canadian
the french have got the wine and cheese
koalas chill with the aussies
but i know that you want to be canadian

so youre thinking to yourself
how do i live in this beautiful country
well ive got some steps for you to follow

Step 1: lose the gun
Step 2: Buy a canoe
Step 3: Live multiculturaly
Step 4: Yer ready there is no more !

We got beavers, caribou and moose
we got buffalos, bears and canadian goose
and were sorry about Celine Dion
but she did do that good song for James Cameron

Brits have got the monarchy
the US has the Money
but i know that you want to be canadian
the french have got the wine and cheese
koalas chill with the aussies
but i know that you want to be canadian

the greeks all chilled with socrates
can't build a wall like the chinese
but i know that you want to be canadian

In kenya they have safaris
we've missed lots of other countries
but iknow that you want to be canadian

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

Jodi, ha-ha!

In my innermost soul, I believe I am a Canuck!

"and were sorry about Celine Dion
but she did do that good song for James Cameron"

hah! favorite line

newhoove Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for the response banana who. I'll be sure
> to check out "The West". I love watching
> documentaries. Your beliefs are well respected.
> I'm still pretty solid on the pride of my country.
>
>
> Tough crowd

No, thank you for seeing thru my comment and understanding that I meant nothing personally against you. I am thoroughly conflicted about my country because I know the history but like you, I don't hang my head for being an American. There is much to appreciate. If you enjoy history, definitely check out that documentary. It's a series so there's much to enjoy!

I have been to Niagra Falls, so I don't know if that technically counts as having visited Canada but I would like to check it out.

Tamukha Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> rigid absolutism is not generally peace promoting,
> and that this conflicts with veganism as a usually
> peace promoting lifestyle. I find rah-rah
> anything offensive, because dogmatism stunts
> self-assessment and, in turn, self-evolution, a
> main reason I have undertaken the raw foods
> lifestyle, myself

And here is an example of 'rigid absolutism' and 'rah-rah anything' and 'dogmatism' for you --

Australian Children are Being Terrified by Climate Change Lessons

[www.news.com.au]

[www.dailytelegraph.com.au]

This is so 'offensive'...





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2011 09:54PM by KidRaw.

No offense but I am SO glad I don't live in America and SO pissy about the "Americanization" that's unfolding the world over (my country included). July 1st is Canada day, there were some fireworks and a few people had beer and that's about it, no rabid patriotism involved.

coco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No offense but I am SO glad I don't live in
> America and SO pissy about the "Americanization"
> that's unfolding the world over (my country
> included). July 1st is Canada day, there were some
> fireworks and a few people had beer and that's
> about it, no rabid patriotism involved.

Coco, I am trying not to take offense but why are you SO glad not to live here? I think what bothers me these days from people outside the USA is that they are lumping in ALL Americans and ALL areas of America. If you have never seen the movie "Jesus Camp," go watch it because it's a very telling documentary. I heard someone say that besides a few major cites, America is like that documentary in terms of mentality! That scares the bejeebus outta me because it's so not my reality. I live outside Chicago in a liberal suburb and there are plenty of locales across the country where people are not like that, are not intolerant, are well-educated, yada yada. And I have gone back and forth with Canadians who made racist and/or sexist comments on Youtube, etc. and I was surprised because I assumed that all Canadians were uber enlightened, so I made the same mistake. I am tired of Americans getting kicked around because of the policies which I don't support. I am tired of foreigners looking down on us when they come here to live because they think we are stupid or something. Yes, some Americans are dumb as hell! Maybe the percentage is higher than in Canada--I dunno. But it just gets to me after a while to read negative comments about Americans as if we are a monolith.

I lived in the states for a while, I live in a border town right now, my parents live across the river and we visit regularly, I just got back from a month long course in the US. In my experience Canadians live an incredible lifestyle in an amazing social climate. We've got red necks and other idiots here for sure but I'll still take Canada over America any day.

Americans are just people, it's the culture in America that doesn't appeal to me. The guns, the politics, the corporate culture, rabid media etc. And the consumption. When we visit my mom I am shocked speechless by the mindless consumption. It's a disposable culture and that attitude is unfortunately finding it's way North.

Are you talking about waste or just fast food outlets all over and too much commercialism, stores, etc.? I live in a suburbs where the nearest Whole Foods (know how much you love that place, LOL) is about a 10-minute walk from my house. I guess I have lived a (somewhat) "city" life in that I don't need a car to get around and the rural areas are quite far away. My partner and I traveled to our friends who live west of here (about 1.5 hours drive) and it was supposedly 'rural' but even that is getting built up. I heard that Canada has the same land mass as the USA but only 10% the population. I would love that. But it would probably be very difficult to be able to live in Canada, at least beyond a certain time. They are very choosy apparently and it is costly as well. I guess I am used to our way of life but it does hurt a bit to hear people acting like it's so horrible to live here. I don't see it that way.

Waste. Street after street after street of retail stores and restaurants, very little recycling, hardly any composting.
Canada is the biggest country in the world but much of it is unlivable (Canadian Shield) and our population is close to that of California. Perhaps we have less nonsense simply because there are less people, who knows.