[ifile.it] here is a book. i called BS. i got this reply and i was wondering if anybody here can help my digest this and counter it.
much like the debunking of the weston price BA girl. maybe?

tia

There is no science behind the pro-vegetarian arguments, and neither are there any historical traditions for a mainly vegetarian diet.

Here you have some examples of true science not based on economical interests:

[www.second-opinions.co.uk]
[barrygroves.blogspot.com]
[www.westonaprice.org]
[raypeat.com]
[www.gutsense.org]
[www.beyondveg.com]
[www.gflinks.com]
[paleodiet.com]
[inhumanexperiment.blogspot.com]
[nomilk.com]

[www.cholesterol-and-health.org.uk]
[www.cholesterol-and-health.com]
[cholesterolisgood.blogspot.com]
[www.ravnskov.nu]
[www.lewrockwell.com]
[www.thincs.org]

If you read the info in these sites and see how they kill the cholesterol/saturated fats/meat is bad myths as well as the myths about a vegetarian diet being anything but bad for you in the long run you'll see for yourself what true science say about these matters. You may disagree as much as you like, but that don't change the documented facts about animal foods, butter, saturated fats and so on. I once believed the same as you and most of the people on the planet, but that was before I started to investigate the matters.

The Myths of Vegetarianism -
[chetday.com]
[www.westonaprice.org]
[articles.mercola.com]

Vegetarianism - What the Science Tells Us -
[trit.us]
[www.westonaprice.org]

Do Vegetarian Diets Really Work -
[articles.mercola.com]

The Naive Vegetarian -
[www.second-opinions.co.uk]
[articles.mercola.com]

Let them Eat Meat -
[letthemeatmeat.com]

Open Letter to Vegetarians -
[www.westonaprice.org]

Foolish Beliefs About Vegetarianism -
[www.karlloren.com]

Paleolithic Diet VS Vegetarianism -
[www.beyondveg.com]

Selected Myths of Raw Foods -
[www.beyondveg.com]

Strict Vegan Diets May be Dangerous -
[chetday.com]
[www.mercola.com]

The Awful Truth About Eating Grains -
[articles.mercola.com]
[www.healingnaturallybybee.com]

The Great Fallacies of Vegetarianism -
[www.vanguardonline.f9.co.uk]
[www.newtreatments.org]

The Vegetarian Fallacy -
[www.drhoffman.com]

This is just a small selection of the articles I have on a plant based diet. I have lots more, inluding a lot of research, about the fiber myth, the beta-carotene is pro-vitamin A myth, the cholesterol myth, the saturated fats cause disease myth, the antioxidants in plant foods myths, the grains are healthy myth and so on.

Some books -

Nutrition And Physical Degeneration 8th Ed. - Weston A Price, Keats Publishing Inc, 1939/2000, ISBN 0-87983-816-7
Nourishing Traditions : The Cookbook That Challenges Politically Correct Nutrition and the Diet Dictorats ? Sally Fallon, Mary D. Enig & Pat Connolly, New Trends Publishing, ISBN 0967089735
Know Your Fats: The Complete Primer for Understanding the Nutrition of Fats ?Mary D. Enig & Sally Fallon, Bethesda Press, ISBN 0967812607
Eat Fat Lose Fat - Dr. Mary Enig & Sally Fallon, A Plume Book, ISBN 0-452-28566-6
Eat Fat Get Thin: Eat As Much As You Like And Still Lose Weight! - Barry Groves, Vermilion, ISBN: 0091825938
Fats are Good for You and Other Secrets: How Saturated Fat and Cholesterol Actually Benefit the Body - Jon J. Kabara, North Atlantic Books, ISBN 1556436904
Fat and Cholesterol are Good for You - Uffe Ravnskov, GB Publishing, ISBN 919755538X
Natural Health & Weight Loss - Barry Groves, Hammersmith Press, ISBN 9781905140152
Trick and Treat: How ?Healthy Eating? is Making Us Ill - Barry Groves, Hammersmith Press, ISBN 978-1-905140-22-0
Good Calories, Bad Calories: Fats, Carbs, and the Controversial Science of Diet and Health ? Gary Taubes, Knopf, ISBN 1400040787
The Diet Delusion - Gary Taubes, Vermillion, ISBN 978-0-09-192428-7
Elixir Of Life ? Arnold DeVries, Chandler Book Company
Primitive Man and his Food ? Arnold DeVries, Higgins Incorporated,
Traditional Food Are Your Best Medicine - Ronald F Schmid, Healing Arts Press, ISBN 0-89281-735-6
Real Food - Joann S. Grohman, Coburn Press, ISBN 0963181408
My Life With The Eskimo - Vilhjalmur Stefansson, MacMillan Publishing
The Fat Of The Land - Vilhjalmur Stefansson, MacMillan Publishing
Hunters Of The Great North - Vilhjalmur Stefansson, Harcourt, Brace & Co
Cancer, Disease Of Civilization - Vilhjalmur Stefansson, Hill And Wang

Neander-thin, A Caveman`s Guide to Nutrition - Ray Audette, ISBN 0-9646345-1-1
Charles Hunt's Diet Evolution, Eat Fat & Get Fit - Charles Hunt, Maximum Human Potential Productions, ISBN 0-9630377-1-4
The Paleo Diet: Lose Weight and Get Healthy by Eating the Food You Were Designed to Eat ? Loren Cordain, Wiley, John & Sons, Incorporated, ISBN 0471413909
The Stone Age Diet - Leon Chaitow, Ebury Press, ISBN 0356123286
The Paleothic Prescription - Boyd S. Eaton, Marjorie Shostak & Melvin Conner, Harper and Row, ISBN 0060158719
The Primal Blueprint: Reprogram your genes for effortless weight loss, vibrant health, and boundless energy - Mark Sisson, Primal Nutrition, Inc, ISBN 0982207700
Primal Body-Primal Mind: Empower Your Total Health The Way Evolution Intended (...And Didn't) - Nora Teresa Gedgaudas, Primal Body-Primal Mind Publishing, ISBN 0982184107
Food and Evolution - Harris, Marvin & Eric B. Ross, Temple University Press, ISBN 0877226687
The Driving Force: Food, Evolution and the Future - Michael Crawford & David Marsh, Harpercollins, ISBN 0060390697
Health And The Rise Of Civilisation - Professor Mark Nathan Cohen, Yale University Press, ISBN 0300050232

Grain Damage: Rethinking The High Starch Diet ? D.N Graham
Gluten Intolerance ? Beatrice Trum Hunter, Keats Publishing Inc, ISBN 0-87983-435-8
The Book of Gluten - Stephen J Gislason, Environmed Research Inc.,
Cereal Killer - Alan L Watson, Diet Heart Publishing, ISBN 0972048111
Celiac Disease: A Guide to Living with Gluten Intolerance - Sylvia Llewelyn Bower, M.D., Demos Medical Publishing, ISBN 1932603255
Dangerous Grains: Why Gluten Cereal Grains May Be Hazardous to Your Health ? James Braly M.D., Ron Hoggan M.A, ISBN 1583331298
Going Against The Grain: How reducing and avoiding grains can revitalize your health ? Melissa Diane Smith, Contemporary Books, ISBN 0-658-01722-5
Life Without Bread - Christian B Allan, Ph.D & Wolfgang Lutz, M.D, Keats Publishing, ISBN 0-658-00170-1
Dismantling a Myth: The Role of Fat and Carbohydrates in Our Diet - Wolfgang Lutz, ISBN 0398053561
Fiber Menace: The Truth About the Leading Role of Fiber in Diet Failure, Constipation, Hemorrhoids, Irritable Bowel Syndrome, Ulcerative Colitis, Crohn's Disease, and Colon Cancer - Konstantin Monastyrsky, Ageless Press, ISBN 0970679645

The Whole Soy Story - Kaayla T. Daniel, PhD, CCN, New Trends Publishing, Inc., ISBN 0-9670897-5-1

life vs lifelessness

Wait... are you looking for things to help convince someone else or yourself? I've done plenty of research in my life for myself but this is a LOT of energy to expend just to argue the point with someone who doesn't agree with you.

Diogenez,

There is a tendency on that side, and alas, sometimes on ours, to apply one's specific dietary experience to all potential experiences in a general way that isn't supported by actual cogent data. Most of the things on that reading list exemplify this phenomenon. We've been through this many times on these boards already, and it's tiresome.

It is true that there is no traditional anthropological argument for veganism; there is increasing nutritional argument for it, which explains the panicking, but their "cultural" arguments are usually a straw man, anyway, used to promote panmeatism. It's not a scientific perspective they subscribe to--the latest science doesn't back them up--and what this person has sent you has a paucity of actual scientifc data. It appears to exhibit that most common of false arguments, "strength in numbers," i.e. my argument is valid because this huge number of sources says it is. The quality of the sources and their validity is immaterial. You cannot argue against this strategy--it's fallacious.

This may be heartening to you:

[vegetarianmythmyth.wordpress.com]

This site, though rigorous, still doesn't begin to scratch the surface of the errata of the opposing team. This does not mean we should resort to false arguments or fallacies as well, though. IMO, it's more important to live the veg life and reprazent, than to argue with people that do not make a fair argument to begin with and will not concede that you make legitimate points.

thank you that was perfect.

life vs lifelessness

Tamukha,
That was perhaps the most brief and to the point statement about veganism I have ever read. I found it refreshing in someways, a vegan actually observing millions of people consuming dairy and being open to them being healthy?

I don't know. The article implies a lot of subtle unsaid things. Like is it really healthy given that many don't get enough to eat of anything? let alone something ideal? Maybe we won't know until an equal number of people follow a vegan diet of some type.

I have never fully understood 'ethical' veganism, especially when it is followed with french fries and coke. (using hydrogenated vegetable oil naturally) Or like my study partner who was chowing down on these pretzles which were honey wheat sticks. Hes actually 'vegetarian'. He used to be vegan stictly,and complains about his weight gain. He knows that white flour is no good, but I guess he just likes the taste. Its difficult at times avoiding the vending machines, as I sometimes get stuff, but usually I feel sick after eating stuff from them.

Mislu,

if you are talking about that site, I think it's elegantly logical in the arguments it makes.

Personally, and I am not always vegan, though always vegetarian, but I don't buy the argument that people that are hungry should be able to eat whatever they want, if that's what you're implying. When one is undernourished or truly chronically hungry is exactly when one should be making the best food choices. The problem is that crap food for food deserts is all subsidized, whereas fresh produce isn't; I am so tired of seeing the struggle to get government funds to nutritious crops, like field vegetables, tree fruits, and legumes other than soy into our farm bill legislation--inSANity! By the way, I evaluate whether a product that purports to be food is health-giving rather than health-detracting right alongside whether that product's manufacturing requires harm to animals, in deciding whether a food is ethical. This disqualifies Coke in all cases



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2011 01:39PM by Tamukha.

well if one is truely hungry there probably isn't much food of any type. Animals will do what it takes to stay alive. I saw a video of vegetarian animals eating old dried up flesh simply because there wasn't anything else to eat. This was during a major drought.At that point the choice is food or no food, and possible death, not cho0sing between ideal and less ideal foods.

On the other points I totally agree, fresh fruits and produce should be promoted and subsidized, not corn, soy, processed foods or animal products. If it takes more resources to produce something I believe the consumer should pay the price.