rawnoggin said:

"I don't see the problem in tracking down health according to race/location etc. I know veganism/fruitarianism is getting more coverage, but we can't expect a community to suddenly go raw without the necessary support. Without the internet, I'd probably still be thinking that an incinerated veg casserole was great for my health."

This paragraph caught my eye, and I would like to echo your sentiments, especially this sentence: "... we can't expect a community to suddenly go raw without the necessary support." Thanks! Also, thanks for mentioning your experience with the internet, because that is a topic I've briefly discussed as well.

"As I said, I am focusing on race not as a "thing" which is inherently part of human beings, but as a social construction which has historically been employed in the racist society of the US to privilege and disadvantage different racial groups. "

Can you edit this into smaller sentences? I can't wrap my brain around it and I read it 3 times. I don't want to misunderstand you, but you have really long sentances. :s

xxpeisi

I wish to get off topic a little bit. When we went raw 10 months ago we found a raw restaurant in Houston. It was (gone now) the only one anywhere around. It was in a community center near downtown in a mostly black part of town. I thought it was interesting. Storm was my intro to raw and then we were the only white folk for miles when we went to eat at the raw diner. It made me curious. I think when I go to the Raw spirit fest I will get a better idea in the diversity of this group. I think it is important to know cultural history so we can repeat what works in communities and stay away from what doesn't.

Peisinoe... hehe... of course! I think that I just get so focused on making my point that maybe the opposite thing happens! Silly me. Let's see...

I am not talking about "inherent" or genetic differences in people based on their skin color. I am instead talking about the CONCEPT of race, which has been around in the USA for a very long time. I call it the "social construction" of race, because it is not based on scientific reality. I feel that the concept of "white supremacy" has economically and socially aided white people in this country for a long time, as well as DISadvantaging many non-white people. I think that the lack of minorities in the raw community may stem from their historical disenfranchisement. For example, it is a simple fact that Black people of the same education as white people earn less money than white people, still today. Also, Black people have historically had MUCH less access to equal education in the first place. I think that, directly or indirectly, these issues may influence the demographics of the raw community. So, in reply to your question about certain races thriving more or less on raw foods, I said that I don't think it has to do with whether or not people can thrive on raw foods, but instead whether people intially become involved in the community in the first place.

I hope that worked, even though it ended up really long!!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2007 06:03PM by ambulancears.

Aha!! I get it now.

But, I still would have to return to the fact that Storm, who is not white, introduced me to the lifestyle- not any white government health program or organisation...

SO I guess, even with all their disadvantages, the black community of USA still have just as much access as a white Canadian-Swede.


xxpeisi

I agree that it's obvious SOME non-white people have just as much access as anybody else. However, I do think that looking at overall demographics would be very helpful, because that would show us just how MANY non-white people have access, as compared to white people. My hypothesis is that minorites overall do not have as much access, although, once again, it's obvious that it is not impossible. I do think that it is slightly dangerous to focus solely on the (small?) amount of minorities with access, because that makes the issue less visible. By looking overall, we could see the broader scope and understand if there is in fact a discrepancy.

(PS I'm Swedish too! Swedes represent! lol)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2007 06:13PM by ambulancears.

Do you live in Sweden?

Nope... I guess I'm European-American, hehe. Half of my family is from Sweden (many generations back) and the other half is from Wales and Germany.

ambulancears Wrote:
For example, I
> have spoken with a few friends who mention the
> viewpoint that perhaps a percentage of Black
> citizens feel less welcomed into "alternative"
> eating communities because of the perception that
> "animal rights" are placed above "human rights,"
> which has been a historical struggle for Black
> people in this country.


that is truly bizarre to me.
you college kids are overthinking. imo

ambulancears Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>If there is a racial
> discrepancy within the raw movement, is it not
> important for those on all "sides" to work in
> understanding why this is so?

frankly, no.
you're going about it backwards it seems to me, but i'm not going to get into this further.

should we take every human activity (sports, recreation, eating habits, hobbies, etc, etc) and analyze the demographics and then formulate a solution to these so called problems?

again, it just seems bizarre and fraught with major problems in scope and focus.
is this whole thing about a masters thesis or something?

>I believe that, just
> as in mainstream culture, it is beneficial for not
> only minorities but for everybody. It makes us
> better people, I believe.

it makes us better people to consider us all as members of the human race
and stop trying to use race to "inform" us of matters which do not require it.

but that's just me.

fresh said: "that is truly bizarre to me.
you college kids are overthinking. imo"

You can never think too much, in my opinion.

It is bizarre to you, I understand. To some people, the concept of eating only raw foods is bizarre. Everything's bizarre to someone, I guess.

I think that in some ways it is a preconceived and uninformed idea, but I do believe that it is definitely a thought encountered by many minds... not just college minds.

Perhaps it has to do with the fact that many human beings in this country are still struggling in greatly disturbing ways - and these people are overwhelmingly non-white in comparison to the overall population, although poor and mistreated people come in EVERY color! It may be reasonable to assume, then, that movements which SEEM ("seem" is a very important word here) to focus on "animal rights" over "human rights" may be dismissed as "having the wrong priorities," in this time when many fellow human beings obviously need the help of their human brothers and sisters.

I personally feel that the raw food movement is very much about "human rights" as it pertains to freeing ourselves from indoctrinated eating habits and caring for our bodies on the highest level. Maybe, though, you can understand why this viewpoint may not be shared by all at first.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2007 11:07PM by ambulancears.

fresh said:

"it makes us better people to consider us all as members of the human race
and stop trying to use race to "inform" us of matters which do not require it."

I agree that, at the deepest level, it makes us better and more HUMAN to look at one another as simply human brothers and sisters. However, I feel that it is possible to understand our shared humanity at the same time as understanding our very DIFFERENT experiences. These experiences do not have to do with who we are, innately, as human beings. They have to do with the social context in which we are formed. I do not feel that I need to make a choice between understanding all human beings as human beings and understanding that the destructive concept of race can not simply be erased and forgotten about, because there are still institutions and thought-procceses in place which covertly perpetuate racism. Until those institutions themselves are dismantled, I will personally refuse to stop talking about race and racism in this country. In my opinion, one way in which those institutions can be dismantled is to examine them closely (hence the overthinking, hehe) and work to transform them from systems of white supremacy to systems of brotherhood/sisterhood/humanity.

"is this whole thing about a masters thesis or something?"

No... I'm an undergrad. I'm seriously just interested. I am very concerned about racism in this country. I am so inspired by the raw food community. Therefore, I am interested in what I see as an intersection between these two things. It is disheartening to me, what I see as an extension of mainstream racism into such an innovative group of human beings, and I would love to examine it further and hopefully one day see it transform.

ambulancears Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>However, I feel
> that it is possible to understand our shared
> humanity at the same time as understanding our
> very DIFFERENT experiences. These experiences do
> not have to do with who we are, innately, as human
> beings. They have to do with the social context in
> which we are formed.

EXACTLY. that is my point.
this would be better examined with respect to the social and economic context.

race is not necessary.

i know you don't agree. ok with me.

like i said, investigate the philosphy of ward connerly, and others, to get another view.


In my opinion, one way in
> which those institutions can be dismantled is to
> examine them closely (hence the overthinking,
> hehe) and work to transform them from systems of
> white supremacy to systems of
> brotherhood/sisterhood/humanity.
Until those
> institutions themselves are dismantled, I will
> personally refuse to stop talking about race and
> racism in this country.

there can be some value in what you say.
but what you propose can also perpetuate it.

fresh said:
"this would be better examined with respect to the social and economic context.

race is not necessary. "

In my opinion, race is social (and economic). Race influences the social and economic positions of a majority of American citizens, in what I consider to be a drastic way, and has for many centuries. In fact, I believe that the concept of race was CREATED as a way to influence and shape the social positions of "white" people vs. "Black" people, etc. Race is innately tied to social issues, I believe.

Once again, this has nothing to do with race as an innate determining factor. This is all about race as a creation, as a construct, as a tool used in creating a white supremacist society.

I really appreciate your suggestions for reading about different perspectives. I have read of and from Connerly previously, but there's always more to read!



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2007 11:45PM by ambulancears.

ambulancears Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> In my opinion, race is social (and economic). Race
> influences the social and economic positions of a
> majority of American citizens, in what I consider
> to be a drastic way, and has for many centuries.
> In fact, I believe that the concept of race was
> CREATED as a way to influence and shape the social
> positions of "white" people vs. "Black" people,
> etc. Race is innately tied to social issues, I
> believe.
>
> Once again, this has nothing to do with race as an
> innate determining factor. This is all about race
> as a creation, as a construct, as a tool used in
> creating a white supremacist society.

kelsey,

it sounds a little better when you phrase it that way.

i commend you on your equanimity

adios

Kelsey:

In all my years lurking then participating on this board and other raw food forums, race has never been a theme nor an issue. Yes, every so often someone would start a thread regarding getting to know a little about other posters, such as gender, age, occupation, what part of the country and/or globe the posters are from, even threads on how much others spend on food, which provided an interesting look into other's habits. Interestingly, no one ever asked what were the races of the other posters and neither were these mentioned.

If in fact race was considered to be that big a problem among raw fooders, by now it would have been debated with polarizing perspectives from indiffence to extreme viewpoints expressed. Instead, topics such as B12 intake; fruitarianism vs greens vs fruits and greens; Gabriel Cousen's vs Doug Graham's vs Natural Hygiene approach have recurred over the years--not racial discrepancies nor of any minority group's interest in or access to raw.

When I replied to your original inquiry earlier in this post, I recommended that you take a look at the US population in general to start looking for answers. There was a reason behind that and I was hoping that you would have picked up on it, but I have a feeling you didn't. In any event, here it is in a nutshell: In the total US population blacks are in the minority. So it is no surprise if in fact among vegans/vegetarians/rawfooders, that blacks and other 'minority' races are proportionately a smaller number. If the majority of european-caucasians have not made a mad dash to convert to a healthier lifestyle, why be surprised that a significant number of 'minorities' haven't done so, and what's more why ascribe the reason for their not doing so to racism.

So far the support provided on this forum to newbies and others experiencing challenges and general questions have been addressed, explored and at times their inquiries fiercely debated--without the race(s) of the posters needing to come into question. This to me, makes a lot of sense because after all unless I haven't been updated, we are really just individuals part of one race--the human race, with different shades ranging from pale to dark.

Wishing you vibrant health

heh, I only stumbled through some of the added threads

glad you appreciated what I was trying to say (even with all my somewhat virulent sarcasm)

I think your intentions are good, just don't complicate things more then they need be


as for people not having access...that could be true..I try to keep away from the suburbs (purgatory) but was just giving my experience living in a large urban enviornment...where these kinds terms you use are thrown around quite often (justifiably for sure in certain cases) yet I don't think it applies to food/health tools.

I had a guy come up to me on the subway (which seems to happen alot, I must be way friendlier in person...lol) anyway...he's telling me how he works all the dam time, how he has to commute super long distances and work long shifts...then he's telling me how he can't figure out why he does it because he ends up dropping his whole paycheck on junk. he had this huge bag filled with street junk (baseball caps, t-shirts, water bottles, etc..) he told me he dropped $400 dollars (i'm not exaggerating, perhaps he was I dunno, he had ALOT of crap) Again. What is his awaresness, what is his motivation? there certainly is a socioeconimic indoctrination going on, but its not like I could say "you're looking at it all wrong pal".

All I can do it set the best example I can.

everyone I know makes more money then me and works more hours, yet I eat tons of fresh food, eat organic when its convnient and on my route, not based on its price.

this idea that people have $4 dollars a day to spend on food or whatever, I just don't see it, not saying it isn't true, but what I see in the poorest of neighboorhoods: people buy soda, booze, cigs, water, coffee, junk, clothes, more junk, netflix/ video stores/ even a fast food 'meal' runs you like $7 these days. maybe the white folks can afford more $6 dollar rice with scraps of parasictic fish, more soggy wet death carboard etc...I even know vegans who buy avocado sushi (I could probably hold the dry rice and ammount of avo in my hand and you coudn't guess which one it was in) Yet think fruit is expensive

everything that gives me great joy costs precisely 0$ or a subway fare or some late fees from the library. I think alot of people intutively know this, yet they complicate things in their mind and cause great suffering.


glad you like my handle, it is punexpectedly androgenous isn't it? I've always thought my posts have a pretty specific voice, but now its becomming to fun to fess up. or it will just be a big suprise at rawspirtfest.LOL

Sorry...previous post duplicated

Wishing you vibrant health





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2007 05:28AM by Pistachio.

ambulancecars

i was just curious
what your plan step 2 would be after you procure this demographic information

Wow, when I clicked on this topic just now, I didn't expect the word 'race' to trigger so much defensive discussion!

Kelsey - I wonder about your original question too and have some theories on it:

1. Euro-Caucasians have been eating their refined trash food for centuries and in the past 60+ years, it's increasingly filled with toxic chemicals, so they are getting SICK! and need to find a way back to health. Many or most other ethnic groups are still coasting on the more recent change to SWD, but you can see them succumbing to western diseases - lots of stats to prove this.


2. Lots of ethnic groups still hold the 'American Dream' as the ultimate achievement. Part of the American Dream is to be able to do and eat whatever you want -everything for pleasure.
Lots of Euro-Caucs, have already 'achieved' the American Dream and found it to be empty and unsustaining. They might turn to Prozac or they might pursue something more substantial, like a change to a more natural lifestyle.

Sometimes I feel funny that we're eating raw to be more energetic and at the same time we used up all the energy in debating on B12, fruitarian is bad, race, etc...

All the Best,
Wong