Maybe. It looks like college grads are squeezing the uneducated out of service-oriented jobs. Robots will soon replace all humans in those jobs. Crazy world!

[economix.blogs.nytimes.com]

You still haven't revealed what you do for a living, HH. With your extensive edumacation, I am prepared to be very impressed...

I read or heard someplace or other than the kids who went to Community Colleges are faring the best, but I heard on our local news that community colleges are hurting for money. My daughter just completed her senior year of high school through dual enrollment at the local community college so that she gets college credit for three core courses.

Oh, I'm sorry, did you demand, Gestapo style, that I hand over my credentials in one of those threads I got bored with? You diversity police can get pretty mean and pushy. What expensive education? You mean my two advanced degrees that were paid through grad asst. stipends and tuition waivers? I worked at an investment firm during my undergrad and got plenty of help from my parents too. I'm an organic farmer. How many times have I said that in these forums? In the off-season I'm a stay at home cat-dad and in-house gigolo/bed-warmer. Before becoming a crucial member of society, I spent 15 years as a college professor. During those years, I also worked for the federal govt., traveling to the 3rd world and mentally "preparing" the child-like natives to be colonized by America. Yes, I'm a reformed scumbag, but I sure have lived life.

By the way, the place I'm currently at only contains white people. I'm a horrible person, aren't I?


banana who Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You still haven't revealed what you do for a
> living, HH. With your extensive edumacation, I am
> prepared to be very impressed...

Here's the fact I was referring to - that 10% more kids with Associate's Degrees are getting jobs than those with Bachelor's Degrees --

832,000 for Associate's, 787,000 for Bachelor's.

Are Community Colleges Key to the American Dream?

[www.bloomberg.com]

Are Bachelor's Degrees Worth It?

WSJ.com [online.wsj.com]

"With unemployment among college graduates at historic highs and outstanding student-loan debt at $1 trillion, the question families should be asking is whether it's worth borrowing tens of thousands of dollars for a degree from Podunk U. if it's just a ticket to a barista's job at Starbucks. When it comes to calculating the return on your investment, where you go to school does matter to your bank account later in life.

Not surprisingly, research has found that a degree from a name-brand elite college, whether it's Harvard, Stanford or Amherst, carries a premium for earnings. But the 50 wealthiest and most selective colleges and universities in the U.S. enroll less than 4% of students. For everyone else, the statistics show that choosing just any college, at any cost for a credential, may no longer be worth it.

Think a community-college degree is worth less than a credential from a four-year college? In Tennessee, the average first-year salaries of graduates with a two-year degree are $1,000 higher than those with a bachelor's degree. Technical degree holders from the state's community colleges often earn more their first year out than those who studied the same field at a four-year university.

Take graduates in health professions from Dyersburg State Community College. They not only finish two years earlier than their counterparts at the University of Tennessee at Knoxville, but they also earn $5,300 more, on average, in their first year after graduation.

In Virginia, graduates with technical degrees from community colleges make $20,000 more in the first year after college than do graduates in several fields who get bachelor's degrees."

**************

About funding for Community Colleges -

Spending Money to Make Money

[www.insidehighered.com]

"Economic value. The main reason community colleges will remain viable educational options for many years to come is that our institutions are such a great value. In my state, tuition and fees for a full-time student at a two-year college are about a third of what students pay at one of the state's large research institutions, and about half of what they pay at the smaller, regional universities. Many of our students also live at home, which reduces their expenses even more.

Pair that kind of savings in a difficult economy with the fact that students can transfer their credits directly to a university, and it's easy to see why two-year colleges are now enrolling many students who, a decade ago, might have gone off to a regional or even flagship university."

Science rules in the modern age. We're moving away from the philosophical mind. The sort of practical education provided by a community college will certainly be in greater demand. Besides, it's no secret that people who read literature, philosophy, etc. tend to become rebellious. That's obviously not allowed these days. The more people who only study dental hygiene and engage culture like sports and Two and a Half Men the better it is for our master's.

"...the better it is for our master's?" Shouldn't it be either 'master' or 'masters,' Professor Hands?

And for the record, I loved going back to college! I had wonderful professors in undergrad, both at community college and university. However, I found grad school to be an absolute bore on steroids. Learn. to. deal.

I had no idea you were an organic farmer. I tend to read most threads and never saw that. That sounds awesome. I just wonder why you seem so irascible...

If you found it to be boring, that's fine. Calling it a waste of time is what's ludicrous.

Yes, I'm an organic farmer. I mentioned it quite a few times on the raw vegan board. There seems to be very little interest in food production in the raw vegan community. It takes a certain type of bad ass to grow food. Very few people qualify.

I'm irascible? I guess. IMO, you get from me what you passive-aggressively give. Maybe it's time to take stock of the way you treat people and what you do to elicit certain reactions from them. Seriously, who cares? I'm tired.


banana who Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And for the record, I loved going back to college!
> I had wonderful professors in undergrad, both at
> community college and university. However, I found
> grad school to be an absolute bore on steroids.
> Learn. to. deal.
>
> I had no idea you were an organic farmer. I tend
> to read most threads and never saw that. That
> sounds awesome. I just wonder why you seem so
> irascible...

Cool that you're an organic farmer; We tried a few years to grow vegs. w/ very little success, except for greens - they grew great. I live in a valley & we only get a half days worth of sunlight compared to the folks that live on top of the hill.

We are so surrounded by trees that we don't get any good growing light until at least 10 am or so, & then it starts to diminish by maybe 3 pm...

They good thing is we're in a "storm protected" valley, so we hardly ever get hit by any bad storms, they seem to go around us.

I can grow sprouts inside, though!

universities induce a phychological framing effect. They help get a job but this also makes you as a cog in the stablished social system. Your actions/expectations are then determined by the system. For example, you may feel like you deserve more because of your qualifications or grades and because you spent all that money in school. Schools are a businnes and a lot is based on hype by giving you special training with a high dose of filler training to cover all the length of the semesters. At the end, once you got the paper, you may think you are better but you have dag yourself deeper in the expectations of the system.

The real university starts in your own body and in abandoning all the external noise of the cortex. You have to detoxify/disconnect your own brain from the system. When you look at the other people you see then as if they are lost and wasting their time/energy doing the induced things of the system. They bounce like in a pinball machine playinmg the social role. They become angry, sick, etc. They belive in the system, the stablished medical hospitals, etc.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/08/2013 08:59AM by Panchito.

I don't think I'm better. When I was in college I saw myself as part of a community of people who possessed similar interests. That was nice for me. It was a time when I didn't feel lonely on the inside for once.

I don't expect anything. I live in one of the poorest neighborhoods in Pittsburgh. I'm like a white marshmallow floating in a steaming cup of hot chocolate. My significant other lives here with me. She's a successful corporate accountant. We don't need to live here but we do because we know that living in an affluent 'hood isn't the key to happiness. It needs to come from within. A job is just something that I do. Do I hope that it pays enough to pay the bills and maybe a bit more? Of course, who wouldn't?

I don't understand the college experiences of other people. When I was in college I studied some wild stuff of the variety that gets discussed in alternative health forums. If it weren't for college I never would have been a vegan. My favorite professor taught courses in alternative spirituality. He often spoke of his experiences with Ayahuasca and encouraged us to give it a try. In one way or another every paper I wrote discussed the corruption of our current system and ways to bring it down. This was fully encouraged. I also loved studying language and literature and art and biology and on and on...It was beautiful. While I did this I was surrounded by all of these intelligent, luscious women. Oh no. What pain. <-----My sarcasm is indicative of an unpeaceful aspect of my spirit.

At a certain point I came to understand that this world contains good, evil, and everything in between. I have this feeling that that's what we're here to experience...all of it. People who shelter themselves from the various experiences, always looking for Shangri-La, are not at one of the higher states of consciousness. They're getting there, but it's only those who are really on their way who can find beauty and peace in the midst of everything. I'm certainly not all the way there yet.

I highly recommend "Transcending the Level of Consciousness" by David Hawkins. Even if you disagree with his reincarnation-based spirituality he creates an interesting framework in which to view the growth of our consciousness and where we should aspire to be. It's like motivational self-help for those looking to get closer to our true third eye.

I agree with you. All I've been trying to say here is that college is simply an experience. It can be beautiful or ugly depending on one's state of consciouness. People on a higher level can look past the brainwashing, not be effectd by it, and see what's beautiful. In a more practical sense, it's indisputable that a college education helps most people to make more money and to possibly do work that's more fulfilling. My significant other LOVES her work. I have no idea how she can stand it, but for some reason she truly enjoys crunching numbers for some of the largest businesses in he world. She also gets a big kick out of living a double life where she's a big yuppie in the day and a hippie earth mama at night and on the weekends. Maybe it's because we have to understand the dark in order to understand the light? I don't know.


Panchito Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> universities induce a phychological framing
> effect. They help get a job but this also makes
> you as a cog in the stablished social system. Your
> actions/expectations are then determined by the
> system. For example, you may feel like you deserve
> more because of your qualifications or grades and
> because you spent all that money in school.
> Schools are a businnes and a lot is based on hype
> by giving you special training with a high dose of
> filler training to cover all the length of the
> semesters. At the end, once you got the paper, you
> may think you are better but you have dag yourself
> deeper in the expectations of the system.
>
> The real university starts in your own body and in
> abandoning all the external noise of the cortex.
> You have to detoxify/disconnect your own brain
> from the system. When you look at the other people
> you see then as if they are lost and wasting their
> time/energy doing the induced things of the
> system. They bounce like in a pinball machine
> playinmg the social role. They become angry, sick,
> etc. They belive in the system, the stablished
> medical hospitals, etc.

Having a sun-splashed piece of land is very nice. I'm fortunate. A friend owns a 400 acre farm. She doesn't live there most of the year. She's incredibly generous and lets me farm as much as I want. Right now I'm only working a few acres and learning as I go. My goal is to someday move my business onto an urban farm. If you really want to make your land work for you, I'd recommend studying as many alternative techniques as possible, learn what grows best under your conditions, etc. It might not be the ideal crop for you but you could provide the community with some crucial ingredients if that's something you're interested in doing. In Pittsburgh we have soup-kitchens with lines that go around the block. It's like pictures from the Great Depression. I donate some surplus to them.

I grow sprouts indoors too! I got interested in farming when I grew marijuana under lights. There are some businesses emerging where they grow herbs in warehouses with lights. Unfortunately, I think that most of them are struggling because it requires so much electricity.

veganjuice Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cool that you're an organic farmer; We tried a few
> years to grow vegs. w/ very little success, except
> for greens - they grew great. I live in a valley &
> we only get a half days worth of sunlight compared
> to the folks that live on top of the hill.
>
> We are so surrounded by trees that we don't get
> any good growing light until at least 10 am or so,
> & then it starts to diminish by maybe 3 pm...
>
> They good thing is we're in a "storm protected"
> valley, so we hardly ever get hit by any bad
> storms, they seem to go around us.
>
> I can grow sprouts inside, though!

Something that is boring is a waste of time. I also think that research is a huge crock anyhow. I can't believe that people think they can arrive at truth by observing things with the five senses. Whatever can be determined by this method is puny compared to the greater Reality.

I am a straight-forward person. I have never hemmed and hawed or otherwise conducted myself passive-aggressively. Methinks you are projecting. You are the one on the warpath because someone has an opinion which offends you. You sound like you have a great life. I would think you'd be more mellow. Namaste.

Oh gawd. Either show us the way or quit with the phony new age "greater Reality" line. You're so much better than everyone else. So in tune with the world beyond the senses. All right. Tell us how to get there. I would love to know.


banana who Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Something that is boring is a waste of time. I
> also think that research is a huge crock anyhow. I
> can't believe that people think they can arrive at
> truth by observing things with the five senses.
> Whatever can be determined by this method is puny
> compared to the greater Reality.
>
> I am a straight-forward person. I have never
> hemmed and hawed or otherwise conducted myself
> passive-aggressively. Methinks you are projecting.
> You are the one on the warpath because someone has
> an opinion which offends you. You sound like you
> have a great life. I would think you'd be more
> mellow. Namaste.

some people get sucked in, sign for loans, and become a deep cog. If there is no loan then it is all good

HH Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't understand the college experiences of
> other people. When I was in college I studied some
> wild stuff of the variety that gets discussed in
> alternative health forums. If it weren't for
> college I never would have been a vegan. My
> favorite professor taught courses in alternative
> spirituality. He often spoke of his experiences
> with Ayahuasca and encouraged us to give it a try.
> In one way or another every paper I wrote
> discussed the corruption of our current system and
> ways to bring it down. This was fully encouraged.
> I also loved studying language and literature and
> art and biology and on and on...It was beautiful.
> While I did this I was surrounded by all of these
> intelligent, luscious women. Oh no. What pain.
> <-----My sarcasm is indicative of an unpeaceful
> aspect of my spirit.

"some people get sucked in, sign for loans, and become a deep cog. If there is no loan then it is all good "

LOL - My bank is hammering me to get a high limit credit card for my business;

"It will show you are a favorable credit risk to other companies, thus enabling you to get lower rates on insurance, health premiums, etc."

I told them I'm thinking of changing banks...they backed off real quick.

Free will. No one forces anyone to do that. If you're going to pay for tuition, room, board, transport entirely with loans, you better be going into a lucrative field with a lot of job openings. They know full well going in whether or not those loans that they pursue are realistic or not. I still advocate a student loan bailout.

Panchito Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> some people get sucked in, sign for loans, and
> become a deep cog. If there is no loan then it is
> all good
>
> HH Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I don't understand the college experiences of
> > other people. When I was in college I studied
> some
> > wild stuff of the variety that gets discussed
> in
> > alternative health forums. If it weren't for
> > college I never would have been a vegan. My
> > favorite professor taught courses in
> alternative
> > spirituality. He often spoke of his experiences
> > with Ayahuasca and encouraged us to give it a
> try.
> > In one way or another every paper I wrote
> > discussed the corruption of our current system
> and
> > ways to bring it down. This was fully
> encouraged.
> > I also loved studying language and literature
> and
> > art and biology and on and on...It was
> beautiful.
> > While I did this I was surrounded by all of
> these
> > intelligent, luscious women. Oh no. What pain.
> > <-----My sarcasm is indicative of an unpeaceful
> > aspect of my spirit.

HH Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I still advocate a student loan bailout.

I sure don't, even though one of my daughters is still paying back her loan after 10 years, so it would be handy.

Just like I don't advocate bailing out homeowners or businesses or banks or anybody for anything. People make their choices in life - some choose to spend money they don't have on stuff they can't afford, (or pay a fortune to go to a fancy expensive college, and party the whole time) others are frugal and smart with their money (and go to a community college or in-state and work their way through). Why should those who live within their means bail out the spendthrifts.

KidRaw Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HH Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > I still advocate a student loan bailout.
>
> I sure don't, even though one of my daughters is
> still paying back her loan after 10 years, so it
> would be handy.
>
> Just like I don't advocate bailing out homeowners
> or businesses or banks or anybody for anything.
> People make their choices in life - some choose to
> spend money they don't have on stuff they can't
> afford, (or pay a fortune to go to a fancy
> expensive college, and party the whole time)
> others are frugal and smart with their money (and
> go to a community college or in-state and work
> their way through). Why should those who live
> within their means bail out the spendthrifts.

So in your world, everyone has perfect decision-making capabilities. Well, God forbid someone makes a MISTAKE. I don't consider going back to college a mistake at all. I took one community college course on World Religion, was hooked, and continued taking all sorts of courses there. I paid for some, received Pell grants for others, I worked the whole time. I was in my 30s and doing it for a lark. However, working in a health food store was not paying much and the management was less than desirable, so I quit, went to school full-time, got other jobs later, and decided to transfer to a 4-year school. At the new school, the tuition was TRIPLE the community college and still incredibly low. The staff ended up going on strike my first term because of it. Not only has the tuition at least doubled there, but the loan percentage when I first got there in 2004 was under 3% and suddenly went up to as much as 6.8%! So to suggest that it's this stable situation is a joke. It's like health care--it is an inflated cost and this cost needs to be dealt with.

The truth is that since the banks got bailed out, the students should be given a jubilee and have their loans forgiven. We really need to stop with the judgements about the decisions others make because it's not that cut-and-dried. I don't consider myself a spendthrift. I never have possessed a credit card and I am almost 50 but I ended up getting student loans. Having compassion for other people is important because you never know what the future holds. I am serious. As we see with Cypress banks, if you don't physically possess your money, what is stopping the banks from freezing your accounts?

I used the smiley face to indicate sarcasm. I don't advocate any bailouts.


KidRaw Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HH Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > I still advocate a student loan bailout.
>
> I sure don't, even though one of my daughters is
> still paying back her loan after 10 years, so it
> would be handy.
>
> Just like I don't advocate bailing out homeowners
> or businesses or banks or anybody for anything.
> People make their choices in life - some choose to
> spend money they don't have on stuff they can't
> afford, (or pay a fortune to go to a fancy
> expensive college, and party the whole time)
> others are frugal and smart with their money (and
> go to a community college or in-state and work
> their way through). Why should those who live
> within their means bail out the spendthrifts.

I don't believe in social Darwinism. God made the world for EVERYONE, not just the most driven, brilliant, talented, beautiful, charismatic, cunning, greedy, and unethical. People who don't handle money well still deserve to breathe the air of Maya.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/09/2013 12:55AM by banana who.

HH Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I used the smiley face to indicate sarcasm. I
> don't advocate any bailouts.


Knowing you, I kinda figured you were being facetious.

Banana who, you're worked hard and done well and I'm not saying there aren't those who did it the old-fashioned way, but I still don't believe in redistribution of wealth and bailouts by the taxpayers.

Yes, people who don't handle money well deserve to breathe the air of Maya, but they don't deserve to have the government take money from someone else by force and give it to them.

I agree the cost of college is out of control - we're in a tuition bubble, but that's because the government keeps making more money available, so the colleges keep charging more tuition to get that government money. It's a vicious cycle. Just because we bailed out the banks and mortgages and the unions (stimulus) and the car companies unions, doesn't mean we have to bail out everybody and everything.

Yeah, it's like healthcare - and we're seeing how the government is handling that so great - they took over the Health Insurance industry, are redistribution wealth from the middle working class to the 'poor', and they're killing the health care industry and it's costing us and the USA a fortune and will probably ruin the country - that and amnesty.

***********

BTW, thanks for sharing your stories, banana who and HH. I wish I was as articulate, as good a writer and intellectual as you guys are.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/09/2013 01:31AM by KidRaw.

We started going broke with these wars. Stop the wars, stop giving the private contractors all that moola, do as Dr. Paul suggests and close military bases around the world, and invest in this country. If infrastructure is built, E-Verify the builders! Take abandoned factories in Chicago and start making stuff again.

Thanks that's really nice but I don't think you should sell yourself short!

KidRaw Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HH Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I used the smiley face to indicate sarcasm. I
> > don't advocate any bailouts.
>
>
> Knowing you, I kinda figured you were being
> facetious.
>
> Banana who, you're worked hard and done well and
> I'm not saying there aren't those who did it the
> old-fashioned way, but I still don't believe in
> redistribution of wealth and bailouts by the
> taxpayers.
>
> Yes, people who don't handle money well deserve to
> breathe the air of Maya, but they don't deserve to
> have the government take money from someone else
> by force and give it to them.
>
> I agree the cost of college is out of control -
> we're in a tuition bubble, but that's because the
> government keeps making more money available, so
> the colleges keep charging more tuition to get
> that government money. It's a vicious cycle. Just
> because we bailed out the banks and mortgages and
> the unions (stimulus) and the car companies
> unions, doesn't mean we have to bail out everybody
> and everything.
>
> Yeah, it's like healthcare - and we're seeing how
> the government is handling that so great - they
> took over the Health Insurance industry, are
> redistribution wealth from the middle working
> class to the 'poor', and they're killing the
> health care industry and it's costing us and the
> USA a fortune and will probably ruin the country -
> that and amnesty.
>
> ***********
>
> BTW, thanks for sharing your stories, banana who
> and HH. I wish I was as articulate, as good a
> writer and intellectual as you guys are.

HH Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks that's really nice but I don't think you
> should sell yourself short!

Now how did you know that I'm short

banana who Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We started going broke with these wars. Stop the
> wars, stop giving the private contractors all that
> moola, do as Dr. Paul suggests and close military
> bases around the world, and invest in this
> country. If infrastructure is built, E-Verify the
> builders! Take abandoned factories in Chicago and
> start making stuff again.


I agree with that! And while they're at it, they can take all the graft and duplication out the government.

Kid Raw, I was listening to Thom Hartmann the other day and he was talking about healthcare issues. He said something happened during Reagan's era that changed the cost of health care (in other words, increased it). The drug prices are an example of this. Why is Canada selling medication so much cheaper than we do? A caller mentioned Mexico and how the price of quality surgeries are great and the meds are over the counter and much cheaper, too!

It drives me batty when I hear talk about lowering the loan rates as some great solution to high education costs! If the PRODUCT is of an inflated price, then what's that going to solve?

(BTW, I agree with HH about you... )

"Everyone receives two kinds of education: the one given him by someone else, and the other, far more important, which he gives himself." -Edmond Bordeaux Szekely

“A knowledge of habits and their influences is of far more value than any amount of knowledge of physics, chemistry, pharmacology and materia medica.” -Herbert Shelton

“Learning and wanting to learn are inseparable. You learn best when you believe what you are trying to learn is of value to you.” -“A Course In Miracles” p. 66

Peace and Love..........John

That's reminds me of Waldorf School - where my girls graduated 8th grade - they create a love of learning -

[www.whywaldorfworks.org]

Teachers in Waldorf schools are dedicated to generating an inner enthusiasm for learning within every child. They achieve this in a variety of ways. Even seemingly dry and academic subjects are presented in a pictorial and dynamic manner. This eliminates the need for competitive testing, academic placement, and behavioristic rewards to motivate learning. It allows motivation to arise from within and helps engender the capacity for joyful lifelong learning.

banana who - you would make a great Waldorf Teacher!