Today I met a person who is checking out this area to move to. He was a very high paid corporate lawyer who got sick of the system and checked out. He's now trying to make it as a musician. He said that the only real and meaningful life anyone can have is in the arts. I can relate to that but don't know if its totally true. Any comments?

That may be true for him, but to generalize that to all people is goes way too far.

I mean...
Some people find meaning and fulfillment gardening. Others find it helping make the world a better place. Some find it in relationships or raising a family. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Who's to say what is the ONLY real and meaningful life?

I like being able to search and find out what that is for myself.
And, yes, I love the arts!


My favorite raw vegan

i think he is absolutely correct
but i would extend "the art" to mean anything that is meaningful to that individual
who is compelled to make an "art" out of it

business can definitely be an art
but if he is sick and tired of that
then it is no longer artistry

the spirit is stronger than anything

anything

Well, Trive, perhaps he means, "as a creative being"? The corporate world is fundamentally destructive, especially these days, and I can totally understand a person evolving self-awareness and wondering of that is the true actualization of their full potential, and wanting to instead focus on more creative interests of theirs.

I think, back2eden, that it's a common belief that a life in the arts, because it continuously satisfies a basic human impulse and is self-gratifying, is a top tier kind of life. I think it is, and wish I could engage in that better

Tamukha Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
The corporate world is fundamentally
> destructive,

I disagree with that blanket statement. Not all 'corporations' are fundamentally destructive.

Fascism is fundamentally destructive - Government and Large Corporations in bed together - is fundamentally destructive.

And Corporatism is fundamentally destructive.

[www.libertarianfaq.org]

So - Large Corporations controlled by Big Government using Rules and Regulations to kill the competition - Corporatism - is fundamentally destructive.

But not all Corporations are 'bad'.

And do not confuse "Corporatism" with "Capitalism" which is what made America the greatest economy in the world -

[www.libertarianfaq.org]

And do not confuse "Capitalism" with "Crony Capitalism" and "Crony Socialism", which is what we have today, which is fundamentally destructive.

Forgot to explain in my above reply what Fascism (which we have today) is -

[www.libertarianfaq.org]

Also on Corporatism --

[www.libertarianfaq.org]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2012 12:05PM by KidRaw.

la_veronique Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> i think he is absolutely correct
> but i would extend "the art" to mean anything that
> is meaningful to that individual
> who is compelled to make an "art" out of it
>
> business can definitely be an art
> but if he is sick and tired of that
> then it is no longer artistry


I agree with Veronique on this.

[en.wikipedia.org]

"Art is a term that describes a diverse range of human activities and the products of those activities..."

Trive Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That may be true for him, but to generalize that
> to all people is goes way too far.
>
> I mean...
> Some people find meaning and fulfillment
> gardening. Others find it helping make the world
> a better place. Some find it in relationships or
> raising a family. Etc. Etc. Etc.
>
> Who's to say what is the ONLY real and meaningful
> life?
>
> I like being able to search and find out what that
> is for myself.

Yes, I also agree with Trive.

Sorry for so many posts - too bad we can't edit for as long as we like - but this subject I have strong feelings about, it seems.

I also think that it's a choice. And I wouldn't agree with this choice for myself if it would mean that I didn't have financial security in my 'old age'. Maybe this guy has a nice nest egg so he can now afford to give up the corporate world, but for another person, if you work and don't like working, so you decide to quit and go live in the mountains, but you're broke and end up living off the government or on the street...I don't agree with that 'choice'.

A lot of people would rather bust their a** at a regular job (even with a dreaded 'corporation' of which we should be appreciative of because they provide jobs) and save for retirement for forty years and then live in security in their comfortable home in the mountains for the next thirty years (that would be me), rather than the insecurity of living in the mountains when you're young and able-bodied, and not worry about what's going to happen to you when you're old and broke.

The Ant and the Grasshopper.

I disagree with the guy you met, Alan, who said "The only meaningful life you can have is in the arts".

Not to mention that if a person wants to have a family - kids - it may be difficult to provide for them if he will only consider making a living 'in the arts'. And I don't believe in Government Subsidizing "The Arts".

Choices, nothing's black or white. Pros and cons.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2012 01:35PM by KidRaw.

I know I have found most of my meaning through the arts for sure!
I have done many paintings and sold them.
Built props from tv shows,along with many pieces of furniture.
I play the drums.
And even bodybuild.....the ultimate sculpture is the human body.

I have nothing to do with the corporate world out there.
I would find no satasfaction with that.

Vinny

KidRaw,

Why must every thread turn into an ideological freak-out?

I assumed--wrongly--that everyone would interpret my use of "corporate world" to refer to the private sector system that presently exists in this country(and elsewhere in the West), not an ideal, and which the erstwhile musician in back2eden's op comes from. I assumed--wrongly--that everyone would understand that I was suggesting that someone with self-awareness and an artistic bent would not find life in that system fundamentally fulfilling.

Thanks, though, for the full Friedman treatment. I went to college and know all that stuff, LOL!

I ran across this quote the other day - and tho I agree living artistically & soulfully is different for each person I wouldn't want to live on a planet w/o the beauty of the arts:

During the Second World War, Winston Churchill’s finance minister said Britain should cut arts funding to support the war effort.

Churchill’s response: “Then what are we fighting for?”

I'm with LV, you can get everything which is worth doing to the level of art. Especially law lol

>Banana ice-cream rocks!<

Tamukha,

You are the one who first spouted political ideology and rhetoric when you said -

"The corporate world is fundamentally destructive."

I was merely responding to your falsehood and clearing up that myth with the facts, and I cited my 'sources'.

If you want to continue with this line, please retrace and give me some 'credible' resources that illustrate your statement that "The corporate world is fundamentally destructive."

Click here to find out more!


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quote from a person I met today new
Posted by: back2eden ()
Date: July 31, 2012 11:56PM


Today I met a person who is checking out this area to move to. He was a very high paid corporate lawyer who got sick of the system and checked out. He's now trying to make it as a musician. He said that the only real and meaningful life anyone can have is in the arts. I can relate to that but don't know if its totally true. Any comments?


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Re: quote from a person I met today new
Posted by: Trive ()
Date: August 01, 2012 12:53AM


That may be true for him, but to generalize that to all people is goes way too far.

I mean...
Some people find meaning and fulfillment gardening. Others find it helping make the world a better place. Some find it in relationships or raising a family. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Who's to say what is the ONLY real and meaningful life?

I like being able to search and find out what that is for myself.
And, yes, I love the arts!


My favorite raw vegan


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Re: quote from a person I met today new
Posted by: la_veronique ()
Date: August 01, 2012 01:12AM


i think he is absolutely correct
but i would extend "the art" to mean anything that is meaningful to that individual
who is compelled to make an "art" out of it

business can definitely be an art
but if he is sick and tired of that
then it is no longer artistry

the spirit is stronger than anything

anything


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Re: quote from a person I met today new
Posted by: Tamukha ()
Date: August 01, 2012 05:14AM


Well, Trive, perhaps he means, "as a creative being"? The corporate world is fundamentally destructive, especially these days, and I can totally understand a person evolving self-awareness and wondering of that is the true actualization of their full potential, and wanting to instead focus on more creative interests of theirs.

I think, back2eden, that it's a common belief that a life in the arts, because it continuously satisfies a basic human impulse and is self-gratifying, is a top tier kind of life. I think it is, and wish I could engage in that better


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Re: quote from a person I met today new
Posted by: KidRaw ()
Date: August 01, 2012 07:36AM


Tamukha Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
The corporate world is fundamentally
> destructive,

I disagree with that blanket statement. Not all 'corporations' are fundamentally destructive.

Fascism is fundamentally destructive - Government and Large Corporations in bed together - is fundamentally destructive.

And Corporatism is fundamentally destructive.

[www.libertarianfaq.org]

So - Large Corporations controlled by Big Government using Rules and Regulations to kill the competition - Corporatism - is fundamentally destructive.

But not all Corporations are 'bad'.

And do not confuse "Corporatism" with "Capitalism" which is what made America the greatest economy in the world -

[www.libertarianfaq.org]

And do not confuse "Capitalism" with "Crony Capitalism" and "Crony Socialism", which is what we have today, which is fundamentally destructive.


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Re: quote from a person I met today new
Posted by: KidRaw ()
Date: August 01, 2012 07:59AM


Forgot to explain in my above reply what Fascism (which we have today) is -

[www.libertarianfaq.org]

Also on Corporatism --

[www.libertarianfaq.org]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2012 08:05AM by KidRaw.


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Re: quote from a person I met today new
Posted by: KidRaw ()
Date: August 01, 2012 08:55AM


la_veronique Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> i think he is absolutely correct
> but i would extend "the art" to mean anything that
> is meaningful to that individual
> who is compelled to make an "art" out of it
>
> business can definitely be an art
> but if he is sick and tired of that
> then it is no longer artistry


I agree with Veronique on this.

[en.wikipedia.org]

"Art is a term that describes a diverse range of human activities and the products of those activities..."


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Re: quote from a person I met today new
Posted by: KidRaw ()
Date: August 01, 2012 09:29AM


Trive Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That may be true for him, but to generalize that
> to all people is goes way too far.
>
> I mean...
> Some people find meaning and fulfillment
> gardening. Others find it helping make the world
> a better place. Some find it in relationships or
> raising a family. Etc. Etc. Etc.
>
> Who's to say what is the ONLY real and meaningful
> life?
>
> I like being able to search and find out what that
> is for myself.

Yes, I also agree with Trive.

Sorry for so many posts - too bad we can't edit for as long as we like - but this subject I have strong feelings about, it seems.

I also think that it's a choice. And I wouldn't agree with this choice for myself if it would mean that I didn't have financial security in my 'old age'. Maybe this guy has a nice nest egg so he can now afford to give up the corporate world, but for another person, if you work and don't like working, so you decide to quit and go live in the mountains, but you're broke and end up living off the government or on the street...I don't agree with that 'choice'.

A lot of people would rather bust their a** at a regular job (even with a dreaded 'corporation' of which we should be appreciative of because they provide jobs) and save for retirement for forty years and then live in security in their comfortable home in the mountains for the next thirty years (that would be me), rather than the insecurity of living in the mountains when you're young and able-bodied, and not worry about what's going to happen to you when you're old and broke.

The Ant and the Grasshopper.

I disagree with the guy you met, Alan, who said "The only meaningful life you can have is in the arts".

Not to mention that if a person wants to have a family - kids - it may be difficult to provide for them if he will only consider making a living 'in the arts'. And I don't believe in Government Subsidizing "The Arts".

Choices, nothing's black or white. Pros and cons.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2012 09:35AM by KidRaw.


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Re: quote from a person I met today new
Posted by: eaglefly ()
Date: August 01, 2012 10:55AM


I know I have found most of my meaning through the arts for sure!
I have done many paintings and sold them.
Built props from tv shows,along with many pieces of furniture.
I play the drums.
And even bodybuild.....the ultimate sculpture is the human body.

I have nothing to do with the corporate world out there.
I would find no satasfaction with that.

Vinny


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Re: quote from a person I met today new
Posted by: Tamukha ()
Date: August 01, 2012 11:05AM


KidRaw,

Why must every thread turn into an ideological freak-out?

I assumed--wrongly--that everyone would interpret my use of "corporate world" to refer to the private sector system that presently exists in this country(and elsewhere in the West), not an ideal, and which the erstwhile musician in back2eden's op comes from. I assumed--wrongly--that everyone would understand that I was suggesting that someone with self-awareness and an artistic bent would not find life in that system fundamentally fulfilling.

Thanks, though, for the full Friedman treatment. I went to college and know all that stuff, LOL!


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Re: quote from a person I met today new
Posted by: RawBliss ()
Date: August 01, 2012 11:23AM


I ran across this quote the other day - and tho I agree living artistically & soulfully is different for each person I wouldn't want to live on a planet w/o the beauty of the arts:

During the Second World War, Winston Churchill’s finance minister said Britain should cut arts funding to support the war effort.

Churchill’s response: “Then what are we fighting for?”


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Re: quote from a person I met today new
Posted by: chat ()
Date: August 01, 2012 02:14PM


I'm with LV, you can get everything which is worth doing to the level of art. Especially law lol

>Banana ice-cream rocks!<


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Re: quote from a person I met today new
Posted by: KidRaw ()
Date: August 01, 2012 02:17PM


Tamukha,

You are the one who first spouted political ideology and rhetoric when you said -

"The corporate world is fundamentally destructive."

Tamuka, You are right on the money, All one has to do is open his or her eyes,
The destructive corporate world has killed many of my friends for stinking $$$$

"The corporate world is fundamentally destructive."

Tamukha, I think you will find many veterans of the corp wars that will agree with you on that note, Jeferson said there is no place in a democracy for corps.

I think that person is still "shopping" for a place, thinking that the place will change his life. Many places do suck and smell dead. What matters is what you are looking for. Probably what he is looking for are feelings and he realized that corporations are the last place on the planet for that.

You can find many things doing nothing.

back2eden Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Today I met a person who is checking out this area
> to move to. He was a very high paid corporate
> lawyer who got sick of the system and checked out.
> He's now trying to make it as a musician. He said
> that the only real and meaningful life anyone can
> have is in the arts. I can relate to that but
> don't know if its totally true. Any comments?

Panchito Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Probably what
> he is looking for are feelings and he realized
> that corporations are the last place on the planet
> for that.

You're right - if you want 'feelings' you go to Hollywood and watch Reality Shows and visit Mental Hospitals and see Counselors in public schools who give all the kids drugs, and go on Facebook. If you're looking for 'brain power' and a job, and an engine to run the economy of a prosperous country, you go to corporations.

[www.redstate.com]

Without the jobs and prosperity corporations provide, you wouldn't have the wherewithal to pursue The Arts.

Again - to clarify - Corporatism and Crony Capitalism is "bad", but Corporations in and of themselves, are good.

[dailybail.com]

[www.ontheissues.org]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2012 07:44PM by KidRaw.

KidRaw,

There is a difference between mentioning that today's corporate world is not creative but destructive--i.e. Vulture Capitalism--and someone might find this unsatisfying, and your response, which veers clearly into violation-of-rules territory and goes on and on in that direction before it gets to a response to the OP.

What I wrote is not really controversial and is the thesis statement of my reply and thus necessary to my reply: The world this man left was, if it was typical, inherently destructive and thus unfulfillling to him, so maybe he finds music more gratifying because it's creative. I am just speculating, as everyone answering is, but it would be difficult to argue, based on what the OP said, why someone would leave the corporate world and move out to rural Idaho and take up music as a career if all was hunkey dorey with his previous professional life.

Your response was mostly about economics, in a way that is not a necessary preamble to your consideration that one can find a meaningful life in raising a family.

It is amazing to me that the one phrase:

Quote

The corporate world is fundamentally destructive, especially these days

requires a Shock and Awe response. I mean, I am not attacking you or anyone else here, so it is excessive to go all Econ 101 on us. That said, I am not the determiner of Elements of Style, and you can write paragraphs of ancillary stuff if you want. Me, I don't want to further break the rules of this forum, especially as I have sufficiently explained the meaning of my one-paragraph original response and no one else finds it puzzling or cause to panic, so that's all I have to say.

KidRaw Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> if you want 'feelings' you go to
> Hollywood and watch Reality Shows and visit Mental
> Hospitals and see Counselors in public schools who
> give all the kids drugs, and go on Facebook


good luck

Tamukha Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> KidRaw,
>
your response,
> which veers clearly into violation-of-rules
> territory

No, Tamukha, YOU "veered into violation-of-the-rules territory" first when you said , "the corporate world is fundamentally destructive", because that's political, partisan rhetoric, so don't blame it on me. And your statement is untrue, so I was trying to post the truth that 'corporations' are not 'evil', which one side says.

Tamukha wrote:
---------------------

> What I wrote is not really controversial.

Yes, what you said "the corporate world is fundamentally destructive" is certainly controversial.

And I'm still waiting for your sources which prove that 'the corporate world is fundamentally destructive".

Yikes!!!

Surprise, surprise, another constroversial thread, Vinnie

Oh, puhleeze! There's no need for so many discussions to turn contentious.

I'm seeing an argumentative trend that I don't like and if that's the way it's going to be around here, I'll opt out until conversations get normal again.


My favorite raw vegan

Maybe we should all cool off by focusing on the Olympics for a moment...

Trive Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh, puhleeze! There's no need for so many
> discussions to turn contentious.
>
> I'm seeing an argumentative trend that I don't
> like and if that's the way it's going to be around
> here, I'll opt out until conversations get normal
> again.


IMO there is nothing wrong with defending your views and your posts which express your views. It's called a "debate" and a public forum is the most appropriate setting for it. And so provided a debate is in confines of the set topic, there is nothing "abnormal" to it but quite the contrary.

>Banana ice-cream rocks!<



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/02/2012 04:47AM by chat.

.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/02/2012 06:45AM by Trive.

Assuming I'm the 'bad guy' for refuting the 'conventional wisdom' that "corporations are evil", which Tamukha spouted, I agree with Chat - this is a debate.

Alan had said "Any comments", meaning we are free to give our opinion.

Veganjuice - I think there should be laws, rules and regulations as to how short and tight Olympic clothes can be.





Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/02/2012 12:15PM by KidRaw.

Aristotle understood what’s going on when he said, “All paid employments absorb and degrade the mind.” It’s all a form of Slavery and it’s all because we have the Wrong Mentality and that’s because most of us are Dis-Connected or most of us have a very Weak Connection to everything around us and that’s because most of us are Eating Cooked Food. I’m sure that most people will not understand what this really means and will want to argue with me, but that’s because most people don’t have enough Pieces to the Puzzle.

I’ve been thinking about these things 24/7 for the last 22 years and if any of y’all want to challenge me, BRING IT ON!!! I’ve identified 208 of the most important Pieces of the Puzzle and have been able to Logically Connect all of them together in a 3 Box System with Pluses & Minuses.

For now, let’s take a look at what others have to say about Money. In Zeitgeist Addendum, their Solution is a Resource Based Economy and in the Thrive Documentary, their Solution is to simply get rid of the Corrupt Money. In a way, they are both Right, but they are also both Wrong.

Yes, we ultimately want a Resource Based Economy, but that’s on our To Get List and Not on our To Do List, which is a Common Mistake a lot of people make. And if we ever get around to doing what we’re supposed to do so we can Change our Mentality and Return to a Gift Mentality, we still can’t Change everything overnight, so we do have to do Damage Control and at least get rid of the Corrupt Money.

All of this reminds me of a book my Emerson and actually explains this whole idea of having a Strong Connection to everything around us. To explain this further, here is another old post of mine - look for "abolitionist":

[www.rawfoodsupport.com]
Re: Who do you think is the healthiest looking raw fooder?
Author: John Rose (---.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net)
Date: 03-03-05 19:43

I like what it says in "A Course In Miracles" about sharing physical possessions and ideas..."If we share a physical possession, you do divide its ownership. If you share an idea, however, you do not lessen it. All of it is still yours although all of it has been given away. Further, if the one to whom you give it accepts it as his, he reinforces it in your mind and thus increases it. ...Thoughts increase by being given away. The more who believe in them the stronger they become."

I also agree with Aristotle when he said that, "All paid employments absorb and degrade the mind." Indeed, it is a shame that money is our god in this country and is used as a barometer for success. If we never ate cooked food, I am convinced that our values would not be so screwed up. This reminds me of an interesting story...I was at a friend's house about seven years ago and a book about Emerson jumped off the shelf at me, as do a lot of books. The very first words that I read on the very first page that I opened was, "...and food that fire had polluted." Of course, I got real excited because I knew what this meant, but I never thought of expressing it in this way before.

It turned out that the page I turned to was the beginning of a chapter called The Reformers. Basically, Emerson put the word out to the public for everyone who thought that they had an answer to solve our problems to come to his house and they would all discuss who had the best answer. Emerson made many references in this chapter to this guy named Alcott. Emerson never said who he was nor did he give his full name, but I recognized this name from my studies of Natural Hygiene. William A. Alcott, M.D. was one of the early founders of the Natural Hygiene movement.

Emerson mentioned that Alcott went to England to try to enlighten the Britons only to find the same problem that any raw foodist has trying to convince anyone to give up their favorite foods. According to Alcott, "...the spirit of England was hostile to human welfare, and her institutions were adverse to the largest liberty of the soul." In American, Alcott wrote, "is that second Eden to be planted, in which the divine seed is to bruise the head of evil and restore man to his rightful communion with God."

Emerson goes on to say that he tried this way of life and agreed of its benefits, "but the servants refused to leave the kitchen, and Mrs. Alcott declined to share in a second venture;..." And then there's my favorite about those who objected to a simple vegetarian diet, "The fat and ruddy eater who had just wiped his lips from feeding on a sirloin, whose blood was spouting in his veins and whose strength kindled that evil fire in his eye. It was not the voice of man one heard, but beef and brandy roaring for beef and brandy."

I've shared this story here before but there was another part of this chapter that I have not shared. There was also a group of people who called themselves " abolitionist" but they were not there to abolish slavery...they wanted to abolish money. Everyone argued and argued until everyone finally agreed that if we were to abolish money, we could solve most of our problems. They didn't go into any details but it's not hard to imagine what would happen if money no longer existed. We would stop competing with one another and we would finally learn how to cooperate with one another.

To illustrate how screwed up we are as a society...the more money I charge for my services, the harder my students work for me...I guess they want to get their money's worth. My goal in life is to become the wealthiest man in the world and then for money to become worthless. If I achieve this goal, everyone will know about raw food and money will no longer be our #1 value.

Peace and Love.....................John
[www.rawfoodsupport.com]

Here’s one more thing I came across lately that I hope some of y’all will enjoy…

Excerpted from “Apaches, A History and Culture Portrait” by James L. Haley”:

It was probably just as well, for the Mescaleros found little at Bosque Redondo to fan a desire to be educated in the pindah schools, anyway. During repartee with John Cremony on the subject, the ordinarily agreeable chief Cadette silenced him with what Cremony backhandedly conceded was an irrefutable argument:

“You say that because you learned from books, you can build all those big houses and talk with each other at any distance, and do many wonderful things. Now, let me tell you what we think. You begin when you are little to work hard, and work until you are men in order to begin fresh work. You say that you work hard in order to learn to work well. After you get to be men, then you say, the labor of life commences; then you build the houses, and ships, and towns and everything. Then, after you have got them all, you die and leave them behind. Now, we call that slavery. You are slaves from the time you begin to talk until you die; but we are as free as air. We never work, but the Mexicans and others work for us. Our wants are few and easily supplied. The river, the wood and plain yield all that we require, and we will not be slaves; nor will we send our children to your schools, where they only learn to become like yourselves.”

Peace and Love..........John





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/02/2012 12:30PM by John Rose.

Hey John, interesting post.

MAny people are not aware that they are part of the masses. The masses started with the birth of the middle class. Before the industrial revolution people had a job depending more or less on their birth. But afterwards, people were born "blank" meaning that they had to "make" themselves. So people become someone by climbing in society. All they sought was an identity. Some people try to have a smart image. They go to schools and get phds. All they sought was recognition, to become someone. Some goes with businesses and corporations climbing the ladder and creating definitions of good-bad. They want to be someone because they were born being nobody. It is all mental and the created definitions are mental, only concepts that started from wanting to be something.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/02/2012 01:27PM by Panchito.

I just love those GIF images!